 y13:43:43.592 [Test worker] INFO net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Sample [etc/samples/mailboxes/parseexception.mbox]
 |13:43:43.643 [Test worker] INFO net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Sample [etc/samples/mailboxes/contenttype-semis.mbox]
 s13:43:43.643 [Test worker] INFO net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Sample [etc/samples/mailboxes/imagined.mbox]
 w13:43:43.644 [Test worker] INFO net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Sample [etc/samples/mailboxes/received-0xc.mbox]
 w13:43:43.644 [Test worker] INFO net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Sample [etc/samples/mailboxes/subject-0x1f.mbox]
 q13:43:43.646 [Test worker] INFO net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Sample [etc/samples/mailboxes/samples.mbx]
^13:43:43.679 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [91437] bytes
[13:43:43.681 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [S
Date: 
2From: "Foxmail¿ª·¢×é"<foxmail@tencent.com>
@To: "=?gb2312?B?1/C+tLXERm94bWFpbNPDu6c=?=" <user@foxmail.com>
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08W7r8HLtPLTobmmxNyju]
V13:43:43.690 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
Z13:43:43.741 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [43519]
Z13:43:43.741 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [44197]
Z13:43:43.742 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [47918]
^13:43:43.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [43519] bytes
[13:43:43.747 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [S
Date: 
2From: "Foxmail¿ª·¢×é"<foxmail@tencent.com>
@To: "=?gb2312?B?1/C+tLXERm94bWFpbNPDu6c=?=" <user@foxmail.com>
8Subject:=?gb2312?B?u7bTrcq508MgRm94bWFpbCA2LjUgo6E=?= 
1Message-ID: <200906261059103758227@foxmail.com>
'X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 15, 201, 21 [cn]
Mime-Version: 1.0
"Content-Type: multipart/related;
0	boundary="=====002_Dragon172714510278_=====";
	type="multipart/alternative"

.This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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&Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
/	boundary="=====003_Dragon172714510278_====="

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�13:43:43.761 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Fri Sep 14 05:37:44 2001
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*          Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:37:20 -0400
&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
From: <news@america.fm>
To: <news@america.fm>
Reply-To: <news@america.fm>
Errors-To: <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
.Message-Id: <01091401243900.01448@SVList.com>
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&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:29 -0400
From: "nyc" <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience

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8  <http://www.thevoicedepot.com/attack_010913_bn5.jpg> 

AYou are listening to a production by Marc Aflalo from CHOM-FM in
Montreal, Canada.

HI head it this morning and had have permission to share it with others.

#If you do not hear anything, click
A<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3> here to begin streaming.


  _____  

@"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This surely does."; 

Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA

G"This song portrays the emotion and captures the clouds in our minds."

$Jason Richardson, New York City, NY


  _____  

%Please feel free to download it here
F<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3>  and distribute it, or air it
freely.

GComments can be sent to info@aflalo.com. You can also request a higher
quality version.

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J<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This =
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0<P align=3Dcenter>Comments can be sent to <A=20
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V13:43:43.767 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
S13:43:43.790 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
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&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
From: <news@america.fm>
To: <news@america.fm>
Reply-To: <news@america.fm>
Errors-To: <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
.Message-Id: <01091401243900.01448@SVList.com>
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&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:29 -0400
From: "nyc" <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
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AYou are listening to a production by Marc Aflalo from CHOM-FM in
Montreal, Canada.

HI head it this morning and had have permission to share it with others.

#If you do not hear anything, click
A<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3> here to begin streaming.


  _____  

@"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This surely does."; 
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Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA

G"This song portrays the emotion and captures the clouds in our minds."
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$Jason Richardson, New York City, NY


  _____  

%Please feel free to download it here
F<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3>  and distribute it, or air it
freely.

GComments can be sent to info@aflalo.com. You can also request a higher
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
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J<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This =
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	�13:43:43.848 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Fri Sep 14 05:37:44 2001
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	&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
	From: <news@america.fm>
	To: <news@america.fm>
	Reply-To: <news@america.fm>
	Errors-To: <news@america.fm>
	0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
	.Message-Id: <01091401243900.01448@SVList.com>
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	&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:29 -0400
	From: "nyc" <news@america.fm>
	0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
	
	
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	8  <http://www.thevoicedepot.com/attack_010913_bn5.jpg> 
	
	AYou are listening to a production by Marc Aflalo from CHOM-FM in
	Montreal, Canada.
	
	HI head it this morning and had have permission to share it with others.
	
	#If you do not hear anything, click
	A<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3> here to begin streaming.
	
	
  _____  
	
	@"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This surely does."; 
	
	Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA
	
	G"This song portrays the emotion and captures the clouds in our minds."
	
	$Jason Richardson, New York City, NY
	
	
  _____  
	
	%Please feel free to download it here
	F<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3>  and distribute it, or air it
	freely.
	
	GComments can be sent to info@aflalo.com. You can also request a higher
	quality version.
	
	
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	7<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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	A<P align=3Dcenter>You are listening to a production by <B>Marc =
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	F<P align=3Dcenter>I head it this morning and had have permission to =
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	<HR>
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	J<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This =
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	<HR>
	
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	0<P align=3Dcenter>Comments can be sent to <A=20
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	V13:43:43.850 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
	S13:43:43.855 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
	=================
	ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
	5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
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	*          Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:37:20 -0400
	&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
	From: <news@america.fm>
	To: <news@america.fm>
	Reply-To: <news@america.fm>
	Errors-To: <news@america.fm>
	0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
	.Message-Id: <01091401243900.01448@SVList.com>
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	&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:29 -0400
	From: "nyc" <news@america.fm>
	0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
	
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	8  <http://www.thevoicedepot.com/attack_010913_bn5.jpg> 
	
	AYou are listening to a production by Marc Aflalo from CHOM-FM in
	Montreal, Canada.
	
	HI head it this morning and had have permission to share it with others.
	
	#If you do not hear anything, click
	A<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3> here to begin streaming.
	
	
  _____  
	
	@"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This surely does."; 
	
	Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA
	
	G"This song portrays the emotion and captures the clouds in our minds."
	
	$Jason Richardson, New York City, NY
	
	
  _____  
	
	%Please feel free to download it here
	F<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3>  and distribute it, or air it
	freely.
	
	GComments can be sent to info@aflalo.com. You can also request a higher
	quality version.
	
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	J<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This =
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�13:43:43.869 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Fri Sep 14 05:37:44 2001
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*          Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:37:20 -0400
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&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
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From: <news@america.fm>
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To: <news@america.fm>
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0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
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&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:29 -0400
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From: "nyc" <news@america.fm>
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0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
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8  <http://www.thevoicedepot.com/attack_010913_bn5.jpg> 
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AYou are listening to a production by Marc Aflalo from CHOM-FM in
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HI head it this morning and had have permission to share it with others.
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#If you do not hear anything, click
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  _____  
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Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA
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G"This song portrays the emotion and captures the clouds in our minds."
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%Please feel free to download it here
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V13:43:43.871 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
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S13:43:43.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
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=================
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ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
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5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
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GReceived: (qmail 91974 invoked by uid 500); 14 Sep 2001 05:37:43 -0000
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AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
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&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
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From: <news@america.fm>
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0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
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0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
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�13:43:43.945 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Fri Sep 14 05:37:44 2001
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*          Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:37:20 -0400
&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
From: <news@america.fm>
To: <news@america.fm>
Reply-To: <news@america.fm>
Errors-To: <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
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&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:29 -0400
From: "nyc" <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience

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8  <http://www.thevoicedepot.com/attack_010913_bn5.jpg> 
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AYou are listening to a production by Marc Aflalo from CHOM-FM in
Montreal, Canada.

HI head it this morning and had have permission to share it with others.

#If you do not hear anything, click
A<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3> here to begin streaming.


  _____  

@"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This surely does."; 
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Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA

G"This song portrays the emotion and captures the clouds in our minds."
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$Jason Richardson, New York City, NY


  _____  

%Please feel free to download it here
F<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3>  and distribute it, or air it
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
GComments can be sent to info@aflalo.com. You can also request a higher
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
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J<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This =
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0<P align=3Dcenter>Comments can be sent to <A=20
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V13:43:43.949 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
�13:43:44.048 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.config.ConfigurationFactory - Configuring ehcache from ehcache.xml found in the classpath: file:/home/javastream.de/jenkins/jobs/org.mnode.mstor/workspace/build/resources/test/ehcache.xml
�13:43:44.049 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.config.ConfigurationFactory - Configuring ehcache from URL: file:/home/javastream.de/jenkins/jobs/org.mnode.mstor/workspace/build/resources/test/ehcache.xml
s13:43:44.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.config.ConfigurationFactory - Configuring ehcache from InputStream
f13:43:44.185 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.config.DiskStoreConfiguration - Disk Store Path: /tmp
m13:43:44.200 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Creating new CacheManager with default config
^13:43:44.206 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.util.PropertyUtil - propertiesString is null.
�13:43:44.249 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.config.ConfigurationHelper - No CacheManagerEventListenerFactory class specified. Skipping...
t13:43:44.279 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.Cache - No BootstrapCacheLoaderFactory class specified. Skipping...
h13:43:44.280 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.Cache - CacheWriter factory not configured. Skipping...
�13:43:44.281 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.config.ConfigurationHelper - No CacheExceptionHandlerFactory class specified. Skipping...
�13:43:44.362 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.store.MemoryStore - Initialized net.sf.ehcache.store.NotifyingMemoryStore for mstor.mbox.-839906739
a13:43:44.376 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.Cache - Initialised cache: mstor.mbox.-839906739
�13:43:44.377 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.config.ConfigurationHelper - CacheDecoratorFactory not configured for defaultCache. Skipping for 'mstor.mbox.-839906739'.
�13:43:44.379 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:44.384 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
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*          Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:37:20 -0400
&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
From: <news@america.fm>
To: <news@america.fm>
Reply-To: <news@america.fm>
Errors-To: <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
.Message-Id: <01091401243900.01448@SVList.com>
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$X-RCPT-TO: <news@thevoicedepot.com>
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
&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:29 -0400
From: "nyc" <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience


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 
8  <http://www.thevoicedepot.com/attack_010913_bn5.jpg> 

AYou are listening to a production by Marc Aflalo from CHOM-FM in
Montreal, Canada.

HI head it this morning and had have permission to share it with others.

#If you do not hear anything, click
A<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3> here to begin streaming.


  _____  

@"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This surely does."; 

Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA

G"This song portrays the emotion and captures the clouds in our minds."

$Jason Richardson, New York City, NY


  _____  

%Please feel free to download it here
F<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3>  and distribute it, or air it
freely.

GComments can be sent to info@aflalo.com. You can also request a higher
quality version.


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:<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
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7<DIV><FONT face=3DVerdana size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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A<P align=3Dcenter>You are listening to a production by <B>Marc =
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/<B>CHOM-FM</B> in <B>Montreal, Canada</B>.</P>
F<P align=3Dcenter>I head it this morning and had have permission to =
share it with=20
others.</P>
7<P align=3Dcenter><B>If you do not hear anything, <A =
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<HR>

J<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This =
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3<P align=3Dcenter>Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA</P>
K<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"This song portrays the emotion and captures the =
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:<P align=3Dcenter>Jason Richardson, New York City, NY</P>
<HR>

I<P align=3Dcenter><B>Please feel free to <A href=3D"nyct.mp3">download =
it here</A>=20
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0<P align=3Dcenter>Comments can be sent to <A=20
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request a higher=20
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�13:43:44.406 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Fri Sep 14 05:37:44 2001
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*          Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:37:20 -0400
&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
From: <news@america.fm>
To: <news@america.fm>
Reply-To: <news@america.fm>
Errors-To: <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
.Message-Id: <01091401243900.01448@SVList.com>
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&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:29 -0400
From: "nyc" <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience

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8  <http://www.thevoicedepot.com/attack_010913_bn5.jpg> 
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AYou are listening to a production by Marc Aflalo from CHOM-FM in
Montreal, Canada.

HI head it this morning and had have permission to share it with others.

#If you do not hear anything, click
A<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3> here to begin streaming.


  _____  

@"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This surely does."; 

Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA

G"This song portrays the emotion and captures the clouds in our minds."

$Jason Richardson, New York City, NY


  _____  

%Please feel free to download it here
F<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3>  and distribute it, or air it
freely.

GComments can be sent to info@aflalo.com. You can also request a higher
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

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J<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This =
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V13:43:44.439 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
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�13:43:44.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Fri Sep 14 05:37:44 2001
ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
GReceived: (qmail 91974 invoked by uid 500); 14 Sep 2001 05:37:43 -0000
AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
Precedence: bulk
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IReceived: (qmail 91952 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2001 05:37:42 -0000
YReceived: from tomts14.bellnexxia.net (HELO tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net) (209.226.175.35)
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*          Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:37:20 -0400
&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
From: <news@america.fm>
To: <news@america.fm>
Reply-To: <news@america.fm>
Errors-To: <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
.Message-Id: <01091401243900.01448@SVList.com>
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&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:29 -0400
From: "nyc" <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience

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8  <http://www.thevoicedepot.com/attack_010913_bn5.jpg> 

AYou are listening to a production by Marc Aflalo from CHOM-FM in
Montreal, Canada.

HI head it this morning and had have permission to share it with others.

#If you do not hear anything, click
A<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3> here to begin streaming.


  _____  

@"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This surely does."; 

Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA

G"This song portrays the emotion and captures the clouds in our minds."

$Jason Richardson, New York City, NY


  _____  

%Please feel free to download it here
F<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3>  and distribute it, or air it
freely.

GComments can be sent to info@aflalo.com. You can also request a higher
quality version.

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A<P align=3Dcenter>You are listening to a production by <B>Marc =
Aflalo</B> from=20
/<B>CHOM-FM</B> in <B>Montreal, Canada</B>.</P>
F<P align=3Dcenter>I head it this morning and had have permission to =
share it with=20
others.</P>
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href=3D"nyct.mp3">click=20
%here</A> to begin streaming.</B></P>
<HR>

J<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This =
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3<P align=3Dcenter>Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA</P>
K<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"This song portrays the emotion and captures the =
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our minds."</I></B></P>
:<P align=3Dcenter>Jason Richardson, New York City, NY</P>
<HR>

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it here</A>=20
-and distribute it, or air it freely.</B></P>
0<P align=3Dcenter>Comments can be sent to <A=20
Dhref=3D"mailto:info@aflalo.com">info@aflalo.com</A>. You can also =
request a higher=20
#quality version.</P></BODY></HTML>
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V13:43:44.450 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
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�13:43:44.479 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Fri Sep 14 05:37:44 2001
ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-7922-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
GReceived: (qmail 91974 invoked by uid 500); 14 Sep 2001 05:37:43 -0000
AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
Precedence: bulk
"Reply-To: apache-bugdb@apache.org
1list-help: <mailto:apache-bugdb-help@apache.org>
?list-unsubscribe: <mailto:apache-bugdb-unsubscribe@apache.org>
,list-post: <mailto:apache-bugdb@apache.org>
3Delivered-To: mailing list apache-bugdb@apache.org
IReceived: (qmail 91952 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2001 05:37:42 -0000
YReceived: from tomts14.bellnexxia.net (HELO tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net) (209.226.175.35)
?  by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 14 Sep 2001 05:37:42 -0000
4Received: from smtp1.sympatico.ca ([64.229.192.31])
(          by tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net
G          (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with SMTP
W          id <20010914053720.KVQP15892.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@smtp1.sympatico.ca>;
*          Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:37:20 -0400
&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
From: <news@america.fm>
To: <news@america.fm>
Reply-To: <news@america.fm>
Errors-To: <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
.Message-Id: <01091401243900.01448@SVList.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
!Content-Type: Multipart/related;
5  boundary="Boundary-=_pHqghUmeaYlNlfdXfircvsCxgGBw"
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$X-RCPT-TO: <news@thevoicedepot.com>
X-UIDL: 300445174
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
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 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:29 -0400
From: "nyc" <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience


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
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8  <http://www.thevoicedepot.com/attack_010913_bn5.jpg> 

AYou are listening to a production by Marc Aflalo from CHOM-FM in
Montreal, Canada.

HI head it this morning and had have permission to share it with others.

#If you do not hear anything, click
A<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3> here to begin streaming.


  _____  

@"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This surely does."; 

Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA

G"This song portrays the emotion and captures the clouds in our minds."

$Jason Richardson, New York City, NY


  _____  

%Please feel free to download it here
F<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3>  and distribute it, or air it
freely.

GComments can be sent to info@aflalo.com. You can also request a higher
quality version.


,------=_NextPart_001_0051_01C13CBC.00818150
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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A<P align=3Dcenter>You are listening to a production by <B>Marc =
Aflalo</B> from=20
/<B>CHOM-FM</B> in <B>Montreal, Canada</B>.</P>
F<P align=3Dcenter>I head it this morning and had have permission to =
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others.</P>
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J<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This =
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3<P align=3Dcenter>Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA</P>
K<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"This song portrays the emotion and captures the =
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<HR>

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it here</A>=20
-and distribute it, or air it freely.</B></P>
0<P align=3Dcenter>Comments can be sent to <A=20
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V13:43:44.487 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
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5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
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*          Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:37:20 -0400
&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:39 -0400
From: <news@america.fm>
To: <news@america.fm>
Reply-To: <news@america.fm>
Errors-To: <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience
.Message-Id: <01091401243900.01448@SVList.com>
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$X-RCPT-TO: <news@thevoicedepot.com>
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&Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:24:29 -0400
From: "nyc" <news@america.fm>
0Subject: America Attacked- The Audio Experience

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8  <http://www.thevoicedepot.com/attack_010913_bn5.jpg> 

AYou are listening to a production by Marc Aflalo from CHOM-FM in
Montreal, Canada.

HI head it this morning and had have permission to share it with others.

#If you do not hear anything, click
A<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3> here to begin streaming.


  _____  

@"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This surely does."; 

Sally Martin, Pittsburgh, PA

G"This song portrays the emotion and captures the clouds in our minds."

$Jason Richardson, New York City, NY


  _____  

%Please feel free to download it here
F<http://www.thevoicedepot.com/nyct.mp3>  and distribute it, or air it
freely.

GComments can be sent to info@aflalo.com. You can also request a higher
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
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border=3D0></DIV>
A<P align=3Dcenter>You are listening to a production by <B>Marc =
Aflalo</B> from=20
/<B>CHOM-FM</B> in <B>Montreal, Canada</B>.</P>
F<P align=3Dcenter>I head it this morning and had have permission to =
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others.</P>
7<P align=3Dcenter><B>If you do not hear anything, <A =
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<HR>

J<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"Word cannot express the emotion and pain. This =
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K<P align=3Dcenter><B><I>"This song portrays the emotion and captures the =
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:<P align=3Dcenter>Jason Richardson, New York City, NY</P>
<HR>

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0<P align=3Dcenter>Comments can be sent to <A=20
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,--Boundary-=_pHqghUmeaYlNlfdXfircvsCxgGBw--


]
l13:43:44.547 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:44.549 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Renaming [/tmp/mstor_test/testPurge/parseexception.mbox/parseexception.mbox] to [/tmp/parseexception.mbox.1746186224549]
�13:43:44.550 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Renaming [/tmp/parseexception.mbox.tmp] to [/tmp/mstor_test/testPurge/parseexception.mbox/parseexception.mbox]
^13:43:44.555 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [11165] bytes
{13:43:44.555 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From mcleod2@lycos.de  Thu Feb 15 16:11:17 2001
 Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
BMailing-List: contact xalan-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
4Delivered-To: mailing list xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
HReceived: (qmail 1975 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
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From: mcleod2@lycos.de
HReceived: from BriansKiste (pD900CD69.dip.t-dialin.net [217.0.205.105])
=	by lycosmail.unimessage.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 439AA18B
G	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:17 +0100 (MET)
&Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:20:02 +0100
To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
 X-Mailer: Opera 5.02 build 856a
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Mime-Version: 1.0
KContent-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z"
?Message-Id: <20010215161117.439AA18B@lycosmail.unimessage.net>
1X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
!Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="xslbsp2.xsl"
(Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="xslbsp2.xsl"
"Content-Transfer-Encoding: Base64

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V13:43:44.558 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
S13:43:44.561 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
 Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
BMailing-List: contact xalan-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
4Delivered-To: mailing list xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
HReceived: (qmail 1975 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
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A	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:15 +0100
From: mcleod2@lycos.de
HReceived: from BriansKiste (pD900CD69.dip.t-dialin.net [217.0.205.105])
=	by lycosmail.unimessage.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 439AA18B
G	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:17 +0100 (MET)
&Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:20:02 +0100
To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
 X-Mailer: Opera 5.02 build 856a
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Mime-Version: 1.0
KContent-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z"
?Message-Id: <20010215161117.439AA18B@lycosmail.unimessage.net>
1X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
!Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="xslbsp2.xsl"
(Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="xslbsp2.xsl"
"Content-Transfer-Encoding: Base64

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#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
!Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="xmlbsp.xml"
Content-Type: text/xml;
	name="xmlbsp.xml"

-<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1" ?>
6<?xml-stylesheet href="xslbsp.xsl" type="text/xml" ?>

<!DOCTYPE Termine [
*  <!ENTITY  frau      "Julia Mustermann">
"  <!ELEMENT Termine   (Termin+) >
6  <!ELEMENT Termin    ((Gruppe | Person), Bemerkung)>
  <!ATTLIST Termin
#    status    CDATA         "temp"
&    datum     CDATA         #REQUIRED
'    uhrzeit   CDATA         #IMPLIED >
"  <!ELEMENT Gruppe    (Person+) >
"  <!ELEMENT Person    (#PCDATA) >
"  <!ELEMENT Bemerkung (#PCDATA) >
]>


"<!-- Prolog ist hier beendet. -->
-<!-- Jetzt beginnt das Dokument-Element. -->


<Termine>
-  <Termin status="final" datum="30.09.2000">
    <Gruppe>
      <Person>
        Carsten Bormann
      </Person>
      <Person>
        Olaf Bergmann
      </Person>
    </Gruppe>
    <Bemerkung>
$      Besprechung der Diplomarbeit.
    </Bemerkung>
  </Termin>
-  <Termin datum="19.08.2000" uhrzeit="1800">
    <Person>
      &frau; mit Kindern
    </Person>
    <Bemerkung>
      ESSEN GEHEN.
    </Bemerkung>
  </Termin>
</Termine>

%--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z--

-------


^13:43:44.571 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [11165] bytes
{13:43:44.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From mcleod2@lycos.de  Thu Feb 15 16:11:17 2001
 Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
BMailing-List: contact xalan-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
4Delivered-To: mailing list xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
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From: mcleod2@lycos.de
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G	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:17 +0100 (MET)
&Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:20:02 +0100
To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
 X-Mailer: Opera 5.02 build 856a
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Mime-Version: 1.0
KContent-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z"
?Message-Id: <20010215161117.439AA18B@lycosmail.unimessage.net>
1X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
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V13:43:44.576 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
S13:43:44.578 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
 Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
BMailing-List: contact xalan-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
4Delivered-To: mailing list xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
HReceived: (qmail 1975 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
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From: mcleod2@lycos.de
HReceived: from BriansKiste (pD900CD69.dip.t-dialin.net [217.0.205.105])
=	by lycosmail.unimessage.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 439AA18B
G	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:17 +0100 (MET)
&Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:20:02 +0100
To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
 X-Mailer: Opera 5.02 build 856a
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Mime-Version: 1.0
KContent-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z"
?Message-Id: <20010215161117.439AA18B@lycosmail.unimessage.net>
1X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
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#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
!Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="xmlbsp.xml"
Content-Type: text/xml;
	name="xmlbsp.xml"

-<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1" ?>
6<?xml-stylesheet href="xslbsp.xsl" type="text/xml" ?>

<!DOCTYPE Termine [
*  <!ENTITY  frau      "Julia Mustermann">
"  <!ELEMENT Termine   (Termin+) >
6  <!ELEMENT Termin    ((Gruppe | Person), Bemerkung)>
  <!ATTLIST Termin
#    status    CDATA         "temp"
&    datum     CDATA         #REQUIRED
'    uhrzeit   CDATA         #IMPLIED >
"  <!ELEMENT Gruppe    (Person+) >
"  <!ELEMENT Person    (#PCDATA) >
"  <!ELEMENT Bemerkung (#PCDATA) >
]>


"<!-- Prolog ist hier beendet. -->
-<!-- Jetzt beginnt das Dokument-Element. -->


<Termine>
-  <Termin status="final" datum="30.09.2000">
    <Gruppe>
      <Person>
        Carsten Bormann
      </Person>
      <Person>
        Olaf Bergmann
      </Person>
    </Gruppe>
    <Bemerkung>
$      Besprechung der Diplomarbeit.
    </Bemerkung>
  </Termin>
-  <Termin datum="19.08.2000" uhrzeit="1800">
    <Person>
      &frau; mit Kindern
    </Person>
    <Bemerkung>
      ESSEN GEHEN.
    </Bemerkung>
  </Termin>
</Termine>

%--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z--

-------


^13:43:44.585 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [11165] bytes
{13:43:44.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From mcleod2@lycos.de  Thu Feb 15 16:11:17 2001
 Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
BMailing-List: contact xalan-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
4Delivered-To: mailing list xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
HReceived: (qmail 1975 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
4Received: from fmmx01.unimessage.net (212.6.90.137)
>  by h31.sny.collab.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
PReceived: from lycosmail.unimessage.net (lycosmail.unimessage.net [10.10.1.70])
O	by fmmx01.unimessage.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA06620
A	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:15 +0100
From: mcleod2@lycos.de
HReceived: from BriansKiste (pD900CD69.dip.t-dialin.net [217.0.205.105])
=	by lycosmail.unimessage.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 439AA18B
G	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:17 +0100 (MET)
&Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:20:02 +0100
To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
 X-Mailer: Opera 5.02 build 856a
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Mime-Version: 1.0
KContent-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z"
?Message-Id: <20010215161117.439AA18B@lycosmail.unimessage.net>
1X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
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)ZSgpWzNdIiAvPgo8eHNsOmFwcGx5LXRlbXBsYXR]
V13:43:44.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
S13:43:44.588 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
 Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
BMailing-List: contact xalan-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
4Delivered-To: mailing list xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
HReceived: (qmail 1975 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
4Received: from fmmx01.unimessage.net (212.6.90.137)
>  by h31.sny.collab.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
PReceived: from lycosmail.unimessage.net (lycosmail.unimessage.net [10.10.1.70])
O	by fmmx01.unimessage.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA06620
A	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:15 +0100
From: mcleod2@lycos.de
HReceived: from BriansKiste (pD900CD69.dip.t-dialin.net [217.0.205.105])
=	by lycosmail.unimessage.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 439AA18B
G	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:17 +0100 (MET)
&Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:20:02 +0100
To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
 X-Mailer: Opera 5.02 build 856a
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Mime-Version: 1.0
KContent-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z"
?Message-Id: <20010215161117.439AA18B@lycosmail.unimessage.net>
1X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
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#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
!Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="xmlbsp.xml"
Content-Type: text/xml;
	name="xmlbsp.xml"

-<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1" ?>
6<?xml-stylesheet href="xslbsp.xsl" type="text/xml" ?>

<!DOCTYPE Termine [
*  <!ENTITY  frau      "Julia Mustermann">
"  <!ELEMENT Termine   (Termin+) >
6  <!ELEMENT Termin    ((Gruppe | Person), Bemerkung)>
  <!ATTLIST Termin
#    status    CDATA         "temp"
&    datum     CDATA         #REQUIRED
'    uhrzeit   CDATA         #IMPLIED >
"  <!ELEMENT Gruppe    (Person+) >
"  <!ELEMENT Person    (#PCDATA) >
"  <!ELEMENT Bemerkung (#PCDATA) >
]>


"<!-- Prolog ist hier beendet. -->
-<!-- Jetzt beginnt das Dokument-Element. -->


<Termine>
-  <Termin status="final" datum="30.09.2000">
    <Gruppe>
      <Person>
        Carsten Bormann
      </Person>
      <Person>
        Olaf Bergmann
      </Person>
    </Gruppe>
    <Bemerkung>
$      Besprechung der Diplomarbeit.
    </Bemerkung>
  </Termin>
-  <Termin datum="19.08.2000" uhrzeit="1800">
    <Person>
      &frau; mit Kindern
    </Person>
    <Bemerkung>
      ESSEN GEHEN.
    </Bemerkung>
  </Termin>
</Termine>

%--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z--

-------


^13:43:44.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [11165] bytes
{13:43:44.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From mcleod2@lycos.de  Thu Feb 15 16:11:17 2001
 Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
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To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
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0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
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V13:43:44.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
�13:43:44.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:44.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.store.MemoryStore - Initialized net.sf.ehcache.store.NotifyingMemoryStore for mstor.mbox.1240183755
a13:43:44.644 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.Cache - Initialised cache: mstor.mbox.1240183755
�13:43:44.644 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.config.ConfigurationHelper - CacheDecoratorFactory not configured for defaultCache. Skipping for 'mstor.mbox.1240183755'.
�13:43:44.644 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:44.646 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
 Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
BMailing-List: contact xalan-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
4Delivered-To: mailing list xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
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From: mcleod2@lycos.de
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=	by lycosmail.unimessage.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 439AA18B
G	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:17 +0100 (MET)
&Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:20:02 +0100
To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
 X-Mailer: Opera 5.02 build 856a
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Mime-Version: 1.0
KContent-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z"
?Message-Id: <20010215161117.439AA18B@lycosmail.unimessage.net>
1X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
!Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="xslbsp2.xsl"
(Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="xslbsp2.xsl"
"Content-Transfer-Encoding: Base64

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#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
!Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="xmlbsp.xml"
Content-Type: text/xml;
	name="xmlbsp.xml"

-<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1" ?>
6<?xml-stylesheet href="xslbsp.xsl" type="text/xml" ?>

<!DOCTYPE Termine [
*  <!ENTITY  frau      "Julia Mustermann">
"  <!ELEMENT Termine   (Termin+) >
6  <!ELEMENT Termin    ((Gruppe | Person), Bemerkung)>
  <!ATTLIST Termin
#    status    CDATA         "temp"
&    datum     CDATA         #REQUIRED
'    uhrzeit   CDATA         #IMPLIED >
"  <!ELEMENT Gruppe    (Person+) >
"  <!ELEMENT Person    (#PCDATA) >
"  <!ELEMENT Bemerkung (#PCDATA) >
]>


"<!-- Prolog ist hier beendet. -->
-<!-- Jetzt beginnt das Dokument-Element. -->


<Termine>
-  <Termin status="final" datum="30.09.2000">
    <Gruppe>
      <Person>
        Carsten Bormann
      </Person>
      <Person>
        Olaf Bergmann
      </Person>
    </Gruppe>
    <Bemerkung>
$      Besprechung der Diplomarbeit.
    </Bemerkung>
  </Termin>
-  <Termin datum="19.08.2000" uhrzeit="1800">
    <Person>
      &frau; mit Kindern
    </Person>
    <Bemerkung>
      ESSEN GEHEN.
    </Bemerkung>
  </Termin>
</Termine>

%--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z--

-------


^13:43:44.650 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [11165] bytes
{13:43:44.651 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From mcleod2@lycos.de  Thu Feb 15 16:11:17 2001
 Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
BMailing-List: contact xalan-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
4Delivered-To: mailing list xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
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From: mcleod2@lycos.de
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=	by lycosmail.unimessage.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 439AA18B
G	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:17 +0100 (MET)
&Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:20:02 +0100
To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
 X-Mailer: Opera 5.02 build 856a
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Mime-Version: 1.0
KContent-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z"
?Message-Id: <20010215161117.439AA18B@lycosmail.unimessage.net>
1X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
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V13:43:44.651 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
^13:43:44.660 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [11165] bytes
{13:43:44.660 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From mcleod2@lycos.de  Thu Feb 15 16:11:17 2001
 Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
BMailing-List: contact xalan-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
4Delivered-To: mailing list xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
HReceived: (qmail 1975 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
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From: mcleod2@lycos.de
HReceived: from BriansKiste (pD900CD69.dip.t-dialin.net [217.0.205.105])
=	by lycosmail.unimessage.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 439AA18B
G	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:17 +0100 (MET)
&Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:20:02 +0100
To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
 X-Mailer: Opera 5.02 build 856a
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Mime-Version: 1.0
KContent-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z"
?Message-Id: <20010215161117.439AA18B@lycosmail.unimessage.net>
1X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
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V13:43:44.661 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
^13:43:44.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [11165] bytes
{13:43:44.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From mcleod2@lycos.de  Thu Feb 15 16:11:17 2001
 Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
BMailing-List: contact xalan-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
4Delivered-To: mailing list xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
HReceived: (qmail 1975 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
4Received: from fmmx01.unimessage.net (212.6.90.137)
>  by h31.sny.collab.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
PReceived: from lycosmail.unimessage.net (lycosmail.unimessage.net [10.10.1.70])
O	by fmmx01.unimessage.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA06620
A	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:15 +0100
From: mcleod2@lycos.de
HReceived: from BriansKiste (pD900CD69.dip.t-dialin.net [217.0.205.105])
=	by lycosmail.unimessage.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 439AA18B
G	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:17 +0100 (MET)
&Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:20:02 +0100
To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
 X-Mailer: Opera 5.02 build 856a
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Mime-Version: 1.0
KContent-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z"
?Message-Id: <20010215161117.439AA18B@lycosmail.unimessage.net>
1X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
!Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="xslbsp2.xsl"
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V13:43:44.667 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
}13:43:44.669 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [Return-Path: <mcleod2@lycos.de>
BMailing-List: contact xalan-dev-help@xml.apache.org; run by ezmlm
4Delivered-To: mailing list xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
HReceived: (qmail 1975 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
4Received: from fmmx01.unimessage.net (212.6.90.137)
>  by h31.sny.collab.net with SMTP; 15 Feb 2001 16:11:17 -0000
PReceived: from lycosmail.unimessage.net (lycosmail.unimessage.net [10.10.1.70])
O	by fmmx01.unimessage.net (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA06620
A	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:15 +0100
From: mcleod2@lycos.de
HReceived: from BriansKiste (pD900CD69.dip.t-dialin.net [217.0.205.105])
=	by lycosmail.unimessage.net (Postfix) with SMTP id 439AA18B
G	for <xalan-dev@xml.apache.org>; Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:11:17 +0100 (MET)
&Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:20:02 +0100
To: xalan-dev@xml.apache.org
1Subject: Major problems with the node() function
 X-Mailer: Opera 5.02 build 856a
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Mime-Version: 1.0
KContent-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z"
?Message-Id: <20010215161117.439AA18B@lycosmail.unimessage.net>
1X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
0Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1";
,Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable

Hey,

KI am working on project, where we automatically generate an XSLT instance.
NBut ervery time I want to transform a specific XML Instace with the generated
EXSLT instance I get the following error message on the commans line:

@>xalan example\xmlbsp.xml example\xslbsp2.xsl example\first.xml
q=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
MParse of file:R:/Diplom/Source/ixx/example/xslbsp2.xsl took 930 milliseconds
V=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Parsing example\xmlbsp.xml =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
2Parse of example\xmlbsp.xml took 220 milliseconds
X=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Transforming...
Error! null
Xalan: was not successful.
XSLProcessor: done

TThere is always a null pointer exception that is caught from xalan, but there is no
for an exception.

PI am using Xalan 1.1 because Xalan 2 told me at the command line that SAX does 
not support Namespace ?!?!

/So I hope someone could help out of this mess.

[The two files are attached, so you could use them to find the problem. If Xalan 1.1 is not
_supported any longer please verify the files with Xalan 2 and give me a hint on how to use it.

best regards Brian H=FCttner

#--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z
!Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="xslbsp2.xsl"
(Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
	name="xslbsp2.xsl"
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-<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1" ?>
6<?xml-stylesheet href="xslbsp.xsl" type="text/xml" ?>

<!DOCTYPE Termine [
*  <!ENTITY  frau      "Julia Mustermann">
"  <!ELEMENT Termine   (Termin+) >
6  <!ELEMENT Termin    ((Gruppe | Person), Bemerkung)>
  <!ATTLIST Termin
#    status    CDATA         "temp"
&    datum     CDATA         #REQUIRED
'    uhrzeit   CDATA         #IMPLIED >
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"  <!ELEMENT Person    (#PCDATA) >
"  <!ELEMENT Bemerkung (#PCDATA) >
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        Carsten Bormann
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      <Person>
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    </Bemerkung>
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    <Person>
      &frau; mit Kindern
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      ESSEN GEHEN.
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
%--_OPERAB__-YKQeHEQPcI9fn3DaQmwl/z--

-------

]
l13:43:44.673 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:44.673 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Renaming [/tmp/mstor_test/testPurge/contenttype-semis.mbox/contenttype-semis.mbox] to [/tmp/contenttype-semis.mbox.1746186224673]
�13:43:44.673 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Renaming [/tmp/contenttype-semis.mbox.tmp] to [/tmp/mstor_test/testPurge/contenttype-semis.mbox/contenttype-semis.mbox]
_13:43:44.740 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [389462] bytes
�13:43:44.741 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Thu Apr 24 16:07:26 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker

7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 16:40:48 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:40:48 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] List with mixed styles
:In-Reply-To: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
9References: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
/Message-ID: <3EA80580.3070503@cookiecrook.com>


K> What you want to do is create a div for the sub-items and add styles for
7> that specific div to your CSS. (Hat tip: Eric Meyer)
> 
> So, for example:
> <div id="menu">
> ITEM ONE
> <div class="subitems">
> Sub-item 1
> Sub-item 2
	> </div>
	> </div>

;The nesting idea is correct, but keep it a list, not divs.

<ul class="menu">
   <li>Item 1

     <ul>
       <li>Sub-item 1</li>
       <li>Sub-item 2</li>
     </ul>
	   </li>
   <li>Item 2</li>
   <li>Item 3</li>
</ul>

"ul.menu { /* top menu styles */ }
*ul.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
(ul.menu li ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
0ul.menu li ul li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

1Or, you could save a few bytes on the selectors.

 .menu { /* top menu styles */ }
(.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
#.menu ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
+.menu li li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

Good luck,
James Craig


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/

5From BradyG at BIDWELL.com  Thu Apr 24 16:49:36 2003
-From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
;for one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not ]
V13:43:44.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
Y13:43:44.747 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [4610]
Y13:43:44.747 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [5847]
Z13:43:44.747 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11042]
Z13:43:44.747 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11694]
Z13:43:44.747 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14322]
Z13:43:44.748 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14813]
Z13:43:44.748 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [17185]
Z13:43:44.748 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [22619]
Z13:43:44.748 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [23777]
Z13:43:44.749 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [24935]
Z13:43:44.749 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [25600]
Z13:43:44.749 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [27077]
Z13:43:44.749 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [28048]
Z13:43:44.749 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [31103]
Z13:43:44.751 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [32322]
Z13:43:44.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33207]
Z13:43:44.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33881]
Z13:43:44.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [36426]
Z13:43:44.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [38906]
Z13:43:44.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [39611]
Z13:43:44.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40362]
Z13:43:44.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40854]
Z13:43:44.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [42307]
Z13:43:44.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [44381]
Z13:43:44.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [45120]
Z13:43:44.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [46626]
Z13:43:44.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [47299]
Z13:43:44.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [48023]
Z13:43:44.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [49141]
Z13:43:44.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [50265]
Z13:43:44.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [53644]
Z13:43:44.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [54261]
Z13:43:44.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [55133]
Z13:43:44.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [56603]
Z13:43:44.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [57466]
Z13:43:44.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [58820]
Z13:43:44.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [60995]
Z13:43:44.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [62757]
Z13:43:44.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [63497]
Z13:43:44.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [65951]
Z13:43:44.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [66697]
Z13:43:44.756 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [67645]
Z13:43:44.756 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [68938]
Z13:43:44.756 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [70058]
Z13:43:44.756 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [71395]
Z13:43:44.757 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [73633]
Z13:43:44.757 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [76326]
Z13:43:44.757 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [77209]
Z13:43:44.758 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [78431]
Z13:43:44.759 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [82607]
Z13:43:44.759 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [83312]
Z13:43:44.759 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [85154]
Z13:43:44.760 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [86345]
Z13:43:44.760 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [88347]
Z13:43:44.760 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [89056]
Z13:43:44.760 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [91025]
Z13:43:44.761 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [92518]
Z13:43:44.761 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [94760]
Z13:43:44.761 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [95686]
Z13:43:44.761 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [97016]
Z13:43:44.761 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [98916]
[13:43:44.761 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [100703]
[13:43:44.761 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [101981]
[13:43:44.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [104651]
[13:43:44.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [105522]
[13:43:44.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [108140]
[13:43:44.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [109030]
[13:43:44.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [110577]
[13:43:44.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [111713]
[13:43:44.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [112218]
[13:43:44.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [115007]
[13:43:44.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [117166]
[13:43:44.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [120070]
[13:43:44.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [121361]
[13:43:44.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [122997]
[13:43:44.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [123856]
[13:43:44.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [125795]
[13:43:44.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [128549]
[13:43:44.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129484]
[13:43:44.766 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129922]
[13:43:44.766 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [131612]
[13:43:44.766 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [132516]
[13:43:44.766 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [133642]
[13:43:44.766 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [134621]
[13:43:44.766 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [137652]
[13:43:44.766 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [138236]
[13:43:44.767 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [142465]
[13:43:44.767 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [143647]
[13:43:44.767 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [144733]
[13:43:44.767 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [145232]
[13:43:44.768 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [149409]
[13:43:44.768 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [151060]
[13:43:44.768 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153155]
[13:43:44.768 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153674]
[13:43:44.769 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [154221]
[13:43:44.769 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [155386]
[13:43:44.769 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [156187]
[13:43:44.769 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [158083]
[13:43:44.770 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [160013]
[13:43:44.770 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [162156]
[13:43:44.770 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [163096]
[13:43:44.770 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [165147]
[13:43:44.771 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [166475]
[13:43:44.771 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [167195]
[13:43:44.771 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [168631]
[13:43:44.771 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [170067]
[13:43:44.771 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [171200]
[13:43:44.771 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [172161]
[13:43:44.771 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [173044]
[13:43:44.771 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [175327]
[13:43:44.771 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [176650]
[13:43:44.772 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [182034]
[13:43:44.772 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [184318]
[13:43:44.772 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [185360]
[13:43:44.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [188868]
[13:43:44.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [189349]
[13:43:44.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [191813]
[13:43:44.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [192592]
[13:43:44.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [196228]
[13:43:44.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [201718]
[13:43:44.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [202888]
[13:43:44.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [205824]
[13:43:44.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [206835]
[13:43:44.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [209112]
[13:43:44.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [213575]
[13:43:44.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [214632]
[13:43:44.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [217173]
[13:43:44.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [218712]
[13:43:44.777 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [222713]
[13:43:44.777 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [225406]
[13:43:44.778 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [238231]
[13:43:44.778 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [240183]
[13:43:44.778 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [241335]
[13:43:44.779 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [242213]
[13:43:44.779 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [243658]
[13:43:44.779 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [247376]
[13:43:44.780 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [250226]
[13:43:44.780 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [251222]
[13:43:44.780 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [252782]
[13:43:44.780 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [253582]
[13:43:44.780 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [255113]
[13:43:44.780 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [257141]
[13:43:44.780 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [258729]
[13:43:44.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [260173]
[13:43:44.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [263021]
[13:43:44.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [266112]
[13:43:44.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [267943]
[13:43:44.782 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [268773]
[13:43:44.782 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [269368]
[13:43:44.782 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [270287]
[13:43:44.782 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [271965]
[13:43:44.783 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [272918]
[13:43:44.783 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [274357]
[13:43:44.783 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [275702]
[13:43:44.783 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [276626]
[13:43:44.783 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [278211]
[13:43:44.784 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [279791]
[13:43:44.784 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [280557]
[13:43:44.784 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281248]
[13:43:44.784 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281892]
[13:43:44.784 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [284485]
[13:43:44.784 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [285508]
[13:43:44.785 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [287192]
[13:43:44.785 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [289194]
[13:43:44.785 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290229]
[13:43:44.785 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290940]
[13:43:44.785 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [291497]
[13:43:44.785 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292008]
[13:43:44.785 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292955]
[13:43:44.785 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [295681]
[13:43:44.785 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [296401]
[13:43:44.785 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [297412]
[13:43:44.786 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [299878]
[13:43:44.786 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [302741]
[13:43:44.786 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [304075]
[13:43:44.786 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [305062]
[13:43:44.786 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [306733]
[13:43:44.839 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [307416]
[13:43:44.840 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [310045]
[13:43:44.840 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [311566]
[13:43:44.841 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [312707]
[13:43:44.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [314900]
[13:43:44.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [316029]
[13:43:44.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [318083]
[13:43:44.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [321443]
[13:43:44.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [323696]
[13:43:44.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [324549]
[13:43:44.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [325233]
[13:43:44.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [326418]
[13:43:44.844 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [328215]
[13:43:44.844 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [329589]
[13:43:44.844 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [331924]
[13:43:44.844 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [333708]
[13:43:44.844 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [334941]
[13:43:44.845 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [335517]
[13:43:44.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [337115]
[13:43:44.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [339999]
[13:43:44.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [344275]
[13:43:44.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [345199]
[13:43:44.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [348883]
[13:43:44.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [349908]
[13:43:44.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [354329]
[13:43:44.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [355908]
[13:43:44.848 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359330]
[13:43:44.848 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359935]
[13:43:44.848 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [361358]
[13:43:44.848 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [363720]
[13:43:44.848 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364142]
[13:43:44.848 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364749]
[13:43:44.848 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [366632]
[13:43:44.848 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [367896]
[13:43:44.848 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [368358]
[13:43:44.849 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [369601]
[13:43:44.849 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [370475]
[13:43:44.849 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [371432]
[13:43:44.849 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374211]
[13:43:44.850 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374625]
[13:43:44.850 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [378695]
[13:43:44.850 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [381979]
[13:43:44.851 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [384057]
[13:43:44.851 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [385721]
[13:43:44.851 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [387022]
S13:43:44.851 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker
S13:43:44.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [1]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:40:48 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] List with mixed styles
:In-Reply-To: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
9References: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
/Message-ID: <3EA80580.3070503@cookiecrook.com>


K> What you want to do is create a div for the sub-items and add styles for
7> that specific div to your CSS. (Hat tip: Eric Meyer)
> 
> So, for example:
> <div id="menu">
> ITEM ONE
> <div class="subitems">
> Sub-item 1
> Sub-item 2
	> </div>
	> </div>

;The nesting idea is correct, but keep it a list, not divs.

<ul class="menu">
   <li>Item 1

     <ul>
       <li>Sub-item 1</li>
       <li>Sub-item 2</li>
     </ul>
	   </li>
   <li>Item 2</li>
   <li>Item 3</li>
</ul>

"ul.menu { /* top menu styles */ }
*ul.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
(ul.menu li ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
0ul.menu li ul li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

1Or, you could save a few bytes on the selectors.

 .menu { /* top menu styles */ }
(.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
#.menu ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
+.menu li li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

Good luck,
James Craig


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
S13:43:44.856 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [2]
=================
-From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
Ifor one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not recommended for
Iothers (@page is useless for continuous media, pixels can't be used with
tty).

>@media was designed specifically for the purpose of declaring
Emedia-specific rules in a style sheet targetting more than one media
F(e.g., "all"). Why wouldn't you use it for that purpose? (OK, there's
poor support, but...)

=> Since your "ideal" set includes "handheld", and almost all
F> new devices fall into this category, you're not really avoiding the
> problem! :-)=20

DI only recommended using handheld if the /only/ styles declared are
Hthings like font and color. Handhelds have abysmal positioning support,
Hworse than WebTV (see below). If, however, you wanted to declare screen
6and handheld together, @media is the perfect tool.=20

=> Web of real CSS content to deal with. New devices are more
>> likely to be better at CSS since they have to work with new
=> Web content. And if the UA is compliant, then pages should

 Yes, but they aren't compliant:
("CSS2 Support in PDA/Handheld Browsers"
H<http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/handheldbrowsercsssupport.html>

@Thanks for making me think through all these media issues, Ian.

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
:From bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Apr 24 17:10:06 2003
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:10:06 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] smaller checkboxes
7References: <1824277687.20030423143018@balance.com.au>
P	<3EA71397.3080403@cookiecrook.com> <00be01c309ff$25f59db0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304231944540.19929-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
8Message-ID: <000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

----- Original Message -----
#From: "Ian Hickson" <ian@hixie.ch>
J<<Unfortunately that won't work in any standard-compliant UA, because the
KWingdings font doesn't have a UNICODE encoding, and so compliant UAs won't
Fuse it to render characters (since the font claims to not support any
EUNICODE characters, and the HTML and CSS specs say that the document
character set is UNICODE).

KTo make it work in any compliant UA, use the UNICODE checkmark characters,
Ge.g. U+2610 and U+2611 (entities &#x2610; and &#x2611;, which, if your
:e-mail client is working right, look like ☐ and ☑).>>
&- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

KWell, happily in respect to font substitution, Mozilla, Netscape 6.1+, and
IE
&are not standards-compliant browsers.

CI have tried UNICODE solutions and they always end up causing more
Cproblems in more situations than the easier and more common method
Gof font substitution. At least in the Windows world, I see nothing but
.problems in implementing Unicode equivalents.

BDo you have a link to some example where checkboxes (or something
;similar) have been done using standards for glyph display?

Brett




S13:43:44.860 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [3]
=================
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:24:25 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
8Message-ID: <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

=| I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
2| http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html
L| Explorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes
a
D| few problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.


HI feel like I'm getting more for my browser money when I click on those

big ones!

Brett
S13:43:44.860 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [4]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:25:06 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
.In-Reply-To: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
" <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>
3Message-ID: <p05210605bacdba15ac2a@[152.3.174.98]>

N>On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
>#
K># In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
M># relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
K># the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
L># changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
K># flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
;># page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.
>
F>I was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my
I>layout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So,
J>unless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do,
#>I'll have to abandon these plans.

FI haven't checked out this solution, so take it with a grain of salt:

GAbsolute positioning shouldn't affect the fluidity of your layout, if 
Cyou do it correctly.  If you absolutely position something, it is 
Dpositioned with respect to it's containing block.  That containing 
Cblock is defined to be the nearest ancestor with a position other 
Gthan "static".  Since "static" is also the default position for every 
Aelement, you would therefore need to position the element which 
Econtains the hidden/invisible content in question - in other words, 
Gposition the list item.  Try "relative" on the li, then "absolute" on 
=the paragraph and see if that does what you are looking for.

AIncidentally, to be a bit more semantically correct, you should 
Bactually make the invisible/hidden element a div , rather than a 
Gparagraph (positioned as explained).  Each verse could then be marked 
<up as a paragraph, with no additional positioning required.

-- 

-Adam Kuehn
3From steve at mrclay.org  Thu Apr 24 17:44:40 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:44:40 -0400
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
>In-Reply-To: <3CD82BA2-764B-11D7-9DBB-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
=References: <3CD82BA2-764B-11D7-9DBB-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
5Message-ID: <198361053093.20030424124440@mrclay.org>

:Thursday, April 24, 2003, 7:52:34 AM, Arlen Walker wrote:
AW> Margins also do *not* add;

2Vertically, but they don't collapse horizontally.

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
S13:43:44.860 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [5]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:43:50 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
7Message-ID: <004801c30a80$af81d900$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Saila, Craig :
>
B> Thanks for making me think through all these media issues, Ian.

DAnd it's been a good conversation to follow along with, it's got me

thinking.
--Josh

S13:43:44.861 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [6]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
>
> Steve Thomas wrote:
,>> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>>
?>>     <link rel="stylesheet" href="site.css" type="text/css">
>
K> The only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
I> so /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
	> stuff.

GThat's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has delegated
Gauthority over the "media" attribute to the CSS working group, who has
(decided to change the default to "all".

JUnfortunately I can't find a public reference to this decision. I'll look
	into it.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
3From steve at mrclay.org  Thu Apr 24 18:40:08 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:40:08 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
4Message-ID: <56364380796.20030424134008@mrclay.org>

1Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
CS> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
5S> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".

?This is a good way to stop using another purely presentational
Gelement.  You might also want to specify font-size:0; height:0 just to
<be sure the space within doesn't give you a 1em tall block.

DThere is a small catch in this display:block method, though: Inline
Gelements, such as A, are not supposed to contain blocks (as we've told
Espan to render), so, even though it's valid HTML/CSS, there could be
 unexpected behavior/rendering. 

Another technique would be:

span {
>   white-space:pre-line; /* gets rid of the space (CSS2.1) */
}
span:after {
4   content:"\A";         /* generated line-break */
}

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
S13:43:44.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [7]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] smaller checkboxes
9In-Reply-To: <000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
7References: <1824277687.20030423143018@balance.com.au>
$	<3EA71397.3080403@cookiecrook.com>
-	<00be01c309ff$25f59db0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304231944540.19929-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
-	<000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241008150.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Brett Merkey wrote:
>
I> Well, happily in respect to font substitution, Mozilla, Netscape 6.1+,
/> and IE are not standards-compliant browsers.

@I believe recent Mozilla builds have been fixed in this regard.


E> I have tried UNICODE solutions and they always end up causing more
H> problems in more situations than the easier and more common method of
F> font substitution. At least in the Windows world, I see nothing but
0> problems in implementing Unicode equivalents.

JUnfortunately, we're not in a Windows world. Millions of people use other
operating systems.


D> Do you have a link to some example where checkboxes (or something
=> similar) have been done using standards for glyph display?

This works in Mozilla:

@   http://www.damowmow.com/playground/demos/checkboxes/001.html

KUnfortunately it doesn't work in WinIE6, due to its rather abysmal UNICODE
Jsupport. It is sad that the most popular UA is so bad at basic standards.
DIt was the same back in the days of Netscape 4... Maybe having poor
7support for the specs is the key to being popular? ;-)

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 18:46:03 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:46:03 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
?> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has
<> delegated authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS
A> working group, who has decided to change the default to "all".

-Well, that would make *a lot* more sense!=20

IThere does seems to be an inconsistency, given @import defaults to "all"
and this reference:
<<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/styles.html#h-14.4.1>
Bimplies it should default to "all" and apparently the DTD doesn't
;specify any default media-type, so "all" would make sense.

9Ain't it great when even the "standards" are consistent!

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
/From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Apr 24 18:49:31 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:49:31 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
9In-Reply-To: <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
- <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>


=> I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
I> http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html Explorer renders these
I> as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a few problems with
2> the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

KActually the reason Mozilla stops styling the checkboxes in strict mode is
Fthat the checkboxes have classes that do not match the classes in the
Kstylesheet. In quirks mode, Mozilla is ignoring the error and treating the
Iclasses as case insensitive, but in strict mode it does the right thing.

AIf you change the classes to lowercase throughout it works fine.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
<From contact at lukeredpath.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 19:08:38 2003
2From: contact at lukeredpath.co.uk (Luke Redpath)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:08:38 +0100
.Subject: [css-d] Cross-Browser Template Check
EMessage-ID: <ENEMIKFCPDMDJCEEJFPPOEKHCGAA.contact@lukeredpath.co.uk>

Hi,

<I'm working on a template for a redesign of a personal site
(www.sonicdeath.co.uk).

The template is here:

8http://testpad.sonicdeath.co.uk/sonicdeath_template.htm

/And a jpg of what it should look like is here:

8http://testpad.sonicdeath.co.uk/sonicdeath_template.jpg

ISo far it works in NS7, IE6, Opera 7, Moz 1.1/1.3 on Windows. It doesn't
Mwork in Opera 5 but that is fine with me because I would expect the majority
Dof Opera users (and we are talking about the majority of an extreme
Iminority) to have the latest version. I've not implemented any box model
Khacks yet either so I'm not bothered about what it looks like in IE 5.x at
this point in time.

HWhat I would like to know is what it looks like in any other browsers I
Ghaven't mentioned, particularly IE 5.2, Camino and Mozilla on the Mac.

MI need to tidy the code up a bit, but that said, it still validates as XHTML
'1.0 strict and the CSS also validates.

Cheers,

Luke Redpath
--
www.sonicdeath.co.uk/weblog
C"Celebrity Squares" - giving the web a CSS makeover - coming soon!

S13:43:44.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [8]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:10:50 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3References: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
%Message-ID: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>

>
>
E> Here's my tip: create a <span> with a single space in it, like so:
B> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
4> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".
K> Now, without a stylesheet, you'll get the full link on one line - with a
I> space in the middle - but, in the styled version, the span will go on 
> to a
H> new line, but not actually show anything as there's only white-space 
	> in it,
> so it collapses.
-> There you have it - a CSS-only line break.
>
Yow!
-I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.

AWhy is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't

<p>
123 Trogdor St.<br />
Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
</p>

better than
p.address {margin: 0;}
'<p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
2<p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

besos
Miriam

-- 
http://www.surebluestudios.com

S13:43:44.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [9]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:28:20 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3References: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
'Message-ID: <3EA82CC4.7030406@f2o.org>

>
E> Here's my tip: create a <span> with a single space in it, like so:
B> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
4> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".
K> Now, without a stylesheet, you'll get the full link on one line - with a
I> space in the middle - but, in the styled version, the span will go on 
> to a
H> new line, but not actually show anything as there's only white-space 
	> in it,
?> so it collapses. There you have it - a CSS-only line break. 


Yow!
-I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.

AWhy is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't

<p>
123 Trogdor St.<br />
Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
</p>

better than
p.address {margin: 0;}
'<p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
2<p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

besos
Miriam

-- 
http://www.surebluestudios.com


T13:43:44.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [10]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:28:53 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
&In-Reply-To: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
'Message-ID: <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>

> <p>
> 123 Trogdor St.<br />
> Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
> </p>

.I suppose one could do similar with a list...
<ul>
<li>123 Trogdor St.</li>
<li>Strongbadia, Wherever</li>
</ul>

?but that's not really a list, is it, and is therefore just as 
&semantically meaningless as a <br />?
Hrrm.

besos
Miriam


--
http://www.surebluestudios.com
T13:43:44.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [11]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:30:47 -0400
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
7Message-ID: <005301c30a8f$a31f3b80$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

GIf this is something that everyone knows about, forgive me for somehow
missing it somewhere!

CFor those redirecting non-compliant browsers via sniff or the cute
G"ahem" class that's revealed when the stylesheet isn't loaded... Where
Bare you going to send your non-compliant users now?  If anywhere?

C>From the page I always point to: http://webstandards.org/upgrade/

H"Note to site builders: The WaSP Browser Upgrade Campaign has come to a
Dclose. As such we ask that you discontinue your use of this upgrade
Hmessage and visit the Beyond the Browser Upgrade Campaign page to learn
about what to do instead."

:(

@This isn't old news is it? (I'll be really red-faced if it is).

ISo is there still a need to re-direct your non-compliant visitors, or do
Fyou agree with the sentiments about it just being an easy out for not
=testing our pages for some browsers like NN4 as expressed at
,http://webstandards.org/act/campaign/buc/ ?

FI personally, still see the need to redirect non-compliant users to a
Hpage that tells them more information, like where to obtain an upgrade,
Fwhy they were redirected (or why they were provided the link) and the
like.  Thoughts?

--Josh

T13:43:44.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [12]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:33:01 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA82DDD.2080805@cookiecrook.com>


DI admit I haven't been paying as close attention to this thread as 
Ipossible, but what do you guys think of adding @media rules? Would this 
work?

6<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="all" />

DThen the stylesheet could include general styles still hidden from 
%Netscape 4, immediately followed by:

@media screen {
   @import "screen.css";
}
@media print {
   @import "print.css";
}

@Perhaps there are some bugs associated with this approach, too?

Just curious.
James

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:44.866 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [13]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:43:05 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241135500.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>


)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
> Ian Hickson wrote:
@>> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has
=>> delegated authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS
B>> working group, who has decided to change the default to "all".
>
,> Well, that would make *a lot* more sense!

GHeh. I've reminded the relevant person to add this to the HTML errata.


?> Ain't it great when even the "standards" are [in]consistent!

KThe people who write the browsers are the same as the people who write the
7specs... it's to be expected that both are flawed. ;-)

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
/From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Apr 24 20:02:24 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
&In-Reply-To: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Miriam Frost wrote:
>
C> Why is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't
>
> <p>
> 123 Trogdor St.<br />
> Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
> </p>
>
> better than
> p.address {margin: 0;}
)> <p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
4> <p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

Yes, it is. Even better is:

   <address>
   123 Trogdor St.<br>
   Strongbadia, Wherever<br>
   </address>

<<br> is only wrong when used to separate paragraphs, as in:

   Foo Bar.<br>
   <br>
   Baz.<br>
   <br>

...which would be better as:

   <p> Foo Bar. </p>
   <p> Baz. </p>

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
1From miriam at f2o.org  Thu Apr 24 20:04:35 2003
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:04:35 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EA83543.9040605@f2o.org>

>
>
>   <address>
>   123 Trogdor St.<br>
>   Strongbadia, Wherever<br>
>   </address>
>
D'oh!
JI have cause to use <address> so infrequently that it completely slipped 
	my mind.
%Off to wash the egg from my face....

besos
Miriam
T13:43:44.866 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [14]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:12:29 -0500
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
-	<002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>


=>>I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
I>>http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html Explorer renders these
I>>as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a few problems with
2>>the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.
> 
B>If you change the classes to lowercase throughout it works fine.

GI can get the input's clickable area to enlarge in Mozilla and Opera, 
Abut not the actual visable representation like in IE. Is this a 
Fpreference setting or perhaps related to the XP native form elements?

Here's a screen shot.
@http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif

GOpera acts about the same except vertically aligned middle instead of 
bottom.

James


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:44.866 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [15]
=================
1From: lists at thinkbigideas.com (Anthony Baker)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 02:24:29 -0700
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
8In-Reply-To: <005301c30a8f$a31f3b80$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
4Message-ID: <001601c30a43$4e8a29f0$210110ac@BigGuy>



H| I personally, still see the need to redirect non-compliant users to a
?| page that tells them more information, like where to obtain 
| an upgrade,
H| why they were redirected (or why they were provided the link) and the
| like.  Thoughts?
| 
	| --Josh



DMake one of your own. Copy the content, create an upgrade page with
Ayour design, paste the content in. I did something similar on an
earlier site myself. 

DThat, or, someone could create another version of the page and have
Ait hosted somewhere, allowing folks to point to it. A grassroots
upgrade effort, as it were.

	/Anthony
T13:43:44.866 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [16]
=================
,From: samuel at latchman.org (Sam Latchman)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:30:20 +0200
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
(In-Reply-To: <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
	<3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>
,Message-ID: <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>

9If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is

address {margin: 0;}
#<address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
)<address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>

3with possibly some class="street", class="city"...


::Sam

-- 
Samuel Latchman
-----------------
web designer [fr]
http://www.latchman.org/sam/


T13:43:44.866 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [17]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
0In-Reply-To: <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
- <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
$ <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, James Craig wrote:
>
H> I can get the input's clickable area to enlarge in Mozilla and Opera,
B> but not the actual visable representation like in IE. Is this a
H> preference setting or perhaps related to the XP native form elements?
>
> Here's a screen shot.
B> http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif

KAssuming that shot is of Mozilla, then I would guess that the XP theme you
;use doesn't support scaling. What does it look like in IE?

FNote that at the moment, styling form controls is not covered by CSS.
GWhile we may be adding more control over this in future levels, at the
9moment, UA implementors can basically do what they like.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 20:57:40 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:57:40 -0500
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
-	<002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
$	<3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
+Message-ID: <3EA841B4.609@cookiecrook.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
*> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, James Craig wrote:
>
>>Here's a screen shot.
B>>http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif
> 
L>Assuming that shot is of Mozilla, then I would guess that the XP theme you
<>use doesn't support scaling. What does it look like in IE?

GYes, that's Mozilla 1.3 on Win XP. IE6 on XP gets the size right, but 
Duses the default browser form element appearance (black and white) 
Ginstead of the XP styled form controls. This is the default silver XP 
theme, not any add-on.

James

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:44.866 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [18]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:08:02 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD6@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

James Craig wrote:
E> I admit I haven't been paying as close attention to this thread as
E> possible, but what do you guys think of adding @media rules? Would
> this work?

FThat's exactly the way to go, and is what @media is designed for. The
Iproblem is, AFAIK, @media isn't well supported in some browser that have
Igood CSS support like IE5/Mac and some versions of KHTML-based browsers.

>> <link rel=3D"stylesheet" type=3D"text/css" media=3D"all" />
>=20
E> Then the stylesheet could include general styles still hidden from
'> Netscape 4, immediately followed by:
>=20
> @media screen {
>    @import "screen.css";
> }
> @media print {
>    @import "print.css";
> }
>=20
B> Perhaps there are some bugs associated with this approach, too?

DThat's kinda overkill if you're using it to block NN4, but it's the
Eideal way to work with media=3D"all" in that you're using @media.=20

FThe reason I say it's overkill is because NN4 doesn't get @import, so
*this, for example, would be just as good:

) <style type=3D"text/css" media=3D"all">
-  /* all-media general styles not for NN4 */

 </style>
 <style type=3D"text/css">
  @import "screen.css" screen;
  @import "print.css" print;

 </style>

IOr within that media=3D"all" CSS file (although I'm not sure if @media =
has
to come first, like @import):

-  /* all-media general styles not for NN4 */
 @media screen {
   /*rules for screen*/
 }
 @media print {
   /*rules for print*/
 }

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Thu Apr 24 21:24:45 2003
%From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:24:45 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <1051210553.6798@tweek.sebduggan.com>
2Message-ID: <1051215888.5130@tweek.sebduggan.com>


&> From: Miriam Frost <miriam@f2o.org>

> Yow!
/> I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.
> 
:> Why is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks

LThere's absolutely nothing wrong with line breaks. It's just that sometimes
Myou want your styled layout to break in a specific place, but have it appear
 as one line when it's unstyled.

T13:43:44.866 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [19]
=================
.From: info at n2dreamweaver.com (Donna Casey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:44:34 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3References: <1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com>
4Message-ID: <00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>

Itoo bad that the link to the "elm" program that actually works with this
Fstyle of non-munging list replies is an orphaned link...it seems that
Joutlook express doesn't offer a choice between individual and group, just
individual and all.

Donna

?> > http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssDiscussListHeaders
>
>
J> OK, I feel suitably chastened :)  It's just not the reply behaviour I'm
used
> to. I'm sure I'll adjust...
T13:43:44.867 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [20]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:56:57 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
CMessage-ID: <OFE5E77EAE.7CFFF59F-ON88256D12.0072C185@capgroup.com>


;> If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is

> address {margin: 0;}
%> <address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
+> <address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>

5> with possibly some class="street", class="city"...

HWe're getting off-topic here, but before we leave I'd like to point out
Jthat the above is not actually proper -- it denotes that each line of the
Laddress is an address itself, when in fact each element is only one part of
the address.

Thanks,

MikeL
T13:43:44.867 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [21]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:08:41 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] WaSP Upgrade Campaign.
7Message-ID: <010501c30aa5$af80eed0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

LI have put together a simple version of the WaSP Upgrade Campaign page that
Mcan be used in a similar manner as the previous one.  I used most of the old
&copy, so there should be no suprises.

%http://www.bewb.org/webstandards.asp


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

T13:43:44.867 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [22]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:05:41 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
4Message-ID: <60376713968.20030424170541@mrclay.org>

9Thursday, April 24, 2003, 3:02:24 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:
8IH> <br> is only wrong when used to separate paragraphs

FThere are other instances where a line-break is visually preferred in
Fa certain place (rather than left to natural flow).  IMO, these cases
*warrant an alternate line-break solution.

ESay you have a heading that's just a tad too long for a single line:

$|  Welcome to My Page About Race  |
$|  Cars                           |

and you might want:

$|       Welcome to My Page        |
$|        About Race Cars          |

FA <br /> just really doesn't make sense structurally and playing with
Gmargins/padding until it wraps where you want is less-than-ideal (what
7if the user chooses a slightly bigger/different font).

8You could use non-breaking spaces to do something like:

E<h1>Welcome&nbsp;to&nbsp;My&nbsp;Page About&nbsp;Race&nbsp;Cars</h1>

2But this seems more elegant and content-friendly:

D<h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
T13:43:44.867 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [23]
=================
9From: stephen at crescentcreative.com (Stephen Hamilton)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:01:18 -0700
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
4In-Reply-To: <009e01c30a1c$25ff5b80$650aa8c0@video>
3Message-ID: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>

GI don't know if it's correct form to reply to your own messages, but I
Ksolved most of my nested list / rollover issues with one remaining niggle.

IMy original problem was caused by not nesting the list elements properly
viz:

	<ul>
		<li>element1</li>
		<ul>
			<li>subelement1</li>
		</ul>
		<li>element2</li>
	</ul>

That piece is now corrected.

HHowever I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
8attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!

%Any pointers are always appreciated.

Stephen

-----Original Message-----
=From: Stephen Hamilton [mailto:stephen@crescentcreative.com]
(Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 9:44 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc


GI have built nested left navigation menus with CSS rollovers on a site
J(www.saveburlingameschools.com) and find significant differences from IE6
<versus Opera 7.1 , Netscape 7.0 , and Mozilla 1.3 (all W2K)

>1) IE does not pick up the color attribute for the text link:

.navbar li a {
 <snip>
  color: #880026;
 }

92) and IE does not pick up the submenu background image:

7http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/index.php?Topic=5

.subnavbar li a  {
 <snip>
1  background-image: url('pictures/submenu.gif');
   background-repeat: no-repeat;
  text-decoration: none;

LAll the other mentioned browsers seem to work ok (though there is a strange
;framing ssue with Mozilla that I haven't quite resolved!).

The style sheets are at :
2http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/measurea.css
8http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/measurealayout.css


.Any thoughts / pointers would be appreciated.

Many thanks

Stephen

J"There are many roads up the mountain, but they all lead to the top   ...
<The road is steep whichever way you go, so enjoy the view!"



T13:43:44.867 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [24]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:05:33 -0400
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
5In-Reply-To: <001601c30a43$4e8a29f0$210110ac@BigGuy>
7Message-ID: <006701c30aa5$3f66d010$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Anthony Baker : 
> Make one of your own. 

IYeah, that's what I plan on doing I think.. But my real main concern was
Ethe sites out there that have that reference that are now out of the
Fdesigner's control.  Thankfully I saw on Mark Pilgrim's site that the
Dpage isn't going anywhere, so we won't be sending folks to a 404 on
those older sites.
Ihttp://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/04/21/browser_upgrade_campaign_off
icially_retired.html

-- Josh

T13:43:44.867 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [25]
=================
*From: msauers at bcr.org (Michael Sauers)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:39:00 -0600
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
5In-Reply-To: <60376713968.20030424170541@mrclay.org>
;Message-ID: <KGEHKLFLLACNDPAKIHOPIEAHCPAA.msauers@bcr.org>

Steve;

KYou've just lost me completely. You're suggesting that <br /> doesn't make
Lsense to break a line into two but that we should span a space and classify
Iit as "br" (which you didn't say what that class is defined as) instead.

LWhy oh why would I do that? Why doesn't <br /> make sense structurally? Why
Mdo you suggest almost 15x the amount of code instead. This just doesn't make
7sense to me. Did I miss something in your explanation?

3--------------------------------------------------
,Michael Sauers, Librarian, Trainer & Author
*Bibliographical Center for Research (BCR)
3Aurora, CO :: 303-751-6277 x124 :: msauers@bcr.org
3--------------------------------------------------

G> Say you have a heading that's just a tad too long for a single line:
>
H> A <br /> just really doesn't make sense structurally and playing with
I> margins/padding until it wraps where you want is less-than-ideal (what
9> if the user chooses a slightly bigger/different font).
>
:> You could use non-breaking spaces to do something like:
>
G> <h1>Welcome&nbsp;to&nbsp;My&nbsp;Page About&nbsp;Race&nbsp;Cars</h1>
>
4> But this seems more elegant and content-friendly:
>
F> <h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

T13:43:44.867 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [26]
=================
#From: rudy937 at rogers.com (rudy)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:44:06 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
3References: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>
<Message-ID: <003f01c30aaa$a3bebb90$0cb96618@r9373j4yqbe8dy>

J> However I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
:> attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!
"> (www.saveburlingameschools.com)

*i love the apple with the bite out of it!

Lhowever, the colours on the nav links are identical in ie6 and mozilla, and
5in fact are no different in link versus hover status

,hover underlines the links in both browsers


rudy
T13:43:44.867 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [27]
=================
)From: d.abraham at netgates.co.uk (Dave)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:59:14 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3References: <1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com>
)	<00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
2Message-ID: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>

JI am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
Hresource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
replies. Not much use at all.

MI don't understand the logic behind it, anyone know of any other CSS mailing
)lists that don't adopt this odd policy??

LPS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna Casey
(sorry Donna) Not good at all.

T13:43:44.868 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [28]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:02:01 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
3References: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>
2Message-ID: <006801c30aad$226a5600$6401a8c0@yoda>

J> However I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
:> attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!

.Link colors are controlled by pseudo-classes.

.navbar li a:link {
color: #880026;
}

Lonnie
<From contact at lukeredpath.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 23:51:28 2003
2From: contact at lukeredpath.co.uk (Luke Redpath)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:51:28 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
EMessage-ID: <ENEMIKFCPDMDJCEEJFPPEEKNCGAA.contact@lukeredpath.co.uk>

JIf you are using Outlook to use this list, it's not hard to adjust - just
Jhit reply to all instead, and quickly delete the sender from the to list,
leaving the list address.

Simple!

Cheers,

Luke Redpath
--
www.sonicdeath.co.uk/weblog
C"Celebrity Squares" - giving the web a CSS makeover - coming soon!

T13:43:44.868 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [29]
=================
%From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:54:53 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051221498.17020@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051224895.24032@tweek.sebduggan.com>


+> From: "Michael Sauers" <msauers@bcr.org>
> 
M> You've just lost me completely. You're suggesting that <br /> doesn't make
N> sense to break a line into two but that we should span a space and classify
K> it as "br" (which you didn't say what that class is defined as) instead.
> 
N> Why oh why would I do that? Why doesn't <br /> make sense structurally? Why
O> do you suggest almost 15x the amount of code instead. This just doesn't make
9> sense to me. Did I miss something in your explanation?

KIf you put a <br /> in the middle of a sentence, it puts a hard structural
Mbreak in - where what you really want is a purely layout break which doesn't
affect the flow of the words.

MIt basically goes to the core of separating layout from content - in Steve's
Kexample, the <br /> is being used just for layout, and should therefore be
frowned on.

T13:43:44.868 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [30]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:01:36 -0700 (PDT)
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
-In-Reply-To: <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
< <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org> <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241558520.15423-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Sam Latchman wrote:
>
;> If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is
>
> address {margin: 0;}
%> <address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
+> <address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>
>
5> with possibly some class="street", class="city"...

G<address> is a block-level element, it contains a single block address
9(well, actually, a single block of contact information).

HThe above markup would be two addresses, not one. One address should be
Kmarked up with one <address> element, with lineBReaks marked up with <br>.

G<br> is fine, it's only "evil" when it is used to do something that is
Jstrictly presentational. An address has multiple lines even when you read
,it out over the phone, so <br> makes sense.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
;From mark.r.stevens at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 00:00:38 2003
1From: mark.r.stevens at attbi.com (markinoregon)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:00:38 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
DMessage-ID: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>

GWhat's the big deal, I just right click on the message I want to reply
Mto,click reply-all, then remove the person's e-mail address from the to bar,
'like I did just now with Dave's reply.
IIt's just a matter of people being aware of who the addresses are in the
Kreply to header. we all know the horror stories in a corporate environment
Fwhere some knucklehead reply's about something sensitive to EVERYONE!

<>I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
>replies. Not much use at all.

KI TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
Kpeople on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
Kto try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
Athinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.

just my .02 cents.

-----Original Message-----
*From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org
>[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org]On Behalf Of Dave
'Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 2:59 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
*Subject: Re: [css-d] Replying to the list


JI am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
Hresource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
replies. Not much use at all.

MI don't understand the logic behind it, anyone know of any other CSS mailing
)lists that don't adopt this odd policy??

LPS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna Casey
(sorry Donna) Not good at all.


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
T13:43:44.868 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [31]
=================
=From: Eli_Simpson at capgroup.com (Eli_Simpson@capgroup.com)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:14:15 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
CMessage-ID: <OF6AFD6A44.5D94CB6C-ON88256D12.007DFF19@capgroup.com>


F> <h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

EWith that solution you could end up with breaks between other words,
Idepending on font/window sizes.  Here's what I would do if you wanted to
5force a line break at that exact place and no other:

C<h1 style="white-space: nowrap">Welcome to My Page<br />About Race

Cars</h1>
T13:43:44.868 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [32]
=================
)From: d.abraham at netgates.co.uk (Dave)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:14:16 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
DReferences: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>
2Message-ID: <007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>


M> I TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
M> people on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
M> to try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
C> thinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.
>
> just my .02 cents.

MI have not been around long enough to see that. I am not saying people don't
Lhelp,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making the information
Lharder to find. It is more of an assumption and an observation after only a
day of watching mind.


T13:43:44.868 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [33]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:41:44 -0400
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
DReferences: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>
'	<007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>
#Message-ID: <3EA87638.46D7@ij.net>

Dave wrote:
 
> markinoregon wrote:

O> > I TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
O> > people on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
O> > to try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
E> > thinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.
 
O> I have not been around long enough to see that. I am not saying people don't
N> help,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making the information
N> harder to find. It is more of an assumption and an observation after only a
> day of watching mind.

Offlist replies mean:

E1-Others have no clue how many or even if others have responded to a
Brequest, which means there's no way for others to know whether an
+(additional) reply from them is warranted.

C2-Validity checking is unavailable. If others don't see responses,
:defective replies aren't trapped for rebuttal/correction.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
T13:43:44.875 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [34]
=================
.From: info at n2dreamweaver.com (Donna Casey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:43:55 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
References: 
O	<1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com><00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
'	<002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
4Message-ID: <003c01c30abb$5ef43290$7802a8c0@buglet>


H> PS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna
Casey
!> (sorry Donna) Not good at all.

Mnot a problem but my point was that the link to the ELM program was defunct.
JI found the setup here odd at first but adjusted even with OE after a few
'abrupt messages from the email police.

I--mostly lurk and snatch up the delicious crumbs of CSS that others drop
here and there....

J<slithering back to a dark corner of the list.....we loves it here, don't
we, my preciousssss......>

T13:43:44.875 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [35]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:50:04 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
References: 
O	<1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com><00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
'	<002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
2Message-ID: <00f701c30abc$3abdc2f0$fd00a8c0@mike>

Dave

KI rarely send a message to a list... and though I've been an ardent lurker
Bfor a while this may well be the first time I have written to it.

JYou may already have learned something from replies as to how to reply to
Mthe list. Simple enough to use "reply-all" etc but so many people don't know
it.

MMore seriously, on CSS, there is no way you will get better quality in-depth
LCSS info anywhere. Far in advance of (incompetent) table based Web-dev too.
FWriter's to the list have combined technical knowledge and experience
Eunequalled. Enormously helpful, almost always on topic, friendly and
Hrespectful. Better than books or formal study. Stay with it a while and
Hyou'll see what I mean, give yourself time to get the "feel" of all the
helpful characters involved.

HTH, and welcome.

Mike
Edinburgh, Scotland

L> I am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
J> resource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
 > replies. Not much use at all.
T13:43:44.875 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [36]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:54:42 -0400
ISubject: [css-d] Helpfulness of the list (was Re:  Replying to the list)
3In-Reply-To: <007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>
7Message-ID: <007801c30abc$e3252e60$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



	> Dave :
<> I have not been around long enough to see that. I am not 
> saying people don't
?> help,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making 
> the information
6> harder to find. It is more of an assumption and an 
> observation after only a
> day of watching mind.


GJust a friendly suggestion Dave, hang out and give it a bit more time.
FWhat you don't see yet, and what impressed the hell outta me was just
>*how much* time some people here put into helping others with
Hworkarounds, helping with bug research, browser/os issues and the like.
BA lot of that help seems to happen on off time like after work or
Ebetween projects (I assume a lot of other people 'work' for a living
around here). 

EIf you take a cruise through the archives, it'll become obvious that
Isome of those answers and suggestions take a LONG time just to formulate
Ibefore it makes it to the list.  I say obvious because of the sheer size
"and complexity of some of them.  

EGo through and look at some of the replies from Holly Bergevin... At
Itimes she's reproduced entire pages with full code and original graphics
Hjust to help someone with their trouble.  And she's not the only one, I
Hdon't mean to exclude anyone, she's just the first that came to memory.
GPersonally, I can't figure out where some of these kind people get the
time!

CMany times people will solve their own problem that was previously
Eposted to the list and are kind enough to say "I figured it out, and
here's how..."

HDon't forget, many subscribe as Digest Mode, so they only get one email
Ea day, not every single one.  This slows down the process a bit too.

HYMMV, but I looked for a while JUST for this kind of help and this kind
Gof discussion, and while there are some other nice places out there, I
Hreally think, bang-for-the-buck, you just can't beat this list for this
particular issue. :)

--Josh


T13:43:44.875 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [37]
=================
;From: css-discuss at plumlee.org (css-discuss@plumlee.org)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:22:43 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
<Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030424201237.00bbd7c0@plumlee.org>

LI've been trying to use the excellent layouts provided by Alex Robinson to 
;cure a layout with Mac IE problems.  Ran across something 
Minteresting/infuriating and I'm hoping that someone here can either explain 
6it to me or point me in the direction of a known bug.

CUsing this layout, I tried to set up a page with a fixed width of 
.762px.  Left column is 120px, right is 145px.
�http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml?order=213&width_one=50&width_two=120&width_three=145&wrap_width=762&column_gutter=0&column_vertical_padding=0&column_horizontal_padding=0&columns_background=1&border_surround=0&body_padding=0&longest_column=one&controls=1&show_style=0

LLooks great in Mozilla and Opera.  If I try to place an image in the right 
Jhand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE 
5refuses to display the content in that third column.

HShorten the length of the image by 4px, and it displays.  Lengthen the 
Loverall length of the container div by 4px, it displays.  It looks like IE 
Kis placing a a 4px padding around the image.  Tried setting it to display 
&inline and block, no luck either way.

IBut if I float the image left or right, IE 6 works perfectly.  I've run 
Lacross problems where IE 6 collapses padding and margins when elements are 
Jadjacent to floated elements, so it seems that I'm taking advantage of a 
hack here.

Any thoughts?

Scott Plumlee
JPGP Public key: http://plumlee.org/pgp/   D64C 47D9 B855 5829 D22A  D390 
F8E2 9B58 9CBF 1F8D
T13:43:44.875 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [38]
=================
0From: earthwrk at earthlink.net (Bill Scheider)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:00:41 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <00f701c30abc$3abdc2f0$fd00a8c0@mike>
BMessage-ID: <MABBLFKKJOFHOKMHGDFOKEEOCPAA.earthwrk@earthlink.net>

	Hi Mike,

9I totally agree with you RE the quality of the CSS info.

MIt's not only better than books but many of the folks discussing CSS on this
:list have /written/ the books! It doesn't get any better.

Bill
G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

T13:43:44.875 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [39]
=================
,From: john at evolt.org.uk (John Handelaar)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 03:09:36 +0100
NSubject: ADMIN: End of thread, please. (was RE: [css-d] Replying to the list,
	and others)
CIn-Reply-To: <MABBLFKKJOFHOKMHGDFOKEEOCPAA.earthwrk@earthlink.net>
=Message-ID: <HNEPIHIKGMNGPEJJCMGMGEGACGAA.john@evolt.org.uk>


3My apologies to those who were wondering where the
 stand-in listmom went to today.

0It's time to stop this thread, I think, in the 
4interest of maintaining our regular signal-to-noise
ratio.

1Eric's position on header munging is very clear,
.and the relevant explanation on the wiki was 
posted earlier this afternoon.

3That wiki post also makes it abundantly clear that
3the place to drag this up (since it's clearly off-
-topic) is in private mail to the list owner.

-Eric will be back in a couple of weeks.  I'd
2appreciate not getting mail on the subject during
4his absence since I'm certainly not about to change
5the list settings without being able to consult him.

3I hope that I don't have to enforce this tomorrow,

folks :-)

Thanks for your attention.

John H
Server admin
,On behalf of the currently-absent Mr Meyer.

+------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

+T +44 20 8459 4923       M +44 7930 681789
+F +44 870 169 7657   E john@userfrenzy.com
+------------------------------------------
:From chris at placenamehere.com  Fri Apr 25 04:26:50 2003
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:26:50 -0400
CSubject: [css-d] [ANNC] PNH Developer Toolbar for Mozilla/Netscape
6In-Reply-To: <BAC2D566.52680%chris@placenamehere.com>
5Message-ID: <BACE233A.5380F%chris@placenamehere.com>

Eon 4/16/03 9:39 AM, Chris Casciano at chris@placenamehere.com wrote:

L> Since the cat is out of the bag already I figured I'd pass along the word
?> that I've released a toolbar add on for web developers using
> Mozilla/Netscape.
> 

1v0.51 is here! you firebird users get your wish!

%http://placenamehere.com/pnhtoolbar/

"Change Log for v0.51 (from v0.50)
F* Added a Firebird/Phoenix compatible installer w/ minor link changes
!* Added encoding of complex URLs
* Fixed a few typos
)* Added submission the W3C P3P Validator
)* Added Link to the DevEdge Sidebar Tabs

8Grab it now! Feedback to moz@placenamehere.com, please.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
T13:43:44.875 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [40]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:08 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
5Message-ID: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>

1Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
MS> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
KS> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
)S> stylesheets, there would be no break.

GSince this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
(for the methods described by Seb and I:
!http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
T13:43:44.876 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [41]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:25:09 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] Select first LI of an UL
>In-Reply-To: <F552B577-74D1-11D7-B5E8-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
=References: <F552B577-74D1-11D7-B5E8-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
3Message-ID: <12059885896.20030424222509@attbi.com>

6Arlen wrote on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 at 9:51:54 AM:

> li {font-weight: bold;}
> li + li {font-weight:normal}

B> [...] When it fails, the entire list will be bolded, so perhaps
?> you'll want to combine it with a hack that screens out those
1> browsers from seeing the initial bold styling.

CThis should have a better success rate, and it's not really a hack
;(i.e., it makes common sense, even if it is a bit longer):

    ul>li{font-weight:bold}
!    ul>li+li{font-weight:normal}

@There aren't many browsers that support child selectors without
'supporting adjacent sibling selectors.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:44.876 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [42]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:22:54 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] lists line height
7In-Reply-To: <014101c30931$efd61ca0$6001a8c0@felwithe>
3References: <000001c30930$2a93df00$42d5fea9@Estes>
+ <014101c30931$efd61ca0$6001a8c0@felwithe>
2Message-ID: <8263351585.20030424232254@attbi.com>

7Brandy wrote on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 at 7:47:37 PM:

$> http://clients.mediadiva.net/css/

C> The links on the left bottom side, I have the line height set to
E> 120, and I like how it looks, but I thought it was possible to set
?> the height between each LI element and then the height of an
G> individual LI element itself. This way links the run over to 2 lines
)> will look like 1 link and not 2 links.

'> Anyone know what I am talking about?

BYes. Although it took me a while to understand. :) If you want to
Cretain the line-height but have the links' background-color remain
G"together" over multiple lines, I think you'll need to use padding-top
3and padding-bottom on the a elements. For example:

    ul li a{padding:.2em 0}

CShould do the trick. You may also consider this, depending on your
0needs, but I doubt it will be more appropriate:

    ul>li a{padding:.2em 0}

$Support isn't as good, at any rate.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:44.876 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [43]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:18:01 -0500
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
4In-Reply-To: <000001c30a0f$5ab9d060$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
3References: <000001c30a0f$5ab9d060$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
3Message-ID: <14863058716.20030424231801@attbi.com>

9Aleem wrote on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 at 10:12:35 PM:

D> When I said semantic, I wasn't looking for a response along these
G> lines, but rather something which went beyond - example: by default,
F> does the body have a margin of ~10px from the frame or a padding of
D> 10px within? Is either semantically correct? In publishing, pages
C> don't have a frame (chrome) and since electronic publishing is a
D> derivative of print, I would go with padding instead of margin on
> that one.

ACSS agrees with you. <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/sample.html>

AI don't think it's possible to make a case for margin, if you're
Efamiliar with the spec. Of course that's what most browsers use. The
Eabove sample style sheet is just a suggestion, which is a good thing
	overall.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:44.876 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [44]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:23:38 -0500
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
0In-Reply-To: <3EA750F0.4020602@adelaide.edu.au>
3References: <000601c309f6$2e39ca90$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
$ <3EA750F0.4020602@adelaide.edu.au>
1Message-ID: <663395931.20030424232338@attbi.com>

8Steve wrote on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 at 9:50:24 PM:

?> <aside> Seems to me that many posts to this list are readily
@> answered by reference to the CSS2 spec. OK, it's not the most
G> readable spec in the world, and sometimes you need to read something
E> two or three times before you get it, but, it is worth reading. If
E> you haven't got it, get it. Mine is on my desk, or nearby, all the
> time. </aside>

-Those types of questions aren't discouraged.
+<http://www.css-discuss.org/policies.html>

FYour advice is nonetheless helpful, of course. I think what we really
Gneed is a comprehensive "spec for dummies," a document that deals with
CCSS2 as simply as possible, written for CSS authors instead of CSS
Fimplementors. A basic CSS vocabulary tutorial alone would be amazing;
Eeven veteran authors fudge their technospeak jargon. I think most of
Dthe CSS2 spec is pretty readable nowadays, but a couple years ago I
!was confused by simple passages.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:44.876 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [45]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:24:35 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
6In-Reply-To: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
*	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
/Message-ID: <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>

Steve Clay wrote:
3> Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
O> S> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
M> S> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
+> S> stylesheets, there would be no break.
> 
I> Since this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
*> for the methods described by Seb and I:
#> http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks

Nice page!

I notice you used

	white-space:pre-line;

 whereas the CSS2 spec at W3 has

	white-space:pre;

"Is this something new? Or a typo?


:I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using 
Awhitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in 
9the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

@<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
#   <meta http-equiv="content-type"
+  content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
/   <meta name="author" content="Steve Thomas">
   <title>Test</title>
   <style type="text/css">
      h1 { text-align: center; }
"     h1#pref { white-space:pre; }
   </style>
</head>
<body>
#<h1 id="pref">Dr. Strangelove,<br>
or:<br>
6How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb</h1>
<p>Blah blah blah</p>
</body>
</html>

AOn browsers which don't implement whitespace, this will degrade 
Anicely. Those that do will display the heading precisely as you 
@want. (With the caveat that whitespace:pre will keep each line 
:as given, even with narrow windows, requiring scrolling.)

AAbove all, this preserves the semantic integrity of the heading 
*intact, without the need to embed coding.


Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
T13:43:44.876 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [46]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:00:58 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
6Message-ID: <0C1E480F.3B3D924D.009CE500@netscape.net>

css-discuss@plumlee.org wrote:

$>layouts provided by Alex Robinson 

�>http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml?order=213&width_one=50&width_two=120&width_three=145&wrap_width=762&column_gutter=0&column_vertical_padding=0&column_horizontal_padding=0&columns_background=1&border_surround=0&body_padding=0&longest_column=one&controls=1&show_style=0

*>If I try to place an image in the right 
M>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6. �IE 
6>refuses to display the content in that third column.

�Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the size of the image. Is it possible you have a page you could put up so your specific case can be looked at? That would make it easier to give specific suggestions instead of theoritical ones.

�As for hacks for IE, (and other browsers as needed), in my opinion, they are inevitable. As long as they validate, and don't mess something up for another browser (that cannot be worked around) you're probably going to have to use some. 

�However, I always try to see if I can write/fix a page in such a way as to use the least number possible. What that means is if IE6 needs to have and image floated to work, and floating that image doesn't bother other browsers, I write it so the image is floated and move on to something else. 

Now, about that URL...

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
4From gleemax at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 06:10:45 2003
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:10:45 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
0In-Reply-To: <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
M <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org> <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
3Message-ID: <12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>

8Steve wrote on Thursday, April 24, 2003 at 11:54:35 PM:

 >         white-space:pre-line;

$> Is this something new? Or a typo?

8It's new in CSS 2.1, which is not yet a recommendation:
8<http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/text.html#white-space-prop>

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:44.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [47]
=================
,From: gavin at refinery.com (Gavin Kistner)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:21:43 -0600
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
@Message-ID: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>

EForgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the 
<browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
0http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

CMy expectation was for the way Camino/Mozilla did it to be right. 
F(Under the assumption that 100% was based off of the 'standard' line 
Fheight, and hence >100% should result in increased line spacing, not 
decreased.)

HBut now the spec seems to imply that something like Safari may be more 
Ecorrect. I'm just...very unused to Mozilla getting something wrong. 
I(Camino is built off of the Mozilla 1.0 trunk, IIRC, but the appearance 
is the same in 1.2.1 also.)
T13:43:44.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [48]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:06:24 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
M	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org> <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
(	<12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA8C958.2010405@adelaide.edu.au>

John Lewis wrote:
:> Steve wrote on Thursday, April 24, 2003 at 11:54:35 PM:
> 
> 
 >>        white-space:pre-line;
> 
> 
$>>Is this something new? Or a typo?
> 
> 
:> It's new in CSS 2.1, which is not yet a recommendation:
9> <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/text.html#white-space-prop
> 

@Thanks. And amazingly, although not yet even a recommendation, 
 it works! (In Moz 1.2.1 anyway)

AI guess on reflection, that gives you an insight into how these 
0standards are generated in the first place. :-)

	Regards,
Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
T13:43:44.880 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [49]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:47:25 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Path Positioning Problem.
6Message-ID: <02A69262.14063CDB.009CE500@netscape.net>

5"Will Boyett" <WBoyett@smtp.co.alachua.fl.us> wrote:

I>Hello all, I'm still rather new to this list, and so appologize for any
>faux pas on my part.

Hi Will - Welcome to the list.

>here is my dilema:
>
H>I am trying to make a local path statement in a bar, with a link to my
L>site map on the right margin of the same bar. �So far, so good. However,
E>my Site Map link keeps overlapping the text of my path statement on
>narrow monitors, 
[snip]

�Now I have to apologize, because even with your explanation and the code you provided, you lost me. Is it possible for you to provide a URL to the page in question so we can give it a look see? If the content is restricted, strip it out and replace it with dummy text. Working with the actual page generally offers the best opportunity for someone to provide helpful advice.

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
8From holnkids at netscape.net  Fri Apr 25 07:04:05 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:04:05 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
6Message-ID: <69589F46.5F9A91EF.009CE500@netscape.net>

#Donna m87 <dm87@rogers.com> wrote:

H>I have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
H>header, content and footer. �When the content increases, the footer 
>is overwritten.
>
D>How can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
D>volume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?
>
G>What sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

aHi Donna - Have you seen the wiki pages about different layout options? The main page is here - 
0http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts

�There are links to several other wiki pages from the above page that discuss the merits and difficulties of various types of layouts as well as links to outside sources. 

�In addition, Bob Easton has assembled a very nice collection of links to 3-column-layouts (with notes about the techniques used on each) - 
8http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ThreeColumnLayouts

gIf you don't need that many columns, many 3-column layouts can be adjusted to work with fewer columns.

HTH,

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Fri Apr 25 09:18:24 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:18:24 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051243530.20492@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051258707.23490@tweek.sebduggan.com>


JThanks Steve - I couldn't have explained it better myself (and, indeed, I
didn't...).

Seb


&> From: Steve Clay <steve@mrclay.org>
*> Reply-To: Steve Clay <steve@mrclay.org>
(> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:08 -0400
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
3> Subject: Re: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
> 
> 
3> Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
O> S> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
M> S> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
+> S> stylesheets, there would be no break.
> 
I> Since this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
*> for the methods described by Seb and I:
#> http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks
> 
> Steve
> -- 
> http://mrclay.org/
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 

T13:43:44.881 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [50]
=================
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:22:35 +0100
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
2Message-ID: <1051262556.1547@tweek.sebduggan.com>


:Is there any way to set the minimum height of an element?

LThere is the CSS2 property min-height, but it only seems to be supported in
MOpera 6+ and Gecko/Mozilla browsers - no versions of IE, or the current beta
(of Safari (although it may come later).

JSo, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x pixels
Lhigh, while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary? (And before
Lsomeone suggests it, I don't intend putting a 1px x 400px gif in my page ;)


Seb

T13:43:44.881 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [51]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:28:02 +0200
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

E> So, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x
pixels high,=20
:while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary?
GIn IE on PC, it will expand if you have set the height to 20px and its
content is bigger...
FHowever, you can't use min-height and height in conjunction for Gecko
etc.

So, for IE on PC, use this:

height:20px;

0and for standrads-compliant browsers, use this:

min-height:20px;


/Robert
1From rijk at opera.com  Fri Apr 25 10:46:42 2003
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:46:42 +0200
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
MReferences: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
)Message-ID: <oprn6ir4x6yoq9u9@localhost>

LOn Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:28:02 +0200, Robert Nyman <robert.nyman@centus.com> 
wrote:

F>> So, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x
J>> pixels high, while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary?

I> In IE on PC, it will expand if you have set the height to 20px and its
> content is bigger...
H> However, you can't use min-height and height in conjunction for Gecko
> etc.
>
> So, for IE on PC, use this:
>
> height:20px;
2> and for standrads-compliant browsers, use this:
> min-height:20px;

For example like this:

$div {height:20px; min-height:20px;}
html>body div {height:auto;}

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
@ making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com M
T13:43:44.881 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [52]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:59:02 +0100
ISubject: [css-d] safari and mac IE5 hacks or alternative layout solution
	needed
0Message-ID: <3EA906E6.1010304@starskiweb.co.uk>

Hi All

JI need some help with this conversion from a table layout to a tableless 
layout. This is it so far:-

:http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/3_col_margin_border.htm

GI have a fixed width 3 column layout with a liquid header and footer. 
HColumns 2 and 3 have their own header. I have tried various solutions, 
Cbut currently I have 2 main floating columns, the second of which 
Econtains two floating sub columns. I have used a top margin to push 
Jthese two sub columns down and have an absolutely positioned heading for 
Jthese columns. The center and right columns need a border so this was my 
.main reason for wrapping them in another div.

EThis works on PC IE5 and 6, Mozilla 1.3, but safari (not sure which 
Mversion) the footer wont stay put and and IE5 mac the main column drifts up.

HThis doesn't need to support Netscape 4 - I will be hiding most of the 
styling from that.

--
Rick Hurst
http://hypothecate.co.uk
T13:43:44.881 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [53]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:48:47 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
6In-Reply-To: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
*	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
/Message-ID: <3EA90B87.3010409@adelaide.edu.au>

>Arrgghh! Apologies to all, my HTML editor mangled my example 
Bcode, which should of course NOT have <br> tags in the middle of 
:the header. Here's the corrected version (at the risk of 
prolonging the bordom):

...

9I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
@whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
9the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

@<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
$    <meta http-equiv="content-type"
,   content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
0    <meta name="author" content="Steve Thomas">
    <title>Test</title>
    <style type="text/css">
!      h1 { text-align: center; }
#      h1#pref { white-space:pre; }
    </style>
</head>
<body>
<h1 id="pref">Dr. Strangelove,
or:
6How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb</h1>
<p>Blah blah blah</p>
</body>
</html>

@On browsers which don't implement whitespace, this will degrade
@nicely. Those that do will display the heading precisely as you
?want. (With the caveat that whitespace:pre will keep each line
:as given, even with narrow windows, requiring scrolling.)

@Above all, this preserves the semantic integrity of the heading
*intact, without the need to embed coding.

<(And no, whitespace:pre-line; doesn't work in Moz1.2.1/PC.)


8Hopefully that makes more sense than the previous post.


Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
T13:43:44.881 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [54]
=================
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:06 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051266048.25755@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051268466.27913@tweek.sebduggan.com>


6> From: Steve Thomas <stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au>
>....
;> I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
B> whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
;> the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

MVery nice Steve - this seems to be the most elegant solution so far - and it
2seems to work in every browser I've thrown it at!

(I'll be changing my own code to this...


Seb

T13:43:44.881 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [55]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:00:13 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
AIn-Reply-To: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
3Message-ID: <16087194233.20030425060013@attbi.com>

6Gavin wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 12:21:43 AM:

2> http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

D> My expectation was for the way Camino/Mozilla did it to be right.
G> (Under the assumption that 100% was based off of the 'standard' line
G> height, and hence >100% should result in increased line spacing, not
> decreased.)

BThe suggested default line-height value is between 1 and 1.2, but
Athere is no rule saying browsers need to follow it. Any value is
Facceptable according to CSS2. That means it's impossible to determine
Gif a value greater than 100% will be bigger, smaller, or the same. All
:this without taking crazy user style sheets into account!

FAfter reading CSS2, playing with line-height in Opera 7.1 and Mozilla
G1.4a, and comparing renderings for far too long, I'm stumped. I really
Fhave very little idea of how the inline box model and line-height are
Gsupposed to work. For the most part, with identical values Mozilla and
FOpera returned similar and even identical results. That's comforting.
GFor some reason, Mozilla doesn't behave anything like Camino. At first
EI thought my test page was strange; then I visited your page and the
EMozilla result look basically identical to Opera and Safari. I can't
Dexplain the Mac IE or Camino results. I don't expect line-height to
5behave like that, but I'm pretty weak on the theory.

8The shoddiness of the Win IE rendering is self-evident.

BI'd be interested to see if anyone knows or can figure out why my
AMozilla and your Camino rendering look so different. I don't use
BMozilla much, so I haven't changed anything but the default font.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:44.882 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [56]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:11:04 +0200
OSubject: [css-d] Tip: How to add a rule with script and use the Box Model Hack
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D2@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

ITo use the Box Model hack in script, you need to add an extra backslash,
Hsince JavaScript interprets the first one for string escape purposes...

	Example:

6oStyleSheet.addRule("div.levelItem", "height:22px;");
8oStyleSheet.addRule("div.levelItem", "he\\ight:20px;");


/Robert
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Fri Apr 25 12:23:06 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:23:06 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D3@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

<Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only,
(which browsers are the most common etc?


/Robert
8From rick at starskiweb.co.uk  Fri Apr 25 13:10:08 2003
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:10:08 +0100
3Subject: [css-d] how do I hide style from Mac IE5?
0Message-ID: <3EA925A0.4080609@starskiweb.co.uk>

FI've made some progress with my liquid header and footer/fixed width 
Jcolumns layout problem and now my only real concern is the IE5 mac mess:-

)http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v6.htm

>so what I want now is just a hack to hide styles from mac IE5

cheers

--
Rick Hurst
http://hypothecate.co.uk
T13:43:44.882 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [57]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:09:11 +0200
3Subject: [css-d] how do I hide style from Mac IE5?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052DC@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

@> so what I want now is just a hack to hide styles from mac IE5
8http://www.sam-i-am.com/testsuite/css/mac_ie5_hack.html

/Robert
3From dmead at optiem.com  Fri Apr 25 13:21:47 2003
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:21:47 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] Hyperlink position in NN4.7
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E928D@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

Hi all,

EI've only joined the list yesterday and I already have a question to
pose.

GI'm designing a web site that has to be "viewable" down to NN4.7.  I'm
Iusing table with some CSS to style content in the cells etc.  My problem
	is this.

EMy footer nav runs nicely along the bottom (shortened version here):

  <div class=3D"footernav">=20
0  <p>&nbsp;<a href=3D"#">MENU</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a
#href=3D"#">LOCATIONS&nbsp;</a></p>
	  </div>

with the CSS code:

E  .footernav { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
G8px; color: #FEAC22; text-decoration: none; background-color: #7B0808;
padding: 5px 10px; }
H  .footernav a:link { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:
E#FEAC22; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px; background-color:
transparent; }
D  .footernav a:visited { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
:color: #FEAC22; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px;
 background-color: transparent;}
I  .footernav a:hover { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:
E#FFFFFF; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px; background-color:
transparent; }

=It looks fine in IE but when viewed in NN4.7 the links stack
Hone-on-top-of-another instead of side-by-side!  I've created a separate
Fstyle sheet for NN and removed the padding from the CSS code and this
Fbunches them all up (hence the two &nbsp; between links).  Is there a
)way around this or is this the best fix.

FI did a quick check through the archives but didn't turn anything up.
FApologies if the code is a little sloppy but I'm still finding my CSS
feet so to speak.

Many thanks,

Dave
T13:43:44.882 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [58]
=================
4From: larz at cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Ryan La Riviere)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:38:54 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] New CSS2 Site - XHTML 1.0
7In-Reply-To: <006f01c30920$b0d61750$6001a8c0@felwithe>
6Message-ID: <BACE968E.27D21%larz@cbis.ece.drexel.edu>

JOn 04/22/2003 18:44, "Brandy (mediadiva)" <fortuneb@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> who did?
> 
>> 
1>> Yea...spelled Cingular wrong on the file.  :/

JMe on the screenshot's file name I had uploaded...I should have specified
the "I" part.

-Ryan

-- 
Mr. Ryan La Riviere
6Project Manager; Mechanical Engineering and Mechanics
*College of Engineering; Drexel University
Philadelphia, PA 19104

*hp: http://staff.tdec.drexel.edu/~edljedi
IM (AIM, Yahoo, MSN): edljedi
w: 215.895.6460
<Geek Code: http://staff.tded.drexel.edu/~edljedi/geeksville

HOne thing the hardware engineers just can't seem to get the bugs out of
is... fresh paint.
T13:43:44.882 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [59]
=================
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:51:43 +0000
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>



=>Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only,
)>which browsers are the most common etc?

+My own stats, for what they're worth, say:

Ecxplorer 5    69%
Safari         15%
Mozilla         6%
Netscape 6      4%
Netscape 4      4%
Explorer 4      2%

NNote that these numbers are mainly from my development sites which attract a 
7higher share of non-IE browsers than the average site.

IWhichever stats you'll find, please keep in mind that Safari's share is 
Igoing to rise dramatically when it becomes the default browser for OS X.

GAny Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and 
Safari.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
;MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
)http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
T13:43:44.882 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [60]
=================
;From: css-discuss at plumlee.org (css-discuss@plumlee.org)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:54:17 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
7In-Reply-To: <0C1E480F.3B3D924D.009CE500@netscape.net>
<Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030425084249.00b5a738@plumlee.org>

(At 01:00 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:

+ >>If I try to place an image in the right
L >>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE
8 >>refuses to display the content in that third column.
 >
L >Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I
N >could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending
M >on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the
M >size of the image. Is it possible you have a page you could put up so your
M >specific case can be looked at? That would make it easier to give specific
+ >suggestions instead of theoritical ones.

6thank you for the response.  I've placed a page here:
Lhttp://wgi.org/2003/indexmac2.php where you can copy the code and watch it 
Hhappen.  Allow the float, works in IE.  Remove the float, doesn't show.

MWith the float: left in place for the img tag, it display correctly in IE 6 
>and Mozilla and Opera 7.10.  Without it, it vanishes in IE 6.

JAgain, many thinks to Alex Robinson for all the work on the page, and to 
Kthe other contributors (including Holly, I believe) that are listed there.

M >However, I always try to see if I can write/fix a page in such a way as to
M >use the least number possible. What that means is if IE6 needs to have and
F >image floated to work, and floating that image doesn't bother other
N >browsers, I write it so the image is floated and move on to something else.

JI appreciate the advice.  I think I might have a "immovable object meets 
>the irresistible force" complex about this problem right now.
T13:43:44.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [61]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:57:14 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052E0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

Interesting!
GEspecially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
!dramatically increase later on).
IHave you seen any pattern when it comes to versions of IE, i.e. 5.0, 5.1
	and 5.2?


/Robert


-----Original Message-----
<From: Peter-Paul Koch [mailto:gassinaumasis@hotmail.com]=20
Sent: den 25 april 2003 14:52
.To: Robert Nyman; css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
4Subject: Re: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?




F>Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only, which=20
#>browsers are the most common etc?

+My own stats, for what they're worth, say:

Ecxplorer 5    69%
Safari         15%
Mozilla         6%
Netscape 6      4%
Netscape 4      4%
Explorer 4      2%

CNote that these numbers are mainly from my development sites which
attract a=20
7higher share of non-IE browsers than the average site.

KWhichever stats you'll find, please keep in mind that Safari's share is=20
Igoing to rise dramatically when it becomes the default browser for OS X.

IAny Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and=20
Safari.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
4http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/ Column "Keep it Simple":
1http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
=MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.=20
+http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/virus
T13:43:44.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [62]
=================
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:14:06 +0000
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>


>Interesting!
H>Especially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
">dramatically increase later on).

AMy Safari stats are especially unreliable because I posted some 
LSafari-related material pretty soon after the beta was released. Naturally 
Hgeeky Safari users first take a look at sites discussing their beloved 
	browser.

LFor the non-geeky sites I keep track of the score is between 2 and 10 % of 
4all Mac users (and I find that 10% strangely high).

K>Have you seen any pattern when it comes to versions of IE, i.e. 5.0, 5.1 

>and 5.2?

Nope.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
>Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 
,http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
T13:43:44.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [63]
=================
5From: WBoyett at smtp.co.alachua.fl.us (Will Boyett)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:56:18 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Path Positioning Problem.
1Message-ID: <sea90654.037@smtp.co.alachua.fl.us>

Holly et all;

GFirst off, let me say that I recieved an off-list reply from Jason Van
FPelt which has not only served as the foundation for my correction of
Dthe issue I was having, but has also served to illuminate whole new
Iaspects of CSS which I only dimly understood before... a classic example
Cof a working example being worth volumes of technical explanation.

DThat said, I would be happy to provide a link to the site, and I do
Iwelcome other construcitve commentary. My goal/directive is to provide a
Every accessible site using CSS layout, and favoring a "Red White and
IBlue" palette.  I have inherited a lot of code from previous webmasters,
Eand as the redesign is only one of my job duties, I have not had the
Itime to devote to removing all of the older legacy elements to date. The
Imain page (which does not use the path statement I wrote for help on) is
in my signature.

Chttp://elections.alachua.fl.us/welcome.html is one of the pages in
Hwhich the code can be seen. The "problem code" was the red outlined box
Hwith the path statement and the site map link. It now has new code, and
works as originally intended.


William Dove Boyett
#Alachua County Elections Webmaster
"http://elections.co.alachua.fl.us
8-------------------------------------------------------
!"The user owns the Back button."
4-- Dr. Jakob Nielsen, http://www.useit.com/alertbox

@>>> Holly Bergevin <holnkids@netscape.net> 04/25/03 01:47AM >>>
[snip snip]
DNow I have to apologize, because even with your explanation and the
Hcode you provided, you lost me. Is it possible for you to provide a URL
Hto the page in question so we can give it a look see? If the content is
Frestricted, strip it out and replace it with dummy text. Working with
Ethe actual page generally offers the best opportunity for someone to
provide helpful advice.

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
1http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380 

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
9http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 
G______________________________________________________________________
+css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] 
3http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d 
DSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ 


.Inbound Mail Scanned by Mcafee Web Appliance.




/OutBound Mail Scanned by Mcafee Web Appliance.

T13:43:44.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [64]
=================
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:13:00 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741F4@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

EI have the following style, which "works" in all browsers outside of
Netscape 4.76:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
  background-color: #FFE;
  border-top:  1px solid #EEE;
  border-left: 1px solid #EEE;
!  border-bottom: 1px solid #333;
!  border-right:  1px solid #777;
}

DNetscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:

  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;

KRemove them and all's well with the world, include either and it generates
errors and closes.

LAny way around this outside of creating a special style sheet for Netscape?

	Thanks -

george
T13:43:44.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [65]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:21:40 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <46.381a3fa4.2bda9e74@aol.com>



LFirst I'd like to say this list has been an excellent resource to me, and I
 think everyone else will agree.


OBut I'd like to point out that lately list posters seem to be blindly posting 
to the
Llist. What I mean is, People might be forgetting that some email providers 
Olike the one I use (AOL) actually interpret HTML tags in email. Which means I 

don't see
Lthem in the context of the message, I see it as if I were reading the post 
through
a browser window.


EWhen you refer to [b] tag I see the rest of the message in bold text
Junless you use the closing [/b] tag. Oh, and try reading a message with a
heading tag in it.


MNow don't get me wrong, I don't mean to chastise the list, but this does get
>annoying. So please accept my apologies if I offended anyone.



Thank You
Curt
>From Michael_Landis at capgroup.com  Fri Apr 25 15:38:57 2003
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:38:57 -0700
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
CMessage-ID: <OFCBF69188.A61F3A48-ON88256D13.004F8FB1@capgroup.com>


George Smyth wrote:

G> I have the following style, which "works" in all browsers outside of
> Netscape 4.76:

> .NavText {
>   font-size: 0.7em;
>   text-align: left;
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;
>   background-color: #FFE;
!>   border-top:  1px solid #EEE;
!>   border-left: 1px solid #EEE;
#>   border-bottom: 1px solid #333;
#>   border-right:  1px solid #777;
> }
>
F> Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
>
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;

INetscape 4 tends to act like the proverbial straw-carrying camel. We all
Gknow it is buggy to one extent or another, but each bug-tripping style
Kdeclaration seems to add a little bit more to its instability. If too many
Kbuggy declarations (that is, valid CSS that causes bugs in NS 4) appear in
Kthe CSS, it will hang, crash, and otherwise let you down when it hits that
final straw.

IIf you don't want to switch stylesheets, you might want to resort to the
HCiao NS4-hiding hack (http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CaioHack) to
Kremove enough styles to let it limp along. You may want to hide additional
;ones, so that you aren't right at the edge of instability.

KAnother alternative is to link a stylesheet that only contains styles that
Lare solid with NS 4, then import a second sheet that adds additional styles
for "good" browsers.

HTH,

MikeL
T13:43:44.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [66]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:45:34 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] Hyperlink position in NN4.7
CMessage-ID: <OF642D1E9C.73522B52-ON88256D13.0050CA54@capgroup.com>


Dave Mead wrote:

G> My footer nav runs nicely along the bottom (shortened version here):

[snip]

?> It looks fine in IE but when viewed in NN4.7 the links stack
J> one-on-top-of-another instead of side-by-side!  I've created a separate
H> style sheet for NN and removed the padding from the CSS code and this
H> bunches them all up (hence the two &nbsp; between links).  Is there a
+> way around this or is this the best fix.

GAs you have discovered, adding padding or margins to an inline element
Hconverts it to a block element in NS 4. I haven't seen a workaround for
this.

Sorry for the bad news! :-)

MikeL
T13:43:44.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [67]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:44:47 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD7@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

George Smyth wrote:
F> Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
>=20
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;
>=20
@> Remove them and all's well with the world, include either and
"> it generates errors and closes.

HYou can remove "width: auto" safely (unless a width is being inherited)
)and/or you can use Caio's Hack, like so:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
/*/*/
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
/**/
  background-color: #FFE;
  border:  1px solid #EEE;
  border-bottom-color: #333;
  border-right-color: :#777;
}

5(Note: I just shortened your border styles slightly)

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
3From ken at kpmartin.com  Fri Apr 25 16:09:05 2003
'From: ken at kpmartin.com (Ken Martin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:09:05 -0500
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
@Message-ID: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>

FI checked the wiki and didn't see anything, though I suspect this is 
probably frequently asked.

HDoes PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if 
DI need to use it in tandem with other declarations or if it simply 
doesn't work.

TIA

Ken Martin
T13:43:44.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [68]
=================
 From: jgay at tla.com (Jim Gay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:17:07 -0400
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
,In-Reply-To: <46.381a3fa4.2bda9e74@aol.com>
)Message-ID: <BACEC9B3.6927%jgay@tla.com>

P> But I'd like to point out that lately list posters seem to be blindly posting
	> to the
M> list. What I mean is, People might be forgetting that some email providers
P> like the one I use (AOL) actually interpret HTML tags in email. Which means I
> don't see
M> them in the context of the message, I see it as if I were reading the post

> through
> a browser window.

HI'm new here, but looking at the policies, although it says no html/rtf
Kemail, I don't think that excludes any html code at all. I think its a bit
Lmuch to ask a list about code of a few hundred people to stop writing about
their code in some context.
Jperhaps the problem is in the AOL client rendering html when it shouldn't
4be? (are you set to receive Plain or MIME content?)

please correct me if I'm wrong
Jperhaps I need more clarity on the policy. should I exclude all html when
I'm next tempted to post?

-jim
T13:43:44.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [69]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:30:24 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
7Message-ID: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

MDoes anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can change
the list-item-marker's color?

JI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

Anyone?

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

T13:43:44.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [70]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:31:20 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ken Martin wrote:
I> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

B(Apologies if someone has answered this, my email is slow lately)

ANo support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
,<http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
&<http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
>From Dwayne.Conyers at veridian.com  Fri Apr 25 16:41:46 2003
7From: Dwayne.Conyers at veridian.com (Conyers, Dwayne)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:41:46 -0400
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
FMessage-ID: <E4C14A1BFBDD144490EAF53424176D6D11CF46@FCVAMAIL.mrj.com>

HI think enclosing code in <pre></pre> tags should alleviate that issue.

--
Dwacon
www.dwacon.com
<From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 25 16:46:49 2003
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:46:49 +0000
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F69qVDokSUIwMw0000d806@hotmail.com>

H> > Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
> >
> >   width: auto;
> >   padding: 2px;
> >
B> > Remove them and all's well with the world, include either and
$> > it generates errors and closes.
>
I>You can remove "width: auto" safely (unless a width is being inherited)
*>and/or you can use Caio's Hack, like so:

LWhile that is certainly true, my guess is that the border declarations are 
Iactually the problem. NN4 has a long and nasty history of problems with 
	borders.

7Try your original style sheet, but change the borders:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
  background-color: #FFE;
  border: 1px solid #EEE;
  border-bottom-color: #333;
  border-right-color:  #777;
}

GIn a few similar cases I found that using the shorthand notations for 
L'border-left', 'border-right' etc. (though not for 'border' itself) causes 
NN4 problems.

?But maybe I'm wrong and this is an entirely different problem.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
;MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
)http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
T13:43:44.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [71]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:47:11 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
,Message-ID: <199.194e6936.2bdab27f@aol.com>

NIn a message dated 4/25/2003 11:17:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, jgay@tla.com 
writes:


5>be? (are you set to receive Plain or MIME content?)


DI only use AOL for a connection to the Internet and to receive mail
Aso I really don't no how to set that, or even if I can with AOL.

 >please correct me if I'm wrong
K>perhaps I need more clarity on the policy. should I exclude all html when
>I'm next tempted to post?

HNo, the tags that effect my mail are heading, bold, italics, typewriter
Ktype, paragraphs, break, and such that refer specifically to font control.

IUL, li, span, div, and others that refer to structure and css don't get 

rendered.
(I see the tag itself, not it's effects.

JBy the way, I didn't type the subject line. My brother did. I don't write
Ksubjects until I ready to send the mail. He tried to replicate the subject
Elines of the css mail program and didnt know it was do automatically
( thought it was funny)

Curt
7From gary at star-chaser.com  Fri Apr 25 17:01:57 2003
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:57 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
AIn-Reply-To: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>
@References: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA95BF5.4040005@star-chaser.com>

Ken Martin wrote:
H> I checked the wiki and didn't see anything, though I suspect this is 
> probably frequently asked.
> 
L> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if I 
L> need to use it in tandem with other declarations or if it simply doesn't 
> work.
> 

HIt only supports position:fixed on backgrounds. You can get it to work 
in two ways.

Javascript
*http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html

conditional comments
"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

HTH
Gary

-- 
Gary Bland
StarChaser Web Architecture
http://www.star-chaser.com
 Building Tomorrow's World Today

The Nemesis Project
http://nemesis1.f2o.org
One Stop CSS
T13:43:44.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [72]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:04:44 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
6Message-ID: <556DFCA4.3DC753BE.009CE500@netscape.net>

("Jason Estes" <ckestes@bewb.org> wrote:

P>Does anyone know, I didn't see it in �the CSS spec, if or how you can change
>the list-item-marker's color?

WHi Jason - Did you try setting the color for the unordered list and/or the list items?
ul, li {color: #800080}

/My quick test worked on IE6, Moz and Op7 WinXP

HTH,

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
3From dmead at optiem.com  Fri Apr 25 17:02:56 2003
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:02:56 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E928E@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

FI achieved the effect I think you're after by calling the marker as a
graphic in my CSS file:=20

*   list-style-image: url(images/dot.gif);

Hope this helps.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
,From: Jason Estes [mailto:ckestes@bewb.org]
&Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:30 AM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color


FDoes anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can
change
the list-item-marker's color?

DI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my
text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

Anyone?

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
<From asparber at projectseven.com  Fri Apr 25 17:09:03 2003
0From: asparber at projectseven.com (Al Sparber)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:09:03 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
3Message-ID: <004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL>


Here're a couple more:
Ehttp://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
problematic on Mac)

Bhttp://www.flevooware.nl/dreamweaver/#PersistentLayers (scripted)

Al Sparber
?http://www.projectseven.com - Extensions | DW FAQs | Tutorials
9Co-Author: Dreamweaver MX: Building on Solid Foundations



From: "Saila, Craig"

Ken Martin wrote:
I> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

B(Apologies if someone has answered this, my email is slow lately)

ANo support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
,<http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
&<http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>


T13:43:44.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [73]
=================
<From: Jason.Gennaro at jus.gov.on.ca (Gennaro, Jason (JUS))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:09:52 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
DMessage-ID: <419FB3B69D66D311AC120008C79138C0169906BD@JUS00AEX0315>


7On Friday, April 25, 2003 11:30 AM, Jason Estes wrote:

	<sniped>

JI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.


4Add the color to the ul and that should work, i.e.:

ul { color: blue }

,Worked for me in Moz 1.3 and IE 5.5 on W.2K

Jason
	
/From jgay at tla.com  Fri Apr 25 17:16:02 2003
 From: jgay at tla.com (Jim Gay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:16:02 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
8In-Reply-To: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
)Message-ID: <BACED782.692F%jgay@tla.com>

O> Does anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can change
 > the list-item-marker's color?
> 
L> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
;> but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
> 

2http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#lists

Iyou can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
Icorresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image
T13:43:44.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [74]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:16:25 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
6Message-ID: <0CC778E0.33459481.009CE500@netscape.net>

%Ken Martin <ken@kpmartin.com> wrote:

$>Does PC IE support position:fixed?

8"Saila, Craig" <Craig.Saila@bgminteractive.com> wrote: 

B>No support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
-><http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
'><http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

�Hi Ken - In addition to Craig's JavaScript suggestions there is a way to emulate position: fixed for IE. It's been called the Bednarz hack or the Ghost hack. See -
"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

HTH,

~holly 

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Fri Apr 25 17:30:11 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:30:11 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
)References: <BACED782.692F%jgay@tla.com>
7Message-ID: <006e01c30b47$f1ed2520$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

K> you can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
K> corresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image
> 

=Technically I guess you could if you did something like this

B<li style="color:red"><span style="color:#000;">sdaf </span></li>

1then you end up with red bullets and black text.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org 

T13:43:44.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [75]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:18:54 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
8In-Reply-To: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
7References: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
4Message-ID: <116106318348.20030425111854@attbi.com>

6Jason wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 10:30:24 AM:

G> Does anyone know, I didn't see it in the CSS spec, if or how you can
'> change the list-item-marker's color?

F> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my
A> text, but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

#If you're using generated content:

    li:before{color:#000}

DOtherwise I'd need to check. It may be unspecified, or it may match
Dthe list-item's color. I don't think there's a special way of doing
it, though.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:44.886 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [76]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
AIn-Reply-To: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
LMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304250930390.2597-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

*On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Gavin Kistner wrote:

F> Forgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the
>> browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
2> http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

HThe 'default' value is pretty loose, such that actually pretty much all
the renderings are correct.

EHowever, having said that, the intention of the Mozilla guys is that
F'default' use the font's specified default line height, which I don't
Fthink works correctly on Mac (I know it doesn't work exactly right on

Windows).

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
3From cs03 at combonet.se  Fri Apr 25 17:35:51 2003
(From: cs03 at combonet.se (Christina S)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:35:51 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
.Message-ID: <BACF3018.53804%cs03@combonet.se>

JOn 03-04-25 17.31, "Saila, Craig" <Craig.Saila@bgminteractive.com> wrote:

> Ken Martin wrote:
J>> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

C> No support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
.> <http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
(> <http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

 Or with a nice little css-hack:
$<http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/>
Works as a charm.

DI think it is linked somewhere from the css-wiki? (or it should be)
 
/Christina
T13:43:44.886 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [77]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:41:51 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
7In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>
6References: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>
3Message-ID: <p05210607bacf10e7b3c7@[152.3.174.98]>

>>Interesting!
I>>Especially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
#>>dramatically increase later on).
>
B>My Safari stats are especially unreliable because I posted some 
C>Safari-related material pretty soon after the beta was released. 
E>Naturally geeky Safari users first take a look at sites discussing 
>their beloved browser.
>
E>For the non-geeky sites I keep track of the score is between 2 and 
=>10 % of all Mac users (and I find that 10% strangely high).

GI work in academia with folks who are geeky, but not necessarily in a 
Gweb browser sort of way, but who are mostly Mac users.  Among the Mac 
Dpeople, a very large majority use IE 5 - about 72%, at last count. 
DThese are about evenly divided between 5.2+ on OSX and all others. 
>The next highest is NN4, at a scary 9%.  Safari has recently 
@overtaken gecko-based, with some early adopters giving me a 7% 
Dreading, while all geckos (NN6, NN7, all Mozillas and derivatives) 
=are another 6%.  IE4 has just 1%, and all others (including 
Cunidentified) account for the rest.  I have had exactly one Opera 
	visitor.

FAll this is after subtracting my own hits in development and all the 
AWindows people, including the hackers trying to get root.exe or 
Bcmd.exe to do something on my Mac server.  (Which always sort of 
makes me chuckle.)

-- 

-Adam Kuehn
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Fri Apr 25 17:57:25 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:57:25 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
DReferences: <419FB3B69D66D311AC120008C79138C0169906BD@JUS00AEX0315>
7Message-ID: <008c01c30b4b$bfe56340$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
;> but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
>
>
6> Add the color to the ul and that should work, i.e.:
>
> ul { color: blue }
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> Supported by evolt

KThanks for all the response, I got it from Holly first so I'll credit her,
/but really it was just my own stupid overlook.

KAnd to respond to this last one, technically the only reason that works is
Kcause the [li] inherits the color, but you can control the li individually
by adding the color to the li


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
1.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

T13:43:44.886 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [78]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:55:11 -0700
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
CMessage-ID: <OF2A66C6B4.16E163EC-ON88256D13.005C9BE6@capgroup.com>


Jim Gay wrote:

> Jason Estes wrote:
>
F> > Does anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you
-> > can change the list-item-marker's color?
> >
E> > I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of
F> > my text, but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
> >
>
4> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#lists
>
K> you can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
K> corresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image

JHate to say it, but it sounds like the easiest (albeit messier) way to do
Jit is to span/div content inside of the li tags to override the colors...

MikeL
T13:43:44.886 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [79]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:24:28 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <ae.3e6bab30.2bdac94c@aol.com>

@In a message dated 4/25/2003 1:23:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
$Dwayne.Conyers@veridian.com writes:


> 
> 
8> I think enclosing code in tags should alleviate that 
	> issue.
> 
> --
	> Dwacon
> www.dwacon.com
> 
T13:43:44.939 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [80]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:13:51 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
A	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304250930390.2597-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
2Message-ID: <009e01c30b56$6caf59f0$6401a8c0@yoda>

,> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Gavin Kistner wrote:
>
H> > Forgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the
@> > browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
4> > http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

OAs you've learned, the default line-height is determined by the UA with the W3
Irecommendation that it be between a factor of 1 to 1.2 of the font-size.

HTo override the default UA treatment, you can simply set your preferred
Pline-height in the ICB of the document and let the cascade naturally adjust. Be
Laware though, that you should set line-heights as a factor rather than in a
specific unit. For example,

html, body {
Kfont-size: 16px /*I'm not promoting fixed sizes, just making an example.*/
line-height: 18px;
}

Nwill be problematic when your long unstylyed <h1> wraps - effectively doing a
Qfont-size of about 2x the default (32px) but cascading the 18px line-height. The
Bwrapped lines are going to overlap. However, if you use a factor,

html, body {
Kfont-size: 16px /*I'm not promoting fixed sizes, just making an example.*/
line-height: 1.2;
}

Kthe line-height will cascade appropriately for in each descendent element.

"So, if on your test page, you use

.col1 p {line-height:1;}
.col2 p {line-height:1.1;}
.col3 p {line-height:1.2;}

,you'll find much better x-browser behavior.

Lonnie
T13:43:44.940 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [81]
=================
3From: marc.richards at verizon.net (Marc Richards)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:53:44 -0400
@Subject: [css-d] Mozilla isn't pulling css pages from the cache
MIn-Reply-To: <20030403112504.PVKS1042.mta018.verizon.net@acornparenting.org>
4Message-ID: <000201c30b5b$ff8658f0$0100000a@diablo>

Hi,

@I have been doing some testing recently that involved careful =
examination of
Imy http headers. I have noticed that Mozilla ALWAYS gets a fresh copy of
Eexternal CSS pages (both imported and linked) when navigating thru =
various
Fweb pages (zeldman.com, centricle.com, my own internal site).  This =
	seems to
Hgo against one of the major benefits of CSS (less bandwidth).  I tested
Iusing Internet Explorer 6 and it caches the pages just fine. Has any one
Delse noticed this?  I am using Mozilla 1.3 on windows XP with the =
default
cache settings.

Marc=20

T13:43:44.940 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [82]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:28:00 -0500
Subject: [css-d] 
G Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?)
7In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
6References: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA98C40.3000802@cookiecrook.com>

Peter-Paul Koch wrote:
> 
I> Any Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and 

> Safari.

HSpeaking of which, the meetup.com website styles dreadfully in Safari, 
Hso it kind of throws an ironic wrench at the web standards meetup idea 
,doesn't it? http://webstandards.meetup.com/

GAlso, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is 
Dcancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so 
Iprematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas and 
Gstill want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll 
Jarrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may be 
 interested in an Austin meetup.

Cheers,
James Craig

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:44.940 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [83]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:17:57 -0500
FSubject: [css-d]  Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats for
	browsers on Mac?)
6References: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
$	<3EA98C40.3000802@cookiecrook.com>
7Message-ID: <00e301c30b67$c3454660$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

> 
I> Also, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is 
F> cancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so 
K> prematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas and 
I> still want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll 
L> arrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may be 
"> interested in an Austin meetup.
> 

> Cheers,
> James Craig


LAt least you have people in Austin signed up for the webstandards.meetup.  

8I am the only person in Fort Worth signed up for it. :(

	OH well!


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org 

T13:43:44.940 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [84]
=================
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:31:57 -0400
'Subject: [css-d]  Web Standards Meetup
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A28FECC@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

BI came across this on Mr Craig's web site and decided to join the
8Cleveland one only to see the next day it cancelled :-(

6Maybe the web developers one will be better attended.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
,From: Jason Estes [mailto:ckestes@bewb.org]
%Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:18 PM
To: James Craig; 'CSS-discuss'
ESubject: Re: [css-d] Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats
forbrowsers on Mac?)


>=20
K> Also, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is=20
H> cancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so=20
F> prematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas
and=20
K> still want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll=20
H> arrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may
be=20
"> interested in an Austin meetup.
>=20

> Cheers,
> James Craig


5At least you have people in Austin signed up for the
webstandards.meetup. =20

8I am the only person in Fort Worth signed up for it. :(

	OH well!


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org=20


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
4From daniel at ionize.net  Fri Apr 25 22:06:01 2003
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:06:01 -0500
0Subject: [css-d] Help w/ IE Mac disappearing ID
>Message-ID: <B8088CA6-7761-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

Hi,

FI have been busy on a project that is almost done, but I find myself 
+deeply in need of some expertise and help.

HI'm trying to finish up a site now at: http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/

One issue remains, however:

HIn IE4, (and IE5) on the Mac (OS 9), I'm getting reports that the logo 
Iin the top left is not appearing. Unfortunately, I don't have access to 
Gan OS 9 box to test. (I tried installing it, but my monitor-- yes, my 
Gmonitor-- prevented me from doing so). In my copy of IE5 Mac on OS X, 
it renders correctly.

ICan someone w/ IE 4 or IE 5 running under OS 9 confirm that the logo is 
=not appearing? Does anyone know why this would be happening?

6The xhtml/css validates, but it *is* a tabled design.


The goods:

6default style sheet (setting #logo to display: none):
4http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/default.css
E	- I *did* try removing the link to this stylesheet and the problem 
	persists
.global style sheet that sets styles for #logo
3http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/global.css
H	- This stylesheet is linked to using imports in the second stylesheet 
Flinked (import.css). I know that the IEs in question are getting the 
Gglobal stylesheet, however, because other styles from it are rendered 
correctly.

thanks,
-daniel
T13:43:44.944 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [85]
=================
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:21:42 -0500
0Subject: [css-d] Help w/ IE Mac disappearing ID
?In-Reply-To: <B8088CA6-7761-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>
>Message-ID: <E9393B98-7763-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

!Sorry, I left out the directory:

> The goods:
>
6> http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/default.css

<http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/_library/styles/default.css

5> http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/global.css

;http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/_library/styles/global.css
T13:43:44.945 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [86]
=================
0From: valleyofmalls at yahoo.com (David Norris)
,Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:31:36 -0700 (PDT)
7Subject: [css-d] image float right issues in IE5.5 win
AMessage-ID: <20030425213136.54351.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>

�I have sliced up an image and floated it right inside a table using the method here http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/raggedfloat/demo.html I'm using the style code as follows on my slices:img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 0 0 0;} (I have enough white space on the sliced images that I don't need to add any margin for the text wrap) Looks fine it seems everywhere except IE5.5 windows, not sure about mac. In IE 5.5 there's some space between the images and the right edge of the table so it won't meet up with the edge. But if I add some negative px or em to the right margin it looks fine in IE 5.5, the image goes flush to the edge. example: img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -3px 0 0;} img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -1em 0 0;}  Is there an IE 5.5 hack or something for this?  


"---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
fThe New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.From holnkids at netscape.net  Fri Apr 25 23:26:08 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:26:08 -0400
7Subject: [css-d] image float right issues in IE5.5 win
6Message-ID: <0DC0F06E.2A589CC0.009CE500@netscape.net>

.David Norris <valleyofmalls@yahoo.com> wrote:

�>I have sliced up an image and floated it right inside a table using the method here http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/raggedfloat/demo.html I'm using the style code as follows on my slices:img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 0 0 0;} (I have enough white space on the sliced images that I don't need to add any margin for the text wrap) Looks fine it seems everywhere except IE5.5 windows, not sure about mac. In IE 5.5 there's some space between the images and the right edge of the table so it won't meet up with the edge. But if I add some negative px or em to the right margin it looks fine in IE 5.5, the image goes flush to the edge. example: img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -3px 0 0;} img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -1em 0 0;} �Is there an IE 5.5 hack or something for this? 

�Hi David - If you know it is only IE5.5 (and not IE6 also) that is doing this, you can use the Tan hack [1] to feed the negative right margin to IE5.5 which would look like this -

img.slices {
    float: right; 
    clear: right; 
8    margin: 0; /* Margin settings for most browsers */ 
    }

B* html img.slices { /*Only IE browsers see this (including Mac)*/
2    margin-right: -3px; /* Set value for IE5.5 */
<    ma\rgin-right: 0; /* Reset value for IE6 and IE5-Mac */
    }

�Otherwise (if IE6 needs the negative margin as well), try setting the "incorrect" value in the regular selector and use the child selector to reset it for the other browsers -

img.slices {
    float: right; 
    clear: right; 
    margin: 0 -3px 0 0; 
    }

)html>body img.slices {margin-right: 0; }

HTH,

~holly

[1] See: "A Modified SBMH" -
7     http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BoxModelHack

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
9From fortuneb at bellsouth.net  Fri Apr 25 23:38:11 2003
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:38:11 -0400
Subject: [css-d] site check
AReferences: <002101c30a3e$21449a20$97a4d742@charterpipeline.net>
*	<009e01c30a40$9dec4e40$73163d0a@sdig.fr>
6Message-ID: <00a801c30b7b$5a454d40$6001a8c0@felwithe>

Bnot diggin the techno on the home page. cool music, but annoying.


> ----- Original Message -----
%> From: "Ian Adams" <icadams@pe.net>
>
L> I am updating the code for my site to a standards compliant xhtml/css and
M> cannot get the style to view in Netscape 7.  The syle views fine in IE and
J> the site validates every way I can think of to test it.  The address is
> http://www.microtech.com
>
>
T13:43:44.945 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [87]
=================
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:40:10 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
6Message-ID: <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>

2can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
4From gleemax at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 23:49:00 2003
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:49:00 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7In-Reply-To: <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
References: 
J <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+ <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
4Message-ID: <151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>

6Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:

4> can you have more then one media="all" on a page?

BYes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
>media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,

G<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" media="all">
E<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:44.945 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [88]
=================
,From: epersonae at mail.com (Elaine Nelson)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:03:30 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] site check - esp. on Mac?
1Message-ID: <20030425230331.9939.qmail@mail.com>

(http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/test/pioneer/
*(links don't work, this is only a mockup)

�I've checked it on Moz 1.2.1, IE 6, Netscape 4.something and Opera 6 (all win2K), and am reasonably satisfied with the results. It's been validated all round, and passed. :)  

�Minimal style is fed to old browsers, with additional stuff for the more modern crowd.  I decided to go for the XML prolog to force IE6 into non-strict mode so I could keep using body>#whatever selectors rather than some other hack...I don't know if this causes problems elsewhere....

MA check from Mac users would be especially helpful!  Thanks for your time...

Elaine Nelson
 work: http://www.pierce.ctc.edu
"notWork: http://www.epersonae.com

-- 
;__________________________________________________________
:Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
T13:43:44.945 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [89]
=================
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:10:17 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] site check - esp. on Mac?
2In-Reply-To: <20030425230331.9939.qmail@mail.com>
>Message-ID: <1474BED5-7773-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

HOn Friday, Apr 25, 2003, at 18:03 America/Chicago, Elaine Nelson wrote:

*> http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/test/pioneer/
,> (links don't work, this is only a mockup)


Looking Good Mac Side:

[OS X]

Moz
IE 5.2
Safari
T13:43:44.945 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [90]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:56:20 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
6Message-ID: <46F927D0.13623D7A.009CE500@netscape.net>

css-discuss@plumlee.org wrote:

)>At 01:00 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>
,> >>If I try to place an image in the right
O> >>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6. �IE
9> >>refuses to display the content in that third column.

$>http://wgi.org/2003/indexmac2.php 

`Hi Scott - I played around some more with your example and found a few more interesting things.

�It seems putting a top border on the div.column-three-content will kill the problem without using the float, as long as the image is wrapped inside something else. You could put it in another div, or a paragraph, either one seemed to work. 

�What I did was give the div.column-three-content a {border-top: 1px solid #6666ff;} which is the same color as the background of the column. I then gave each of the other div.column-xxx-content a top border the same color as their backgrounds, and 1px high to balance things between the columns. This works great in the example you provided.

�Unfortunately, what you will find if you put content in the middle div is that the image gets pushed below the bottom of the content level of the middle div, though it still does display. 

�Another thing I tried which IE6 is okay with but Moz and Op aren't is to give the image a margin property that looks like img {margin: 0 -3px;} IE6 happily centers the image and displays it, too. Unfortunately, Moz and Op drag the thing to the left 3px. You can use a child selector to reset the margin value for the other browsers - html>body img {margin: 0;}

�I'm afraid this is going to be a case of pick your hack. The float one isn't that bad, especially if the image is going to take up the entire width of that right side div and since you said it isn't causing problems for Moz and Op7.  

�So after all this, my suggestion is to go with the float. It seems the easiest way to deal with the various problems that are encountered. Be aware that if you need to put content in the right div *before* the image, the image will disappear again, even with the float. This time it's hiding behind the background, so add [img] to the selector that has the {p\osition: relative;} property. If you don't want a background on the right div, you won't need the pos:rel.

+In brief, my suggestion looks like this - 

.box-wrap, .columns-float, 
.column-one, .column-two, 
.h2, .column-three, img {p\osition: relative;}

img { float: left;}

K>I appreciate the advice.  I think I might have a "immovable object meets 
?>the irresistible force" complex about this problem right now.

�I'm not sure which one of those is you and which is IE6, but I do agree this is a frustrating problem, and one that is going to require the application of a(nother) hack to solve. 

+Not sure I was much help this time, sorry,

~holly


C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
7From ehmer at pacific.net.au  Sat Apr 26 06:00:43 2003
5From: ehmer at pacific.net.au (David & Angela Ehmer)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:00:43 +1000
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem
3Message-ID: <005301c30bb0$cca941e0$5bf88fcb@ehmer>

HI have developed a horizontal menu system which works okay except that;

GExtra space appears below the horizontal menu, both when the dropdowns
Jappear and when they don't.  Not sure where this is coming from or how to
Ieliminate it. Think it may be related to the cumulative space the 3 drop
Kdowns take up.  Also the menus appear a bit touchy and disappear sometimes
3when they shouldn't (probably Javascript problem!)

MNote, I have used relative positioning as I want the page to be centred on a
$screen with resolution of 1024x768.

%Appreciate any suggestions.  See URL

,http://www.netnoise.com.au/acpchn/index.php

David
T13:43:44.946 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [91]
=================
1From: mark.r.stevens at attbi.com (markinoregon)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:20:19 -0700
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem
4In-Reply-To: <005301c30bb0$cca941e0$5bf88fcb@ehmer>
DMessage-ID: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAGEGICAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>


AYeah, the menu's are touchy here on XP/IE6 Broadband connection,
Ealso i noticed your australian map, on the right side of the header,
#is a few pixels off from the text.
-----Original Message-----
*From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org
H[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org]On Behalf Of David & Angela
Ehmer
&Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 10:01 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem


HI have developed a horizontal menu system which works okay except that;

GExtra space appears below the horizontal menu, both when the dropdowns
Jappear and when they don't.  Not sure where this is coming from or how to
Ieliminate it. Think it may be related to the cumulative space the 3 drop
Kdowns take up.  Also the menus appear a bit touchy and disappear sometimes
3when they shouldn't (probably Javascript problem!)

MNote, I have used relative positioning as I want the page to be centred on a
$screen with resolution of 1024x768.

%Appreciate any suggestions.  See URL

,http://www.netnoise.com.au/acpchn/index.php

David

G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
T13:43:44.949 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [92]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:51:53 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C2348@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

H> I work in academia with folks who are geeky, but not necessarily in a
H> web browser sort of way, but who are mostly Mac users.  Among the Mac
E> people, a very large majority use IE 5 - about 72%, at last count.
E> These are about evenly divided between 5.2+ on OSX and all others.
?> The next highest is NN4, at a scary 9%.  Safari has recently
A> overtaken gecko-based, with some early adopters giving me a 7%
E> reading, while all geckos (NN6, NN7, all Mozillas and derivatives)
>> are another 6%.  IE4 has just 1%, and all others (including
F> unidentified) account for the rest.  I have had exactly one Opera =
	visitor.

=20
Thanks Adam,
=20
*I find this very interesting information!
&And yes, 9% with NS4 is really scary!
=20
=20
/Robert
=20
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Sat Apr 26 12:48:09 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:48:09 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <1051268977.6929@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051357689.16411@tweek.sebduggan.com>



<>> I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
C>> whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
<>> the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:
> 
O> Very nice Steve - this seems to be the most elegant solution so far - and it
4> seems to work in every browser I've thrown it at!
> 
*> I'll be changing my own code to this...

Final word on this...

GI tested my page on a friend's Linux box, on Konqueror. Unfortunately,
LKonqueror currently only supports white-space:pre for PRE and XMP elements.
LHowever, even the earlier beta of Safari handles it correctly, so it should
1find its way in to the KHTML source fairly soon.

F(Also, it wasn't a disastrous mis-rendering - and Konqueror users are
6probably a very small minority of my site's traffic).


Seb

T13:43:44.950 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [93]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:24:43 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] Quick thank you
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426112216.00ba3028@cbiweb.com>

MJust wanted to say thanks to those who gave me suggestions the other day on 
Imaking lists with mixed styles. I haven't been able to try them out yet 
Lbecause I got distracted with another project. But I will let you know how 
$it works out when I get back to it.

Thanks!

Joel
T13:43:44.950 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [94]
=================
=From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rick_Hurst?=)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:21:10 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
EMessage-ID: <mailman.163.1051374077.541.css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>

Nfor some reason this layout is missing the left border when displayed in IE5=
N mac=2E The odd thing is that the space has been left for the border, but no=
> colour is showing=2E Any ideas why, or how I might fix it=3F

7http://www=2Ehypothecate=2Eco=2Euk/css=5Ftest/v8=2Ehtm


T13:43:44.950 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [95]
=================
.From: steven at sjknet.com (Steven Kallstrom)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:47:17 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
2Message-ID: <000e01c30c13$829c7730$6401a8c0@MAIN>

CSS Experts,

:	I am working on a layout where I have a large graphic as
Fbackground, and menu.  I don't want to reload that since it is static
Dthroughout, so I decided to just make it so that I would reload the
content area.

%http://12.221.231.252/test/test.html

F1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
HCSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
Hto do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
4in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?

F2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
Iusing an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the content inside
Hthe div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
Ffile...  I wish they had something like <div src="page"> sort of like
Aiframes, but you are simply change what is inbetween the divs...

what do you think?

Thanks a ton,

Steven J. Kallstrom

T13:43:44.950 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [96]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:50:21 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>

KIf this has been asked recently, I apologize for the repeat. Feel free to 
%direct me to the thread if you like.

JI've been doing some testing with ems and %'s. I like the versatility of 
Iboth, but which is better in today's browser compatibility climate? I'm 
Hconcerned mostly about consistent results while avoiding the tiny text 
Lsyndrome that can occur on a Mac. (I don't have a Mac, so all my design is 
PC oriented.)

LMy main goal is to design with less-than-default-size text, but still give 
0users the ability to change it if they want to.

TIA,

Joel
T13:43:44.950 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [97]
=================
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:55:04 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+	<00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
)	<151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>
6Message-ID: <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>

#can you have more then one import?


----- Original Message ----- 
'From: "John Lewis" <gleemax@attbi.com>
"To: <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
%Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 6:49 PM
-Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import


8> Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:
> 
6> > can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
> 
D> Yes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
@> media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,
> 
I> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" media="all">
G> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">
> 
> -- 
> John Lewis
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
;From matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com  Sat Apr 26 19:52:00 2003
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:52:00 +0100
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
7Message-ID: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>

'http://blogstreetjournal.com/index.php

MWorks fine in all win browsers I've been able to download, no Mac, and Linux
Ktill I get a spare day, so if any one with either of these platforms could
'check it for me, I'd be most grateful.

Matt

-- 

Khttp://unitedheroes.net/blogs/matt/ - usually updated, occasionally funny,
sometimes even informative!
T13:43:44.950 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [98]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:28 +0100
1Subject: FW:RE:  [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7Message-ID: <000d01c30c25$6ac11d70$0100007f@localhost>

Not sent to the list.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:48 PM
To: 'Brandy (mediadiva)'
-Subject: RE: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import


I don't think so . . .

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
<}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of 
}Brandy (mediadiva)
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 6:55 PM
-}To: John Lewis; css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
.}Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
}
}
$}can you have more then one import?
}
}
}----- Original Message ----- 
(}From: "John Lewis" <gleemax@attbi.com>
#}To: <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
&}Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 6:49 PM
.}Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
}
}
9}> Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:
}> 
7}> > can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
}> 
E}> Yes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
A}> media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,
}> 
>}> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" 
}media="all">
H}> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">
}> 
}> -- 
}> John Lewis
}> 
}> 
H}______________________________________________________________________
-}> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
5}> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
F}> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

T13:43:44.951 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [99]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:57 +0100
%Subject: FW: [css-d] ems or percent?
7Message-ID: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>

Damn outlook.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:45 PM
To: 'Joel Young'
%Subject: RE: [css-d] ems or percent?


Joel,

HThe way I've found to use these (and avoid the broken box model as much
;as possible) it to decale the follwing in you style sheet:

body {
	font-size: 100%;
}

P (or your divs or whatever) {
	font-size: 0.8em;
	line-height: 1.166667em;
}

DThis give you the equivalent of 12px font sizing, and a 17.5px line
height.

CThe body { font-size: 100%; } should avoid it inheriting, as would
Eexplicitly declaring all tags you use with { font-size:0.8em; } This
Fworks in every windows browser that I've been able to find a download
?for, though I don't own to a mac, so I don't know about those.

"For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.

Matt

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
F}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Joel Young
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 6:50 PM
!}To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
"}Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
}
}
?}If this has been asked recently, I apologize for the repeat. 
}Feel free to 
&}direct me to the thread if you like.
}
<}I've been doing some testing with ems and %'s. I like the 
}versatility of 
=}both, but which is better in today's browser compatibility 
}climate? I'm 
I}concerned mostly about consistent results while avoiding the tiny text 
@}syndrome that can occur on a Mac. (I don't have a Mac, so all 
}my design is 
}PC oriented.)
}
>}My main goal is to design with less-than-default-size text, 
}but still give 
1}users the ability to change it if they want to.
}
}TIA,
}
}Joel
}
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

U13:43:44.951 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [100]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:54:58 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7In-Reply-To: <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>
References: 
J <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+ <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
) <151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>
+ <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>
4Message-ID: <148201738897.20030426135458@attbi.com>

9Brandy wrote on Saturday, April 26, 2003 at 12:55:04 PM:

%> can you have more then one import?

CYes, with the caveat that all @import rules must appear before all
(other rules. For example, this is okay:

    @import "main.css";
    @import "print.css" print;
    h1{font-size:3em}

DAlso, keep in mind that an imported style sheet without a specified
Fmedia, like the first rule in the above example, has an implied media

of "all".

-- 
John Lewis
U13:43:44.952 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [101]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:42 +0100
,Subject: FW: [css-d] inline frame border...
7Message-ID: <000e01c30c25$6fead4d0$0100007f@localhost>

And again.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:47 PM
To: 'Steven Kallstrom'
,Subject: RE: [css-d] inline frame border...


EBest of my knowledge, only framesets (urgh) or iframes will give you
Dthis action. Don't know how to remove the IE iframe border with CSS
though.

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
<}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of 
}Steven Kallstrom
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 5:47 PM
}To: 'CSS List'
)}Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
}
}
}CSS Experts,
}
;}	I am working on a layout where I have a large graphic as
G}background, and menu.  I don't want to reload that since it is static
E}throughout, so I decided to just make it so that I would reload the
}content area.
}
&}http://12.221.231.252/test/test.html
}
G}1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
I}CSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
I}to do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
5}in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?
}
G}2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
<}using an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the 
}content inside
I}the div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
G}file...  I wish they had something like <div src="page"> sort of like
B}iframes, but you are simply change what is inbetween the divs...
}
}what do you think?
}
}Thanks a ton,
}
}Steven J. Kallstrom
}
}
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

U13:43:44.952 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [102]
=================
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:02:49 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
2References: <000e01c30c13$829c7730$6401a8c0@MAIN>
8Message-ID: <005701c30c26$6e5d1370$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

H| 1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
J| CSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
J| to do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
6| in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?

BNot that I know of. This has been a complaint since IE3. In fact,
>IFRAMEs in IE have other default attributes that override any
2CSS property, sometimes with nasty consequences. 


H| 2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
K| using an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the content inside
J| the div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
| file... 


@No again. You may want to experiment using the OBJECT tag. For 
0instance, this works in IE5/Win and Netscape 7:

B<object data="another.htm" type="text/html" id="yourID"></object>

ENote that the object tag must be given an explicit height and width,
Deither as attributes or thru the CSS. Note also that here again, IE
insists on a border.

Brett


U13:43:44.952 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [103]
=================
RFrom: info at brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk (Brighton Freelance Web Design)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:21:56 +0100
2Subject: [css-d] How to center an image using CSS
WMessage-ID: <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>


Hi there,

8I'm trying to center the image at the top of this page.

Ahttp://www.brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk/szoo/template.htm

using the following code.

.logo {
	width: 333px;
	margin-right: auto;
	margin-left: auto;
	margin-bottom: 55px;
	text-align: center;
}

*It works on IE5.5 Mac but not on IE6 Win.

BAny ideas how I can get it to center on the most common browsers?

Andy
U13:43:44.952 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [104]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:23:50 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
7References: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
"Message-ID: <3EAADCC6.C4A@ij.net>

Matthew Davey wrote:
 
J> The way I've found to use these (and avoid the broken box model as much
=> as possible) it to decale the follwing in you style sheet:
 
	> body {
>         font-size: 100%;
> }
 
!> P (or your divs or whatever) {
>         font-size: 0.8em;
#>         line-height: 1.166667em;
> }
 
3> This give you the equivalent of 12px font sizing

G.8em gives a little over a half size character box on a system that is
Iusing the windoze common default of 12pt/16px@96DPI. (144 dot box vs 256
dot box; 56.25%).
 
$> For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.

FFor what reference? 15px=1em if and only if the default size is 15px,
Gwhich is not the default case for any browser as a virgin installation
Gon any virgin PC OS. Netscape 4, IE6 & Mozilla/Netscape 6+ all default
Eto 16px/12pt. Windoze defaults to 96DPI. For IE6 you can see the few
;instances where 15px would be the default in the charts at
;http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:44.953 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [105]
=================
(From: knaepkens.luc at pandora.be (Luc)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:28:28 +0200
%Subject: FW: [css-d] ems or percent?
8In-Reply-To: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
7References: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
4Message-ID: <12423476367.20030426212828@pandora.be>

Good evening Matthew,  
    

AIt was foretold that on 26-4-2003 @ 19:55:57 GMT+0100 (which was
320:55:57 where I live) Matthew Davey would mumble:

<snipped a bit>

&MD> For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.
  
GMatthew,  how  do  you  get  that value of 15px? In your example there
/aren't  any  px set, only 100% (body) and ems.

GI  thought  that  the  'em'  unit  equals  the  computed  value of the
G'font-size'  property  of the element on which it is used, except when
Git  occurs  in  the  value of the 'font-size' property itself. In that
7case it refers to the font size of the parent element.

;Or am i missing something fundamental here? (probably yes)
 
Best regards,
 Luc

---------------------------------------------
APowered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build
E2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera.

G"Men were made for war. Without it they wandered greyly about, getting
Dunder the feet of the women, who were trying to organize the really
0important things of life." - Alice Thomas Ellis
---------------------------------------------











U13:43:44.953 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [106]
=================
'From: david at lenef.com (David Lenef)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:44:00 -0500
,Subject: [css-d] Disappearing Div on Mac IE
;Message-ID: <NFBBKJNGEDABMFKHCIFEAECKEAAA.david@lenef.com>

!http://Lenef.com/elite/prodtest/
:(Don't bother clicking the button - it doesn't work yet.)

KPlease refer to the above page on which I'm testing a product page layout.
KOn NetMechanic's Browser Photo, the right-hand content div does not appear
Kin Mac IE 5.0 screenshots, and most of it is way off the right edge of the
viewport on Mac IE 4.5.

EIt's supposed to be a 2-column layout with photos down the left side
I(float:left) and text specs on the right (margin-left used to create the
Kright column effect and stay out of the way of the photos). Style sheet is
Lembedded in the page. Any ideas what I need to do to accommodate Mac users?

FIt will eventually be dropped into a container div on the final page.

K(BTW, Mac users represent a miniscule portion of this site's audience, but
Hif one arrives at the page, they need to at least see the information.)

David Lenef
david@lenef.com
http://Lenef.com

U13:43:44.953 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [107]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:48:17 -0400
2Subject: [css-d] How to center an image using CSS
XIn-Reply-To: <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>
References: 
L <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>
6Message-ID: <63-1549435046.20030426154817@mrclay.org>

6Saturday, April 26, 2003, 3:21:56 PM, Brighton wrote:
>BFWD> I'm trying to center the image at the top of this page.
GBFWD> http://www.brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk/szoo/template.htm

ADrop the width and l/r margins on .logo.  It will expand to 100%
Dnaturally and text-align will do its job.  You can also use IDs for
/elements that only appear once in a document..

<div id="logo">
D   <img src="images/logos/home_logo.jpg" width="333" height="96" />
</div>

#logo {
    margin-bottom: 55px;
    text-align: center;
}

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
U13:43:44.957 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [108]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>

Joel,
FI've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font 
7size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...

body {  font-size: 76%; }

LThen, for different sections (divs) I set the font size to ems. Examples...

#middle { font-size: 1em; }
#left { font:-size: .9em }

?I also set the font size by ems for other elements. Example...

h1 { font-size: 2em; }

CThis allows the fonts to resize in ems in relation to the first % 
Fdeclaration. Whether it works for you, or not I don't  know. You may 
Jwant to try it and experiment changing % and em sizes and see if you can 
tweek it to your needs.
--
Tony
U13:43:44.957 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [109]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:06:28 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
G> I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
9> size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>
> body {  font-size: 76%; }

Why?

EI, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
Apage's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
1From mrmazda at ij.net  Sat Apr 26 21:18:34 2003
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:18:34 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>

Ian Hickson wrote:
 
*> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:

I> > I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
;> > size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
 
> Why?
 
G> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

HShhhhh! You, of all people, should know better. For people like you and
Gme, this is how we want inconsiderate web designers to make their text
Atiny. When they use 'body {font-size: 76%;}', it allows our user
Hstylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100% !important;}' to put it back how
Ait belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in body and shrink everything
Eelsewhere, our simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing
something?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:44.957 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [110]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:26:05 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
 <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>

Ian,
IUntimately almost anyone can set their font size as a user, even if the 
Epage is built to display at pixels. The designer sets the size they 
Ithink is best. After that, its out of their hands and the viewer can do 
Cas they wish. I picked up the method I suggest from Owen Briggs...

Ahttp://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html

JIt made sense to me, so I went with it. He gives some good reasons as to 
why he uses % and ems.

GAs usual, the wiki for this list points to some excellent resources...

.http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FontSize
--
Tony

Ian Hickson wrote:

)>On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>  
>
G>>I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
9>>size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>>
>>body {  font-size: 76%; }
>>    
>>
>
>Why?
>
F>I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
B>page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
>  
>
U13:43:44.958 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [111]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261322140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:
> > >
 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }
> >
I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
2> Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better.

Hehe.


D> For people like you and me, this is how we want inconsiderate web
E> designers to make their text tiny. When they use 'body {font-size:
D> 76%;}', it allows our user stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100%
I> !important;}' to put it back how it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in
I> body and shrink everything elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule
&> can't work. Am I missing something?

II used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
to use it.

It doesn't work.

JThe problem is that many people write pages that are sized in pixels, and
Hwhen you override their setting on body, you end up making entire pages
unreadable.

FI guess it's better for authors to make their pages unreadable in one
Kplace (the body rule above) rather than all over though, as you point out.
KI just wish I understood why people are so obsessed with making their text
tiny.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
/From ian at hixie.ch  Sat Apr 26 21:32:19 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261328180.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
K> It made sense to me, so I went with it. He gives some good reasons as to
> why he uses % and ems.

JOh I wasn't disagreeing with using %s and ems -- indeed I have written my
own comments on the matter:

1    http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1045789943&count=1

II'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
use better than me. :-)

#*crawls back into his ivory tower*

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
=From joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca  Sat Apr 26 21:51:21 2003
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:51:21 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

?Well, the replies to my message are certainly interesting. ;-)

JI'm not entirely new to CSS, but I am new to sizing fonts with something 
Mother than pixels (yes I decided to give control back to the user). The use 
Gof ems vs % almost seems to be a personal preference, so I guess that 
doesn't really matter.

MSo if I use body {font-size: 100%}, then the rest of the page will be sized 
Lin relation to that (i.e. 80% of 100, 75% of 100), right? Or will there be 
;some inheritance along the way under certain cirumstances?

?And does this apply to ems as well? Or do ems act differently?


MThat's a lot of questions for just one answer, eh?  -- If there is only one 
answer :-)




(At 05:18 PM 4/26/03, Felix Miata wrote:
>Ian Hickson wrote:
>
,> > On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
K> > > I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
=> > > size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>
 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
	> > Why?
>
I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
I>Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better. For people like you and
H>me, this is how we want inconsiderate web designers to make their text
B>tiny. When they use 'body {font-size: 76%;}', it allows our user
I>stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100% !important;}' to put it back how
B>it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in body and shrink everything
F>elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing
>something?
>--
?>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
?>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur
>
(>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
>
@>Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
>
H>______________________________________________________________________
+>css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3>http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D>Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
U13:43:44.958 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [112]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:57:22 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261322140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAAF2B2.7C90@ij.net>

Ian Hickson wrote:
 
*> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:

"> > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }

K> > > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
G> > > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

4> > Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better.
 
> Hehe.
 
F> > For people like you and me, this is how we want inconsiderate web
G> > designers to make their text tiny. When they use 'body {font-size:
F> > 76%;}', it allows our user stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100%
K> > !important;}' to put it back how it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in
K> > body and shrink everything elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule
(> > can't work. Am I missing something?
 
K> I used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
> to use it.
 
> It doesn't work.

Better than nothing.
 
L> The problem is that many people write pages that are sized in pixels, and
J> when you override their setting on body, you end up making entire pages
> unreadable.

GWell, body 100% doesn't impact elements sized in px. :-( But, only for
Fthe time it takes to use zoom, pending a fix someday maybe (users can
Eall hope, can't we?) for bug 4821, or even implementation of Jakob's
*suggestion "Improving Future Browsers" at
-http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20020819.html.

H> I guess it's better for authors to make their pages unreadable in one
M> place (the body rule above) rather than all over though, as you point out.

Shhhhh!

M> I just wish I understood why people are so obsessed with making their text
> tiny.

FAt URL below I've collected some reasons. Maybe you can add some I've
missed?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

FFelix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/defaultsize.html
U13:43:44.958 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [113]
=================
)From: sarah at weed.org.nz (Sarah Wedde)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:02:01 +1200
,Subject: [css-d] Disappearing Div on Mac IE
<In-Reply-To: <NFBBKJNGEDABMFKHCIFEAECKEAAA.david@lenef.com>
.Message-ID: <BAD14D09.8875%sarah@weed.org.nz>

David,

KI think you  need to set an explicit width on the left-hand div (div.photo
H{margin-bottom: 2em; width: 300px;}) in order to get Mac/IE5 to behave.

Sarah


;On 4/27/03 7:44 AM, "David Lenef" <david@lenef.com> wrote:

#> http://Lenef.com/elite/prodtest/

M> On NetMechanic's Browser Photo, the right-hand content div does not appear
M> in Mac IE 5.0 screenshots, and most of it is way off the right edge of the
> viewport on Mac IE 4.5.
 
G> It's supposed to be a 2-column layout with photos down the left side
K> (float:left) and text specs on the right (margin-left used to create the
M> right column effect and stay out of the way of the photos). Style sheet is
N> embedded in the page. Any ideas what I need to do to accommodate Mac users?
 
> David Lenef
U13:43:44.958 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [114]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:11:58 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261359140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

'On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Joel Young wrote:
>
A> And does this apply to ems as well? Or do ems act differently?

JOn the font-size property, 'em' and '%' mean exactly the same. (Well, 1em
Kis equivalent to 100%, so they mean the same thing given a factor of 100.)
JBoth of them refer to a value relative to the parent element's font-size.

IOn other properties, '%' refer to other measures, for example percentage
Gmargins refer to the width of the containing block. On the other hand,
4'em' units always refer to the element's font-size.

For example, given:

   h1 { font-size: 2em; }
   p { text-indent: 1em; }
$   blockquote { font-size: 0.5em; }

	...then:

-  <body>              User's font size (1em)
:   <h1> ... </h1>     Twice user's font size (2em of 1em)
4   <p> ... </p>       User's font size (1em of 1em)
   <blockquote>
=    <h1> ... </h1>    User's font size (2em of 0.5em of 1em)
B    <p> ... </p>      Half user's font size (1em of 0.5em of 1em)
   </blockquote>

  </body>

HTH,
-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
8From kr43m0r at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 26 22:16:26 2003
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:16:26 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
J	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
2Message-ID: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
> Why?
>
G> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

PWhy? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the OS. This
&is often in conflict with the design.

NWhat is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser, 76% is a
JVERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
,comfortable with reading text at that size.

PIf you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser to something
Qcomfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer to mimic the size of your
Emenu text by adjusting the default browser font size with a % value.

QGood for you if you've changed the default browser text size to fit your viewing
Kpleasure. By setting the default size to a percentage of the default, that
Qdesigner has opened the door for you to tweak it to suit your preference. Had he
6specified pixels, you on IE would have little choice.

Q>From my point of view, if you find MOST of the sites you visit too difficult to
Nview, then you'd be advised to seek an alternative UA if your user preference
yields no improvement.

Can you read a typical book?

PI'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs. I did 100% at
Qone point and got an equal amount of suggestions from users to reduce or enlarge
)the default size as I do now. Go figure?

Lonnie
U13:43:44.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [115]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:26:02 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
p	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
2Message-ID: <002101c30c3a$706aa6a0$6401a8c0@yoda>

Felix,

NAccording to your calculations, I'm glad it is impossible for me to ever even
meet you half-way!

Lonnie
U13:43:44.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [116]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:31:46 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261328180.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
5Message-ID: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>

7on 4/26/03 4:32 PM, Ian Hickson at ian@hixie.ch wrote:

K> I'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
> use better than me. :-)
> 
%> *crawls back into his ivory tower*

KAnd while you're up there see if you can get the W3C to drop font settings
Gfrom CSS3 - or perhaps just drop fixed-size units all together - cause
Kthat's the only way we'll never see this topic again. (and while you're at
Mit can we get some relative color units? Like "dark, darker, light, lighter"
Lor maybe that would screw with users who change their color settings to the
Dinverse of what authors expect... So maybe some way to reference an
3"opposite" color would be needed... Hehe... Sorry)

MAs an author I find a base px size with relative units off of that (as a few
Mothers have referred to in this thread) is sometimes the only sane way to do
Jthings - especially when so many other items on a page are based on pixel
Imeasurements. It just doesn't make sense not to give a default in pix to
Jmaintain the balance of a layout for the vast majority of users who don't
Mtouch their prefs. I also am generally pretty liberal with my choice of font
9sizes - using what is some circles would consider "big".

FYes using all relative units (or just not touching anything) would be
Jpreferred, but because there's such a wide gap between the many who don't
Lknow about their prefs, the few who do and take care to adjust accordingly,
Gand the clients that are paying the bills its sometimes not practical.

KAs a surfer I sometimes wish my browser(s) of choice were smarter in these
Iareas and could do things like remember text zoom settings, or alternate
Kstyle sheet choices across a site and across multiple sessions, similar to
Jhow remembers image blocking or cookies choices. I also am quick to set a
Mminimum font size of 9 or 10px when I install a browser which causes some of
Jits own problems (e.g. may hide some implied document structure, or cause
=overflow issues) but alleviates many of the worst offenders.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:44.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [117]
=================
1From: svendtofte at svendtofte.com (Svend Tofte)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:42:31 +0200
%Subject: SV: [css-d] ems or percent?
EMessage-ID: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEENOCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>

<> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge.
> X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

IJust wanted to point out, that menu text, and "reading" text, is not the
Ksame, and is not read in the same way. I would be veary of comparing maybe
Hten small words, at the top of a window, with a page full of text, it's
Itotally different sizes here. Microsoft Word has a default size of 12pt.

Just a comment :)

Svend
U13:43:44.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [118]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:15:04 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
6In-Reply-To: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:
> > >
F> > > When they use 100% in body and shrink everything elsewhere, our
G> > > simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing something?
> >
M> > I used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
 > > to use it. It doesn't work.
>
> Better than nothing.

KNot really. All it does is change one set of unreadable pages for another.
;As you point out, what is really needed is full page zoom.


#On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Lonnie wrote:
>
P> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

Interesting.

LSo basically I should set my font size to 130% of what I would want to see?

GUnfortunately this makes sites that do honour my settings way too big.


F> I'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs. I
D> did 100% at one point and got an equal amount of suggestions from
F> users to reduce or enlarge the default size as I do now. Go figure?

GIf you got the same number of complaints when doing the right thing as
Gwhen doing the wrong thing, I would suggest doing the right thing. :-)


+On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Chris Casciano wrote:
9> on 4/26/03 4:32 PM, Ian Hickson at ian@hixie.ch wrote:
>
M> > I'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
> > use better than me. :-)
> >
'> > *crawls back into his ivory tower*
>
M> And while you're up there see if you can get the W3C to drop font settings
I> from CSS3 - or perhaps just drop fixed-size units all together - cause
8> that's the only way we'll never see this topic again.

DDropping absolute units has been considered several times, but as a
Awhole the working group feels that they do have valid use cases.


E> (and while you're at it can we get some relative color units? Like
F> "dark, darker, light, lighter" or maybe that would screw with users
A> who change their color settings to the inverse of what authors
E> expect... So maybe some way to reference an "opposite" color would
> be needed... Hehe... Sorry)

EThis is also being considered, although I hear there are issues with
?how to define it. I recommend checking the www-style archives.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
2From tbounds at gci.net  Sat Apr 26 23:40:48 2003
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:40:48 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>

Ian,
GWhat do you think of the designer being so bold as to not honor other 
user settings? For instance...

EFont Type: Setting preferred font types. As with setting font size, 
Hdoing such requires the user to go out of their way to apply what they 
may prefer.

IContent Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in 
?effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.

DLink Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a 
designers preference. 
--
Tony
U13:43:44.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [119]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:42:09 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
UReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
'	<001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
#Message-ID: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>

Lonnie wrote:

> Ian Hickson wrote:

> > Tony Bounds wrote:

 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }

	> > Why?

I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
 
R> Why? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the OS. This
(> is often in conflict with the design.
 
<> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge.

GActually it is a terrible gauge propagated by Owen Biggs, who has also
:shared such other gems as "the browser defaults are huge"
G<http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html> and
D"most browsers default to a text size that I have to back up to the
kitchen to read"
I<http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/font/index.html>.
EIt is apparent that Owen's eyes are not your average UA user's eyes,
Hbeing akin to those of an eagle, able to see the tiniest things at huge
Ddistances. It is wholly unfair to assume most UA users have similar
	ability.

> X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

IIt's an awful and not even comparable estimate. Bogus, bogus, bogus. Can
Eread and comfortable read are entirely different things. If the menu
Atext is 76% of a comfortably set default page text, it is merely
Elegible, not comfortable. Simply legible is good enough for familiar
Hthings like system controls. They get used frequently, but only briefly
Ieach time. With each use, they become more familiar, eventually reaching
Ithe point where experienced users wish they were smaller still, in order
Fto provide more space to the viewport, or to allow the use of smaller
Iwindows, so that more of other windows could be seen simultaneously. The
Gfamiliarity all but dispenses with any need to read at all, with mouse
Ievents targeted to remembered screen locations rather than words read. A
Gshort squint at small controls here & there is far more tolerable than
Gfull time squint required to read page text as small as controls text.

R> If you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser to something
S> comfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer to mimic the size of your
G> menu text by adjusting the default browser font size with a % value.

ENo it isn't, and you don't know what size my menu text is anyway. In
Gwindoze for example, controls text size varies according to DPI, which
Ialso you don't know. The eagle-eyed may very well find that the default,
Fdesigned for low resolution displays, works perfectly fine even after
Hdoubling the screen resolution from the low common values of 640 or 800
Gwide. Others, like me, and many others no longer under 40, welcome the
Iability to increase controls size, whether or not increasing resolution,
7taking away the need to squint to use system controls.

GFWIW, the IE6/Mozilla defaults of 16px/12pt are close enough for me to
Icall just right, when I'm using 1024 wide resolution, and a 19" monitor.
CWhen I drop the resolution back to 800 wide, 13px becomes slightly
Ftaller than 16px is on 1024 wide, while 12px becomes slightly shorter
D<http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/pixelsize2.html>, & I change my
default from 16 to 13.

%Now, compare to Ian Hixie's settings
E<http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1045789943&count=1>. Twice 12.5px is 25px
D(prefs options include 24 & 26, but not 25). Twice 800 wide is 1600
Fwide. The only significant difference in conversion is his display is
Bsmaller, but then he's probably not even half my age (50+), still
Eblessed with decent if not good eyesight. From what I've seen of his
Dmusings on the subject of font sizes, I hesitate to assume his near
vision is excellent.
 
> Can you read a typical book?

DThere is no such thing as a typical book. My bible is a large print
Fedition. Many paperbacks use smaller text than newspapers. Newspapers
Hare a strain, so I get most of my news off TV, or the internet, where I
Ghave a UA that allows me to override the common arrogant page designer
Iassumption that UA designers are ignorant morons who make the PC default
12pt/16px without good reason.
 
C> I'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs

CI'd like to visit some of these. As long as I've been reading your
Hadvocations of designer knows best I can't recall one instance of a URL
pointing to any of your work.

> I did 100% at
S> one point and got an equal amount of suggestions from users to reduce or enlarge
+> the default size as I do now. Go figure?

8You place more value upon the clueless than the clued. 

ADo you design sites using IE6 using the system defaults, with no
Eadjustment to the defaults, such as adjusting the browser default to
Gyour liking before starting a design? One of these days section 508 is
liable to catch up with you.

GIt's certainly a good thing for users of sites made by people like you
?that UA zoom and !important in user stylesheets are available.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:44.960 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [120]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:59:51 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
5Message-ID: <BAD087A7.53B97%chris@placenamehere.com>

9on 4/26/03 6:42 PM, Felix Miata at mrmazda@ij.net wrote:

> 
9> You place more value upon the clueless than the clued.

Yes.

MAnd until browsers come with install wizards that walk through configuration
 I don't see that changing much.

M... If you know how to set up your browser of choice for desktop for optimal
Gviewing I will try my damnedest to not screw you over (e.g. 0.5-0.7ems
Iothers referenced) But I have a lot more confidence that you know how to
Kdeal with what I as an author throw your way, then I have for Joe Internet
User.

:*takes this moment to consider the absence of a list mom*

LI know you'll never be satisfied with that answer Felix so I'm not going to
Hbother continuing down this road. I urge others on both sides to do the
same.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:44.960 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [121]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
 <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261548211.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
H> What do you think of the designer being so bold as to not honor other
!> user settings? For instance...
>
F> Font Type: Setting preferred font types. As with setting font size,
I> doing such requires the user to go out of their way to apply what they
> may prefer.

IOverriding font-family is easy at the user stylesheet level, so I'm fine
*with authors choosing their own typeface.


J> Content Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in
A> effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.

HI say good luck to them. My user agent gives me the ability to override
window resizing, etc. :-)


E> Link Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a
> designers preference.

KLike with font-family, colours are easy to override, so I'm fine with that
Htoo. In general, and this applies to font-family too, different colours
Ddon't make a page more or less readable for me, like font sizes do.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
7From cdwise at wiserways.com  Sun Apr 27 00:04:28 2003
/From: cdwise at wiserways.com (Cheryl D. Wise)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:04:28 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
AMessage-ID: <003f01c30c48$30858060$1901a8c0@local.wiserways.com>

IYou may think on your monitor that 76% of the default setting is a "good
Hestimate" but I can't read 76% of the default on my laptop period, with
or without reading glasses.

GWhile I applaud using % instead of fixed px (or even worse pt) sizes I
Iget very tired of having to adjust fonts up to read them. Funny enough I
Hcan only think of one site that I even considered adjusting a font down
Hto a smaller size and it was a site on accessibility that seemed to use
an extra large size font.

EPersonally I'd rather a design be 'broken' than a site's contents be

unusable.

Cheryl D. Wise
WiserWays, LLC
www.wiserways.com
Office: 713.353.0139
Mobile: 713.412.0406
cdwise@wiserways.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Lonnie

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
> Why?
>
H> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the 
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

GWhy? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the
/OS. This is often in conflict with the design.
U13:43:44.960 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [122]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:12:47 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
#Message-ID: <3EAB126F.7A2D@ij.net>

Tony Bounds wrote:

E> Link Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a
> designers preference.

BEventually, the power for users to override using css will become
)commonly exercised. e.g., this I do now:

?:link:hover[target="_blank"],:visited:hover[target="_blank"] {
7  color: white !important; background: red !important;
}
;:link:hover[target="_new"],:visited:hover[target="_new"] {
7  color: white !important; background: red !important;
}

-http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:44.960 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [123]
=================
)From: simon at jessey.net (Simon Jessey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:33:20 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
o	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
	<3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
:Message-ID: <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>

----- Original Message ----- 
%From: "Felix Miata" <mrmazda@ij.net>
%Subject: Re: [css-d] ems or percent?


> If the menu
C> text is 76% of a comfortably set default page text, it is merely
G> legible, not comfortable. Simply legible is good enough for familiar
> things like system controls.


MI have to agree with that. I have a 21 inch monitor attached to a Windows XP
Iplatform set to 1280 x 1024. I use this setting because I want plenty of
Jscreen real estate, but the menus (in their default setting) are a little
too small for my liking.

JI make web documents using relative units, with the only exceptions being
Gthe odd bit of padding, border width or letter spacing. In the case of
Mfonts, I almost always set a size of 100% in the BODY and then have 0.8em as
Gmy smallest child size. Users have the option of making it quite a bit
Msmaller or larger if they desire. I like to make a font as large as possible
&without it being ugly or impractical.

FThis new trend for microfonts is peculiar. I can only assume that the
Ltypical designer has a gigantic monitor, or perhaps projects their computer
Himage on a wall. One site that particularly annoys me is Kaliber10000 (
Ihttp://www.k10k.net/ ). Let me quote from one of my own weblog entries:-

I'The design is absolutely incredible, but the small font size being used
Dmeans that glyphs are dwarfed by medium-sized subatomic particles.'

MAnd resizing the text isn't always the answer, assuming it is even possible.
MMaking the text bigger on the Kaliber10000 site reveals the structure of the
?typeface, causing it to appear blocky and '80s computer-like'.

ENo. I am a firm believer in using CSS relative units and leaving the
Ldecision up to the user. It is our job as web designers to conceive layouts
Lthat don't break when text is resized. The fixed width site is a dinosaur -
power to the user!

Simon Jessey

w: http://jessey.net/blog/
e: simon@jessey.net


U13:43:44.960 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [124]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:02:27 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
References: 
J <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
' <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
3Message-ID: <61220190472.20030426190227@attbi.com>

8Lonnie wrote on Saturday, April 26, 2003 at 4:16:26 PM:

D>> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting
?>> the page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems
>> strange.

E> Why? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than
5> the OS. This is often in conflict with the design.

GThat may be a good reason to send a nasty letter to browser makers. On
Ethe other hand, most browsers let the user choose their own default,
Gso it's not at all clear what you'd ask them to do. I'd argue that any
:size has a great chance of conflicting with most designs.

DI can already choose a good default size. My problem isn't with the
Fbrowser, it's with authors who assume I'm ignorant and lazy. They try
Cto "help" me because, after all, they're designers, so surely they
#know what I want better than I do.

G> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser,
D> 76% is a VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you
?> should be fairly comfortable with reading text at that size.

E76% of my preferred font-size = smaller than my preferred menu size,
Dand much smaller than my preferred font-size. What you're saying is
Ftrue if and only if the user hasn't changed their menu text size, the
Euser hasn't changed their browser text size, OS text scaling is off,
Eand they're using a common platform like Windows and IE on a monitor
Gof "normal" size. That's an assumption you can't make with confidence.
FOh, and of course then they need to have near perfect vision as well.

DNor are the two related; I set the menu size in my OS and I set the
Fdefault text size in my browser. Even if you can change the menu size
Edirectly in your browser, I doubt it also rescales your default text
Asize. Further, the two serve different purposes. I want my menus
Gtaking up as little space as possible while still being highly legible
C(where legible means "read easily"). I want web pages to be highly
Greadable (where readable means "read easily at length"). The two serve
Dradically different purposes. As such, my menus are set to a pretty
>small sans-serif and my user style sheet uses a larger serif.

@I don't mind if you override my font-family, even if you choose
Fsomething lame like Times New Roman. I may be annoyed, I may disagree
Ewith you, but at least the text is almost as readable as before. But
Fwhen you cut the size by a quarter, text suddenly becomes much harder
Cto read no matter what my preferred typeface is, and odds are your
@style sheet will be disabled after about two seconds (Ctrl+G by
Adefault in Opera). If your page is designed well, maybe I'll try
Ezooming first instead. Maybe I'll simply leave and go read something
Belse. One thing is certain: There's no way I'll sit there and try
reading tiny text.

E> If you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser
F> to something comfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer
G> to mimic the size of your menu text by adjusting the default browser
> font size with a % value.

DThat doesn't make any sense. The only way it would make sense is if
Gyou know the size of one or both, and you only have access to the size
Gof one (and even then you don't know the specified or actual size). As
Aa web page designer, it's impossible to mimic the size of a menu
Dwithout making assumptions about user settings. The two just aren't
"related unless by happy accident.

EAs mentioned above, nor does it mean the text will be readable, even
"if you could mimic the menu text.

F> Good for you if you've changed the default browser text size to fit
E> your viewing pleasure. By setting the default size to a percentage
E> of the default, that designer has opened the door for you to tweak
G> it to suit your preference. Had he specified pixels, you on IE would
> have little choice.

DI use Opera, and I'm not the only one. Even more people use Mozilla
@and Safari. Where do people get the idea that everyone uses IE?

> Can you read a typical book?

'Yes. That doesn't seem related to CSS.

-- 
John Lewis
U13:43:44.961 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [125]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 01:20:46 +0100
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
�	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda><3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
/	<002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
2Message-ID: <007d01c30c52$d918f950$fd00a8c0@mike>

MI feel somewhat humble at asking a small question in the midst of CSS gurus,
Lwith wide polarity of view (no pun intended), indulging in an excellent and
Kimportant debate. With my business consulting hat on, a simple question...
Gespecially given the cogent example of http://www.k10k.net/, someone's
Gexcellently designed window to the world but so difficult on the eyes.

MOn the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
Iyour opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
Gsettings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
users, most of the time?

Mike
Edinburgh, Scotland
U13:43:44.961 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [126]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:38:50 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <007d01c30c52$d918f950$fd00a8c0@mike>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
 <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
' <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
 <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
/ <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426213121.00bcd8b0@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

!At 09:20 PM 4/26/03, Mike wrote:
><snip>
N>On the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
J>your opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
H>settings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
>users, most of the time?
>
>Mike
>Edinburgh, Scotland



LYes! This is what my original question was about, and I'm glad you brought 
Lit back around, Mike. Hopefully someone will have an answer for us. In the 
Kmeantime, let's see if I understand a few things.  Someone please tell me 
<if I'm even close to knowing what I'm talking about.... :-)

===============
Scenario 1:
AAssume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}

?This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
#of the browser's default. Yes? No?
===============
Scenario 2:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 1em}

AAll text on the page will still be 80% of the browser's default,
=because basically 1em = 100%, and I'm only setting it to 20%
$less (which is 80%).  Right? Wrong?
===============
Scenario 3:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 0.9em}

:Okay, NOW the text will actually be just under 80% of the
:browser default, because it is 9/10ths of 80% of default.
===============
Scenario 4:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 100%}

=Again, the text remains at only 80% of default, because I've
Cset it to be 100% of the body font size (not that I would do that,
it's just for example)
===============
One more... Scenario 5:
body {font-size: 100%}
0.classname {font-size: 1em} or {font-size: 80%}

FHere, the text will either be the full browser default, or 80% of it.
Right?
===============


HIf all the above are correct, then it's just as easy to set the body at
D100% all the time, and simply use smaller percentages for different
sizes.
BThat, or do body {font-size: 100%}, and use various em sizes, and
Ceverything should work out - keeping the sizes within a reasonable
range, of course.

8Did I reach home base, or am I somewhere in left field?


Joel
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=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:57:04 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
zReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
F	<3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net> <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
#Message-ID: <3EAB2AE0.7C85@ij.net>

Simon Jessey wrote:
 
H> This new trend for microfonts is peculiar. I can only assume that the
N> typical designer has a gigantic monitor, or perhaps projects their computer
J> image on a wall. One site that particularly annoys me is Kaliber10000 (
K> http://www.k10k.net/ ). Let me quote from one of my own weblog entries:-
 
K> 'The design is absolutely incredible, but the small font size being used
F> means that glyphs are dwarfed by medium-sized subatomic particles.'

HZoom to only 150% in Mozilla trunk, and right in the middle text spills
out of its containing image
Fhttp://www.k10k.net/images/frontpage/features_wspecials.gif. The site
1also depends on image substitutes for text. e.g.
8http://www.k10k.net/images/backs/front_issuematrix.gif 
@And, if you think it's tough now, try it at 1600 wide or higher
Hresolution. Hard to figure if the purpose of that site is anything more
)than to show off someone's css-d skills.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:44.967 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [128]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:06:58 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
6In-Reply-To: <BAD087A7.53B97%chris@placenamehere.com>
7Message-ID: <001601c30c59$4d8f5e90$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

> Chris Casciano :
>
;> on 4/26/03 6:42 PM, Felix Miata at mrmazda@ij.net wrote:
> >
;> > You place more value upon the clueless than the clued.
 
> Yes.

DEmphatically agree with Chris. While I hesitate to even chime in on
@this, since it seems more than played out and there seems to be
Hunwillingness to budge on both sides of the issue, I would just like to
Iadd, while this is obviously a *philosophical* difference, if left to my
Hown devices I would design for the clueless EVERY time, since they make
3up the vast majority of users that spend the cash.

DExample: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/us-tricks/  

I.. While it's an older article, so much of it is still true to this day.
HSpend some time watching **REAL** users... Not only do many of them not
Gknow what the Stop and Refresh button do, but I have NEVER seen ONE of
Four non-technical test users change their font size.  Ever. I've even
Dasked some to do so specifically and was greeted with the astounded
%reply of "you mean I can do that??".

II can't remember if this specific tale of woe is referenced in the above
Garticle, or one that it links to, but I have actually, personally seen
Eone user complain that he couldn't hit a link in question because he
E"ran out of desk".  This was a bio-chemist whose brain must weigh at
Dleast 5 times what mine does, and  who had been using computers for
Gquite a few years, who didn't realize he could actually pick the mouse
Iup off the desk and reposition it without effecting the cursor position.
HDo you think HE knows how to change his font size?  He doesn't, however
Ihe estimates that a full 60%-70% of his non-essential purchases are made
Eon-line!!!  THIS is the guy I gotta design for??!!?!  Yes.  And when
Bpresented with larger than life, default windows IE text size, he
Hdetests the excessive scrolling he has to go through, and uses the back
Fbutton instead.  I heard him before hitting his back once mutter, "do
 these people think I'm blind?".

GMy dear old mother, who still to this day double-clicks links AND form
Hbuttons on web sites despite all her kids and grandkids telling her not
Gto, can't set the font size on her browser, even though she's actually
Gbeen shown how to a few times, and even had the font-size button added
Cto her IE toolbar for her. She can use three things.. A web site's
Gpresented navigation, her back button, and her "x" button in the upper
Dright hand corner.  BUT, she Googles with the best of 'em, and is a
FHEAVY internet shopper, even finding full-adult size "footie" pajamas
Efor my wife and I (which ain't an easy task, but much appreciated in
INorthern Maine!).  From what I can discern, what she likes to see on web
Hsites is 12 pixel Arial, and will probably never learn how to apply her
Ipersonal preference at the browser level.. But will shop ecommerce sites
F'till the day she dies.  For her, the back button is just easier than
Gbothering with all the "stupid buttons" on the browser (her words, not
mine).

ESo, yeah, I'm totally with Chris.  I don't place more 'value' on the
Hclueless than the "clued"... But the "clued" can figure it out on their
Eown if they want to. The clueless, who spend the same money that the
G"clued" people do, and make up a greater number of users, would prefer
Gthe back button over actually learning how to use their tools.  Bottom
Fline is: my job ain't to convince them to use their tools, never mind
Ateach them HOW, my job is to sell them crap, or convince them of
something.  

DIt just depends on what you do for a living and who your target is.
BProgrammers and Designers are in no way reflective of the average
3internet user, though many of them think they are.

CThe usual disclaimers apply... Just my $0.02, IMHO, YMMV, etc.. :)

--Josh

U13:43:44.968 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [129]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:30:01 +0930
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
(In-Reply-To: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
/Message-ID: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>

Tony Bounds wrote:
> ...
> 
K> Content Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in 
A> effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.
> 
> ...

AI've already been thru a flame war on this on another list, but 
-css-d attracts a more sensible crowd, so ...

BI'm not sure if this is what you meant, but, one of my pet hates 
@is sites which spread their text across the whole width of the 
?window. This particularly applies to "minimal" sites where no 
>use is made of CSS at all, but I've seen it in lots of other 
sites too.

BNow, lots of studies have been done on this, and the evidence is 
@not entirely equivocal, but a concensus seems to be that lines 
8of text should not exceed a certain length for optimum 
@readability. Therefore, it is arguably best to limit the width 
>of blocks of text to, say, 33em. (I've played with this, and 
B30em seemed too narrow, 35em too wide -- to my eyes.) Certainly, 
:this corresponds more or less to what you'll find in any 
Bbookstore. If print publishing represents 500 years of trial and 
>error, then we can feel at least a little confident that the 
@present-day format for books represents a pretty good standard 
:for readability. (Also black text on a white background, 
9although that may also be influenced by printing costs.)

1So there is an argument for using something like

"	div.text { max-width:33em; ... }

?to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of 
the user's screen.

>But many seem to find any kind of limitations placed on user 
Apreference abhorrent, so I'm prepared to hear negative feedback 
on this suggestion.

.A compromise I've adopted at my ebooks site, 
&http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/
6is to open each ebook in a new window which is sized 
Bappropriately*, and leave the user free to resize the new window 
6if they wish. But I'm still tempted to use max-width.

?[* Javascript only lets you specify window size in pixels, so 
/this is only going to be approximate at best.]

	Regards,
Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
U13:43:44.968 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [130]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 05:22:54 -0500
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
? <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net> <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
4Message-ID: <181257423383.20030427052254@attbi.com>

6Steve wrote on Sunday, April 27, 2003 at 12:00:01 AM:

?> But many seem to find any kind of limitations placed on user
E> preference abhorrent, so I'm prepared to hear negative feedback on
> this suggestion.

FOn the contrary, I think they'd be inclined to agree with you. I know
FI do! I'll now start rambling on about CSS; feel free to stop reading
here if you're busy.

EUsing min-width in conjunction with max-width is usually superior to
Dsizing something with a basic em width. The difference is basically
Fthat between a range (e.g., 16em to 32em) and a single number (24em).
?I think we can all agree that a range is almost always better.

FWe don't have anything like min-width and max-width for font-size. If
Dwe did, keeping with the same spirit of min-width and max-width, it
Gwould probably be way too complicated (for author use) anyway. You can
Eeither take monitor, resolution, preferred text size, window height,
Gand window width into account, or you can let it be useless. Including
Fonly some of the above basically cuts its usefulness so much that you
Bmight as well use font-size, and including it all (or most of it)
?makes it so complicated that it would never be implemented, or
Eprobably even specified. Users have their own set of problems. Let's
Gsay it's specified for users instead, with no auto sizing for authors.
-You have two main options for min-font-size:

+    1. Specify a minimum legible font-size
,    2. Specify a minimum readable font-size

CThe problem is, on a well designed page (1em body text and smaller
Bnavigation text) specifying a minimum readable font-size is quite
Cimperfect. Sure, text will be your minimum readable font-size--but
Gthat means that stuff you would prefer small (i.e., legible instead of
Areadable, like menus and legal text) will be too big. On a badly
Ddesigned page (smaller body text and much smaller navigation text),
Athe opposite happens. If you specify the min-font-size to be the
Eminimum legible size, to erase the possibility of illegible text but
Gnot erase the possibility that text will be unreadable, the navigation
Dtext, which was previously illegible, is now legible. The body text
Ewas already legible, so it didn't change in size! It's still just as
>unreadable, because "readable" and "legible" are two entirely
Cdifferent concepts. Which means your two options above really are:

A    1. Screw up small text at well designed sites, but fix badly
)       designed sites as well as you can
E    2. Don't fix badly designed sites, but leave well designed sites
       alone.

@The same applies to max-font-size to a lesser degree, but since
Gmax-font-size isn't quite as important as min-font-size (max-font-size
Eis like min-width, and min-font-size is like max-width, for those of
Byou confused but familiar with those properties--although I think
Fmin-width is relatively more useful than max-font-size, so it's not a
fair comparison).

?Setting a sane column width doesn't have as great an effect on
Ereadability as decreasing a font-size from an optimum size, which is
Dby definition unsafe. It's hard to think of a user style sheet that
?would cause problems if a page sensibly overrode max-width and
Dmin-width values, unless the need was vital (in which case the user
Gwould have already overriden, rendering the problem moot--keep in mind
GI'm only talking about advanced users, since we can assume no one else
Dwould use min-width or max-width or even have a user style sheet at
all).

CIn the case of neophyte users, setting a sane column width doesn't
Chave as adverse an effect on readability as decreasing a font-size
Ffrom an unknown size, because no matter the em value the column width
Cwill make sense (even if it's unreadable, or produces a horizontal
Escrollbar, it will still make sense if you're the page author--which
=is all you can know, since you don't control the user or his
Acomputer), because you have knowledge of the entire author style
Csheet, there is no user style sheet by definition, and even if you
Dsniff for a browser and assume a default font size it may have been
Echanged by accident or by a different user or by OS settings. On the
Fother hand, decreasing an unknown font-size can lead to illegible and
Dunreadable fonts (e.g., if you're decreasing a font-size already on
-the threshold of legibility or readability).

DIn reality, setting a max-width is like setting a line-height. It's
Brelated to the font-size, and it affects readability greatly, but
?they're both based on the font-size in CSS. You can change the
Eline-height, margin, padding, width, and so on that are based on ems
Gwith wild abandon. Even changing colors affects readability (so try to
Eavoid fuschia on magenta, if it's no big deal). You can use them all
Fresponsibly or irresponsibly. The fundamental difference in font-size
B(compared to ems in other properties, in this example) is that by
Dchanging it you affect a great deal. When you change the font-size,
Fmargins and padding in ems are also decreased, the actual line-height
Dis usually decreased, and the width or height of a box sized in ems
<decreases. That's a much bigger deal than changing most CSS
properties.

ENot all ems are created equal. A value of .5em applied to a width is
Galways .5em, no matter the actual font-size. Since you know .5em = 1/2
Bthe current font-size, that's valuable even if you don't know the
Eactual font-size. Setting em on width doesn't change the value; it's
Dconsistent. On the other hand, a value of .5em applied to font-size
Dchanges the meaning of an em. From now on, .5em of that font-size =
C1/4 of the 1em and 1/2 of the current .5em, unless you're changing
Efont-size again, in which case you modify the value for that element
Band its descendants as well. You've now lost basically all of the
Fusefulness of em. You can still calculate values of em, and fractions
Band so on (like I did above), but it won't help you design a page
Gwell, since you don't know the actual value. Much of the reason 1em is
Gso valuable is that it's 1em, not ".9em to 1.3em". That's why assuming
F1em is more valuable than assuming everyone's browser default is 16px
Gexcept that group, whose default is 14px, etc. The absolute values are
Finherently less useful. In a perfect world, you'd know all the values
Gand style according. You'd also know the users favorite colors and pet
peeves.

=You need to know the actual value of 1em to change the value
Dsignificantly with confidence, if you want to know you're improving
Ethe user experience. I define significantly as above 6.25%, but it's
Esort of arbitrary. Sort of. You could practically change it by 18.5%
Cor so without causing major harm in most cases, but you're sure to
Fhave an impact that's felt, and there is the very real possibility of
Aunreadable text. So, 93.75%? Hardly a big deal. I might not even
Dnotice, and even if I do I'm not likely to be hurt terribly. On the
Cother hand, I'll notice and probably curse 81.5% (depending on the
Ctypeface, leading, column width, and my mood). If you were against
Gchanging font-size for body text generally, because you realized there
Gare bad things about doing so, you could still change it to 93.75% (or
?so) and very few people would have cause to complain. Changing
=non-body text to about 81.5% is about as safe. You could get
Bcomplaints from veteran users, and it could cause something to be
<illegible, but very few people will have cause to complain.

FOf course, all that's sort of useless, because my 1em is not Alison's
G1em, or Sarah's 1em, or Aaron's 1em. It may be, but it isn't, and more
Eimportantly it can change, from day to day and even more frequently.
DFor example, my preferred font-size changed no less than four times
Gyesterday. I wasn't doing much of anything strange--I think it changes
at least twice a day.

EEven if a user has a max-width set on body, overriding that value is
Eless harmful than changing a font-size on body. Indeed, if max-width
?on body could cause a problem with your page, you'd do well to
Boverride it preemptively. I think it would be more harmful to not
Econsider the effect of max-width than to consider the effect and act
2accordingly. It would be hard to argue otherwise.

/> A compromise I've adopted at my ebooks site,
G> http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/ is to open each ebook in a new
C> window which is sized appropriately*, and leave the user free to
C> resize the new window if they wish. But I'm still tempted to use
> max-width.

BI say go for it! We need more intelligent uses of CSS on the web,
Gespecially of relatively rare properties. Anything to stop JS windows,
FI say. Of course, Win IE didn't support max-width last I checked, and
5it's funny how most of the web uses Win IE. Oh well.


GI thought about some guidelines for text sizing in CSS. At first I was
?going to list my own guidelines (in fact, I wrote up the email
Fyesterday, but I didn't send it), but I think it would be more useful
Fto list "guidelines for designers." I already know what I'm doing and
Gwhat I like. If someone is likely to agree with me, I think they could
Ejust as easily come up with similar guidelines. I might as well list
.some things people may actually find helpful.

; 1. Size everything relative to body (or the root element)

G    Sizing everything relative to body gives you just as much control,
F    and it lets a user easily override the "main" setting on body and
A    have your page text resize accordingly, both larger and even
F    smaller. Use math if you want exact values. For instance, instead
D    of 14px body text and 28px headings, use 14px body text and 2em
    headings.

  2. Use safe line-height values

@    There's hardly ever a need to specify dangerous line-height
B    values. If you want to maintain an exact value from a certain
A    size, use a little math. For example, 14px/19px would become
B    14px/1.357 (and so on, if you'd like). It's most important to
E    avoid 1em/19px or similar, because 1em could be much larger than
5    19px, in which case the text would be illegible.

$ 3. Take text resizing into account

E    There's a reason pixel-width layouts suck. If there's no room to
E    breath, increased text size values lead to tiny columns of text.
A    In an ideal world, you'd use min-width and max-width to size
F    columns. The reality is there's no good solution today other than
B    avoiding bad situations. That doesn't mean you should neglect
F    min-width and max-width, it just means you shouldn't rely on them
E    working. Keep it in your "complex" style sheet if that's how you
    do things.

; 4. Try to avoid massive font-size changes relative to 1em

D    In many ways, some random px value (as above, preferably on the
F    body element) is better than a small % of my preferred font-size.
B    A small % is surely going to cause headaches, but a random px
F    value has a decent chance of working, and a much better chance of
G    causing less harm if it doesn't work. On the other hand, about 80%
F    of the body size on a menu stands a great chance of being helpful
F    and a tiny chance of being harmful. So do that! It's pretty safe,
    and the payoff is big.

& 5. Try to consider user style sheets

A    I never realized how powerful user style sheets were until I
C    started using them. Similarly, it helps a great deal if you've
D    experimented with CSS before you tackle potential problems. For
<    example, if have a rule like this in a user style sheet

(        p{color:white;background:black}

D    (ever mind how unlikely that is for the moment) and you have an
!    author style sheet with this

        p{background:white}

F    we have a problem. Try to set common values in pairs and whatnot.
G    If something would look truly hideous with a border, and you could
E    imagine someone putting a border on that element in a user style
<    sheet, play it safe and override the border. Colors and
<    backgrounds are meant to be together; on't forget about
E    transparent backgrounds, since you'll probably need or want them
G    at some point. Another thing, since so few CSS sites seem to do it
F    (for whatever reason), please set a line-height if you assume the
E    default value, even if you just use "normal." I don't think it's
D    going to harm anyone, and it will benefit those of us trying to
G    read a narrow column with a huge line-height (or, theoretically, a
@    wide column with a tiny line-height, but that isn't exactly
    likely).

-- 
John Lewis
U13:43:44.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [131]
=================
.From: moose at literarymoose.info (The Moose)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:41:52 -0500
4Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
7Message-ID: <oproadf2zb98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>

Hello,

KI have played a bit with the display of the unordered lists when they are 
Kused for navigation of a logical sequence of pages, and would like to ask 
Bfor screenshots from the following browsers: *Safari*, *Camino*, 
*Konqueror*.

EThere are two pages (I'd like to get screenshots for both from each 

browser):

9http://www.literarymoose.info/=/destroy/moovigation.html

Ahttp://www.literarymoose.info/=/destroy/moovigation-variant.html

FThe first features generated content (with entities only) hidden via 
Khtml[xmlns] method, the second does not. Mozilla displays &#xxxx; instead 
Mof the character on the second page (I don't know why). Opera7.1 behaves in 
both cases.

DThe size of screenshots does not matter, I'll be watching my inbox.

thank you in advance,

Wojtek

p.s. styles embedded.
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Sun Apr 27 12:53:21 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:53:21 +0100
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
2Message-ID: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>


KDoes anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and below

for OS X?

LI've successfully divided my CSS into basic version, which gets read by all
Mbrowsers, and more advanced CSS, which gets read by browsers that understand
M@import. This works perfectly in every browser I've thrown it at - including
4the betas of OmniWeb 4.5, based on Apple's WebCore.

MUnfortunately, OmniWeb 4.2 understands @import, but hasn't a clue about what
to do with the CSS afterwards.

MIs there a CSS-based way of hiding styles from OmniWeb? Or would I be better
Loff detecting the user-agent on the server - and then add any other problem
browsers to my detection list?


Seb

U13:43:44.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [132]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:09:17 +0900
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
3In-Reply-To: <1160748345-3816664@pointinspace.com>
=Message-ID: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 01:21  AM, Rick Hurst wrote:

I> for some reason this layout is missing the left border when displayed 
E> in IE5 mac. The odd thing is that the space has been left for the 
L> border, but no colour is showing. Any ideas why, or how I might fix > it?
>
/> http://www.hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.htm

EYour <div id="myclear"> is empty, except for an absolute positioned 
Himage (which is taken out of the document flow any way). I deleted the 
F'width' on your #myclear, and added a non-breaking space in the div, 
;and then your layout worked out exactly as in Mozilla 1.4.

	Philippe

:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:44.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [133]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:09:30 +0900
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
3In-Reply-To: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
=Message-ID: <7B1D8EC7-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 08:53  PM, Seb Duggan wrote:

H> Does anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and 
> below
> for OS X?

:I use <link rel="stylesheet"............media="Screen" />
(note the capital S)
D<http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/macbrowsercsssupport.html>,
scroll down to the bottom.

	Philippe

:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:44.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [134]
=================
*From: WebHead at wi.rr.com (Arlen Walker)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 08:47:55 -0500
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
8In-Reply-To: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
=Message-ID: <D971F63A-78B6-11D7-A71B-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>


@On Saturday, April 26, 2003, at 01:52  PM, Matthew Davey wrote:

J> Works fine in all win browsers I've been able to download, no Mac, and 
> Linux
H> till I get a spare day, so if any one with either of these platforms 
> could
)> check it for me, I'd be most grateful.

JNot bad. Suffers from the "phantom right margin" bug in IE5/Mac, because 
Iyour "linksright" div is right-poistioned within 16px of the right edge 
Fof the viewport. When this happens, IE5/Mac adds another 16px to the 
Gwidth, forcing horizontal scrollbars when none are needed. Fix is not 
Jpositioning it within 16 px of the edge and optionally giving a negative 
$right margin to move the text over.

=Also center column is a tad lower than the two outside ones.

ABoth of these are minor cosmetics, the second one could even be 
Econsidered an intentional design choice (the "asymmetry adds visual 
Jinterest" bit). Positioned as it is below the subtitle for your site, it 
@actually works better than uniform starting positions, I think.

HThen again, I always liked comic books with non-square panels, as well.


Have fun,
Arlen

-----
-In God We Trust, all others must supply data
U13:43:44.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [135]
=================
0From: css at nextw3.net (Marcello Armand-Pilon)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:42:17 +0200
,Subject: [css-d] IE Win positioning problem
:Message-ID: <3E8423B100919A0B@smtp12.cp.tin.it> (added by
	postmaster@virgilio.it)

Hi all,

�I am working on a site that displays correctly in a variety of browsers under Mac and Win, except IE6 Win. Sorry if I cannot provide a URL, 'cause I'm still working locally, but here's the main DIV that's causing the poblem:

#mainframe {
	position: absolute;
	text-align: center;
	width: 800px;
	margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px;
	padding: 0;
	text-align: left;
	}

�With all the browsers I have tested so far, the left margin is anchored 20px far from the browser left side, but IE6 Win add a huge 400px margin (more or less) on the left side. If I change the position from absolute to relative, things run better, but the content is then liquid, while I want it to stay 20px from the browser left side, and don't move.

[I'm sure this matter has been discussed already, but any help would be gratly appreciated.

Thanks, Marcello
:From chris at placenamehere.com  Sun Apr 27 17:55:27 2003
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:55:27 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
3In-Reply-To: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
5Message-ID: <BAD183BF.53C5C%chris@placenamehere.com>

?on 4/27/03 7:53 AM, Seb Duggan at outlaw@joseywales.com wrote:

O> Unfortunately, OmniWeb 4.2 understands @import, but hasn't a clue about what
!> to do with the CSS afterwards.
>

LThere's a point at which a user needs to be reminded they're using a flawed
Lproduct by seeing things break. Most site builders don't have the luxury of
Kputting NN4, IE, Safari or Moz in that category due to the politics of the
Imarketplace. I consider OmniWeb 4.2- as the exception for a few reasons:

K* OmniWeb users as a whole seem to be the types that are more impressed by
JUI features and control then they are with presentation of content. While
IOmniGroup doesn't promote the fact that their rendering engine is behind
Mthey don't cover the fact up at all. They maintain a more active part in the
Kgeneral user community then any browser vendor I know and they are very in
Ftune with the interface features that users are looking for. The only
Mcompelling reason (to date) to use OmniWeb is was for its interface options.
JAs a result, using the terminology of another recent thread, I would as a
Mrule consider OmniWeb users to be "clued" and able to roll with the punches.

J* The OmniGroup folks are good people who know their product is flawed in
Lterms of CSS. For some time now they have had plans to rewrite their engine
Kso haven't totally overhauled their current NN4-like engine, but even with
Kthat in mind they have always (IMExperience) been quick to fix errors that
Jcaused the loss of access to a site. So in many ways having a broken page
/has made the browser better in the short term.


MSo given that OW is a currently active development project (unlike NN4), and
Kits users are as a (my) rule the informed type (which is unheard of in all
Lother situations) and keep on top of software updates, I generally take the
Cstance that a site for a general audience should do very little to
accommodate OW users.

GPlease don't try and convince me that I'm wrong here, the above wasn't
Kintended to convince anyone of anything. Just thought it be appropriate to
Gstate my (formed after 2 yrs of watching this very open community-like
Eproject, cause I'm a software geek that way) position on the matter.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:44.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [136]
=================
+From: derek at derekrogerson.com (Derek R)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:06:46 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
7Message-ID: <001101c30cf0$27e7e8a0$96a95bd1@satellite>

	  
Somebody said:
,>| I did 100% at one point and got an equal
/>| amount of suggestions from users to reduce 
7>| or enlarge the default size as I do now. Go figure?


IIt is my experience that designers tend to make their font-size as small
Gas possible simply because the content which the font-size contains is
)largely, if not entirely, communicative.

=This is to say, most blogs/websites/news-stories etc have no
Einformation/knowledge to offer so ostentatious exhibition is instead
9brought in to disguise --or make up for-- the absence of
Dcontent/substance, which is plainly absent when one reads the words
(i.e. it is communicative).

AIt is very much like Western/European culture in general, or say
EHollywood promotions, where what is promoted (the movie/tv-show, for
Hinstance) is, upon real experience/inspection [i.e. sitting through the
Aentirety of the production] not-at-all-worth-the-time-spent, but
Deverybody-else-is-doing-it, so the tendency (fear) is not to appear
oppositional.

HSmall-font designers treat their text like greek-text, which is to say,
Cif they were to expand it and make it much larger-in-size it would
Ibecome *painfully* obvious just what is being said (nothing worthwhile).

ITo provide the /appearance/ of intelligence, relevance, and/or pleasure,
Gthe designer uses small font-sizes to mask the content itself, thereby
Gsaving-face through obscuring what the designer knows to be valueless.

GThis is the same as people who wear message t-shirts or highly-visible
Dbranded clothing, who, by diverting attention to the message on the
Bmaterial one is wearing, obscures the wearer (the person) thereby
Hsaving-face and avoiding the pain of being responsible for who-they-are
(don't look in my eyes).  

IThis is not to say most everything online or in Western/European culture
Hhas nothing genuine to say or lacks value, indeed, this is exactly what
>I'm saying, but, rather, that *revelation* of this absence of
Isense/content is, its own medicine, so to speak, so that the sight of it
makes one account for it.

EIn summary, a larger font-size (say 100% ~ the whole tamale) is more
Hprominent than the usual smaller font-sizes one encounters, which is to
Bsay larger is bigger, which no doubt will cause attention to come
forward (to the content).

EThe real question is what are you saying (substance) and why are you
Htrying to hide it? (I understand ostentatious exhibition is largely the
'substance of Western/European design).


AThis email is a characterization of a generalization (seething).


+__________________________________________
"Chant down Babylon"
	 
	 
U13:43:44.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [137]
=================
(From: tl at abhalfdan.dk (Torben Linde)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:57:11 +0200
8Subject: [css-d] IE missing borders on inline list menu
6Message-ID: <20030427195711.28518@smtp.gnbolignet.dk>

Hello

BI have made a tab-like menu for this page: www.bryggenet.dk using
Funordered lists with inline li's. The page is valid xhtml 1.0 and css
(except the forum area).

HThe menus are located in div class="menua" and div class="menub". menua
<is the tabs and menub is a submenu on the page of each tab.

<The css-file is here: www.bryggenet.dk/layout/bryggenet.css

JThis works well in Mozilla and Safari, but the tab-like look is dependant
)on changes in border color on the li's. 
JIE/win will not show the top and bottom border on these elements and that
ruins the tab-effect somewhat.

8Is there any way to make IE show the borders correctly?

JI have tried to do the menus with left-floated divs instead but so far it
has not worked too well.



Torben Linde
U13:43:44.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [138]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:42:10 +0100
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
3Message-ID: <l03130300bad1d4c8a3aa@[192.168.1.36]>

K>Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I
M>could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending
L>on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the
>size of the image

IJust a quick note since I'm unfortunately tied up with mountains of work
Eand attempting to resuscitate my iBook which is dying the death of a
Aseemingly infinite number of colourful (and colourless) screens.

JAs Holly points out, it's not too hard to make css layouts fall over. The
Gpage can't take in to account all possible bugs and flaws and it's not
Emeant to just be used as is - it's not a substitute for the dull and
;thankless task of checking accross platforms and browsers.

JThat said, I'll try and pursue Holly's line of enquiries as to under what
0precise circumstances things can vanish in IE6.

EAll I can suggest (untested since I have no IE6 at themoment) did is
Esetting the image's position to relative. Nested divs in this layout
Drequire that and maybe images that fit the exact width need it too.
LAlternatively you could increase the width of the right hand column and set
its margin

JAnyhow when I've got a copy of IE6 again I'll investigate and also see if
Mthe pure float model (FFFF rather than FMFM) suffers from the same problems.


U13:43:44.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [139]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:32:11 +0100
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
>In-Reply-To: <7B1D8EC7-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
2References: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <l03130301bad1f7eee1c5@[192.168.0.36]>

H>> Does anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and
	>> below
>> for OS X?

GThere is another way to hide CSS from OmniWeb which doesn't rely on an
.external files like the Codebitch method does

<<http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/test/OmniWebInlineHack.mhtml>

JI'd guess that OmniWeb 4.5 with it's all new rendering engine will now do
Kthe right thing (can't check that myself so any reports on that gratefully

received)

U13:43:44.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [140]
=================
;From: peter.williams at hendersons.com.au (Peter Williams)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:36:58 +1000
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
LMessage-ID: <NBBBKHLHIPAOABOPCOCBEEGJAKAB.peter.williams@hendersons.com.au>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Thomas
> 
D> I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but, one of my pet hates 
B> is sites which spread their text across the whole width of the 
> window. 
> 
3> So there is an argument for using something like
> 
$> 	div.text { max-width:33em; ... }
> 
A> to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of 
> the user's screen.
> 

=I've worked on line lengths of 43 chars in the past as being
=comfortable for reading. Just last week I used the max-width
9directive to prevent text running off to the right in an
=unconstrained manner. It only works in some browsers though.
;I've really started to try to use w3c standards and ignore
?browser quirks and issues where possible for my intranet work.
CUnless a page is rendered unusable in either Moz or IE5 and higher
=I'll go with a clean, standard HTML 4 Strict or XHTML markup
<and some CSS these days. Our public web site is a different
Akettle of fish though, I'll make sure that works well in as many
Bbrowsers as possible, although I won't use non-validating markup.

<flame class="low crackle">
ANew windows of a size chosen by the page author are abhorent :-)
	</flame>

--
Peter Williams
U13:43:44.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [141]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:01:24 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
<Message-ID: <000001c30d08$8ea98680$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>

	Hi guys,
 
@I have done pretty much all I can with my client's new site in 
@css. (I know I have used tables in a couple of places, but that
:was for avoiding IE problems with small screen widths ...
and time constraints)
 
*I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera, 

Mac IE 5?
 
>Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
.MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
 
Thanks ...
 
,... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
 
http://www.golfbreaks.com/
 
--
Sam Ellis - 
7From RHulse at radionz.co.nz  Sun Apr 27 23:36:54 2003
.From: RHulse at radionz.co.nz (Richard Hulse)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:36:54 +1200
&Subject: [css-d] Unfixing fixed menus
4Message-ID: <sead0460.099@rnz03.wgtn.radionz.co.nz>

+I have posted this on WD-L for discussion.

HI'm posting it here as it is of interest, even is slightly OT due the =
javascript content.

	regards,
Richard
%=AF---------------------------------
>I have taken Eric Bednarz' example of fixed areas in IE at=20

"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

(and applied it to this sub-site at RNZ:

&http://www.radionz.co.nz/digitallife/

MIt worked quite well but for one main issue - when the width of the screen =
Mis too narrow the scoll bar dissappears. I'm not sure if this can be fixed =
by tweaking the CSS files.

LAnyway, as is always the case with fixed menus, if the window is not high =
(enough you lose the bottom of the menu.

KI have come up with a little JS that fixes both the problem. It works in =
,Moz and IE 5/6. on PC (not sure about Mac).

=In moz if the browser is too short then it unfixes the menu.
MIn IE it unfixes the menu, and re-fixes it if the browser is returned to a =
suitable size.

FThe JS relys on the IE style sheet having a title (which IE ignores).

.Any suggestions and improvements appreciated.

U13:43:44.975 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [142]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:43:12 +0100
!Subject: [css-d] Problem layouts
;Message-ID: <022269AB-790A-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


Hello,

GI've been using CSS for a while now and I'm beginning to feel that it 
Gdoesn't quite offer me the design toolbox I need. During almost every 
Dproject I work on there is a period of hacking with CSS to get the 
Edesired results. While most of this is due to browser bugs, I think 
/that in some situations CSS lacks design nous.

GI think that one of the reasons that CSS layout is being adopted very 
Eslowly (1 major site to date) is because it doesn't make it easy to 
Hrebuild your pages in the new syntax. Of course it's mainly because of 
Hbad browsers and the continuing use of legacy browsers that's to blame.

HI'm trying to put together a list of problem layouts that people often 
Fwant to build but can't do so simply. The worst one is positioning a 
Eblock element at the centre of the browser window. I know there are 
Flots of ways to achieve or almost achieve the required effect, using 
G100% tables, margin:auto; or other options, but these are non-trivial 
9solutions and use syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.

@If you have come across situations where CSS doesn't offer the 
Eexpressiveness you feel it should, please let me know either on- or 

off-list.

EI apologise if you are also a member of www-style and have received 
this request twice.

Thanks,

Ben


(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:44.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [143]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:02:51 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>

Hi everyone,

KI searched the list archives for an answer but couldn't find one, so it's 
$either well hidden or non-existent.

MI can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a global font size. 
IHere's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as IE6 in all 

cases)...

-On a page with no other styling, I did this:

      body {font-size: .7em}

MIn Mozilla, all my text is exactly the size I expected and wanted it to be. 
KIn IE6, there's no effect. The font size stays at the default 1em (100% / 
16px).

=So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:

      body {font-size: .7em}
      td {font-size: .7em}

MThis puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule text 
that Superman couldn't read.


KSo I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing 
Kis styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers - 
aren't they?....

"      (no body styling this time)
      td {font-size: .7em}

GThat looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a 
strong pair of glasses.


HAll I want is to set a global font size, and make other sizing changes 
'where necessary. So what's the secret?
U13:43:44.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [144]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:14:58 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] Problem layouts
<In-Reply-To: <022269AB-790A-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>
3Message-ID: <000001c30d2b$fb536fd0$42d5fea9@Estes>


> 
=> I'm trying to put together a list of problem layouts that 
> people often 
H> want to build but can't do so simply. The worst one is positioning a 
G> block element at the centre of the browser window. I know there are 
H> lots of ways to achieve or almost achieve the required effect, using 
I> 100% tables, margin:auto; or other options, but these are non-trivial 
;> solutions and use syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.
> 

GWhile I'm sure that you are about to get flamed by people, and rightly
6so, I just want to address one part of your position.

CYou stated in you thread above that margin:auto, was a non-trivial
:solution that uses syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.

"The CSS1 Spec specifically says :

F"Otherwise, if both 'margin-left' and 'margin-right' are 'auto', they
Ewill be set to equal values. This will center the element inside its

parent. "

GWhich means that it is exactly what it is intended to do, and with /2/
Hlines of code which could be simplified to /one/ line of code.  You set
Hmargin-left and margin-right to auto and it centers and that's how that
Gis accomplished.  If you are using other methods, then you are the one
Edoing it wrong not CSS.  That's "non-trivial"?...seems pretty simple
enough to me.

GOn another note, I find that my development efforts have been twice as
Ceasy as in traditional table layouts, and that most 'hacks' can be
Iavoided in many if not all circumstances by using a wee bit more code in
:your code.  You can review my "To hack or not to Hack" at
9http://www.bewb.org/archiveposts.asp?id=11, to read why.

FI feel (as the Lead Creative Artists and Lead Interface Developer for
Ethe company I work for) that I have much more freedom in design than
Hwhen I was faced with supporting legacy browsers.  I have intentionally
Dstepped up my designs because I know that with the power of CSS and
GXHTML, I can produce more vivid content in a more beatiful manner, all
Cwhile providing consistent renderings and with less code than ever
thought possible.

IOn one last note (and I said I was only addressing one point), there are
2quite a few "major" sites adopting CSS layouts.  

To name a few:
http://www.cingular.com 
http://www.search.yahoo.com 
http://www.pga.com 
http://www.wired.com 
http://www.espn.com


HWell anyway, I haven't found that there has been anything that I wanted
Ito create and couldn't because of the limitations of CSS and XHTML.  And
Hwith the additional support of CSS2 and then CSS3, we'll have even more
(to work with, and I for one can't wait!

Good luck to ya'

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
 


U13:43:44.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [145]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:17:39 -0500
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
<In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
3Message-ID: <000101c30d2c$5b0e6ce0$42d5fea9@Estes>


DThis is from the wiki http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsingEms

GA word of caution concerning IE. Be careful using ems. The most recent
Fversions of IE for Windows tend to flummox text with a font-size less
@than 1em ("0.5em", for instance). Percentages tend to work more
Gpredictably, and (for who knows what reason) are usually more accurate
H(possibly rounding errors?) than their em equivalents. Please note that
Ithis applies only to the font-size and line-height properties. All other
Cproperties for which ems are suitable (margins, padding, width and
Gheight, among others) are not so for percentages, since the latter are
Hcalculated according to the dimensions of parent elements. - ShawnAllen

H...and the other problem with EMs in IE is the resizing of them. If for
?instance you set the root element (either <body> or <html>) to
Ifont-size:1em, then just setting View > Text Size to "smaller" can cause
the text to become unreadable.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
 


> -----Original Message-----
-> From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
G> [mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Joel Young
'> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 8:03 PM
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
1> Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
> 
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
@> I searched the list archives for an answer but couldn't find 
> one, so it's 
&> either well hidden or non-existent.
> 
=> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a 
> global font size. 
@> Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as 
> IE6 in all 
> cases)...
> 
/> On a page with no other styling, I did this:
> 
>       body {font-size: .7em}
> 
>> In Mozilla, all my text is exactly the size I expected and 
> wanted it to be. 
A> In IE6, there's no effect. The font size stays at the default 
> 1em (100% / 
	> 16px).
> 
?> So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:
> 
>       body {font-size: .7em}
>       td {font-size: .7em}
> 
@> This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into 
> miniscule text 
> that Superman couldn't read.
> 
> 
?> So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since 
> all I'm doing 
>> is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in 
> all browsers - 
> aren't they?....
> 
$>       (no body styling this time)
>       td {font-size: .7em}
> 
I> That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a 
> strong pair of glasses.
> 
> 
;> All I want is to set a global font size, and make other 
> sizing changes 
)> where necessary. So what's the secret?
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
-> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] 
6> http://www.css-> discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> Supported 
> by evolt.org -- 
+> http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 


U13:43:44.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [146]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:55:42 +0930
Subject: [css-d] Content width
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
?	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net> <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
/Message-ID: <3EAC9126.6030101@adelaide.edu.au>

Steve Thomas wrote:

> ...
>
3> So there is an argument for using something like
>
'>     div.text { max-width:33em; ... }
>
E> to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of the 
> user's screen. 

HExperimentally, I've created a new ebook with a slight variation to my 
Hstandard style sheet, to see how this looks and works in practice. You 
Dcan see the result at http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/h/h27ro/

%The style sheet now reads (in part):

BODY {
-        margin-left: 3em; margin-right: 2em;
-        color: #000000; background: #ffffff;
}
/html>body { max-width:33em; margin:1em auto; }

EThe last line is the new bit, and this appears to work perfectly in 
DMozilla 1.3/Win. (Also prints beautifully.) It also displays OK on 
GIE6/Win, although the max-width doesn't work. Maybe "html>body" isn't 
Himplemented on IE6? (Can't find that browser compatibility chart right 
now -- too many bookmarks!)

HThis approach also means that it will display OK on NN4, which ignores 
the last line (I guess).

MI'd appreciate some feedback from those with Macs and/or different browsers.


	Regards,
Steve

-- 

Stephen Thomas, 
Senior Systems Analyst, 
University of Adelaide Library
UNIVERSITY OF ADELAIDE SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
'Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au 
2URL: http://www.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/

U13:43:44.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [147]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:26:22 -0500
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
<In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
3Message-ID: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>

 
<> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a
> global font size. 
@> Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as 
> IE6 in all 
> cases)...
> 

GI tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
7.1 on WinXP


<style type="text/css">
body,td {font-size:0.7em;}
	</style>


GBasically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
Hdoesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
Opera

Looks good in all of them.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org



U13:43:44.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [148]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:04:07 -0400
Subject: [css-d] Content width
0In-Reply-To: <3EAC9126.6030101@adelaide.edu.au>
7Message-ID: <003101c30d32$d59a2200$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

>  Steve Thomas :
"> <snip> Maybe "html>body" isn't 
> implemented on IE6? 

INope, IE ignores the html>body selector entirely... For sure on Win, and
Hif I remember correctly (which is always a gamble at this hour) also on
*Mac.  Reference the common Box Model Hack
6http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html.

--Josh

U13:43:44.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [149]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:10:16 -0400
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
=In-Reply-To: <000001c30d08$8ea98680$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>
7Message-ID: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Sam  Ellis (css-d) :
,> I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera, 
> Mac IE 5?
>  
@> Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
0> MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
>  
> Thanks ...
>  
.> ... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
>  
http://www.golfbreaks.com/

ICan't help with the Mac/Unix issues, sorry.  Hit your site with IE6 (Win
IXP) and thought it was a very sharp lookin' design!  Good work.  But hit
Hit with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
Ithe page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
need, lemme know.

--Josh

U13:43:44.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [150]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:16:35 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
;Message-ID: <D17FA29E-7927-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


7Looks good in Safari Beta 2 and Camino 0.7 on the Mac.

EIn IE 5 on OS X it looks good except the title area of the Featured 
IVenues portlet has gone awry, it is the height of the picture and fully 
Dcontains the image. I can provide a screenshot if you send me your 
;address (I joined the list after you posted your request).

Ben


FOn Monday, Apr 28, 2003, at 04:10 Europe/London, Josh Ambrutis wrote:

>
>
>> Sam  Ellis (css-d) :
,>> I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera,
>> Mac IE 5?
>>
A>> Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
1>> MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
>>
>> Thanks ...
>>
/>> ... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
>>
> http://www.golfbreaks.com/
>
G> Can't help with the Mac/Unix issues, sorry.  Hit your site with IE6 
> (Win
H> XP) and thought it was a very sharp lookin' design!  Good work.  But 
> hit
J> it with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
H> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if 
> you
> need, lemme know.
>
	> --Josh
>
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:44.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [151]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:29:33 +0900
Subject: [css-d] Content width
8In-Reply-To: <003101c30d32$d59a2200$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
=Message-ID: <A0FFF166-7929-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


>On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 12:04  PM, Josh Ambrutis wrote:

H> Nope, IE ignores the html>body selector entirely... For sure on Win, 
> and
J> if I remember correctly (which is always a gamble at this hour) also on
,> Mac.  Reference the common Box Model Hack
8> http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html.

GIE Mac does support html>body no problems. IE win does not understand 
the > child selector.

	Philippe
:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:44.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [152]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:31:16 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
4In-Reply-To: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

(At 11:26 PM 4/27/03, Jason Estes wrote:

H>I tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
>7.1 on WinXP
>
>
><style type="text/css">
>body,td {font-size:0.7em;}

></style>
>
>
H>Basically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
I>doesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
>Opera
>
>Looks good in all of them.



IFor some reason that's not working for me, and I'm using WinXP with the 
Lsame browser versions you listed.  I have the IE browser set to 'Smaller', 
Kand Moz at '100%', which I believe are their defaults. Or not? But still, 
Lresizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no 
clue.

JThe other thing is, and I should've mentioned this before, my tests were 
Gonly with no other styling in <body>, but for the actual page I'll be 
Kdoing, <body> will contain more than that, and I don't want the <td>'s to 
=have all those attributes. Sorry for not saying that before.

IIt's late where I am, so I'll pick this up tomorrow and see what's what.

Thanks!

Joel


U13:43:44.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [153]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:44:12 -0400
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
:	<5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
#Message-ID: <3EACA38C.2134@ij.net>

Joel Young wrote:
 
J> For some reason that's not working for me, and I'm using WinXP with the
M> same browser versions you listed.  I have the IE browser set to 'Smaller',
L> and Moz at '100%', which I believe are their defaults. Or not? But still,

FMoz defaults to 16px regardless of other settings. Moz font sizes are
Hnot impacted by system DPI setting except for the menu/chrome text, and
page text sized in points.

HIE defaults to medium. What medium (or other sizes) means to IE depends
Eon the system DPI setting, which defaults to 96. Medium at 96 DPI is
)16px. You can find other combinations at
;http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html

M> resizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no
> clue.

*Are you using an ancient Mozilla version?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:44.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [154]
=================
3From: webapprentice at onemain.com (Webapprentice)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:01:59 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
+Message-ID: <3EACA7B7.3070805@onemain.com>

Hello,

3I have a question about the use of width property.

8Look at this site in IE5.5+, Mozilla 1.0+, NS6.2+, etc.

+http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html

HThe middle white area, where there is a link to "See the style sheet," 
Iis not stretched all the way.  I'd like to stretch the white area so it 
?almost reaches the right white area but not colliding with it.

CI've tried "width: auto" and "width: 100%," but this doesn't work.

AI'm trying to mimic the final look with as much CSS as possible:
*http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/final.jpg

EYou can click the link "See the style sheet" to view the stylesheet.
!Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Stephen
U13:43:44.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [155]
=================
/From: nkaisare1 at hotmail.com (Niket Kaisare)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:20:40 +0000
;Subject: [css-d] Navigation links - list? (and Site Check)
6Message-ID: <Law14-F682aZcdjaS3600023087@hotmail.com>

Hi,

HI have four images (150*70px) as main navigation links and a list as a 
/sub-navigation. Currently, I have the links as
<div>
<a href=""><img></a>
#<ul><!-- List of sublinks --></ul>
<a href=""><img></a><br>
<a href=""><img></a><br>
<a href=""><img></a>
</div>

LI read on accessibility issues that there should be something other than a 
K<br> space or carriage return separating various links for accessibility. 
JHence I tried changing the main links also to a list. But the problem is 
'that in NS4.7, it gets displayed like:
  ---------
  | IMAGE |
* ---------
!(where * represents list marker)

HThis is no good because the display becomes confusing. It will be much 
better if display would be:
* ---------
  | IMAGE |
  ---------

+Second thing is that the page does a FOUC 
M(http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/fouc.asp) I tried the method mentioned in 
Athis article, but that didn't help... I still get FOUC in Opera.

URL for the specific page:
$http://atlanta.vibha.org/volunteer/
CSS for this page:
(http://atlanta.vibha.org/image/real.css

LAlso, this is my first project using CSS. So any suggestions for improving 
will be appreciated.

TIA
Niket

B_________________________________________________________________
<Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
1http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
U13:43:44.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [156]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:21:23 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
,Message-ID: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>

HAnyone here that plays on blogshares has probably noticed already that 
GSeyed (the owner) changed the navigation images to text the other day 
G(most likely to speed up load-time).  This led to an experiment on my 
Ipart to see how much I could clean up the code.  I started from scratch 
Jto make the Blogshares stock page[1] and ended up with a version that is 
Gvalid XHTML 1.0 Strict, 10kb smaller (20kb smaller if you include the 
Hsupporting images/javascript), fluid-width, relative font sizes (I did 
Fwhat was easiest, perhaps not the best method, so don't go off on me 
Ilike that ems vs % thread), and more Netscape-friendly (it's still ugly 
2and not easy to use, but at least it's readable).

HI'm mainly looking for a browser check. I've got Firebird (yesterday's 
Fnightly) and IE6, but I need others... especially Macs.  I know that 
DIE/Mac has a huge horiz. scroll due to the stock ticker, but there 
Edoesn't seem to be any way to fix that without causing all kinds of 
other problems.

FIf you've got any comments on the layout unrelated to the browser or 
*CSS, let me know anyway (maybe offlist?).

I[Note: I do not work for Blogshares. Seyed hasn't even seen this layout 
Byet, although I emailed him just before sending this to the list]

--
Marshall Roch

[1] 
Lhttp://www.blogshares.com/blogs.php?blog=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogshares.com%2F

U13:43:44.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [157]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:43:24 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
-In-Reply-To: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
,References: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
,Message-ID: <3EACB16C.4020309@exclupen.com>

Marshall Roch wrote:
J> I'm mainly looking for a browser check. I've got Firebird (yesterday's 
H> nightly) and IE6, but I need others... especially Macs.  I know that 
F> IE/Mac has a huge horiz. scroll due to the stock ticker, but there 
G> doesn't seem to be any way to fix that without causing all kinds of 
> other problems.

4Easier to help me if I include a link, huh?  Oops..

-http://www.exclupen.com/projects/blogshares/

--
Marshall Roch

U13:43:44.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [158]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:48:39 -0800
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
,References: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
'Message-ID: <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>


Marshall,
HOn ie5.1.5mac the 'GO' button is shifted underneath the input field on 
Jyour search form. Also, the background is missing to the left of the top 
Fbanner leaving a blank white space. The ticker is missing completely.

IOn ns7.02mac the ticker is overlayed atop the blue 'Fantasy Blog Shares 
JMarket' rule and is unreadable. It also takes up so many cpu cycles that 
9its making typing this creep along slowly and painfully.
--
Tony
U13:43:44.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [159]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:24:17 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <000001c30d57$30f3b660$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


>  
> http://www.golfbreaks.com/

J> it with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
K> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
> need, lemme know.

Thanks for the heads up.

LI had only checked with Opera 6, and I think I changed the css for that bar
recently - since testing

Sam


U13:43:44.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [160]
=================
*From: sasha at amm.com.au (Sasha Gerrand)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:30:57 +1000
8Subject: [css-d] Re: Moovigation - a screenshot request
8In-Reply-To: <oproadf2zb98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>
-Message-ID: <BAD315D1.BFD0%sasha@amm.com.au>

Try these:

3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-camino1.jpg
3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-camino1.jpg

3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-safari1.jpg
3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-safari2.jpg

HTH - both on OS X 10.2.5

Cheers,
Sasha

--=AD--=AD--=AD--=AD--
Sasha Gerrand
sasha@amm.com.au
+61 425 745 207

EOM=20

MNOTICE - This message and any attached files may contain information that i=
s
Lconfidential and/or subject of legal privilege intended only for use by the
Hintended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient or the person
Mresponsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, be advise=
d
Ithat you have received this message in error and that any dissemination,
Jcopying or use of this message or attachment is strictly forbidden, as is
Mthe disclosure of the information therein. If you have received this messag=
e
Fin error please notify the sender immediately and delete the message.

-> From: The Moose <moose@literarymoose.info>
#> Organization: LiteraryMoose.info
%> Reply-To: moose@literarymoose.info
(> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:41:52 -0500
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
6> Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
>=20
	> Hello,
>=20
L> I have played a bit with the display of the unordered lists when they are
L> used for navigation of a logical sequence of pages, and would like to ask
C> for screenshots from the following browsers: *Safari*, *Camino*,
> *Konqueror*.
>=20
F> There are two pages (I'd like to get screenshots for both from each
> browser):
>=20
=> http://www.literarymoose.info/=3D/destroy/moovigation.html
>=20
E> http://www.literarymoose.info/=3D/destroy/moovigation-variant.html
>=20
G> The first features generated content (with entities only) hidden via
L> html[xmlns] method, the second does not. Mozilla displays &#xxxx; instead
M> of the character on the second page (I don't know why). Opera7.1 behaves =
in
> both cases.
>=20
F> The size of screenshots does not matter, I'll be watching my inbox.
>=20
> thank you in advance,
>=20
	> Wojtek
>=20
> p.s. styles embedded.
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>=20
U13:43:44.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [161]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:34:47 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <000101c30d58$af49ac30$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


J> .. with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
K> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
> need, lemme know.

> -- Josh

;Just downloaded Opera 7.1 and I cannot see the problem ...

HIt looks as if your version of Opera is looking at the print stylesheet
E(try print previewing). What version are you using? It would be very
Guseful to see screenshots. Does anyone else know about Opera rendering
#css from a media=print stylesheet?

1.. maybe it is my use of the !important rule...?

FThe only issue I can see is that the text on the Features Venues goes
Cover the Request Brochure images (because of position: relative to
avoid the ie6 peekaboo bug)

Thanks

Sam

U13:43:44.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [162]
=================
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:42:17 +0200
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
4In-Reply-To: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
3References: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
)Message-ID: <oprobw0rt0yoq9u9@localhost>

JOn Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:26:22 -0500, Jason Estes <ckestes@bewb.org> wrote:

=>> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a
K>> global font size. Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the 
 >> same as IE6 in all cases)...

HIn Opera 7 and MSIE, you'll get behavior like Mozilla when you trigger 
KStandards mode. In Quirks mode rendering, font-sizes don't inherit into a 
Htables... In Opera 5-6 and MSIE 4-5.5 you are stuck, as these browsers 
don't have a Standards mode.

I> I tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
> 7.1 on WinXP
>
> <style type="text/css">
> body,td {font-size:0.7em;}
> </style>
>
I> Basically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
J> doesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
> Opera
>
> Looks good in all of them.

MIt shouldn't work that way according to the specs (TD fonts should be sized 
Lat .49 of the default size...), so it will probably break in Opera 7, MSIE 
H6 and Mozilla when you trigger Standards mode. But if you make sure to 
Ktrigger Quirks mode, this might be a compromise because it will also work 
in MSIE 4-5.5 and Opera 4-6.

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
@ making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com M
U13:43:44.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [163]
=================
4From: design at q7design.demon.co.uk (David Leader)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:35:04 +0100
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <p04330100bad1fbd43502@[194.222.231.193]>

DOn the topic of Safari uptake on MacOS X, I'd just like to mention 
Fthat at the moment Safari is the only Mac browser that supports Java 
C1.4. (I was suprised when I read this on a Mac Java list but I've 
Etested it and find that currently IE and Mozilla do not support the 
EJava 1.4 plugin) This may have nothing to do with css, but it has a 
Elot to do with the sort of reasons Mac users might switch to Safari 
Band why I presume Apple decided to have its own browser, i.e. to 
Densure Mac users were not dependent on third parties for access to 
$web content (e.g. on-line banking).

<It is clearly important from a css standpoint that as much 
Fconstructive criticism as possible is brought to bear to ensure that 
ESafari has good css support. One imagines Apple and the Safari will 
be receptive to this.

David
8From rick at starskiweb.co.uk  Mon Apr 28 09:10:55 2003
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:10:55 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
>In-Reply-To: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
=References: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
0Message-ID: <3EACE20F.6030806@starskiweb.co.uk>

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

G> Your <div id="myclear"> is empty, except for an absolute positioned 
J> image (which is taken out of the document flow any way). I deleted the 
L> 'width' on your #myclear, and added a non-breaking space in the div, and 
9> then your layout worked out exactly as in Mozilla 1.4.

FThanks for the advice Philippe, but I haven't managed to get mine to 
work using the above advice:-

+http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.2.htm

,The left border is still missing on IE5 mac

Iunless the person who is testing this for me has a different version of 
	mac IE5?
U13:43:44.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [164]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:46:49 +0900
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
1In-Reply-To: <3EACE20F.6030806@starskiweb.co.uk>
=Message-ID: <F34BB1E0-7955-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 05:10  PM, Rick Hurst wrote:

H> Thanks for the advice Philippe, but I haven't managed to get mine to 
 > work using the above advice:-
>
-> http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.2.htm
>
.> The left border is still missing on IE5 mac

,Comparing your stylesheet, and what I used:
#document-wrap {
	border-top:12px solid black;
	border-left:12px solid black;
	/*height: 100%;*/
}

II had commented out the height declaration, I should've mentioned it, I 
guess.

	Philippe
:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:44.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [165]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:19:14 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
3References: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
0 <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428061642.00bcf118@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>


>Joel Young wrote:
O> > resizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no

> > clue.


(At 12:44 AM 4/28/03, Felix Miata wrote:

+>Are you using an ancient Mozilla version?



NNo. I'm using 1.3... I use the most recent release of any browser I test on. 
U13:43:44.980 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [166]
=================
,From: tarquin at planetunreal.com (tarquin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:37:55 +0100
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
0Message-ID: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>

*what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
&as seen here to make rounded corners:

Hhttp://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

Gshould we avoid these because they are non-standard? (the same way we 
Eshould be avoiding IE-only stuff like scrollbar, filters, & marquee)

*is there a reference for these somewhere?

U13:43:44.980 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [167]
=================
,From: tarquin at planetunreal.com (tarquin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:47:05 +0100
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0References: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0Message-ID: <3EACF899.6050902@planetunreal.com>

tarquin wrote:

>
>
,> is there a reference for these somewhere?

found something:

Mhttp://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/nsextensions.htm
:-)

& started a page on the wiki

U13:43:44.984 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [168]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:24:32 -0400
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
=In-Reply-To: <000101c30d58$af49ac30$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>
7Message-ID: <002901c30d78$be93a6d0$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Sam Ellis (css-d) : 
=> Just downloaded Opera 7.1 and I cannot see the problem ...
> 
@> It looks as if your version of Opera is looking at the print 
> stylesheet
G> (try print previewing). What version are you using? It would be very
I> useful to see screenshots. Does anyone else know about Opera rendering
%> css from a media=print stylesheet?

)http://portalsmith.com/golfbreaks-ss.jpg

GOpera 7.02, Win XP.  Did a print preview, and while some of the layout
Gchanged, it didn't change much... Text links still unreadable, but the
?content switched from anchored left to centered, and the green
&backgrounds were dropped.  HTH a bit.

--Josh

U13:43:44.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [169]
=================
#From: liorean at f2o.org (liorean)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:55:49 +0200
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0References: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>

tarquin wrote:
,> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
(> as seen here to make rounded corners:
J> http://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

CThere are three reasons for vendor specific properties and values:
F1. Implementing a not-yet-standard css property, such as css3 rounded
	corners.
B2. Allowin the specification of behaviors and handling in css for
Ebehaviors that you can not for the momemnt achieve with your current
supported base of standards.
A3. Adding new functionality that neither can be defined in other
Ftechnologies for the web or is upcoming in an upcoming new or updated

standard.

EIn moz, we see quite a few cases of 1 and some of 2. I suppose there
:might be some 3 as well, but if so I don't know about it.
=In op7, we see 2 alone, from what I can tell - if their "web
4specifications supported in opera" page is correct.
/In ie, we see mainly a bunch of 3 and a few 2.
GIn saf/konq, I have no idea what may or may not exist when it comes to
4this, but I would think the engine is rather clean.

I> should we avoid these because they are non-standard? (the same way we 
G> should be avoiding IE-only stuff like scrollbar, filters, & marquee)

%You should stay clearly away from 3.
 You should consider avoiding 2.
%I see no reason to stay away from 1.

IYou should use 1 in combination with the W3C upcoming if you wish to use
that feature.

,> is there a reference for these somewhere?

1Oh, they are spread over the vendors using them.
Opera:
R<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/operaextensions.htm>
9Opera 7: <http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/#xml-css-link>
	Mozilla:
l<http://unstable.elemental.com/mozilla/build/latest/mozilla/dom/dox/interfacensIDOMNSCSS2Properties.html>, 

O<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/nsextensions.htm>
Microsoft:
I<http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/css/reference/attributes.asp>

FThere are also a few that MSDN doesn't contain any documentation for,
<like the expression(jsExpression) syntax. (It only contains
Idocumentation for the getExpression, setExpression and removeExpression,
Cand this document is about the best I can find about expression():
G<http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/recalc.asp>)

-- 
&liorean <mailto:liorean@user.bip.net>

HViewStyles, ViewScripts, ToggleStyles and GraphicsInfo bookmarklets and
)Theme Switcher, Cookies Handler scripts:
#<http://liorean.web-graphics.com/>

U13:43:44.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [170]
=================
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:52:03 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
(	<004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL>
4Message-ID: <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>

Hi Al,

>
> Here're a couple more:
G> http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
> problematic on Mac)

Msorry to disappoint you, but your menue doesn't work as intended on MSIE 5.0
Jon W2k. The menue just scrolls with the rest of the page. no fixed menue.
unfortunately.

greetings from germany,

Jens Grochtdreis
U13:43:44.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [171]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:04:11 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <002901c30d78$be93a6d0$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <001301c30d7e$4ba8cd20$6300a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


+> http://portalsmith.com/golfbreaks-ss.jpg
I> Opera 7.02, Win XP.  Did a print preview, and while some of the layout
I> changed, it didn't change much... Text links still unreadable, but the

Kthe links are meant to be small - this is for printing and if they are too
Jbig they much up the entire site (and take up too much screen realestate)
Kand as most people do not want to read them, they are in fine print - only
Iif the person wants to go to the page ... probably me being too hi-tech!

Glooks like Opera 7.02 is using all the !important css in the print.css
Estylesheet throughout the entire media range, instead of print only.

?I'm going try to download 7.02 to test, if not will post again

Cheers
Sam

U13:43:44.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [172]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:09:39 -0300
.Subject: (resend) Re: [css-d] ems or percent?
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

=(I think the email below may have gotten lost in the shuffle
'over the weekend, so I'm resending it.
8If I've broken any etiquette by doing so, I apologize.)



!At 09:20 PM 4/26/03, Mike wrote:
><snip>
N>On the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
J>your opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
H>settings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
>users, most of the time?
>
>Mike
>Edinburgh, Scotland




LYes! This is what my original question was about, and I'm glad you brought 
Lit back around, Mike. Hopefully someone will have an answer for us. In the 
Kmeantime, let's see if I understand a few things.  Someone please tell me 
<if I'm even close to knowing what I'm talking about.... :-)

===============
Scenario 1:
AAssume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}

?This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
#of the browser's default. Yes? No?
===============
Scenario 2:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 1em}

AAll text on the page will still be 80% of the browser's default,
=because basically 1em = 100%, and I'm only setting it to 20%
$less (which is 80%).  Right? Wrong?
===============
Scenario 3:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 0.9em}

:Okay, NOW the text will actually be just under 80% of the
:browser default, because it is 9/10ths of 80% of default.
===============
Scenario 4:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 100%}

=Again, the text remains at only 80% of default, because I've
Cset it to be 100% of the body font size (not that I would do that,
it's just for example)
===============
One more... Scenario 5:
body {font-size: 100%}
0.classname {font-size: 1em} or {font-size: 80%}

FHere, the text will either be the full browser default, or 80% of it.
Right?
===============


HIf all the above are correct, then it's just as easy to set the body at
D100% all the time, and simply use smaller percentages for different
sizes.
BThat, or do body {font-size: 100%}, and use various em sizes, and
Ceverything should work out - keeping the sizes within a reasonable
range, of course.

8Did I reach home base, or am I somewhere in left field?


Joel
U13:43:44.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [173]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:11:27 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234D@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

HCorrect me if I'm wrong, but min-height isn't supported in IE 5 on Mac,
right?

BIn that case, how do I get an element to adapt its size after its
	content,
8but that it will still be a specified height otherwise.

BFor example, I want a DIV to be at least 20 px height, but if its
content is more,=20
Fthen I want it to adapt its size (and the whole document's flow after
that).

?This works with min-height:20px; in Opera, Gecko etc, and with
height:20px; in IE on PC.
GBut in IE 5 on Mac the height is only 20 px no matter the content (and
if the content is
0more, it just flows outside of the element...).

Any solutions for this?


/Robert
1From rijk at opera.com  Mon Apr 28 13:13:59 2003
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:13:59 +0200
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
(In-Reply-To: <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>
KReferences: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com> <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>
)Message-ID: <oprob9llpayoq9u9@localhost>

EOn Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:55:49 +0200, liorean <liorean@f2o.org> wrote:

> tarquin wrote:
->> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
)>> as seen here to make rounded corners:
K>> http://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

GThis page looks fine (maybe a bit boxy) in Opera 7. No harm done, IMO.

E> There are three reasons for vendor specific properties and values:
H> 1. Implementing a not-yet-standard css property, such as css3 rounded
> corners.
E> 2. Allowing the specification of behaviors and handling in css for
G> behaviors that you can not for the momemnt achieve with your current
> supported base of standards.
C> 3. Adding new functionality that neither can be defined in other
H> technologies for the web or is upcoming in an upcoming new or updated
> standard.
[..]
'> You should stay clearly away from 3.
"> You should consider avoiding 2.
'> I see no reason to stay away from 1.
>
K> You should use 1 in combination with the W3C upcoming if you wish to use
> that feature.

IFor both 1, 2 and 3 it is important that the page doesn't depend on the 
Inon-standard property to be useful and good looking. But even when they 
Kdon't cause problems in other browsers, it is best to avoid such features 
Lif you want to build robust public pages. Even in category 1, the property 
Kmight change a bit before it gets into the standard, and it might be also 
Kproblematic when someone else has to take over the maintainance of a page.

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
> making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com
U13:43:44.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [174]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:30:01 +0900
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234D@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
=Message-ID: <220371DF-7975-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


=On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 09:11  PM, Robert Nyman wrote:

J> Correct me if I'm wrong, but min-height isn't supported in IE 5 on Mac,
	> right?

Nope, doesn't work in IE5 mac.
>
D> In that case, how do I get an element to adapt its size after its
> content,
:> but that it will still be a specified height otherwise.
>
D> For example, I want a DIV to be at least 20 px height, but if its
> content is more,
H> then I want it to adapt its size (and the whole document's flow after
	> that).
>

BUsing the intrinsic (is that the word ?) height of the element ? 
?Without a real sample it is a bit difficult to say, of course.
;div {border:1px solid #000; padding: 2px, font-size:12px; 
3line-height:14px;} should give something you want.

Or do I miss something ?

	Philippe


:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:44.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [175]
=================
#From: eoghan at redry.net (eoghan)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:49:01 +0100
 Subject: [css-d] select problem
)Message-ID: <3EAD233D.3000203@redry.net>

hello,
Di am referring to a problem that occurs in particular with ie5+ on 
windows. the
J<select> form element is apparently described as a "windowed elements"...
Eso this means that they should paint themselves on top of all other 
elements on a
Hpage. so, when using dropdown menus, selects will appear through them. 
this behaviour
Fdoesnt occur in nn7/moz1+ or firebird0.5. however, these browsers do 
have problems
Ewhen the "multiple" attribute is applied to the select, or when the 
select is opened.
Di was wondering if anyone else had come across this issue. using a 
z-index in this
Fcase will not work. and apart from avoiding this problem, has anyone 
come up with
&any workarounds for this issue. for a
small example, see here:

-http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/css/001.html

thanks

U13:43:44.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [176]
=================
.From: moose at literarymoose.info (The Moose)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:45:20 -0500
4Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
.In-Reply-To: <3EAD1DF2.1020700@jeugdhuisx.be>
-References: <3EAD1DF2.1020700@jeugdhuisx.be>
7Message-ID: <oproca1u1m98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>

M> You'd have to encode the entities with the \xxxx values. I think they are 
 > in hex, but am not 100% sure.

MWell, thank you kindly, my good sir! You have helped me more than you would 
Jthink. I have now made the variant obsolete, and rewrote the entities in 
Mhex (eg. content: "\xxxx", " ";). Now I must start rewriting where thus far 
I had misused it.

grazie,

Wojtek

Hp.s. I now have screenshots complete. Many thanks to everyone who sent 
theirs.
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Mon Apr 28 13:57:44 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:57:44 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234E@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

5> line-height:14px;} should give something you want.
> Or do I miss something ?

'Line-height won't help in this case...

Well, take this example:

div.levelItem{
	position:relative;
	width:100px;
	border:1px solid black;	=09
	background:#ffffa2;
	min-height:20px;
}

"and then for IE on PC I add this:

div.levelItem{
	height:20px;
}

HBut if the content is, for instance, a full sentence, I want the DIV to
expand its height
2according to the space that the sentence takes up
I(which works with min-height, and in IE on PC it resizes automatically).

2How do I get that kind of resizing for IE on Mac?


/Robert

U13:43:44.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [177]
=================
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:02:51 -0400
Subject: [css-d] Flash & CSS ?
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>


Dear all,

.I was asked the following question last week:

D"Can you use FLASH in the same way as you can with images in CSS to
7provide background and/or rollover effects for links".

IMy first reaction was no as (I believe) FLASH has to be the top layer of
Da web page and also how would you code the EMBED statement?  Then I
Dthought I'd ask here as CSS is still fairly new to me and maybe I'm
missing something.


Comments?

Thanks,

Dave
U13:43:44.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [178]
=================
3From: web2k2 at premonition.co.uk (Geoff Sheridan)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:39:17 +0100
Subject: [css-d] Flash & CSS ?
In-Reply-To: 
K <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>
References: 
K <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>
2Message-ID: <p0510030dbad2ddc8ef7c@[192.168.8.3]>

E>"Can you use FLASH in the same way as you can with images in CSS to
8>provide background and/or rollover effects for links".
>
J>My first reaction was no as (I believe) FLASH has to be the top layer of
E>a web page and also how would you code the EMBED statement?  Then I
E>thought I'd ask here as CSS is still fairly new to me and maybe I'm
>missing something.

?Your first reaction was right. Unless you did something like :
a:hover object {display:none;}
Din which case you can probably hide/show flash content on rollover.
6I haven't tested and certainly do not recommend this.
FWhat's the point, when flash contains it's own rollover events which 
)are likely to give a much better result?
AIt would be nice to be able to have flash content as background 
Bimages 'tho. I can imagine this being egregiously misused but it 
;would be very handy for all sorts of great visual effects.

Geoff
;From moronicbajebus at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 28 14:48:36 2003
1From: moronicbajebus at yahoo.com (Seamus Leahy)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:48:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
AMessage-ID: <20030428134836.91265.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com>


.--- tarquin <tarquin@planetunreal.com> wrote:
,> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?

7I think the -moz rules were created for effects in the
3user interface of Mozilla because XUL (the Mozilla
interface) uses CSS. 



#__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
/The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Mon Apr 28 14:51:43 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:51:43 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234F@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

!> div {height: 20px;} /*IE win*/
?> html>body div {min-height:20px; height:auto;} /*all others*/

EBut that doesn't solve my problem with IE on Mac. I have no problems
with
8getting it to work for IE on PC and all other browsers.

DThe only one that it doesn't work in is in IE on Mac, which doesn't
understand min-height,
Ghence it doesn't get the element to expand its size accordingly to the
!text, not even with height:auto.


/Robert
U13:43:44.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [179]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:12:39 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052FE@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

7> The only one that it doesn't work in is in IE on Mac


My bad...
8Using height:auto and line-height solved the problem...

/Robert
8From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Mon Apr 28 15:48:12 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:48:12 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] Redesign Problem
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C7420F@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

LI have got a problem with a redesign and am wondering if anyone can help me
out.

MI have a class that defines the look of a div and I apply it to each section
Cof the navigation bar on the left.  Oddly enough, the border color
Dcharacteristics are not being displayed on the home page (the other
Lcharacteristics do work), but do work on other pages.  The code "should" be
Lthe same, with the exception of no active "Home" link on the home page (the
Monly real code difference I can tell is that the other pages are being drawn
Kvia an include statement, but doing so on the home page still exhibits the

problem).

HThe home page is located at http://test.usna.com/, and if you click the
MEvents link you will see how it should be displayed.  I've looked and looked
Kat this and just can't figure out why the home page is not being displayed

properly.

Thanks for looking -

george
U13:43:44.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [180]
=================
3From: christopher at christopher.org (Christopher)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:24:18 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] ANNC: 50+ Headings
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052FE@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
9Message-ID: <BAD2BFE2.10978%christopher@christopher.org>

	Hi, all,

@Headings in Web pages--marked up with h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, or h6
Melements=8B-help the reader determine the purpose of sections in content. It
Halso does one other thing: it helps the reader judge if the material is
something they want to read.

JThe only problem is that the default rendering of those headings is often
visually bland.

KIn order to help people create better designed headings, I've released the
KCSS resource, 50+ Headings, where you can see up to fifty headings designs
and their variations.

JYou can submit their own heading variations as well--which represents the
"plus" in the title.

3< http://www.cssbook.com/resources/css/headings/ >


Best,
Christopher Schmitt
?  Author, "Designing CSS Web Pages" -- http://www.cssbook.com/
>  Web Design Specialist -- http://www.christopherschmitt.com/
U13:43:44.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [181]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:35:36 -0700
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
CMessage-ID: <OFD278A69D.7CC3E6CA-ON88256D16.00545AA2@capgroup.com>


Joel Young wrote:

?> So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:
>
>       body {font-size: .7em}
>       td {font-size: .7em}
>
I> This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule
text
> that Superman couldn't read.
>
>
L> So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing

L> is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers -

> aren't they?....
>
$>       (no body styling this time)
>       td {font-size: .7em}
>
H> That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a
> strong pair of glasses.

Welcome, Joel!

There are two tricks here:

H1) IE does not inherit font sizes through the table tag, but the td tag
Ldoes inherit correctly. Instead of the body/td style combo above, try this:

    body {font-size: 70%}
    table {font-size: 100%}

JThis tells IE to inherit the font size through the table, which will then
Eallow the td fonts to size correctly. It also doesn't cause any side
Leffects in more compliant browsers, because 100% of 100% is, well, 100%. If
Lyou have reasons to change font sizes for specific td's, this also lets you
Gdo so without worrying about clobbering the browser compatibility fix.

H2) Jason Estes mentioned the issue with setting font sizes in ems -- it
Icauses IE to do strange things when the browser is set to anything other
Lthan "Medium". I can't agree more strongly, with respect with the body font
Hsize. Basically, IE will misbehave if you use ems as the font-size that
2everything else is relative to, so something like

    body {font-size: 0.7em}
    cite {font-size: 0.9em}

Kwill shrink to unreadable proportions. If, however, you set your outermost
Lfont-size using percents, you can then make all other font sizes in ems, if
2you prefer reading them that way. In other words,

    body {font-size: 70%}
    cite (font-size: 0.9em}

will behave correctly.

HTH,

MikeL
U13:43:44.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [182]
=================
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:46:41 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
5In-Reply-To: <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
P	<004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL> <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>
/Message-ID: <3EAD4CE1.9010008@star-chaser.com>

Jens Grochtdreis wrote:
	> Hi Al,
> 
> 
>>Here're a couple more:
G>>http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
>>problematic on Mac)
> 
> 
O> sorry to disappoint you, but your menue doesn't work as intended on MSIE 5.0
L> on W2k. The menue just scrolls with the rest of the page. no fixed menue.
> unfortunately.
> 
> greetings from germany,
> 
> Jens Grochtdreis

@Why not take the time to read the material before posting? The 
Cinformation on the page makes no mention of it working in IE5 Win.

<quote>
B"It will work as intended in MSIE5-MAC, MSIE6-PC, Netscape 6.2+, 
GNetscape 7, Mozilla 1x, and Opera5+. It will degrade nicely in lesser 
browsers."
	</quote>

Gary

U13:43:44.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [183]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:13:50 -0400
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
*In-Reply-To: <oprob9llpayoq9u9@localhost>
5Message-ID: <BAD2CB7E.53E2B%chris@placenamehere.com>

Bon 4/28/03 8:13 AM, Rijk van Geijtenbeek at rijk@opera.com wrote:

> 
J> For both 1, 2 and 3 it is important that the page doesn't depend on the
J> non-standard property to be useful and good looking. But even when they
L> don't cause problems in other browsers, it is best to avoid such features
M> if you want to build robust public pages. Even in category 1, the property
L> might change a bit before it gets into the standard, and it might be also
M> problematic when someone else has to take over the maintainance of a page.

EI'd like reiterate the point about "change a bit" as there's nothing
Dstopping the VND in question not for changing the property at will.

FI'll take the -moz- extensions as an example. Those that are there to
Fprovide an implementation of the spec before its a recommendation are
Iexpected to change. Because the spec may change there is no promise of a
Ldirect translation from "-moz-property" to "property". When "property" gets
Gfinalized and support is in the browser -moz-property and property may
Iactually conflict so if you think you're smart by sneaking "property" in
Itheir for forward compatibility expect to have to edit your pages anyway
=(although I don't know what the odds of this happening are).

LThere is no promise of backwards compatibility within the extension itself.
A real example this time:

MThere was once a time before bug 195883 where -moz-opacity would accept both
D%age units and floating point values between 0 & 1. Well, we're now
Apost-195883 and %ages don't work anymore. Sucks to be anyone who
Kexperimented with them in the past only to have long forgotten demos break
(me included).

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:44.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [184]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:55:36 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>

�Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.

! 1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
 3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
 4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
 5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
/From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Apr 28 17:55:50 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:55:50 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304280947420.26619-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

4On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Ian Hickson (that's me) wrote:
+> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
>>
B>> The only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is
D>> "screen", so /technically/ other media types would never see the
>> embedded @media stuff.
>
I> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has delegated
I> authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS working group, who has
*> decided to change the default to "all".
>
G> Unfortunately I can't find a public reference to this decision. I'll
> look into it.

0I've found a formal reference to this decision:

c   http://hades.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/voyager-issues/HTML-4.01?id=528;expression=screen;user=guest

EThat's the relevant entry in the HTML working group issues database.

HTH,
-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
4From afternoon at uk2.net  Mon Apr 28 18:15:24 2003
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:15:24 +0100
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
;Message-ID: <000B1247-799D-11D7-88C8-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


DObviously this is not the complete answer, but I've had my copy of 
2Safari confused for the mythical NS 5 before now.

Ben


FOn Monday, Apr 28, 2003, at 17:55 Europe/London, Bill Creswell wrote:

G> Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is 
I> that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.
>
">  1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91
!>  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33
 >  3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10
>  4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8
>  5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7
>
> Bill Creswell
> Helpdesk/Webmaster
> Van Eerden Distribution
> http://www.vaneerden.com
> (616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:44.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [185]
=================
+From: dnelson at netbank.com (Dave Nelson)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:02:07 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OMessage-ID: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBA5@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>

KI think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 6.1
0was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x

-----Original Message-----
2From: Bill Creswell [mailto:BillC@VanEerden.com] 
&Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 12:56 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?


IWebtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that
Btracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.

! 1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
 3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
 4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
 5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
5From me at chrismcleod.net  Mon Apr 28 19:21:28 2003
+From: me at chrismcleod.net (Chris McLeod)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:21:28 +0100
ISubject: [css-d] a div that is at least the full height of the window...
FMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030428185406.00b18cd0@mail.qawebhosting.com>

MI've been trying to create a ALA style layout for a site template. This bit 
Jis all simple enough... However, I need the main content area to stretch 
Hthe full height of the window at the very least. The content area is a 
Mdifferent colour from the page background, and it looks a bit silly as just 
a block in the upper corner.

JI've tried height and min-height equal to 100% or auto, but neither have 
Cworked at all, if the positioning is done with floats or relative 
Kpositioning. If I set the positioning to absolute, it works but it forces 
-scroll bars, which is obviously undesirable.

LIs it possible to have a floated div fill the entire height of the window? 
KOr will I have to create the effect using a background image (which is my 
backup plan...)


Thanks,


Chris.
U13:43:44.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [186]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:26:41 +0100
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
0Message-ID: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>

HIs there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without 
%having to specifically overide them?

GWe are doing some work on a content management system interface where 
Jstyles have already been applied to selectors such as <p> and we want to 
C  "reset" them for certain situations without editing the default 
stylesheet.

Be.g. if the styles already applied in the default stylesheet are 
something like:-

)p {font-size:2em;color:red;margin:20px;}

:and in our custom interface we want to use something like

G#mystyle p {(ignore all styles already applied to p without overiding 
them one by one)}
U13:43:44.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [187]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:51:15 -0500
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
0References: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
7Message-ID: <003901c30db7$25e162d0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

I> Is there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without
'> having to specifically overide them?


MYou can use the specificity in CSS to override the values.  So if the values
)are originally set with p {declarations}
Jyou can use body p{declarations} which has a higher specificity.  You can
3replace body with whatever the parent selector is.

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


U13:43:44.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [188]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:41:56 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>

L>I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 6.1
1>was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x

{Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4 (which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent string).\

Bill
<From svendtofte at svendtofte.com  Mon Apr 28 20:01:35 2003
1From: svendtofte at svendtofte.com (Svend Tofte)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:01:35 +0200
<Subject: SV: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
8In-Reply-To: <003901c30db7$25e162d0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
EMessage-ID: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>

JYou'd still have to override all the individual rules, no? Otherwise they
would cascade in.

D> You can use the specificity in CSS to override the values.  So if
> the values
+> are originally set with p {declarations}
L> you can use body p{declarations} which has a higher specificity.  You can
5> replace body with whatever the parent selector is.
U13:43:44.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [189]
=================
#From: ksoh at colby.edu (Karen Oh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:18:15 -0400
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
8In-Reply-To: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
7References: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
6Message-ID: <a05111b0dbad32e3aed12@[137.146.196.147]>


(>http://blogstreetjournal.com/index.php

Hi,
 not sure if you got feedback. .

Mac OS 9.2

IE5
Fonts are teeny
D3-column layout, 1st and 2nd col touch, 2nd and 3rd do not (have a 
little gutter between them).

02nd col is not vertically aligned with 1 and 3.

NN4.7
:Not that legible--degrades poorly, overlapping text, etc.

NN7
;Looks Great! (Fonts may be a little bigger. . . like 12px)

hth,
karen
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Mon Apr 28 20:19:31 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:19:31 -0500
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
7Message-ID: <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> You'd still have to override all the individual rules, no? Otherwise they
> would cascade in.
>


2In the original email he said they were set up as

p {declarations}

and wanted something like

#mysite p {declarations}

Kbut instead of applying an ID which would require modifying the markup, he
could just use a selector like

J#wrapper p {declarations} where #wrapper is already the <div> surrounding
Mthe content area. of if he wanted to apply the styles to all the p's then he

could use

Dbody p {declarations} which would apply to all the p's on the page.

GIt's hard to account for specific circumstances of inheritance without
Iseeing the code though.  Maybe Rick could provide us some sample of what

he's got.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

U13:43:44.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [190]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:16:29 -0400
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
1In-Reply-To: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
0References: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
4Message-ID: <17715762453.20030428151629@mrclay.org>

6Monday, April 28, 2003, 2:26:41 PM, Rick Hurst wrote:
LRH> Is there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without 
)RH> having to specifically overide them?

BNo, *however*, you can use a copy of Mozilla's HTML.css file (the
Gbrowser's default stylesheet) as a guide to help you return properties
Cto their original values.  If you know a property was set and that
;property can have a value of "inherit", set it to inherit.

JRH> We are doing some work on a content management system interface where
%RH> styles have already been applied

GIf a stylesheet is out of your control, it's out of your control.  You
Ecan disable a stylesheet with javascript, but this isn't a solution.
FYour situation is similar to writing a user stylesheet - In your case
Hthe author is your CMS.  The only way is to redefine all the properties
you need control over.

FThis is another good reason to write stylesheets to take advantage of
Dinheritance.  It easier for everyone to write stylesheets to extend
the existing one.

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
U13:43:44.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [191]
=================
0From: lists at dramatic.co.nz (Richard Grevers)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:45:36 +1200
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>
IReferences: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>
)Message-ID: <oprocuiajczs1r4a@localhost>

IOn Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:41:56 -0400, Bill Creswell <BillC@VanEerden.com> 
!gave utterance to the following:

K>> I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 
>> 6.1
3>> was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x
>
J> Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4 
6> (which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent string).\
>
JOr any other Mozilla from around 0.5 onwards - False reports of Netscape 
:5.0 have been cropping up in stats for a year or two now.

-- 
HUsing M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
7From gary at star-chaser.com  Mon Apr 28 20:54:02 2003
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:54:02 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
IReferences: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
/Message-ID: <3EAD86DA.9090706@star-chaser.com>

Bill Creswell wrote:
�> Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.
> 
#>  1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
">  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
!>  3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
>  4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
>  5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 
> 
Elooks like your logs are identifying Mozilla as Netscape, All gecko 
Fbased browsers id themselves as mozilla/5.0 unless they have been re 
Ibranded. you have to look at the whole string to determine what browser 
it is.

example netscape 7.0 string
CMozilla/5.0 (windows; U; NT4.0; en-us) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0

A mozilla string
:  Mozilla/5.001 (windows; U; NT4.0; en-us) Gecko/25250101

IIf they have been re branded then they will still use Mozilla and gecko 
in their string.

C  Mozilla/9.876 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i686, en) Gecko/25250101 
 Netscape/5.432b1 (C-MindSpring)


HTH
Gary


Gary Bland
StarChaser Web Architecture
http://star-chaser.com
 Building Tomorrow's World Today
U13:43:45.039 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [192]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:08:15 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
(In-Reply-To: <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>
GReferences: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com> <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>
,Message-ID: <3EAD8A2F.4080603@exclupen.com>

Tony Bounds wrote:

> Marshall,
J> On ie5.1.5mac the 'GO' button is shifted underneath the input field on 
L> your search form. Also, the background is missing to the left of the top 
H> banner leaving a blank white space. The ticker is missing completely.

4I'm at a loss to why that background isn't working.

 This was the rule for that div:


#header {
padding-right: 10px;
9background: url('images/logo_bg.gif') top left repeat-x;
text-align: right;
}

8I just changed the 's to "s, let me know if that helps.

K> On ns7.02mac the ticker is overlayed atop the blue 'Fantasy Blog Shares 
L> Market' rule and is unreadable. It also takes up so many cpu cycles that 
;> its making typing this creep along slowly and painfully.

GI don't know what to do about that ticker... It's from DevEdge[1], but
Hit doesn't work very well in Netscape anyway.  To get it to stay inside
Ethe width that I need it, I had to set it absolutely inside the main
Fcolumn div, which has margins the size of the left and right columns.
IHowever, it was overlapping the title (BlogShares - Blah blah blah) so I
?gave it a top: -20px; which causes that overlap of the logo in
0Opera7/Win too.  Any ideas on what to do there?

II'm not sure what to do about the slowness of it.. Does anyone know of a
Ecross-browser ticker that uses HTML to store the content (instead of
embedding it in a JS)?

--
Marshall Roch

D[1] http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/examples/2001/stock-ticker/


U13:43:45.039 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [193]
=================
2From: cicero2002 at centrum.cz (bill shakespeare)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:16:25 +0200
"Subject: [css-d] Redesign Problem
@Message-ID: <20030428201632Z317121-615+143500@mail2.centrum.cz>


George,

EThere are many, many "deep-water mines" concealed from an untrained 
Beye in your code.  Incidentally, whatever happened to those mine 
Gsniffing dolphins, plowing the waters of the Gulf ?  The last I heard 
-of them was a week or so into the Operation.

Problemo Uno:

FYour front page sports a different doctype from that of Events.htm.  
4Believe it or not, I may make a helluva difference.

Problemo Due:

0Your front page sports, furthermore, this line:

,<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>

GI recommend tossing it out.  Most of the time it's more of a nuisance 
6than a benefit.  It may send IE6/Win into a tailspin.

Problemo Tre:

AThe best practice calls for introducing a stylesheet before any 
JavaScript.

DRectifying the problems does not guarantee a desired effect.  Yet, 
it's a very good start.


--------------------
�Vyhrajte kuchy� za 200 000 K�, leteck� z�jezd a dal�� zaj�mav� ceny! Z��astn�te se �ten��sk� ankety IDE�LN� MU� na http://zena.centrum.cz/ideal


U13:43:45.043 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [194]
=================
5From: incoming at kubaton.com (incoming@kubaton.com)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:42:39 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
KMessage-ID: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>

,Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?

http://riotgrrrl.com/

GThe "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
Jhaving it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
Icouldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?

_Lea
U13:43:45.044 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [195]
=================
.From: csslist at theparagon.org ({ schaapy })
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:01:39 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
LIn-Reply-To: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
3Message-ID: <BAD30EF3.1F95%csslist@theparagon.org>



I would do something like:


#header {
    height: 15px;
}

#header.letters {
    float: left;
}



<div id="header">
!    <div class="letters">r</div>
!    <div class="letters">i</div>
!    <div class="letters">o</div>
!    <div class="letters">t</div>
</div>


IGive each letter a transparent background - this will let you change the
'color of the top bar if you so choose.

------------------------------
Aaron Schaap
www.theparagon.org

+They tell me the internet never sleeps ...
1... Evidently, that means I don't get to either.

> From: <incoming@kubaton.com>
(> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:42:39 -0400
.> To: "'Css-D'" <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
?> Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
> 
.> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
> 
> http://riotgrrrl.com/
> 
I> The "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
L> having it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
K> couldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?
> 
> _Lea
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 
U13:43:45.045 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [196]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:13:30 -0500
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
7Message-ID: <008301c30dcb$050b1380$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>


.> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
>
> http://riotgrrrl.com/
>
I> The "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
L> having it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
K> couldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?


LHere you go, I couldn't tell if it worked perfectly cause I didn't have the
+images, but looks ok from what I can tell.

A<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//Ddiv HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>
<head>
" <title>Untitled Document</title>
J <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
=   <link href="global.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
   <style type="text/css">
    body {
    margin:0;
    padding:0;
}
   .piece {
    text-align:center;
 width:6%;
; background-image:url(images/top/background.png) repeat-x;
 float:left;
 }
   .heading2 {
    clear:both;
 }
   </style>


</head>

<body>

<div id="topbanner">
K  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/left.png" width="16" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/i.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/o.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/t.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/g.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r2.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r3.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r4.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/l.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
J  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/dot.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/c.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/o2.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/m.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
L  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/right.png" width="16" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
</div>

7<p class="heading2">New &amp; Improved Coming Soon</p>

</body>

</html>

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


U13:43:45.045 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [197]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:13:32 -0400
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
CReferences: <OFD278A69D.7CC3E6CA-ON88256D16.00545AA2@capgroup.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAD997C.4DB1@ij.net>

#Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
 
> Joel Young wrote:
 
A> > So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:

!> >       body {font-size: .7em}
> >       td {font-size: .7em}

P> > This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule text
!> > that Superman couldn't read.

N> > So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing

N> > is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers -

> > aren't they?....

&> >       (no body styling this time)
> >       td {font-size: .7em}

J> > That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a
> > strong pair of glasses.
 
> There are two tricks here:
 
J> 1) IE does not inherit font sizes through the table tag, but the td tag
N> does inherit correctly. Instead of the body/td style combo above, try this:
 
>     body {font-size: 70%}
>     table {font-size: 100%}
 
L> This tells IE to inherit the font size through the table, which will then
G> allow the td fonts to size correctly. It also doesn't cause any side
N> effects in more compliant browsers, because 100% of 100% is, well, 100%. If
N> you have reasons to change font sizes for specific td's, this also lets you
I> do so without worrying about clobbering the browser compatibility fix.
 
J> 2) Jason Estes mentioned the issue with setting font sizes in ems -- it
K> causes IE to do strange things when the browser is set to anything other
N> than "Medium". I can't agree more strongly, with respect with the body font
J> size. Basically, IE will misbehave if you use ems as the font-size that
4> everything else is relative to, so something like
 
>     body {font-size: 0.7em}
>     cite {font-size: 0.9em}
 
M> will shrink to unreadable proportions. If, however, you set your outermost
N> font-size using percents, you can then make all other font sizes in ems, if
4> you prefer reading them that way. In other words,
> 
>     body {font-size: 70%}
>     cite (font-size: 0.9em}
> 
> will behave correctly.

ISince Matthew Davey started the ems or percent? thread over the weekend,
FI've been playing around with IE6 off and on trying to understand the
@pattern. NAICT so far, and using standards mode exclusively, IE
Dmisbehaves on font-size inheritance under more conditions than just
.tables. I just haven't found the pattern yet.

HFor example, at http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ie/IE6tB.html, which
Ehas only two font-size rules applied to the whole page (table=100% &
Gtd=.8em), upon setting IE6 to "smaller" and Gecko to 13px, the first 6
Enon-blank rows (1 apparent paragraph) display the same font sizes in
2both Gecko and IE, since all are specified in px.

AThe next apparent paragraph (3 rows) match the first two rows at
I13px=medium and 12px=small. In the next row, Gecko shows x-small at 10px
3(leaving 9px for xx-small), while IE drops to 9px.

HThe 3rd apparent paragraph (3 rows) shows matches only in the first row
Hat 13px=medium. The next two rows exhibit the mis-sizing problem in IE,
Iwhile they display as expected in Gecko, which correctly applies .8em to
Athe 2nd row and .8emX.8em=.64em to the third row. Note that this
Fparagraph is three nested divs, no tables, and yet what IE appears to
Ehave done is apply .8emX.8em to row two, and .8emX.8emX.8em=.51em or
(.8emX.8emX.8emX.8em=.41em to row three.

FNext 2 paragraphs/rows are simply for reference for what follows, but
Enote that .8em is smaller in IE, even though the default is the same
13px.

FLast, is a three row table, with another table in the 2nd row. Again,
EGecko renders exactly as expected. In contrast, IE, which supposedly
Ifubars em text sizing *too small* if a % size is not set in body or html
Fand not set in prefs to medium, displays the first two rows, sized in
(ems, *larger* than Gecko. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.045 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [198]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:26:14 -0500
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
3References: <BAD30EF3.1F95%csslist@theparagon.org>
7Message-ID: <008901c30dcc$cc8789b0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

>
> I would do something like:
>
> #header {
>     height: 15px;
> }
>
> #header.letters {
>     float: left;
> }
>
>
>
> <div id="header">
#>     <div class="letters">r</div>
#>     <div class="letters">i</div>
#>     <div class="letters">o</div>
#>     <div class="letters">t</div>
	> </div>

JThe only problem with this is that you didn't explicitly set the width of
Ethe letters, which is required for floats.  That is until CSS 2.1 is
Jfinalized.  If you use this without explicit declaration of width it will
@break in IE 5.x on the mac, most other browsers will display it
appropriately..


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org



U13:43:45.045 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [199]
=================
*From: andrewyao at yahoo.com (Andrew Yao)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
AMessage-ID: <20030428224834.33497.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com>


Hi Folks,

7There is a subtle effect with both solutions presented
2so far: when you resie the browser width so it is
7smaller than the combined width of all the images, the
7banner will wrap into multiple lines.. I don't know if
this is the desired effect.

-I propose to use multiple spans in a div and
white-space:nowrap 

<html>
	<head>
#		<title>Untitled Document</title>
		<style type="text/css">
			#topbanner {
				white-space:nowrap;
5				background-image:url(images/top/background.png);
 				background-repeat:repeat-x;
			}
			#topbanner span {
				width:6%;
			}
		</style>
		</head>
	<body>
		<div id="topbanner">
3			<span><img src="images/top/left.png" width="16"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/r.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/i.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/o.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/t.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/g.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r2.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r3.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r4.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/l.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
2			<span><img src="images/top/dot.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/c.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/o2.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/m.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
4			<span><img src="images/top/right.png" width="16"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
			</div>
		</body>
</html>

cheers

Andrew

#__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
/The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
3From steve at mrclay.org  Tue Apr 29 00:20:41 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:20:41 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
LIn-Reply-To: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
5Message-ID: <156730414296.20030428192041@mrclay.org>

@Monday, April 28, 2003, 4:42:39 PM, incoming@kubaton.com wrote:
1ikc> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
ikc> http://riotgrrrl.com/

+Fun stuff.  http://mrclay.org/secret/riot/
EThis uses all spans and background-images, so no messy imgs or block
2containers in markup.  A min-width prevents wrap.

Moz/Opera7: works great.
'IE6: fine, but right piece is missing.
Others: shudder to imagine.

?Since this is all basically presentational markup, I'd make an
9average-sized img and put it in a noscript element, then
Gdocument.write in all this markup from an external .js file.  At least
3you'll have cleaner documents and the mess cached.

EOr you might experiment with an img stretched horizontally with CSS,
Cit might not look as tight, but would be much cleaner and possibly
more reliable:

G<img (left piece) /><img style="width:80%" ... /><img (right piece) />

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
U13:43:45.045 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [200]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:36:12 +0100
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
6In-Reply-To: <156730414296.20030428192041@mrclay.org>
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
@ <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
3Message-ID: <l03130317bad36b51335b@[192.168.0.36]>

2>ikc> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
>ikc> http://riotgrrrl.com/
>
,>Fun stuff.  http://mrclay.org/secret/riot/

LWow, looks like everyone's stepped up to the bat on this one - mine's not a
Imillion miles from Steve's though I think mine is just that bit sleeker.
JHowever, what with the embarrassment of riches now on display, I can't be
Abothered to finish it but I think the proof of concept is there.

6<http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/cssjunk/Riotgirl.mhtml>

LOf course, I'd junk the images as text and just justify the text but that's
just me...



U13:43:45.046 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [201]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:33:52 EDT
+Subject: [css-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <1ea.79417d2.2bdf2270@aol.com>

@In a message dated 4/28/2003 1:36:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ironmike@inav.net writes:


I> <.bold> Is this bold in your reader? <.h2>It should be in regular text

OI think it's fine, but I don't think it will be picked up by the rest of this 
List.

MI am interested in the list you refer to. If you could send some info on it 
Mto me, I'd appreciate being able to check it out. Thanks for the suggestion.


Curt
8From holnkids at netscape.net  Tue Apr 29 03:47:36 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:47:36 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
6Message-ID: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>

1Webapprentice <webapprentice@onemain.com> wrote:

,>http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html
>
I>The middle white area, where there is a link to "See the style sheet," 
L>is not stretched all the way. �I'd like to stretch the white area so it 
@>almost reaches the right white area but not colliding with it.
>
D>I've tried "width: auto" and "width: 100%," but this doesn't work.

qHi Stephen - You have a couple of options here, and which you chose may depend on what else you put on the page.

�To use absolute positioning as currently written on the div#contentarea and get the browsers to expand a greater distance than the short amount of text you have in there now, specifiy a width for #contentarea. You might choose your min-width value for this. Depending on the browser size and/or screen resolution of your user, the gap will be wider or narrower (or non-existant) with this method. I suspect that this probably isn't what you want to have to deal with.

�Another option is to use relative positioning instead, and use right margining to set the distance away from the right border, much like you already have. This will allow the div#contentarea to expand the full width of the area available, as long as it is greater than the min-width you have set. You will also have to adjust the top position, and you shouldn't need the width property at all. 

#contentarea {
 � �other: styles;
( � �position: relative;/* change */
4 � �top: 46px; � � � �/* change also */
6 � �/*width: auto;*/ /* probably not necessary */

�The min-width property will keep the #contentarea from collapsing beyond the value you have set as the browser narrows, but the #rightnavarea will slide on top of the #contentarea as the browser is narrowed beyond the min-width (except in IE-win which doesn't recognize min-width). If you want that middle column fluid in all browsers, remove the min-width property.

HTH,

~holly




C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
<From webapprentice at onemain.com  Tue Apr 29 05:02:46 2003
3From: webapprentice at onemain.com (Webapprentice)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:02:46 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
7In-Reply-To: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>
6References: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>
+Message-ID: <3EADF966.6080700@onemain.com>


Hi Holly,
Thank you for the quick reply.

IYou are correct that absolute positioning + min-width was not the way I 
Hwanted go.  I  wanted the middle column to be fluid, much like the old 
/HTML table hack of setting a td width to 100%.

HYour second option of relative positioning intrigued me.  I have never 
Dquite gotten that to behave properly, so I've always used absolute 
9positioning.  I had a lot of problems trying to combine 
Hrelatively-positioned elements with absolutely-positioned elements.  I 
,probably don't understand page flow enough.

FI've employed your relatively-positioned idea, and it works.  I must 
Hhave been very close to solving my problem, since I only had to change 
3two properties for #contentarea, position and top.

+http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html

<I'm kind of amazed that relatively-positioned elements and 
.absolutely-positioned elements can cooperate.

5I have to examine relative positioning more closely.

Thank you Holly.

Sincerely,
Stephen
U13:43:45.047 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [202]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:01:46 +0100
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
8In-Reply-To: <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
,	<005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
,Message-ID: <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>

Jason Estes wrote:

4> In the original email he said they were set up as
> 
> p {declarations}
> 
> and wanted something like
> 
> #mysite p {declarations}

DI probably wasn't being specific enough - i'll explain the set-up:-

IThere are two templates involved - one CMS admin template which already 
Ehas a stylesheet attached (and needs to stay attached), and we have 
Eattached our own additional stylesheet and one public site template 
Fwhich has just our style sheet. Within the admin template you create 
J"inner templates" such as "news item" which are inserted into the public 
Gsite template, but the problem is when you try to preview these inner 
Jtemplates within the admin template, they also inherit the global styles 
from the admin style sheet.

GThe admin style sheet has rules defined for p, h1, h2 etc and so does 
Iour public style sheet, and although we can redefine each of these rule 
Fby rule, this means we would need to add loads of extra rules to our 
(public style sheet to catch everything.

JI was trying to find a way to stop the inheritance for everything within 
Ba particular div without having to overide the styles one by one.

Hope thats clearer!
U13:43:45.047 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [203]
=================
.From: andy at webprojects.co.uk (Andy Walker)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:48:42 +0100
4Subject: [css-d] IE6  absolute positioning problems
3Message-ID: <002f01c30e23$c2a8ea40$c501a8c0@holly>

$Looks fine in everything except IE6

&I was using an ie6 - specific hack...

G#leftsidebar {position: absolute; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 140px; =
-background-color: white; text-align: right;}
@/* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
0* html #leftsidebar { /*\*/ left:-150px; /* */}

EThis worked fine, but in IE 5.0, it positioned the sidebar off the =
left-hand edge of the page.

I have changed it to...

G#leftsidebar {position: absolute; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 140px; =
-background-color: white; text-align: right;}
@/* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
-* html #leftsidebar { /*\*/ left:0px; /* */}

K...for the purposes of testing in ie 5.0, but the menu's now incorrectly =
positioned in ie6

&http://www.webprojects.co.uk/csslist/

any ideas?
DFrom Andreas.Reuterberg at staff.spray.se  Tue Apr 29 09:55:40 2003
@From: Andreas.Reuterberg at staff.spray.se (Andreas Reuterberg)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:55:40 +0200
6Subject: [css-d] 2 columns centered but unkown width?
FMessage-ID: <8E9E6E8B6A579344999D9B303F0B3B2D306312@safir.i.spray.se>

FI have a slight problem. I know how to solve it but I would like an =
Ieasier alternative. I have two columns, one of them is 200px wide (for =
Bexample) and the other one is sometimes 200px and sometimes 0px =
I(shouldn't be shown). The problem is that these two columns need to be =
Hcentered on the page and to do that I need to put them in a <div> and =
Kset that width to the width of them both together. But I need to get rid =
Gof that set width (300px) because the content in the right column is =
Hthere sometimes and sometimes it's not (it contains a banner). I know =
6how to do this with tables but.. Well, tables suck :)

9Can anyone help me? This is a short example of the code:

$<body style=3D"text-align:center;">
0	<div style=3D"width:300px; border:1px solid;">
H		<div style=3D"float:left; width:200px; border:1px solid;">200px</div>
;		<div style=3D"float:left; border:1px solid;">100px</div>
	</div>
</body>


Andreas
;From knaepkens.luc at pandora.be  Tue Apr 29 11:51:27 2003
(From: knaepkens.luc at pandora.be (Luc)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:51:27 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] IE and the fixed position
3Message-ID: <1448902190.20030429125127@pandora.be>

 Good afternoon list,      

B I read up on http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/ to make the fixed
B position work in IE but i seem to have a serious brain damage: i
 can't get it to work.

 My testpage:

@ http://users.pandora.be/luc_test/Projecten/Test/Pages/Test.htm

 sheet:

7 http://users.pandora.be/luc_test/Stylesheets/test.css

C The top banner and left nav should be fixed (Opera does it) but i
D can't get it fixed in IE.  Could some of you kind souls explain me
A how to implement the devnull hack or provide me the code for my
0 project so i can try and figger it out myself?
 
-- 
Best regards,
 Luc
---------------------------------------------
APowered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build
E2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera.

A"Acting is just a way of making a living, the family is life." -
Denzel Washington (1954-____).
---------------------------------------------

U13:43:45.048 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [204]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:54:15 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B90@vec01.vaneerden.com>

>>Here're a couple more:
G>>http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
>>problematic on Mac)

~Caution to all: If you use this, remember that (800x600 Firebird) I can't do anything to make the bottom of the menu visible.

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
 
U13:43:45.048 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [205]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:11:39 -0400
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
-In-Reply-To: <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
L <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH> <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
4Message-ID: <56127789375.20030429071139@mrclay.org>

1Tuesday, April 29, 2003, 2:01:46 AM, Rick wrote:
CRH> when you try to preview these inner templates within the admin
GRH> template, they also inherit the global styles from the admin style
RH> sheet.

EOoooh, you're preview environment is basically corrupted by an admin
FCSS file that won't be there for the user, but you need /some/ of the
Fadmin rules to keep the CMS "chrome" nice during preview.  Here are a
Fcouple ideas for which you'll need a partial admin.css file with what
you don't want stripped out:

E1) Write a bookmarklet that disables link to admin.css and adds link
?to partialAdmin.css  You'd have to run this with every preview

F2) Temporarily replace admin.css with partialAdmin.css on the server.
FTry to tie the code to do this into the preview function of your CMS.

DIf partialAdmin.css can't be created, your dev team would just have
Eto live with the admin "chrome" being unstyled during preview.  Just
)/move/ or disable admin.css temporarily.

HTH,
Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
U13:43:45.048 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [206]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:24:48 +0100
FSubject: [css-d] Site check please... Global 3 Col Fluid CSS Template
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
L	<005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH> <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
)	<56127789375.20030429071139@mrclay.org>
2Message-ID: <00b501c30e4a$53696250$fd00a8c0@mike>

<I hope some kind folk can help with a site check... please!

IGiven recent discussions on this list, especially regarding em's v % and
Gbrowser compatibility/hacks, I decided to create global templates that
Laddress some regular issues. My aim is to create some sort of "Standard", a
Lgood starter for people to use which also explains how the page builds from
beginning to final design.

EThe first of these templates is for a 3 column, cross-browser, cross
Lplatform, standards compliant, table-less, fluid page. The first-draft home
page is at
Khttp://www.china-and-west.com/cssTemps/layout1_3col/three_col_home.htm and
its layout is at
Lhttp://www.china-and-west.com/cssTemps/layout1_3col/three_col_testbasic.htm
K. The layout test page is a bit messy but there so the code is seen at the
"place of relevance in the layout.

II would appreciate site checks on as many platforms as possible. To save
Jcluttering the list with replies I would appreciate a direct reply unless
:there are issues which may be of design relevance to all.

MOne intention is to fully comment both the CSS and page, so commentary is as
 important as design competence.

KI need the type of templates I am designing. At the same time I considered
Gthey should be available to all, thus saving re-invention and enabling
Hdesigners (especially those new to CSS) to grasp some issues constantly
Gdiscussed on the list. I am happy to act as a conduit (do the work) to
Kbenefit others. If, when finished, someone wants to put these templates on
Mtheir own CSS-help sites or in publications then okay, so long as this helps
towards good design standards.

KWhen this one's complete I intend to produce fully commented templates for
J2-column, photo album, and E-book pages. I'll add more if I'm not totally
exhausted after that!

Many thanks!

Mike A
Edinburgh, Scotland
4malaja@malaja.f9.co.uk (preferred for this subject)
mike@china-and-west.com
T. 00 44 31 664 6604
U13:43:45.050 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [207]
=================
5From: ehmer at pacific.net.au (David & Angela Ehmer)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:49:00 +1000
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3Message-ID: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>

JAppreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
Hdetail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
explained examples.

Thanks
David
U13:43:45.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [208]
=================
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:58:56 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
4Message-ID: <007301c30e4f$1b61def0$d201a8c0@jenspc>


Hi David,

Fmy favourite is "Eric Meyer on CSS" [http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/].
LIt is full of advanced CSS-Stuff which you only can understand, if you have
a little bit of CSS-practice.

DAnd I hope, there will be a 2nd Edition of his "normal" CSS-Book at

O'Reilly.

Greetings from Germany,

Jens
U13:43:45.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [209]
=================
#From: ksoh at colby.edu (Karen Oh)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:13:04 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
4In-Reply-To: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
6Message-ID: <a05111b09bad42a3626b7@[137.146.196.147]>

(I got Eric Meyer's "Eric Meyer on CSS."

CIt's decent if you are interested in learning CSS from the start. 
CEach chapter is an case study of a design and he shows you how to 
Ccreate that design using CSS with step by step instructions. Good 
2beginner tutorial book, but not a reference book.

GIf you want a reference type of book that gives crude examples (boxes 
Eand text mainly, nothing designed or whatnot), the O'Reilly book on 
.CSS is a good base. That's how I am learning.

$Plus, there's tons of stuff online.

HTH
Karen


K>Appreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
I>detail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
>explained examples.
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Tue Apr 29 14:31:36 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:31:36 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
7Message-ID: <001701c30e53$a8dfa790$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> Appreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
J> detail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
> explained examples.


MI too have "Eric Meyer on CSS" and I think it's a fantastic tool.  It starts
Ewith simple pages in tables and progresses through entire pages done
Lstrictly with CSS.  It delves into a few of the finer points of CSS which I
Mthink is great, plus there are online files you can download to "play along"
Hwith the book, which is infinitely more helpful than just reading text.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

U13:43:45.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [210]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:58:03 -0700
4Subject: [css-d] IE6  absolute positioning problems
CMessage-ID: <OFF0EE69DE.6470F02F-ON88256D17.004BAB72@capgroup.com>


@[n.b.: I've reformatted the styles for folks whose mail readers
automatically wrap text...]

Andy wrote:

(> I was using an ie6 - specific hack...

> #leftsidebar {
>   position: absolute;
>   left: 0px;
>   top: 0px;
>   width: 140px;
>   background-color: white;
>   text-align: right;
> }
B> /* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
> * html #leftsidebar {

>   /*\*/
>   left:-150px;

>   /* */
> }

JI've seen that hack identified for hiding properties in Mac IE 5, but not

IE 6. Try

* html #leftsidebar {
	   /*\*/
   lef\t:-150px;
	   /* */
}

FThis assumes that Mac IE 5 works fine with left: 0px. The escaped "t"
Dcauses all IE versions except for 6.0 to ignore the style -- see "A
DModified SBMH" on http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BoxModelHack

GIf Mac IE needs the same fix, remove the comments. See Edwardson Tan's
great page on comment hacks at
Ihttp://www.info.com.ph/~etan/w3pantheon/style/commentbugs.html for other
variations.

HTH,

MikeL
U13:43:45.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [211]
=================
9From: jazzsnot at optonline.net (jazzsnot@optonline.net)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:03:57 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
2Message-ID: <b4f13b2bfc.b2bfcb4f13@optonline.net>

�"Designing CSS Web Pages" is an amazing book, especially for design. It teaches you how to design pages properly and put CSS to use. It has made me think totally different after reading it. Highly recommended.

Roy
U13:43:45.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [212]
=================
)From: gsam at trini0.org (Gerard Samuel)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:06:45 -0400
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
*Message-ID: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>

%Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
-With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
<<p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
=<div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
?<span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.

6Im just looking for verification on this observation.
HIf Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
to gain a "special" effect.

IFor example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not to 
use tables for layout.
IThe only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by line 
fashion is by ->
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
<div></div>
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

E(Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
:control the space between options, style the option text,
Gand if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
the form inputs.

(Thanks for any insight you may provide.
U13:43:45.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [213]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:14:27 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] what is troubling IE6?
5Message-ID: <132787639953.20030429111427@mrclay.org>

FLea's layout made me think of the old Mad Fold-Ins, so I put together
=this in CSS: http://mrclay.org/junk/mad/ (narrow the window)

FI know IE doesn't have min/max widths, but I don't see where the rest
Dof this is failing.  The wider inside image seems to be missing (or
/rendering at width:0).  Any ideas to fix this?

(Everything is held by abs. positioning:

outer div:
?|--- img ---|--- inside span ---|--- img --- | (max-width set)
,   left:0;        left:95px;       right:0;
                  right:95px;
                  display:block;
inside span:
|---- img ----|
  width:100%;

Steve

'PS: Where I can get a funnier fold-in?
-- 
http://mrclay.org
U13:43:45.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [214]
=================
+From: dnelson at netbank.com (Dave Nelson)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:14:18 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OMessage-ID: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBB4@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>

1Bill Creswell [mailto:BillC@VanEerden.com] said:

J>> I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of
6.1
3>> was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x
>
I> Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4
6(which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent > string).\
>
> Bill

JI downloaded and installed Netscape 6 from the evolt archive and if it is
Ethe same install from the initial release I was wrong. It is clearly
identified as Netscape 6

@userAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; m18)
Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0

-My own stats from AWStats so far this month:
23 million hits total
91% IE
 4% NS

Netscape5   250854
Netscape6.0   1832 
U13:43:45.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [215]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:26:50 +0100
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
+In-Reply-To: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
;Message-ID: <FF8EE716-7A56-11D7-BCD5-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


E<span> and <div> are unstyled tags and contain no style properties, 
Cexcept that span is inline in it's display and div is block. This 
!creates the effect you describe.

B<p> on the other hand has more default properties. Commonly this 
@involves a margin or padding area equal in height to one line. 
IDifferent browsers define this standard style differently. IE PC places 
Gsome space above and below the text, Moz places it all below. You can 
&override this space with a rule like:

.p { margin:0; padding:0; margin-bottom:1em; }

FFor your example, I would recommend something along the lines of the 
following:

G<div class="f"> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /> 

bar</div>
H<div class="f" > <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /> 

bar</div>

And in your CSS:

.f { margin-bottom:1em; }

%Or whatever presentation you desire.

HTH,

Ben

H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

GOn Tuesday, Apr 29, 2003, at 16:06 Europe/London, Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
J> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
H> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not 
> to use tables for layout.
F> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by 
> line fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
>
G> (Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
<> control the space between options, style the option text,
I> and if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
> the form inputs.
>
*> Thanks for any insight you may provide.
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:45.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [216]
=================
+From: justin at get-put.com (justin braem)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:29:50 -0500
Subject: [css-d] align-bottom
?Message-ID: <6AAAFCBE-7A57-11D7-B8A8-000393C28C30@get-put.com>

?I'm new here, so my apologies if this has been covered before.

AIs there any way to align a div to the bottom of a page without 
8resorting to finding the window height with javascript?
U13:43:45.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [217]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:18:02 -0700
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
CMessage-ID: <OFFD126CEE.4F42D79A-ON88256D17.00570F2F@capgroup.com>


Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
I> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
J> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not to
> use tables for layout.
J> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by line
> fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

KWelcome to the world of CSS, Gerard! It sounds like you are also beginning
8to get into the world of structural (or semantic) HTML.

FBasically, each tag represents some type of information. <p> tags are
Ddesigned to represent paragraphs. Most browsers place space between
Kparagraphs to identify where it begins or ends. Some browsers put one full
Jline space between paragraphs, others place half a space. Either of these
$can be overridden with CSS, though.

J<div> and <span> tags are generic containers used to enclose content that
Ghas some common purpose. <div> tags are intended to represent discrete
Lblocks of information, while <span> tags are intended to represent specific
Linformation inside of a block. (More accurately, <div> tags are block-level
Gcontainers that typically create carriage returns, and <span> tags are
inline containers.)

JIn most circumstances, you would want to wrap information that belongs in
%its own block in <div> tags, so that

F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
<div></div>
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

becomes

8<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo"
/><span>bar</span></div>
8<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo"
/><span>bar</span></div>

KThis tells the browser that the label "bar" belongs with the checkbox as a
Jsingle unit. You can then apply CSS styles to the divs, to properly space
the blocks apart.

F<div> tags can also contain other block-level tags like <p> and other
F<div>s, but paragraphs can only contain non-block-level elements like
K<span>, <em>, etc. (If you consider <p> tags as representing paragraphs it
Jmakes some sense -- you might emphasize some text in a paragraph, but you
Ftypically wouldn't place a paragraph inside of another paragraph, for

example.)

IAnother enhancement you might consider is replacing the <span> tags with
J<label> tags. Inside forms, <label> tags permit you to add semantic value
Ito this text. You can associate labels with inputs, so that clicking the
Glabel highlights the input as well. As an example, you can rewrite the
above checkboxes as follows:

G<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" id="optionFoo" value="foo"
+/><label for="optionFoo">foo</label></div>
G<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" id="optionBar" value="bar"
+/><label for="optionBar">bar</label></div>

JAs long as the "for" attribute in the label matches the "id" attribute in
Jthe input, you can click the text and it will check/uncheck the checkbox.
HYou can style the label tag in the same way as you would've intended to
Kstyle the span tag. Also, the <label> tag more semantically represents the
purpose of this text.

EFor more information, check out the "Forms" section of the HTML 4.01
specification:

/http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html

JThis spec can also be useful (albeit a bit daunting at first) for finding
<out how W3C intended HTML to be put together in a document.

HTH,

MikeL
U13:43:45.052 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [218]
=================
,From: scotts at rci-nv.com (Scott Schrantz)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:20:50 -0700
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
=Message-ID: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EE3B@SERVER1>

> -----Original Message-----
/> From: Gerard Samuel [mailto:gsam@trini0.org]
> 
'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
> 
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
@> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to 
(> use these to gain a "special" effect.

JOne of the first things to learn when using CSS is not to choose elements
Jbased on what their default presentation is, but rather on what structure
Jthey give to the page. You then use CSS to give them the presentation you
want.

K<p> denotes a paragraph. Use it when you are marking up a single paragraph
Jof text. It is a block element, meaning that there is a line break before
Land after it. It doesn't "create 2 line breaks", it has margins that create
Mwhite space between it and other elements. That white space can be done away
with using CSS.

p {margin: 0px;}

J<div> is a container, used for grouping elements. You use it when several
Lparagraphs need to have the same style or be separated from the rest of the
Fpage somehow. It is also a block element, but its margins are zero by
	default.

K<span> is also a container, but it is an inline container. As you noticed,
Lit doesn't come with any line break or margins. You use it when you need to
Lisolate a few words or a passage in the middle of a paragraph and give them
a particular style.

KThe true way to use CSS is to start by using basic HTML properly, and then
Ladd the CSS to make it look the way you want. Don't choose HTML elemnts for
3their "special effects". Add the effects with CSS.

--
Scott Schrantz
www.computer-vet.com/weblog/
scotts@computer-vet.com
AFrom grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de  Tue Apr 29 17:27:50 2003
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:27:50 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OReferences: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBB4@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>
4Message-ID: <00b001c30e6c$4a62c670$d201a8c0@jenspc>

Hi,

Aaccording to Apple the new Safari-Browser may be your Netscape5.
GOn http://developer.apple.com/internet/safari_faq.html#2 you can read:

<cite>
(The entire Safari user-agent string is:
LMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/XX (KHTML, like
Gecko) Safari/YY

K...where XX is the version of Apple's web technology used by Safari and YY
*is the version of the Safari application.
JAnd remember, since the rendering engine used by Safari behaves most like
HNetscape, the Safari JavaScript engine will report navigator.appName as
,"Netscape". Other Navigator values include:

G      navigator.appCodeName = "Mozilla" navigator.appName = "Netscape"
A      navigator.appVersion = "5.0" navigator.platform = "MacPPC"
D      navigator.product = "Gecko" navigator.productSub = "20030107"
0      navigator.vendor = "Apple Computer, Inc."

</cite>

HTH,

Jens
U13:43:45.052 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [219]
=================
)From: gsam at trini0.org (Gerard Samuel)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:55:01 -0400
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
+In-Reply-To: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
*References: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
*Message-ID: <3EAEBC75.7010602@trini0.org>

IThanks to all those who replied.  It has become a little clearer for me.
HI felt that what I was trying to do was cheat the system, and I didn't 
want to develop bad
habits from the start.
HNow I think I understand why Eric Meyer requested to pull all <br> and 
&nbsp; tags out of
Fyour html document when converting to CSS in the book "Eric Meyer on 
)CSS" (excellent resource so far for me).
1So back to work for me, till my next question :)

Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
J> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
H> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not 
> to use tables for layout.
F> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by 
> line fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
>
G> (Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
<> control the space between options, style the option text,
I> and if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
> the form inputs.
>
*> Thanks for any insight you may provide.
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>
U13:43:45.052 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [220]
=================
.From: weston at canncentral.org (Weston Cann)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:37:27 -0600
KSubject: [css-d] Trying to hide styles from different browsers (IE Win, IE
	Mac, everything else)
CMessage-ID: <A0B8F58A-7A71-11D7-94CC-0050E4F9FA12@canncentral.org>

II've got a layout with some absolutely positioned elements that seem to 
Jdisplay a few pixels off from browser to browser. After some reflection, 
HI've decided to try and feed different sets of values to three general 
kinds of browsers:

(1) MS IE Win
(2) MS IE Mac
1(3) Any other child-selector recognizing browser

@The scheme I've been trying to use to accomplish this has been:

F(1) Feed the IE Win value straight out in the style sheet ( example: 
.#tlmenu { position: absolute; top: 118px; } )
G(2) Feed the IE Mac value using a child selector expression, which is 
Jtherefore hidden from IE Win (example: #centring>#tlmenu { top: 119px } )
J(3) Use the \ comment hack and another child selector expression to feed 
Ianother value to all other child-selector reading browsers (example: /* 
.hack \ */ #centring>#tlmenu { top: 120px; } )

JThe problem is: the Gecko-based browser I'm using (Chimera/Navigator .6) 
Hseems to be oblivious to everything I put in #3. Am I going about this 
Jin a fundamentally wrong way, or is there just a detail I'm missing? Are 
there other, better schemes?

&(If you want the full context, go to 
Ihttp://weston.canncentral.org/misc/XVoyager/about.html ... it's got the 
XHTML and style sheets)

Thanks,

	Weston

~ == ~
http://weston.canncentral.org/
FMaybe the reason the invisible hand is invisible is because it isn't 
there.
U13:43:45.052 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [221]
=================
1From: css.rules at ntlworld.com (Standards R'Us)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:53:08 +0100
"Subject: [css-d] IE 5 Margin Woes
�Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAr8lY0hVSt0GwCUriyH46gcKDAAAQAAAAUrRwFaryNk+fCMqWmDO7KAEAAAAA@ntlworld.com>

5Hi all - newbie to the list - hope you all are well,

GNow to the matters in hand, can anyone help/advise me on the following
point.

9Firstly the CSS validates and the XHTML does as strict. 

EBut....IE 5 seems to ignore the margin for the nav.a and nav.a:hover
7declaration set on my css in regards to the CSS below;

.nav{
*background-image:url('../img/navbg.jpg');
background-repeat:no-repeat;
border-left:1px solid #CCCCCC;
 border-right:1px solid #CCCCCC;
border-top:medium none;
margin:0px;
padding:0px;
width:780px
}
.nav a{
color:#000000;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;
font-size:12px;
font-weight:normal;
line-height:52px;
margin-left:14px;    /ignores
margin-right:14px;  /ignores
padding:0px;
text-decoration:none;
text-transform:capitalize;
}
.nav a:hover{
color:#FF0000;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;
font-size:12px;
line-height:52px;
margin-left:14px;    /ignores
margin-right:14px;  /ignores
text-decoration:none;
text-transform:capitalize;
}

Any suggestions?

TIA

Jeremy

U13:43:45.052 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [222]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:59:56 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
EReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
3Message-ID: <p05210607bad4798b4575@[152.3.174.98]>

,At 9:09 AM -0300 4/28/03, Joel Young wrote:
>===============
>Scenario 1:
B>Assume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}
>
@>This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
$>of the browser's default. Yes? No?

GThis is a non-flame-war aspect to this problem, so I'll answer.  Yes, 
Gyour reading is correct on this point and all the points that follow, 
Bwith one caveat: be clear that "browser's default" refers to the 
Dperson doing the browsing, not the piece of software.  As has been 
Bthoroughly discussed, the individual may have changed his or her 
Dsettings, so what they see may not be the same as what the browser 
@ships configured to display.  So long as you are aware of that 
<possibility, you have calculated resulting sizes correctly.

EYou have to decide for yourself if it is more important to cater to 
Fthe cognoscenti or the clueless.  Just be aware that whichever group 
Fyou pick, the other group will see something different when it comes 
Fto font size.  Also, it is pretty much universally acknowledged that 
)the clueless is by far the larger group.

<opinion type="strongly held">
=My own view is that it is better to be concerned more about 
Eaccessibility and less about aesthetics.  Text that is slightly too 
Bsmall is less easily accommodated than text that is slightly too 
Clarge.  In addition, my experience is that more users back out of 
Dsites with text they find too small than sites with text they find 
Ctoo large.  This is the primary - and contrary to popular belief, 
Dcarefully-considered - reason that browser makers have chosen font 
Bsize defaults rather on the large side.  Take care in overriding 
their judgment.

DIn any case, be extremely sure of your choice if making non-header 
Afont sizes greater than 150% or less than 75-80% of the default 
G*anywhere* on a site.  Sizes outside that range are virtually assured 
Fof irritating some of your users.  (That is, constructions like your 
@third example, which made the inner text 72% of the "browser's 
(default", should generally be avoided.)
</opinion>

-- 

-Adam Kuehn

_13:43:45.069 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [389462] bytes
�13:43:45.069 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Thu Apr 24 16:07:26 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker

7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 16:40:48 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:40:48 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] List with mixed styles
:In-Reply-To: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
9References: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
/Message-ID: <3EA80580.3070503@cookiecrook.com>


K> What you want to do is create a div for the sub-items and add styles for
7> that specific div to your CSS. (Hat tip: Eric Meyer)
> 
> So, for example:
> <div id="menu">
> ITEM ONE
> <div class="subitems">
> Sub-item 1
> Sub-item 2
	> </div>
	> </div>

;The nesting idea is correct, but keep it a list, not divs.

<ul class="menu">
   <li>Item 1

     <ul>
       <li>Sub-item 1</li>
       <li>Sub-item 2</li>
     </ul>
	   </li>
   <li>Item 2</li>
   <li>Item 3</li>
</ul>

"ul.menu { /* top menu styles */ }
*ul.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
(ul.menu li ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
0ul.menu li ul li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

1Or, you could save a few bytes on the selectors.

 .menu { /* top menu styles */ }
(.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
#.menu ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
+.menu li li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

Good luck,
James Craig


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/

5From BradyG at BIDWELL.com  Thu Apr 24 16:49:36 2003
-From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
;for one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not ]
V13:43:45.070 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
Y13:43:45.070 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [4610]
Y13:43:45.070 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [5847]
Z13:43:45.071 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11042]
Z13:43:45.071 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11694]
Z13:43:45.071 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14322]
Z13:43:45.071 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14813]
Z13:43:45.071 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [17185]
Z13:43:45.071 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [22619]
Z13:43:45.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [23777]
Z13:43:45.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [24935]
Z13:43:45.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [25600]
Z13:43:45.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [27077]
Z13:43:45.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [28048]
Z13:43:45.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [31103]
Z13:43:45.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [32322]
Z13:43:45.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33207]
Z13:43:45.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33881]
Z13:43:45.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [36426]
Z13:43:45.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [38906]
Z13:43:45.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [39611]
Z13:43:45.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40362]
Z13:43:45.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40854]
Z13:43:45.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [42307]
Z13:43:45.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [44381]
Z13:43:45.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [45120]
Z13:43:45.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [46626]
Z13:43:45.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [47299]
Z13:43:45.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [48023]
Z13:43:45.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [49141]
Z13:43:45.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [50265]
Z13:43:45.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [53644]
Z13:43:45.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [54261]
Z13:43:45.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [55133]
Z13:43:45.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [56603]
Z13:43:45.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [57466]
Z13:43:45.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [58820]
Z13:43:45.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [60995]
Z13:43:45.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [62757]
Z13:43:45.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [63497]
Z13:43:45.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [65951]
Z13:43:45.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [66697]
Z13:43:45.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [67645]
Z13:43:45.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [68938]
Z13:43:45.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [70058]
Z13:43:45.086 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [71395]
Z13:43:45.086 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [73633]
Z13:43:45.086 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [76326]
Z13:43:45.086 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [77209]
Z13:43:45.086 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [78431]
Z13:43:45.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [82607]
Z13:43:45.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [83312]
Z13:43:45.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [85154]
Z13:43:45.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [86345]
Z13:43:45.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [88347]
Z13:43:45.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [89056]
Z13:43:45.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [91025]
Z13:43:45.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [92518]
Z13:43:45.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [94760]
Z13:43:45.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [95686]
Z13:43:45.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [97016]
Z13:43:45.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [98916]
[13:43:45.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [100703]
[13:43:45.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [101981]
[13:43:45.140 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [104651]
[13:43:45.140 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [105522]
[13:43:45.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [108140]
[13:43:45.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [109030]
[13:43:45.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [110577]
[13:43:45.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [111713]
[13:43:45.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [112218]
[13:43:45.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [115007]
[13:43:45.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [117166]
[13:43:45.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [120070]
[13:43:45.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [121361]
[13:43:45.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [122997]
[13:43:45.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [123856]
[13:43:45.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [125795]
[13:43:45.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [128549]
[13:43:45.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129484]
[13:43:45.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129922]
[13:43:45.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [131612]
[13:43:45.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [132516]
[13:43:45.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [133642]
[13:43:45.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [134621]
[13:43:45.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [137652]
[13:43:45.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [138236]
[13:43:45.144 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [142465]
[13:43:45.144 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [143647]
[13:43:45.144 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [144733]
[13:43:45.144 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [145232]
[13:43:45.144 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [149409]
[13:43:45.145 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [151060]
[13:43:45.145 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153155]
[13:43:45.145 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153674]
[13:43:45.145 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [154221]
[13:43:45.145 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [155386]
[13:43:45.145 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [156187]
[13:43:45.145 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [158083]
[13:43:45.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [160013]
[13:43:45.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [162156]
[13:43:45.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [163096]
[13:43:45.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [165147]
[13:43:45.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [166475]
[13:43:45.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [167195]
[13:43:45.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [168631]
[13:43:45.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [170067]
[13:43:45.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [171200]
[13:43:45.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [172161]
[13:43:45.147 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [173044]
[13:43:45.147 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [175327]
[13:43:45.147 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [176650]
[13:43:45.147 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [182034]
[13:43:45.151 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [184318]
[13:43:45.151 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [185360]
[13:43:45.152 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [188868]
[13:43:45.152 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [189349]
[13:43:45.152 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [191813]
[13:43:45.152 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [192592]
[13:43:45.152 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [196228]
[13:43:45.152 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [201718]
[13:43:45.153 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [202888]
[13:43:45.153 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [205824]
[13:43:45.153 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [206835]
[13:43:45.153 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [209112]
[13:43:45.154 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [213575]
[13:43:45.154 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [214632]
[13:43:45.154 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [217173]
[13:43:45.154 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [218712]
[13:43:45.155 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [222713]
[13:43:45.155 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [225406]
[13:43:45.156 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [238231]
[13:43:45.156 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [240183]
[13:43:45.156 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [241335]
[13:43:45.156 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [242213]
[13:43:45.156 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [243658]
[13:43:45.157 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [247376]
[13:43:45.157 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [250226]
[13:43:45.157 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [251222]
[13:43:45.157 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [252782]
[13:43:45.157 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [253582]
[13:43:45.157 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [255113]
[13:43:45.157 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [257141]
[13:43:45.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [258729]
[13:43:45.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [260173]
[13:43:45.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [263021]
[13:43:45.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [266112]
[13:43:45.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [267943]
[13:43:45.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [268773]
[13:43:45.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [269368]
[13:43:45.159 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [270287]
[13:43:45.159 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [271965]
[13:43:45.159 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [272918]
[13:43:45.159 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [274357]
[13:43:45.159 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [275702]
[13:43:45.159 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [276626]
[13:43:45.159 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [278211]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [279791]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [280557]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281248]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281892]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [284485]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [285508]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [287192]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [289194]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290229]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290940]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [291497]
[13:43:45.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292008]
[13:43:45.161 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292955]
[13:43:45.161 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [295681]
[13:43:45.161 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [296401]
[13:43:45.161 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [297412]
[13:43:45.161 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [299878]
[13:43:45.161 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [302741]
[13:43:45.161 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [304075]
[13:43:45.161 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [305062]
[13:43:45.162 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [306733]
[13:43:45.162 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [307416]
[13:43:45.162 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [310045]
[13:43:45.162 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [311566]
[13:43:45.162 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [312707]
[13:43:45.162 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [314900]
[13:43:45.162 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [316029]
[13:43:45.163 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [318083]
[13:43:45.163 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [321443]
[13:43:45.163 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [323696]
[13:43:45.163 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [324549]
[13:43:45.163 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [325233]
[13:43:45.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [326418]
[13:43:45.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [328215]
[13:43:45.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [329589]
[13:43:45.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [331924]
[13:43:45.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [333708]
[13:43:45.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [334941]
[13:43:45.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [335517]
[13:43:45.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [337115]
[13:43:45.165 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [339999]
[13:43:45.165 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [344275]
[13:43:45.165 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [345199]
[13:43:45.165 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [348883]
[13:43:45.165 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [349908]
[13:43:45.166 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [354329]
[13:43:45.166 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [355908]
[13:43:45.166 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359330]
[13:43:45.166 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359935]
[13:43:45.166 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [361358]
[13:43:45.166 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [363720]
[13:43:45.167 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364142]
[13:43:45.167 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364749]
[13:43:45.167 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [366632]
[13:43:45.167 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [367896]
[13:43:45.168 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [368358]
[13:43:45.168 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [369601]
[13:43:45.168 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [370475]
[13:43:45.168 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [371432]
[13:43:45.168 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374211]
[13:43:45.168 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374625]
[13:43:45.169 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [378695]
[13:43:45.169 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [381979]
[13:43:45.169 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [384057]
[13:43:45.169 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [385721]
[13:43:45.169 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [387022]
S13:43:45.170 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker
S13:43:45.170 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [1]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:40:48 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] List with mixed styles
:In-Reply-To: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
9References: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
/Message-ID: <3EA80580.3070503@cookiecrook.com>


K> What you want to do is create a div for the sub-items and add styles for
7> that specific div to your CSS. (Hat tip: Eric Meyer)
> 
> So, for example:
> <div id="menu">
> ITEM ONE
> <div class="subitems">
> Sub-item 1
> Sub-item 2
	> </div>
	> </div>

;The nesting idea is correct, but keep it a list, not divs.

<ul class="menu">
   <li>Item 1

     <ul>
       <li>Sub-item 1</li>
       <li>Sub-item 2</li>
     </ul>
	   </li>
   <li>Item 2</li>
   <li>Item 3</li>
</ul>

"ul.menu { /* top menu styles */ }
*ul.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
(ul.menu li ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
0ul.menu li ul li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

1Or, you could save a few bytes on the selectors.

 .menu { /* top menu styles */ }
(.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
#.menu ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
+.menu li li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

Good luck,
James Craig


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
S13:43:45.171 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [2]
=================
-From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
Ifor one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not recommended for
Iothers (@page is useless for continuous media, pixels can't be used with
tty).

>@media was designed specifically for the purpose of declaring
Emedia-specific rules in a style sheet targetting more than one media
F(e.g., "all"). Why wouldn't you use it for that purpose? (OK, there's
poor support, but...)

=> Since your "ideal" set includes "handheld", and almost all
F> new devices fall into this category, you're not really avoiding the
> problem! :-)=20

DI only recommended using handheld if the /only/ styles declared are
Hthings like font and color. Handhelds have abysmal positioning support,
Hworse than WebTV (see below). If, however, you wanted to declare screen
6and handheld together, @media is the perfect tool.=20

=> Web of real CSS content to deal with. New devices are more
>> likely to be better at CSS since they have to work with new
=> Web content. And if the UA is compliant, then pages should

 Yes, but they aren't compliant:
("CSS2 Support in PDA/Handheld Browsers"
H<http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/handheldbrowsercsssupport.html>

@Thanks for making me think through all these media issues, Ian.

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
:From bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Apr 24 17:10:06 2003
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:10:06 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] smaller checkboxes
7References: <1824277687.20030423143018@balance.com.au>
P	<3EA71397.3080403@cookiecrook.com> <00be01c309ff$25f59db0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304231944540.19929-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
8Message-ID: <000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

----- Original Message -----
#From: "Ian Hickson" <ian@hixie.ch>
J<<Unfortunately that won't work in any standard-compliant UA, because the
KWingdings font doesn't have a UNICODE encoding, and so compliant UAs won't
Fuse it to render characters (since the font claims to not support any
EUNICODE characters, and the HTML and CSS specs say that the document
character set is UNICODE).

KTo make it work in any compliant UA, use the UNICODE checkmark characters,
Ge.g. U+2610 and U+2611 (entities &#x2610; and &#x2611;, which, if your
:e-mail client is working right, look like ☐ and ☑).>>
&- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

KWell, happily in respect to font substitution, Mozilla, Netscape 6.1+, and
IE
&are not standards-compliant browsers.

CI have tried UNICODE solutions and they always end up causing more
Cproblems in more situations than the easier and more common method
Gof font substitution. At least in the Windows world, I see nothing but
.problems in implementing Unicode equivalents.

BDo you have a link to some example where checkboxes (or something
;similar) have been done using standards for glyph display?

Brett




S13:43:45.175 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [3]
=================
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:24:25 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
8Message-ID: <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

=| I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
2| http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html
L| Explorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes
a
D| few problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.


HI feel like I'm getting more for my browser money when I click on those

big ones!

Brett
S13:43:45.175 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [4]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:25:06 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
.In-Reply-To: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
" <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>
3Message-ID: <p05210605bacdba15ac2a@[152.3.174.98]>

N>On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
>#
K># In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
M># relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
K># the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
L># changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
K># flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
;># page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.
>
F>I was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my
I>layout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So,
J>unless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do,
#>I'll have to abandon these plans.

FI haven't checked out this solution, so take it with a grain of salt:

GAbsolute positioning shouldn't affect the fluidity of your layout, if 
Cyou do it correctly.  If you absolutely position something, it is 
Dpositioned with respect to it's containing block.  That containing 
Cblock is defined to be the nearest ancestor with a position other 
Gthan "static".  Since "static" is also the default position for every 
Aelement, you would therefore need to position the element which 
Econtains the hidden/invisible content in question - in other words, 
Gposition the list item.  Try "relative" on the li, then "absolute" on 
=the paragraph and see if that does what you are looking for.

AIncidentally, to be a bit more semantically correct, you should 
Bactually make the invisible/hidden element a div , rather than a 
Gparagraph (positioned as explained).  Each verse could then be marked 
<up as a paragraph, with no additional positioning required.

-- 

-Adam Kuehn
3From steve at mrclay.org  Thu Apr 24 17:44:40 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:44:40 -0400
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
>In-Reply-To: <3CD82BA2-764B-11D7-9DBB-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
=References: <3CD82BA2-764B-11D7-9DBB-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
5Message-ID: <198361053093.20030424124440@mrclay.org>

:Thursday, April 24, 2003, 7:52:34 AM, Arlen Walker wrote:
AW> Margins also do *not* add;

2Vertically, but they don't collapse horizontally.

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
S13:43:45.175 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [5]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:43:50 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
7Message-ID: <004801c30a80$af81d900$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Saila, Craig :
>
B> Thanks for making me think through all these media issues, Ian.

DAnd it's been a good conversation to follow along with, it's got me

thinking.
--Josh

S13:43:45.175 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [6]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
>
> Steve Thomas wrote:
,>> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>>
?>>     <link rel="stylesheet" href="site.css" type="text/css">
>
K> The only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
I> so /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
	> stuff.

GThat's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has delegated
Gauthority over the "media" attribute to the CSS working group, who has
(decided to change the default to "all".

JUnfortunately I can't find a public reference to this decision. I'll look
	into it.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
3From steve at mrclay.org  Thu Apr 24 18:40:08 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:40:08 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
4Message-ID: <56364380796.20030424134008@mrclay.org>

1Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
CS> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
5S> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".

?This is a good way to stop using another purely presentational
Gelement.  You might also want to specify font-size:0; height:0 just to
<be sure the space within doesn't give you a 1em tall block.

DThere is a small catch in this display:block method, though: Inline
Gelements, such as A, are not supposed to contain blocks (as we've told
Espan to render), so, even though it's valid HTML/CSS, there could be
 unexpected behavior/rendering. 

Another technique would be:

span {
>   white-space:pre-line; /* gets rid of the space (CSS2.1) */
}
span:after {
4   content:"\A";         /* generated line-break */
}

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
S13:43:45.175 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [7]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] smaller checkboxes
9In-Reply-To: <000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
7References: <1824277687.20030423143018@balance.com.au>
$	<3EA71397.3080403@cookiecrook.com>
-	<00be01c309ff$25f59db0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304231944540.19929-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
-	<000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241008150.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Brett Merkey wrote:
>
I> Well, happily in respect to font substitution, Mozilla, Netscape 6.1+,
/> and IE are not standards-compliant browsers.

@I believe recent Mozilla builds have been fixed in this regard.


E> I have tried UNICODE solutions and they always end up causing more
H> problems in more situations than the easier and more common method of
F> font substitution. At least in the Windows world, I see nothing but
0> problems in implementing Unicode equivalents.

JUnfortunately, we're not in a Windows world. Millions of people use other
operating systems.


D> Do you have a link to some example where checkboxes (or something
=> similar) have been done using standards for glyph display?

This works in Mozilla:

@   http://www.damowmow.com/playground/demos/checkboxes/001.html

KUnfortunately it doesn't work in WinIE6, due to its rather abysmal UNICODE
Jsupport. It is sad that the most popular UA is so bad at basic standards.
DIt was the same back in the days of Netscape 4... Maybe having poor
7support for the specs is the key to being popular? ;-)

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 18:46:03 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:46:03 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
?> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has
<> delegated authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS
A> working group, who has decided to change the default to "all".

-Well, that would make *a lot* more sense!=20

IThere does seems to be an inconsistency, given @import defaults to "all"
and this reference:
<<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/styles.html#h-14.4.1>
Bimplies it should default to "all" and apparently the DTD doesn't
;specify any default media-type, so "all" would make sense.

9Ain't it great when even the "standards" are consistent!

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
/From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Apr 24 18:49:31 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:49:31 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
9In-Reply-To: <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
- <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>


=> I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
I> http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html Explorer renders these
I> as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a few problems with
2> the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

KActually the reason Mozilla stops styling the checkboxes in strict mode is
Fthat the checkboxes have classes that do not match the classes in the
Kstylesheet. In quirks mode, Mozilla is ignoring the error and treating the
Iclasses as case insensitive, but in strict mode it does the right thing.

AIf you change the classes to lowercase throughout it works fine.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
<From contact at lukeredpath.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 19:08:38 2003
2From: contact at lukeredpath.co.uk (Luke Redpath)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:08:38 +0100
.Subject: [css-d] Cross-Browser Template Check
EMessage-ID: <ENEMIKFCPDMDJCEEJFPPOEKHCGAA.contact@lukeredpath.co.uk>

Hi,

<I'm working on a template for a redesign of a personal site
(www.sonicdeath.co.uk).

The template is here:

8http://testpad.sonicdeath.co.uk/sonicdeath_template.htm

/And a jpg of what it should look like is here:

8http://testpad.sonicdeath.co.uk/sonicdeath_template.jpg

ISo far it works in NS7, IE6, Opera 7, Moz 1.1/1.3 on Windows. It doesn't
Mwork in Opera 5 but that is fine with me because I would expect the majority
Dof Opera users (and we are talking about the majority of an extreme
Iminority) to have the latest version. I've not implemented any box model
Khacks yet either so I'm not bothered about what it looks like in IE 5.x at
this point in time.

HWhat I would like to know is what it looks like in any other browsers I
Ghaven't mentioned, particularly IE 5.2, Camino and Mozilla on the Mac.

MI need to tidy the code up a bit, but that said, it still validates as XHTML
'1.0 strict and the CSS also validates.

Cheers,

Luke Redpath
--
www.sonicdeath.co.uk/weblog
C"Celebrity Squares" - giving the web a CSS makeover - coming soon!

S13:43:45.175 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [8]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:10:50 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3References: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
%Message-ID: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>

>
>
E> Here's my tip: create a <span> with a single space in it, like so:
B> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
4> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".
K> Now, without a stylesheet, you'll get the full link on one line - with a
I> space in the middle - but, in the styled version, the span will go on 
> to a
H> new line, but not actually show anything as there's only white-space 
	> in it,
> so it collapses.
-> There you have it - a CSS-only line break.
>
Yow!
-I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.

AWhy is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't

<p>
123 Trogdor St.<br />
Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
</p>

better than
p.address {margin: 0;}
'<p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
2<p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

besos
Miriam

-- 
http://www.surebluestudios.com

S13:43:45.175 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [9]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:28:20 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3References: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
'Message-ID: <3EA82CC4.7030406@f2o.org>

>
E> Here's my tip: create a <span> with a single space in it, like so:
B> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
4> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".
K> Now, without a stylesheet, you'll get the full link on one line - with a
I> space in the middle - but, in the styled version, the span will go on 
> to a
H> new line, but not actually show anything as there's only white-space 
	> in it,
?> so it collapses. There you have it - a CSS-only line break. 


Yow!
-I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.

AWhy is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't

<p>
123 Trogdor St.<br />
Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
</p>

better than
p.address {margin: 0;}
'<p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
2<p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

besos
Miriam

-- 
http://www.surebluestudios.com


T13:43:45.175 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [10]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:28:53 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
&In-Reply-To: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
'Message-ID: <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>

> <p>
> 123 Trogdor St.<br />
> Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
> </p>

.I suppose one could do similar with a list...
<ul>
<li>123 Trogdor St.</li>
<li>Strongbadia, Wherever</li>
</ul>

?but that's not really a list, is it, and is therefore just as 
&semantically meaningless as a <br />?
Hrrm.

besos
Miriam


--
http://www.surebluestudios.com
T13:43:45.175 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [11]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:30:47 -0400
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
7Message-ID: <005301c30a8f$a31f3b80$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

GIf this is something that everyone knows about, forgive me for somehow
missing it somewhere!

CFor those redirecting non-compliant browsers via sniff or the cute
G"ahem" class that's revealed when the stylesheet isn't loaded... Where
Bare you going to send your non-compliant users now?  If anywhere?

C>From the page I always point to: http://webstandards.org/upgrade/

H"Note to site builders: The WaSP Browser Upgrade Campaign has come to a
Dclose. As such we ask that you discontinue your use of this upgrade
Hmessage and visit the Beyond the Browser Upgrade Campaign page to learn
about what to do instead."

:(

@This isn't old news is it? (I'll be really red-faced if it is).

ISo is there still a need to re-direct your non-compliant visitors, or do
Fyou agree with the sentiments about it just being an easy out for not
=testing our pages for some browsers like NN4 as expressed at
,http://webstandards.org/act/campaign/buc/ ?

FI personally, still see the need to redirect non-compliant users to a
Hpage that tells them more information, like where to obtain an upgrade,
Fwhy they were redirected (or why they were provided the link) and the
like.  Thoughts?

--Josh

T13:43:45.175 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [12]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:33:01 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA82DDD.2080805@cookiecrook.com>


DI admit I haven't been paying as close attention to this thread as 
Ipossible, but what do you guys think of adding @media rules? Would this 
work?

6<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="all" />

DThen the stylesheet could include general styles still hidden from 
%Netscape 4, immediately followed by:

@media screen {
   @import "screen.css";
}
@media print {
   @import "print.css";
}

@Perhaps there are some bugs associated with this approach, too?

Just curious.
James

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [13]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:43:05 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241135500.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>


)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
> Ian Hickson wrote:
@>> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has
=>> delegated authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS
B>> working group, who has decided to change the default to "all".
>
,> Well, that would make *a lot* more sense!

GHeh. I've reminded the relevant person to add this to the HTML errata.


?> Ain't it great when even the "standards" are [in]consistent!

KThe people who write the browsers are the same as the people who write the
7specs... it's to be expected that both are flawed. ;-)

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
/From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Apr 24 20:02:24 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
&In-Reply-To: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Miriam Frost wrote:
>
C> Why is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't
>
> <p>
> 123 Trogdor St.<br />
> Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
> </p>
>
> better than
> p.address {margin: 0;}
)> <p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
4> <p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

Yes, it is. Even better is:

   <address>
   123 Trogdor St.<br>
   Strongbadia, Wherever<br>
   </address>

<<br> is only wrong when used to separate paragraphs, as in:

   Foo Bar.<br>
   <br>
   Baz.<br>
   <br>

...which would be better as:

   <p> Foo Bar. </p>
   <p> Baz. </p>

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
1From miriam at f2o.org  Thu Apr 24 20:04:35 2003
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:04:35 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EA83543.9040605@f2o.org>

>
>
>   <address>
>   123 Trogdor St.<br>
>   Strongbadia, Wherever<br>
>   </address>
>
D'oh!
JI have cause to use <address> so infrequently that it completely slipped 
	my mind.
%Off to wash the egg from my face....

besos
Miriam
T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [14]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:12:29 -0500
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
-	<002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>


=>>I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
I>>http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html Explorer renders these
I>>as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a few problems with
2>>the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.
> 
B>If you change the classes to lowercase throughout it works fine.

GI can get the input's clickable area to enlarge in Mozilla and Opera, 
Abut not the actual visable representation like in IE. Is this a 
Fpreference setting or perhaps related to the XP native form elements?

Here's a screen shot.
@http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif

GOpera acts about the same except vertically aligned middle instead of 
bottom.

James


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [15]
=================
1From: lists at thinkbigideas.com (Anthony Baker)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 02:24:29 -0700
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
8In-Reply-To: <005301c30a8f$a31f3b80$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
4Message-ID: <001601c30a43$4e8a29f0$210110ac@BigGuy>



H| I personally, still see the need to redirect non-compliant users to a
?| page that tells them more information, like where to obtain 
| an upgrade,
H| why they were redirected (or why they were provided the link) and the
| like.  Thoughts?
| 
	| --Josh



DMake one of your own. Copy the content, create an upgrade page with
Ayour design, paste the content in. I did something similar on an
earlier site myself. 

DThat, or, someone could create another version of the page and have
Ait hosted somewhere, allowing folks to point to it. A grassroots
upgrade effort, as it were.

	/Anthony
T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [16]
=================
,From: samuel at latchman.org (Sam Latchman)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:30:20 +0200
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
(In-Reply-To: <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
	<3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>
,Message-ID: <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>

9If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is

address {margin: 0;}
#<address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
)<address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>

3with possibly some class="street", class="city"...


::Sam

-- 
Samuel Latchman
-----------------
web designer [fr]
http://www.latchman.org/sam/


T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [17]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
0In-Reply-To: <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
- <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
$ <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, James Craig wrote:
>
H> I can get the input's clickable area to enlarge in Mozilla and Opera,
B> but not the actual visable representation like in IE. Is this a
H> preference setting or perhaps related to the XP native form elements?
>
> Here's a screen shot.
B> http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif

KAssuming that shot is of Mozilla, then I would guess that the XP theme you
;use doesn't support scaling. What does it look like in IE?

FNote that at the moment, styling form controls is not covered by CSS.
GWhile we may be adding more control over this in future levels, at the
9moment, UA implementors can basically do what they like.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 20:57:40 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:57:40 -0500
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
-	<002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
$	<3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
+Message-ID: <3EA841B4.609@cookiecrook.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
*> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, James Craig wrote:
>
>>Here's a screen shot.
B>>http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif
> 
L>Assuming that shot is of Mozilla, then I would guess that the XP theme you
<>use doesn't support scaling. What does it look like in IE?

GYes, that's Mozilla 1.3 on Win XP. IE6 on XP gets the size right, but 
Duses the default browser form element appearance (black and white) 
Ginstead of the XP styled form controls. This is the default silver XP 
theme, not any add-on.

James

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [18]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:08:02 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD6@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

James Craig wrote:
E> I admit I haven't been paying as close attention to this thread as
E> possible, but what do you guys think of adding @media rules? Would
> this work?

FThat's exactly the way to go, and is what @media is designed for. The
Iproblem is, AFAIK, @media isn't well supported in some browser that have
Igood CSS support like IE5/Mac and some versions of KHTML-based browsers.

>> <link rel=3D"stylesheet" type=3D"text/css" media=3D"all" />
>=20
E> Then the stylesheet could include general styles still hidden from
'> Netscape 4, immediately followed by:
>=20
> @media screen {
>    @import "screen.css";
> }
> @media print {
>    @import "print.css";
> }
>=20
B> Perhaps there are some bugs associated with this approach, too?

DThat's kinda overkill if you're using it to block NN4, but it's the
Eideal way to work with media=3D"all" in that you're using @media.=20

FThe reason I say it's overkill is because NN4 doesn't get @import, so
*this, for example, would be just as good:

) <style type=3D"text/css" media=3D"all">
-  /* all-media general styles not for NN4 */

 </style>
 <style type=3D"text/css">
  @import "screen.css" screen;
  @import "print.css" print;

 </style>

IOr within that media=3D"all" CSS file (although I'm not sure if @media =
has
to come first, like @import):

-  /* all-media general styles not for NN4 */
 @media screen {
   /*rules for screen*/
 }
 @media print {
   /*rules for print*/
 }

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Thu Apr 24 21:24:45 2003
%From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:24:45 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <1051210553.6798@tweek.sebduggan.com>
2Message-ID: <1051215888.5130@tweek.sebduggan.com>


&> From: Miriam Frost <miriam@f2o.org>

> Yow!
/> I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.
> 
:> Why is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks

LThere's absolutely nothing wrong with line breaks. It's just that sometimes
Myou want your styled layout to break in a specific place, but have it appear
 as one line when it's unstyled.

T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [19]
=================
.From: info at n2dreamweaver.com (Donna Casey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:44:34 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3References: <1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com>
4Message-ID: <00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>

Itoo bad that the link to the "elm" program that actually works with this
Fstyle of non-munging list replies is an orphaned link...it seems that
Joutlook express doesn't offer a choice between individual and group, just
individual and all.

Donna

?> > http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssDiscussListHeaders
>
>
J> OK, I feel suitably chastened :)  It's just not the reply behaviour I'm
used
> to. I'm sure I'll adjust...
T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [20]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:56:57 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
CMessage-ID: <OFE5E77EAE.7CFFF59F-ON88256D12.0072C185@capgroup.com>


;> If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is

> address {margin: 0;}
%> <address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
+> <address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>

5> with possibly some class="street", class="city"...

HWe're getting off-topic here, but before we leave I'd like to point out
Jthat the above is not actually proper -- it denotes that each line of the
Laddress is an address itself, when in fact each element is only one part of
the address.

Thanks,

MikeL
T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [21]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:08:41 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] WaSP Upgrade Campaign.
7Message-ID: <010501c30aa5$af80eed0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

LI have put together a simple version of the WaSP Upgrade Campaign page that
Mcan be used in a similar manner as the previous one.  I used most of the old
&copy, so there should be no suprises.

%http://www.bewb.org/webstandards.asp


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [22]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:05:41 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
4Message-ID: <60376713968.20030424170541@mrclay.org>

9Thursday, April 24, 2003, 3:02:24 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:
8IH> <br> is only wrong when used to separate paragraphs

FThere are other instances where a line-break is visually preferred in
Fa certain place (rather than left to natural flow).  IMO, these cases
*warrant an alternate line-break solution.

ESay you have a heading that's just a tad too long for a single line:

$|  Welcome to My Page About Race  |
$|  Cars                           |

and you might want:

$|       Welcome to My Page        |
$|        About Race Cars          |

FA <br /> just really doesn't make sense structurally and playing with
Gmargins/padding until it wraps where you want is less-than-ideal (what
7if the user chooses a slightly bigger/different font).

8You could use non-breaking spaces to do something like:

E<h1>Welcome&nbsp;to&nbsp;My&nbsp;Page About&nbsp;Race&nbsp;Cars</h1>

2But this seems more elegant and content-friendly:

D<h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [23]
=================
9From: stephen at crescentcreative.com (Stephen Hamilton)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:01:18 -0700
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
4In-Reply-To: <009e01c30a1c$25ff5b80$650aa8c0@video>
3Message-ID: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>

GI don't know if it's correct form to reply to your own messages, but I
Ksolved most of my nested list / rollover issues with one remaining niggle.

IMy original problem was caused by not nesting the list elements properly
viz:

	<ul>
		<li>element1</li>
		<ul>
			<li>subelement1</li>
		</ul>
		<li>element2</li>
	</ul>

That piece is now corrected.

HHowever I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
8attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!

%Any pointers are always appreciated.

Stephen

-----Original Message-----
=From: Stephen Hamilton [mailto:stephen@crescentcreative.com]
(Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 9:44 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc


GI have built nested left navigation menus with CSS rollovers on a site
J(www.saveburlingameschools.com) and find significant differences from IE6
<versus Opera 7.1 , Netscape 7.0 , and Mozilla 1.3 (all W2K)

>1) IE does not pick up the color attribute for the text link:

.navbar li a {
 <snip>
  color: #880026;
 }

92) and IE does not pick up the submenu background image:

7http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/index.php?Topic=5

.subnavbar li a  {
 <snip>
1  background-image: url('pictures/submenu.gif');
   background-repeat: no-repeat;
  text-decoration: none;

LAll the other mentioned browsers seem to work ok (though there is a strange
;framing ssue with Mozilla that I haven't quite resolved!).

The style sheets are at :
2http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/measurea.css
8http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/measurealayout.css


.Any thoughts / pointers would be appreciated.

Many thanks

Stephen

J"There are many roads up the mountain, but they all lead to the top   ...
<The road is steep whichever way you go, so enjoy the view!"



T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [24]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:05:33 -0400
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
5In-Reply-To: <001601c30a43$4e8a29f0$210110ac@BigGuy>
7Message-ID: <006701c30aa5$3f66d010$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Anthony Baker : 
> Make one of your own. 

IYeah, that's what I plan on doing I think.. But my real main concern was
Ethe sites out there that have that reference that are now out of the
Fdesigner's control.  Thankfully I saw on Mark Pilgrim's site that the
Dpage isn't going anywhere, so we won't be sending folks to a 404 on
those older sites.
Ihttp://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/04/21/browser_upgrade_campaign_off
icially_retired.html

-- Josh

T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [25]
=================
*From: msauers at bcr.org (Michael Sauers)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:39:00 -0600
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
5In-Reply-To: <60376713968.20030424170541@mrclay.org>
;Message-ID: <KGEHKLFLLACNDPAKIHOPIEAHCPAA.msauers@bcr.org>

Steve;

KYou've just lost me completely. You're suggesting that <br /> doesn't make
Lsense to break a line into two but that we should span a space and classify
Iit as "br" (which you didn't say what that class is defined as) instead.

LWhy oh why would I do that? Why doesn't <br /> make sense structurally? Why
Mdo you suggest almost 15x the amount of code instead. This just doesn't make
7sense to me. Did I miss something in your explanation?

3--------------------------------------------------
,Michael Sauers, Librarian, Trainer & Author
*Bibliographical Center for Research (BCR)
3Aurora, CO :: 303-751-6277 x124 :: msauers@bcr.org
3--------------------------------------------------

G> Say you have a heading that's just a tad too long for a single line:
>
H> A <br /> just really doesn't make sense structurally and playing with
I> margins/padding until it wraps where you want is less-than-ideal (what
9> if the user chooses a slightly bigger/different font).
>
:> You could use non-breaking spaces to do something like:
>
G> <h1>Welcome&nbsp;to&nbsp;My&nbsp;Page About&nbsp;Race&nbsp;Cars</h1>
>
4> But this seems more elegant and content-friendly:
>
F> <h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

T13:43:45.176 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [26]
=================
#From: rudy937 at rogers.com (rudy)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:44:06 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
3References: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>
<Message-ID: <003f01c30aaa$a3bebb90$0cb96618@r9373j4yqbe8dy>

J> However I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
:> attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!
"> (www.saveburlingameschools.com)

*i love the apple with the bite out of it!

Lhowever, the colours on the nav links are identical in ie6 and mozilla, and
5in fact are no different in link versus hover status

,hover underlines the links in both browsers


rudy
T13:43:45.177 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [27]
=================
)From: d.abraham at netgates.co.uk (Dave)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:59:14 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3References: <1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com>
)	<00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
2Message-ID: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>

JI am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
Hresource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
replies. Not much use at all.

MI don't understand the logic behind it, anyone know of any other CSS mailing
)lists that don't adopt this odd policy??

LPS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna Casey
(sorry Donna) Not good at all.

T13:43:45.177 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [28]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:02:01 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
3References: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>
2Message-ID: <006801c30aad$226a5600$6401a8c0@yoda>

J> However I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
:> attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!

.Link colors are controlled by pseudo-classes.

.navbar li a:link {
color: #880026;
}

Lonnie
<From contact at lukeredpath.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 23:51:28 2003
2From: contact at lukeredpath.co.uk (Luke Redpath)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:51:28 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
EMessage-ID: <ENEMIKFCPDMDJCEEJFPPEEKNCGAA.contact@lukeredpath.co.uk>

JIf you are using Outlook to use this list, it's not hard to adjust - just
Jhit reply to all instead, and quickly delete the sender from the to list,
leaving the list address.

Simple!

Cheers,

Luke Redpath
--
www.sonicdeath.co.uk/weblog
C"Celebrity Squares" - giving the web a CSS makeover - coming soon!

T13:43:45.177 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [29]
=================
%From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:54:53 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051221498.17020@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051224895.24032@tweek.sebduggan.com>


+> From: "Michael Sauers" <msauers@bcr.org>
> 
M> You've just lost me completely. You're suggesting that <br /> doesn't make
N> sense to break a line into two but that we should span a space and classify
K> it as "br" (which you didn't say what that class is defined as) instead.
> 
N> Why oh why would I do that? Why doesn't <br /> make sense structurally? Why
O> do you suggest almost 15x the amount of code instead. This just doesn't make
9> sense to me. Did I miss something in your explanation?

KIf you put a <br /> in the middle of a sentence, it puts a hard structural
Mbreak in - where what you really want is a purely layout break which doesn't
affect the flow of the words.

MIt basically goes to the core of separating layout from content - in Steve's
Kexample, the <br /> is being used just for layout, and should therefore be
frowned on.

T13:43:45.177 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [30]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:01:36 -0700 (PDT)
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
-In-Reply-To: <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
< <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org> <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241558520.15423-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Sam Latchman wrote:
>
;> If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is
>
> address {margin: 0;}
%> <address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
+> <address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>
>
5> with possibly some class="street", class="city"...

G<address> is a block-level element, it contains a single block address
9(well, actually, a single block of contact information).

HThe above markup would be two addresses, not one. One address should be
Kmarked up with one <address> element, with lineBReaks marked up with <br>.

G<br> is fine, it's only "evil" when it is used to do something that is
Jstrictly presentational. An address has multiple lines even when you read
,it out over the phone, so <br> makes sense.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
;From mark.r.stevens at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 00:00:38 2003
1From: mark.r.stevens at attbi.com (markinoregon)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:00:38 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
DMessage-ID: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>

GWhat's the big deal, I just right click on the message I want to reply
Mto,click reply-all, then remove the person's e-mail address from the to bar,
'like I did just now with Dave's reply.
IIt's just a matter of people being aware of who the addresses are in the
Kreply to header. we all know the horror stories in a corporate environment
Fwhere some knucklehead reply's about something sensitive to EVERYONE!

<>I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
>replies. Not much use at all.

KI TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
Kpeople on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
Kto try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
Athinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.

just my .02 cents.

-----Original Message-----
*From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org
>[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org]On Behalf Of Dave
'Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 2:59 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
*Subject: Re: [css-d] Replying to the list


JI am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
Hresource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
replies. Not much use at all.

MI don't understand the logic behind it, anyone know of any other CSS mailing
)lists that don't adopt this odd policy??

LPS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna Casey
(sorry Donna) Not good at all.


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
T13:43:45.177 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [31]
=================
=From: Eli_Simpson at capgroup.com (Eli_Simpson@capgroup.com)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:14:15 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
CMessage-ID: <OF6AFD6A44.5D94CB6C-ON88256D12.007DFF19@capgroup.com>


F> <h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

EWith that solution you could end up with breaks between other words,
Idepending on font/window sizes.  Here's what I would do if you wanted to
5force a line break at that exact place and no other:

C<h1 style="white-space: nowrap">Welcome to My Page<br />About Race

Cars</h1>
T13:43:45.177 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [32]
=================
)From: d.abraham at netgates.co.uk (Dave)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:14:16 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
DReferences: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>
2Message-ID: <007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>


M> I TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
M> people on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
M> to try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
C> thinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.
>
> just my .02 cents.

MI have not been around long enough to see that. I am not saying people don't
Lhelp,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making the information
Lharder to find. It is more of an assumption and an observation after only a
day of watching mind.


T13:43:45.177 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [33]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:41:44 -0400
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
DReferences: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>
'	<007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>
#Message-ID: <3EA87638.46D7@ij.net>

Dave wrote:
 
> markinoregon wrote:

O> > I TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
O> > people on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
O> > to try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
E> > thinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.
 
O> I have not been around long enough to see that. I am not saying people don't
N> help,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making the information
N> harder to find. It is more of an assumption and an observation after only a
> day of watching mind.

Offlist replies mean:

E1-Others have no clue how many or even if others have responded to a
Brequest, which means there's no way for others to know whether an
+(additional) reply from them is warranted.

C2-Validity checking is unavailable. If others don't see responses,
:defective replies aren't trapped for rebuttal/correction.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
T13:43:45.177 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [34]
=================
.From: info at n2dreamweaver.com (Donna Casey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:43:55 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
References: 
O	<1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com><00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
'	<002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
4Message-ID: <003c01c30abb$5ef43290$7802a8c0@buglet>


H> PS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna
Casey
!> (sorry Donna) Not good at all.

Mnot a problem but my point was that the link to the ELM program was defunct.
JI found the setup here odd at first but adjusted even with OE after a few
'abrupt messages from the email police.

I--mostly lurk and snatch up the delicious crumbs of CSS that others drop
here and there....

J<slithering back to a dark corner of the list.....we loves it here, don't
we, my preciousssss......>

T13:43:45.177 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [35]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:50:04 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
References: 
O	<1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com><00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
'	<002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
2Message-ID: <00f701c30abc$3abdc2f0$fd00a8c0@mike>

Dave

KI rarely send a message to a list... and though I've been an ardent lurker
Bfor a while this may well be the first time I have written to it.

JYou may already have learned something from replies as to how to reply to
Mthe list. Simple enough to use "reply-all" etc but so many people don't know
it.

MMore seriously, on CSS, there is no way you will get better quality in-depth
LCSS info anywhere. Far in advance of (incompetent) table based Web-dev too.
FWriter's to the list have combined technical knowledge and experience
Eunequalled. Enormously helpful, almost always on topic, friendly and
Hrespectful. Better than books or formal study. Stay with it a while and
Hyou'll see what I mean, give yourself time to get the "feel" of all the
helpful characters involved.

HTH, and welcome.

Mike
Edinburgh, Scotland

L> I am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
J> resource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
 > replies. Not much use at all.
T13:43:45.177 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [36]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:54:42 -0400
ISubject: [css-d] Helpfulness of the list (was Re:  Replying to the list)
3In-Reply-To: <007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>
7Message-ID: <007801c30abc$e3252e60$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



	> Dave :
<> I have not been around long enough to see that. I am not 
> saying people don't
?> help,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making 
> the information
6> harder to find. It is more of an assumption and an 
> observation after only a
> day of watching mind.


GJust a friendly suggestion Dave, hang out and give it a bit more time.
FWhat you don't see yet, and what impressed the hell outta me was just
>*how much* time some people here put into helping others with
Hworkarounds, helping with bug research, browser/os issues and the like.
BA lot of that help seems to happen on off time like after work or
Ebetween projects (I assume a lot of other people 'work' for a living
around here). 

EIf you take a cruise through the archives, it'll become obvious that
Isome of those answers and suggestions take a LONG time just to formulate
Ibefore it makes it to the list.  I say obvious because of the sheer size
"and complexity of some of them.  

EGo through and look at some of the replies from Holly Bergevin... At
Itimes she's reproduced entire pages with full code and original graphics
Hjust to help someone with their trouble.  And she's not the only one, I
Hdon't mean to exclude anyone, she's just the first that came to memory.
GPersonally, I can't figure out where some of these kind people get the
time!

CMany times people will solve their own problem that was previously
Eposted to the list and are kind enough to say "I figured it out, and
here's how..."

HDon't forget, many subscribe as Digest Mode, so they only get one email
Ea day, not every single one.  This slows down the process a bit too.

HYMMV, but I looked for a while JUST for this kind of help and this kind
Gof discussion, and while there are some other nice places out there, I
Hreally think, bang-for-the-buck, you just can't beat this list for this
particular issue. :)

--Josh


T13:43:45.177 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [37]
=================
;From: css-discuss at plumlee.org (css-discuss@plumlee.org)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:22:43 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
<Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030424201237.00bbd7c0@plumlee.org>

LI've been trying to use the excellent layouts provided by Alex Robinson to 
;cure a layout with Mac IE problems.  Ran across something 
Minteresting/infuriating and I'm hoping that someone here can either explain 
6it to me or point me in the direction of a known bug.

CUsing this layout, I tried to set up a page with a fixed width of 
.762px.  Left column is 120px, right is 145px.
�http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml?order=213&width_one=50&width_two=120&width_three=145&wrap_width=762&column_gutter=0&column_vertical_padding=0&column_horizontal_padding=0&columns_background=1&border_surround=0&body_padding=0&longest_column=one&controls=1&show_style=0

LLooks great in Mozilla and Opera.  If I try to place an image in the right 
Jhand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE 
5refuses to display the content in that third column.

HShorten the length of the image by 4px, and it displays.  Lengthen the 
Loverall length of the container div by 4px, it displays.  It looks like IE 
Kis placing a a 4px padding around the image.  Tried setting it to display 
&inline and block, no luck either way.

IBut if I float the image left or right, IE 6 works perfectly.  I've run 
Lacross problems where IE 6 collapses padding and margins when elements are 
Jadjacent to floated elements, so it seems that I'm taking advantage of a 
hack here.

Any thoughts?

Scott Plumlee
JPGP Public key: http://plumlee.org/pgp/   D64C 47D9 B855 5829 D22A  D390 
F8E2 9B58 9CBF 1F8D
T13:43:45.184 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [38]
=================
0From: earthwrk at earthlink.net (Bill Scheider)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:00:41 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <00f701c30abc$3abdc2f0$fd00a8c0@mike>
BMessage-ID: <MABBLFKKJOFHOKMHGDFOKEEOCPAA.earthwrk@earthlink.net>

	Hi Mike,

9I totally agree with you RE the quality of the CSS info.

MIt's not only better than books but many of the folks discussing CSS on this
:list have /written/ the books! It doesn't get any better.

Bill
G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

T13:43:45.184 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [39]
=================
,From: john at evolt.org.uk (John Handelaar)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 03:09:36 +0100
NSubject: ADMIN: End of thread, please. (was RE: [css-d] Replying to the list,
	and others)
CIn-Reply-To: <MABBLFKKJOFHOKMHGDFOKEEOCPAA.earthwrk@earthlink.net>
=Message-ID: <HNEPIHIKGMNGPEJJCMGMGEGACGAA.john@evolt.org.uk>


3My apologies to those who were wondering where the
 stand-in listmom went to today.

0It's time to stop this thread, I think, in the 
4interest of maintaining our regular signal-to-noise
ratio.

1Eric's position on header munging is very clear,
.and the relevant explanation on the wiki was 
posted earlier this afternoon.

3That wiki post also makes it abundantly clear that
3the place to drag this up (since it's clearly off-
-topic) is in private mail to the list owner.

-Eric will be back in a couple of weeks.  I'd
2appreciate not getting mail on the subject during
4his absence since I'm certainly not about to change
5the list settings without being able to consult him.

3I hope that I don't have to enforce this tomorrow,

folks :-)

Thanks for your attention.

John H
Server admin
,On behalf of the currently-absent Mr Meyer.

+------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

+T +44 20 8459 4923       M +44 7930 681789
+F +44 870 169 7657   E john@userfrenzy.com
+------------------------------------------
:From chris at placenamehere.com  Fri Apr 25 04:26:50 2003
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:26:50 -0400
CSubject: [css-d] [ANNC] PNH Developer Toolbar for Mozilla/Netscape
6In-Reply-To: <BAC2D566.52680%chris@placenamehere.com>
5Message-ID: <BACE233A.5380F%chris@placenamehere.com>

Eon 4/16/03 9:39 AM, Chris Casciano at chris@placenamehere.com wrote:

L> Since the cat is out of the bag already I figured I'd pass along the word
?> that I've released a toolbar add on for web developers using
> Mozilla/Netscape.
> 

1v0.51 is here! you firebird users get your wish!

%http://placenamehere.com/pnhtoolbar/

"Change Log for v0.51 (from v0.50)
F* Added a Firebird/Phoenix compatible installer w/ minor link changes
!* Added encoding of complex URLs
* Fixed a few typos
)* Added submission the W3C P3P Validator
)* Added Link to the DevEdge Sidebar Tabs

8Grab it now! Feedback to moz@placenamehere.com, please.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
T13:43:45.184 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [40]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:08 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
5Message-ID: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>

1Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
MS> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
KS> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
)S> stylesheets, there would be no break.

GSince this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
(for the methods described by Seb and I:
!http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
T13:43:45.184 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [41]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:25:09 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] Select first LI of an UL
>In-Reply-To: <F552B577-74D1-11D7-B5E8-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
=References: <F552B577-74D1-11D7-B5E8-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
3Message-ID: <12059885896.20030424222509@attbi.com>

6Arlen wrote on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 at 9:51:54 AM:

> li {font-weight: bold;}
> li + li {font-weight:normal}

B> [...] When it fails, the entire list will be bolded, so perhaps
?> you'll want to combine it with a hack that screens out those
1> browsers from seeing the initial bold styling.

CThis should have a better success rate, and it's not really a hack
;(i.e., it makes common sense, even if it is a bit longer):

    ul>li{font-weight:bold}
!    ul>li+li{font-weight:normal}

@There aren't many browsers that support child selectors without
'supporting adjacent sibling selectors.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.184 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [42]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:22:54 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] lists line height
7In-Reply-To: <014101c30931$efd61ca0$6001a8c0@felwithe>
3References: <000001c30930$2a93df00$42d5fea9@Estes>
+ <014101c30931$efd61ca0$6001a8c0@felwithe>
2Message-ID: <8263351585.20030424232254@attbi.com>

7Brandy wrote on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 at 7:47:37 PM:

$> http://clients.mediadiva.net/css/

C> The links on the left bottom side, I have the line height set to
E> 120, and I like how it looks, but I thought it was possible to set
?> the height between each LI element and then the height of an
G> individual LI element itself. This way links the run over to 2 lines
)> will look like 1 link and not 2 links.

'> Anyone know what I am talking about?

BYes. Although it took me a while to understand. :) If you want to
Cretain the line-height but have the links' background-color remain
G"together" over multiple lines, I think you'll need to use padding-top
3and padding-bottom on the a elements. For example:

    ul li a{padding:.2em 0}

CShould do the trick. You may also consider this, depending on your
0needs, but I doubt it will be more appropriate:

    ul>li a{padding:.2em 0}

$Support isn't as good, at any rate.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.184 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [43]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:18:01 -0500
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
4In-Reply-To: <000001c30a0f$5ab9d060$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
3References: <000001c30a0f$5ab9d060$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
3Message-ID: <14863058716.20030424231801@attbi.com>

9Aleem wrote on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 at 10:12:35 PM:

D> When I said semantic, I wasn't looking for a response along these
G> lines, but rather something which went beyond - example: by default,
F> does the body have a margin of ~10px from the frame or a padding of
D> 10px within? Is either semantically correct? In publishing, pages
C> don't have a frame (chrome) and since electronic publishing is a
D> derivative of print, I would go with padding instead of margin on
> that one.

ACSS agrees with you. <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/sample.html>

AI don't think it's possible to make a case for margin, if you're
Efamiliar with the spec. Of course that's what most browsers use. The
Eabove sample style sheet is just a suggestion, which is a good thing
	overall.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.185 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [44]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:23:38 -0500
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
0In-Reply-To: <3EA750F0.4020602@adelaide.edu.au>
3References: <000601c309f6$2e39ca90$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
$ <3EA750F0.4020602@adelaide.edu.au>
1Message-ID: <663395931.20030424232338@attbi.com>

8Steve wrote on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 at 9:50:24 PM:

?> <aside> Seems to me that many posts to this list are readily
@> answered by reference to the CSS2 spec. OK, it's not the most
G> readable spec in the world, and sometimes you need to read something
E> two or three times before you get it, but, it is worth reading. If
E> you haven't got it, get it. Mine is on my desk, or nearby, all the
> time. </aside>

-Those types of questions aren't discouraged.
+<http://www.css-discuss.org/policies.html>

FYour advice is nonetheless helpful, of course. I think what we really
Gneed is a comprehensive "spec for dummies," a document that deals with
CCSS2 as simply as possible, written for CSS authors instead of CSS
Fimplementors. A basic CSS vocabulary tutorial alone would be amazing;
Eeven veteran authors fudge their technospeak jargon. I think most of
Dthe CSS2 spec is pretty readable nowadays, but a couple years ago I
!was confused by simple passages.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.185 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [45]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:24:35 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
6In-Reply-To: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
*	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
/Message-ID: <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>

Steve Clay wrote:
3> Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
O> S> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
M> S> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
+> S> stylesheets, there would be no break.
> 
I> Since this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
*> for the methods described by Seb and I:
#> http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks

Nice page!

I notice you used

	white-space:pre-line;

 whereas the CSS2 spec at W3 has

	white-space:pre;

"Is this something new? Or a typo?


:I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using 
Awhitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in 
9the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

@<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
#   <meta http-equiv="content-type"
+  content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
/   <meta name="author" content="Steve Thomas">
   <title>Test</title>
   <style type="text/css">
      h1 { text-align: center; }
"     h1#pref { white-space:pre; }
   </style>
</head>
<body>
#<h1 id="pref">Dr. Strangelove,<br>
or:<br>
6How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb</h1>
<p>Blah blah blah</p>
</body>
</html>

AOn browsers which don't implement whitespace, this will degrade 
Anicely. Those that do will display the heading precisely as you 
@want. (With the caveat that whitespace:pre will keep each line 
:as given, even with narrow windows, requiring scrolling.)

AAbove all, this preserves the semantic integrity of the heading 
*intact, without the need to embed coding.


Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
T13:43:45.185 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [46]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:00:58 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
6Message-ID: <0C1E480F.3B3D924D.009CE500@netscape.net>

css-discuss@plumlee.org wrote:

$>layouts provided by Alex Robinson 

�>http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml?order=213&width_one=50&width_two=120&width_three=145&wrap_width=762&column_gutter=0&column_vertical_padding=0&column_horizontal_padding=0&columns_background=1&border_surround=0&body_padding=0&longest_column=one&controls=1&show_style=0

*>If I try to place an image in the right 
M>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6. �IE 
6>refuses to display the content in that third column.

�Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the size of the image. Is it possible you have a page you could put up so your specific case can be looked at? That would make it easier to give specific suggestions instead of theoritical ones.

�As for hacks for IE, (and other browsers as needed), in my opinion, they are inevitable. As long as they validate, and don't mess something up for another browser (that cannot be worked around) you're probably going to have to use some. 

�However, I always try to see if I can write/fix a page in such a way as to use the least number possible. What that means is if IE6 needs to have and image floated to work, and floating that image doesn't bother other browsers, I write it so the image is floated and move on to something else. 

Now, about that URL...

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
4From gleemax at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 06:10:45 2003
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:10:45 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
0In-Reply-To: <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
M <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org> <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
3Message-ID: <12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>

8Steve wrote on Thursday, April 24, 2003 at 11:54:35 PM:

 >         white-space:pre-line;

$> Is this something new? Or a typo?

8It's new in CSS 2.1, which is not yet a recommendation:
8<http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/text.html#white-space-prop>

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.186 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [47]
=================
,From: gavin at refinery.com (Gavin Kistner)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:21:43 -0600
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
@Message-ID: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>

EForgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the 
<browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
0http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

CMy expectation was for the way Camino/Mozilla did it to be right. 
F(Under the assumption that 100% was based off of the 'standard' line 
Fheight, and hence >100% should result in increased line spacing, not 
decreased.)

HBut now the spec seems to imply that something like Safari may be more 
Ecorrect. I'm just...very unused to Mozilla getting something wrong. 
I(Camino is built off of the Mozilla 1.0 trunk, IIRC, but the appearance 
is the same in 1.2.1 also.)
T13:43:45.186 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [48]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:06:24 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
M	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org> <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
(	<12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA8C958.2010405@adelaide.edu.au>

John Lewis wrote:
:> Steve wrote on Thursday, April 24, 2003 at 11:54:35 PM:
> 
> 
 >>        white-space:pre-line;
> 
> 
$>>Is this something new? Or a typo?
> 
> 
:> It's new in CSS 2.1, which is not yet a recommendation:
9> <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/text.html#white-space-prop
> 

@Thanks. And amazingly, although not yet even a recommendation, 
 it works! (In Moz 1.2.1 anyway)

AI guess on reflection, that gives you an insight into how these 
0standards are generated in the first place. :-)

	Regards,
Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
T13:43:45.186 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [49]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:47:25 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Path Positioning Problem.
6Message-ID: <02A69262.14063CDB.009CE500@netscape.net>

5"Will Boyett" <WBoyett@smtp.co.alachua.fl.us> wrote:

I>Hello all, I'm still rather new to this list, and so appologize for any
>faux pas on my part.

Hi Will - Welcome to the list.

>here is my dilema:
>
H>I am trying to make a local path statement in a bar, with a link to my
L>site map on the right margin of the same bar. �So far, so good. However,
E>my Site Map link keeps overlapping the text of my path statement on
>narrow monitors, 
[snip]

�Now I have to apologize, because even with your explanation and the code you provided, you lost me. Is it possible for you to provide a URL to the page in question so we can give it a look see? If the content is restricted, strip it out and replace it with dummy text. Working with the actual page generally offers the best opportunity for someone to provide helpful advice.

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
8From holnkids at netscape.net  Fri Apr 25 07:04:05 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:04:05 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
6Message-ID: <69589F46.5F9A91EF.009CE500@netscape.net>

#Donna m87 <dm87@rogers.com> wrote:

H>I have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
H>header, content and footer. �When the content increases, the footer 
>is overwritten.
>
D>How can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
D>volume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?
>
G>What sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

aHi Donna - Have you seen the wiki pages about different layout options? The main page is here - 
0http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts

�There are links to several other wiki pages from the above page that discuss the merits and difficulties of various types of layouts as well as links to outside sources. 

�In addition, Bob Easton has assembled a very nice collection of links to 3-column-layouts (with notes about the techniques used on each) - 
8http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ThreeColumnLayouts

gIf you don't need that many columns, many 3-column layouts can be adjusted to work with fewer columns.

HTH,

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Fri Apr 25 09:18:24 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:18:24 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051243530.20492@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051258707.23490@tweek.sebduggan.com>


JThanks Steve - I couldn't have explained it better myself (and, indeed, I
didn't...).

Seb


&> From: Steve Clay <steve@mrclay.org>
*> Reply-To: Steve Clay <steve@mrclay.org>
(> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:08 -0400
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
3> Subject: Re: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
> 
> 
3> Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
O> S> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
M> S> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
+> S> stylesheets, there would be no break.
> 
I> Since this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
*> for the methods described by Seb and I:
#> http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks
> 
> Steve
> -- 
> http://mrclay.org/
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 

T13:43:45.187 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [50]
=================
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:22:35 +0100
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
2Message-ID: <1051262556.1547@tweek.sebduggan.com>


:Is there any way to set the minimum height of an element?

LThere is the CSS2 property min-height, but it only seems to be supported in
MOpera 6+ and Gecko/Mozilla browsers - no versions of IE, or the current beta
(of Safari (although it may come later).

JSo, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x pixels
Lhigh, while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary? (And before
Lsomeone suggests it, I don't intend putting a 1px x 400px gif in my page ;)


Seb

T13:43:45.187 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [51]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:28:02 +0200
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

E> So, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x
pixels high,=20
:while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary?
GIn IE on PC, it will expand if you have set the height to 20px and its
content is bigger...
FHowever, you can't use min-height and height in conjunction for Gecko
etc.

So, for IE on PC, use this:

height:20px;

0and for standrads-compliant browsers, use this:

min-height:20px;


/Robert
1From rijk at opera.com  Fri Apr 25 10:46:42 2003
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:46:42 +0200
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
MReferences: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
)Message-ID: <oprn6ir4x6yoq9u9@localhost>

LOn Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:28:02 +0200, Robert Nyman <robert.nyman@centus.com> 
wrote:

F>> So, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x
J>> pixels high, while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary?

I> In IE on PC, it will expand if you have set the height to 20px and its
> content is bigger...
H> However, you can't use min-height and height in conjunction for Gecko
> etc.
>
> So, for IE on PC, use this:
>
> height:20px;
2> and for standrads-compliant browsers, use this:
> min-height:20px;

For example like this:

$div {height:20px; min-height:20px;}
html>body div {height:auto;}

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
@ making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com M
T13:43:45.187 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [52]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:59:02 +0100
ISubject: [css-d] safari and mac IE5 hacks or alternative layout solution
	needed
0Message-ID: <3EA906E6.1010304@starskiweb.co.uk>

Hi All

JI need some help with this conversion from a table layout to a tableless 
layout. This is it so far:-

:http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/3_col_margin_border.htm

GI have a fixed width 3 column layout with a liquid header and footer. 
HColumns 2 and 3 have their own header. I have tried various solutions, 
Cbut currently I have 2 main floating columns, the second of which 
Econtains two floating sub columns. I have used a top margin to push 
Jthese two sub columns down and have an absolutely positioned heading for 
Jthese columns. The center and right columns need a border so this was my 
.main reason for wrapping them in another div.

EThis works on PC IE5 and 6, Mozilla 1.3, but safari (not sure which 
Mversion) the footer wont stay put and and IE5 mac the main column drifts up.

HThis doesn't need to support Netscape 4 - I will be hiding most of the 
styling from that.

--
Rick Hurst
http://hypothecate.co.uk
T13:43:45.187 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [53]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:48:47 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
6In-Reply-To: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
*	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
/Message-ID: <3EA90B87.3010409@adelaide.edu.au>

>Arrgghh! Apologies to all, my HTML editor mangled my example 
Bcode, which should of course NOT have <br> tags in the middle of 
:the header. Here's the corrected version (at the risk of 
prolonging the bordom):

...

9I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
@whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
9the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

@<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
$    <meta http-equiv="content-type"
,   content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
0    <meta name="author" content="Steve Thomas">
    <title>Test</title>
    <style type="text/css">
!      h1 { text-align: center; }
#      h1#pref { white-space:pre; }
    </style>
</head>
<body>
<h1 id="pref">Dr. Strangelove,
or:
6How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb</h1>
<p>Blah blah blah</p>
</body>
</html>

@On browsers which don't implement whitespace, this will degrade
@nicely. Those that do will display the heading precisely as you
?want. (With the caveat that whitespace:pre will keep each line
:as given, even with narrow windows, requiring scrolling.)

@Above all, this preserves the semantic integrity of the heading
*intact, without the need to embed coding.

<(And no, whitespace:pre-line; doesn't work in Moz1.2.1/PC.)


8Hopefully that makes more sense than the previous post.


Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
T13:43:45.187 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [54]
=================
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:06 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051266048.25755@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051268466.27913@tweek.sebduggan.com>


6> From: Steve Thomas <stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au>
>....
;> I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
B> whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
;> the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

MVery nice Steve - this seems to be the most elegant solution so far - and it
2seems to work in every browser I've thrown it at!

(I'll be changing my own code to this...


Seb

T13:43:45.187 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [55]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:00:13 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
AIn-Reply-To: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
3Message-ID: <16087194233.20030425060013@attbi.com>

6Gavin wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 12:21:43 AM:

2> http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

D> My expectation was for the way Camino/Mozilla did it to be right.
G> (Under the assumption that 100% was based off of the 'standard' line
G> height, and hence >100% should result in increased line spacing, not
> decreased.)

BThe suggested default line-height value is between 1 and 1.2, but
Athere is no rule saying browsers need to follow it. Any value is
Facceptable according to CSS2. That means it's impossible to determine
Gif a value greater than 100% will be bigger, smaller, or the same. All
:this without taking crazy user style sheets into account!

FAfter reading CSS2, playing with line-height in Opera 7.1 and Mozilla
G1.4a, and comparing renderings for far too long, I'm stumped. I really
Fhave very little idea of how the inline box model and line-height are
Gsupposed to work. For the most part, with identical values Mozilla and
FOpera returned similar and even identical results. That's comforting.
GFor some reason, Mozilla doesn't behave anything like Camino. At first
EI thought my test page was strange; then I visited your page and the
EMozilla result look basically identical to Opera and Safari. I can't
Dexplain the Mac IE or Camino results. I don't expect line-height to
5behave like that, but I'm pretty weak on the theory.

8The shoddiness of the Win IE rendering is self-evident.

BI'd be interested to see if anyone knows or can figure out why my
AMozilla and your Camino rendering look so different. I don't use
BMozilla much, so I haven't changed anything but the default font.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.187 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [56]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:11:04 +0200
OSubject: [css-d] Tip: How to add a rule with script and use the Box Model Hack
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D2@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

ITo use the Box Model hack in script, you need to add an extra backslash,
Hsince JavaScript interprets the first one for string escape purposes...

	Example:

6oStyleSheet.addRule("div.levelItem", "height:22px;");
8oStyleSheet.addRule("div.levelItem", "he\\ight:20px;");


/Robert
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Fri Apr 25 12:23:06 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:23:06 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D3@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

<Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only,
(which browsers are the most common etc?


/Robert
8From rick at starskiweb.co.uk  Fri Apr 25 13:10:08 2003
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:10:08 +0100
3Subject: [css-d] how do I hide style from Mac IE5?
0Message-ID: <3EA925A0.4080609@starskiweb.co.uk>

FI've made some progress with my liquid header and footer/fixed width 
Jcolumns layout problem and now my only real concern is the IE5 mac mess:-

)http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v6.htm

>so what I want now is just a hack to hide styles from mac IE5

cheers

--
Rick Hurst
http://hypothecate.co.uk
T13:43:45.189 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [57]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:09:11 +0200
3Subject: [css-d] how do I hide style from Mac IE5?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052DC@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

@> so what I want now is just a hack to hide styles from mac IE5
8http://www.sam-i-am.com/testsuite/css/mac_ie5_hack.html

/Robert
3From dmead at optiem.com  Fri Apr 25 13:21:47 2003
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:21:47 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] Hyperlink position in NN4.7
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E928D@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

Hi all,

EI've only joined the list yesterday and I already have a question to
pose.

GI'm designing a web site that has to be "viewable" down to NN4.7.  I'm
Iusing table with some CSS to style content in the cells etc.  My problem
	is this.

EMy footer nav runs nicely along the bottom (shortened version here):

  <div class=3D"footernav">=20
0  <p>&nbsp;<a href=3D"#">MENU</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a
#href=3D"#">LOCATIONS&nbsp;</a></p>
	  </div>

with the CSS code:

E  .footernav { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
G8px; color: #FEAC22; text-decoration: none; background-color: #7B0808;
padding: 5px 10px; }
H  .footernav a:link { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:
E#FEAC22; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px; background-color:
transparent; }
D  .footernav a:visited { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
:color: #FEAC22; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px;
 background-color: transparent;}
I  .footernav a:hover { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:
E#FFFFFF; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px; background-color:
transparent; }

=It looks fine in IE but when viewed in NN4.7 the links stack
Hone-on-top-of-another instead of side-by-side!  I've created a separate
Fstyle sheet for NN and removed the padding from the CSS code and this
Fbunches them all up (hence the two &nbsp; between links).  Is there a
)way around this or is this the best fix.

FI did a quick check through the archives but didn't turn anything up.
FApologies if the code is a little sloppy but I'm still finding my CSS
feet so to speak.

Many thanks,

Dave
T13:43:45.189 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [58]
=================
4From: larz at cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Ryan La Riviere)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:38:54 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] New CSS2 Site - XHTML 1.0
7In-Reply-To: <006f01c30920$b0d61750$6001a8c0@felwithe>
6Message-ID: <BACE968E.27D21%larz@cbis.ece.drexel.edu>

JOn 04/22/2003 18:44, "Brandy (mediadiva)" <fortuneb@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> who did?
> 
>> 
1>> Yea...spelled Cingular wrong on the file.  :/

JMe on the screenshot's file name I had uploaded...I should have specified
the "I" part.

-Ryan

-- 
Mr. Ryan La Riviere
6Project Manager; Mechanical Engineering and Mechanics
*College of Engineering; Drexel University
Philadelphia, PA 19104

*hp: http://staff.tdec.drexel.edu/~edljedi
IM (AIM, Yahoo, MSN): edljedi
w: 215.895.6460
<Geek Code: http://staff.tded.drexel.edu/~edljedi/geeksville

HOne thing the hardware engineers just can't seem to get the bugs out of
is... fresh paint.
T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [59]
=================
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:51:43 +0000
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>



=>Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only,
)>which browsers are the most common etc?

+My own stats, for what they're worth, say:

Ecxplorer 5    69%
Safari         15%
Mozilla         6%
Netscape 6      4%
Netscape 4      4%
Explorer 4      2%

NNote that these numbers are mainly from my development sites which attract a 
7higher share of non-IE browsers than the average site.

IWhichever stats you'll find, please keep in mind that Safari's share is 
Igoing to rise dramatically when it becomes the default browser for OS X.

GAny Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and 
Safari.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
;MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
)http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [60]
=================
;From: css-discuss at plumlee.org (css-discuss@plumlee.org)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:54:17 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
7In-Reply-To: <0C1E480F.3B3D924D.009CE500@netscape.net>
<Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030425084249.00b5a738@plumlee.org>

(At 01:00 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:

+ >>If I try to place an image in the right
L >>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE
8 >>refuses to display the content in that third column.
 >
L >Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I
N >could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending
M >on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the
M >size of the image. Is it possible you have a page you could put up so your
M >specific case can be looked at? That would make it easier to give specific
+ >suggestions instead of theoritical ones.

6thank you for the response.  I've placed a page here:
Lhttp://wgi.org/2003/indexmac2.php where you can copy the code and watch it 
Hhappen.  Allow the float, works in IE.  Remove the float, doesn't show.

MWith the float: left in place for the img tag, it display correctly in IE 6 
>and Mozilla and Opera 7.10.  Without it, it vanishes in IE 6.

JAgain, many thinks to Alex Robinson for all the work on the page, and to 
Kthe other contributors (including Holly, I believe) that are listed there.

M >However, I always try to see if I can write/fix a page in such a way as to
M >use the least number possible. What that means is if IE6 needs to have and
F >image floated to work, and floating that image doesn't bother other
N >browsers, I write it so the image is floated and move on to something else.

JI appreciate the advice.  I think I might have a "immovable object meets 
>the irresistible force" complex about this problem right now.
T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [61]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:57:14 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052E0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

Interesting!
GEspecially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
!dramatically increase later on).
IHave you seen any pattern when it comes to versions of IE, i.e. 5.0, 5.1
	and 5.2?


/Robert


-----Original Message-----
<From: Peter-Paul Koch [mailto:gassinaumasis@hotmail.com]=20
Sent: den 25 april 2003 14:52
.To: Robert Nyman; css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
4Subject: Re: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?




F>Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only, which=20
#>browsers are the most common etc?

+My own stats, for what they're worth, say:

Ecxplorer 5    69%
Safari         15%
Mozilla         6%
Netscape 6      4%
Netscape 4      4%
Explorer 4      2%

CNote that these numbers are mainly from my development sites which
attract a=20
7higher share of non-IE browsers than the average site.

KWhichever stats you'll find, please keep in mind that Safari's share is=20
Igoing to rise dramatically when it becomes the default browser for OS X.

IAny Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and=20
Safari.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
4http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/ Column "Keep it Simple":
1http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
=MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.=20
+http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/virus
T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [62]
=================
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:14:06 +0000
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>


>Interesting!
H>Especially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
">dramatically increase later on).

AMy Safari stats are especially unreliable because I posted some 
LSafari-related material pretty soon after the beta was released. Naturally 
Hgeeky Safari users first take a look at sites discussing their beloved 
	browser.

LFor the non-geeky sites I keep track of the score is between 2 and 10 % of 
4all Mac users (and I find that 10% strangely high).

K>Have you seen any pattern when it comes to versions of IE, i.e. 5.0, 5.1 

>and 5.2?

Nope.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
>Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 
,http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [63]
=================
5From: WBoyett at smtp.co.alachua.fl.us (Will Boyett)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:56:18 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Path Positioning Problem.
1Message-ID: <sea90654.037@smtp.co.alachua.fl.us>

Holly et all;

GFirst off, let me say that I recieved an off-list reply from Jason Van
FPelt which has not only served as the foundation for my correction of
Dthe issue I was having, but has also served to illuminate whole new
Iaspects of CSS which I only dimly understood before... a classic example
Cof a working example being worth volumes of technical explanation.

DThat said, I would be happy to provide a link to the site, and I do
Iwelcome other construcitve commentary. My goal/directive is to provide a
Every accessible site using CSS layout, and favoring a "Red White and
IBlue" palette.  I have inherited a lot of code from previous webmasters,
Eand as the redesign is only one of my job duties, I have not had the
Itime to devote to removing all of the older legacy elements to date. The
Imain page (which does not use the path statement I wrote for help on) is
in my signature.

Chttp://elections.alachua.fl.us/welcome.html is one of the pages in
Hwhich the code can be seen. The "problem code" was the red outlined box
Hwith the path statement and the site map link. It now has new code, and
works as originally intended.


William Dove Boyett
#Alachua County Elections Webmaster
"http://elections.co.alachua.fl.us
8-------------------------------------------------------
!"The user owns the Back button."
4-- Dr. Jakob Nielsen, http://www.useit.com/alertbox

@>>> Holly Bergevin <holnkids@netscape.net> 04/25/03 01:47AM >>>
[snip snip]
DNow I have to apologize, because even with your explanation and the
Hcode you provided, you lost me. Is it possible for you to provide a URL
Hto the page in question so we can give it a look see? If the content is
Frestricted, strip it out and replace it with dummy text. Working with
Ethe actual page generally offers the best opportunity for someone to
provide helpful advice.

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
1http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380 

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
9http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 
G______________________________________________________________________
+css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] 
3http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d 
DSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ 


.Inbound Mail Scanned by Mcafee Web Appliance.




/OutBound Mail Scanned by Mcafee Web Appliance.

T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [64]
=================
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:13:00 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741F4@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

EI have the following style, which "works" in all browsers outside of
Netscape 4.76:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
  background-color: #FFE;
  border-top:  1px solid #EEE;
  border-left: 1px solid #EEE;
!  border-bottom: 1px solid #333;
!  border-right:  1px solid #777;
}

DNetscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:

  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;

KRemove them and all's well with the world, include either and it generates
errors and closes.

LAny way around this outside of creating a special style sheet for Netscape?

	Thanks -

george
T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [65]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:21:40 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <46.381a3fa4.2bda9e74@aol.com>



LFirst I'd like to say this list has been an excellent resource to me, and I
 think everyone else will agree.


OBut I'd like to point out that lately list posters seem to be blindly posting 
to the
Llist. What I mean is, People might be forgetting that some email providers 
Olike the one I use (AOL) actually interpret HTML tags in email. Which means I 

don't see
Lthem in the context of the message, I see it as if I were reading the post 
through
a browser window.


EWhen you refer to [b] tag I see the rest of the message in bold text
Junless you use the closing [/b] tag. Oh, and try reading a message with a
heading tag in it.


MNow don't get me wrong, I don't mean to chastise the list, but this does get
>annoying. So please accept my apologies if I offended anyone.



Thank You
Curt
>From Michael_Landis at capgroup.com  Fri Apr 25 15:38:57 2003
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:38:57 -0700
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
CMessage-ID: <OFCBF69188.A61F3A48-ON88256D13.004F8FB1@capgroup.com>


George Smyth wrote:

G> I have the following style, which "works" in all browsers outside of
> Netscape 4.76:

> .NavText {
>   font-size: 0.7em;
>   text-align: left;
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;
>   background-color: #FFE;
!>   border-top:  1px solid #EEE;
!>   border-left: 1px solid #EEE;
#>   border-bottom: 1px solid #333;
#>   border-right:  1px solid #777;
> }
>
F> Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
>
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;

INetscape 4 tends to act like the proverbial straw-carrying camel. We all
Gknow it is buggy to one extent or another, but each bug-tripping style
Kdeclaration seems to add a little bit more to its instability. If too many
Kbuggy declarations (that is, valid CSS that causes bugs in NS 4) appear in
Kthe CSS, it will hang, crash, and otherwise let you down when it hits that
final straw.

IIf you don't want to switch stylesheets, you might want to resort to the
HCiao NS4-hiding hack (http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CaioHack) to
Kremove enough styles to let it limp along. You may want to hide additional
;ones, so that you aren't right at the edge of instability.

KAnother alternative is to link a stylesheet that only contains styles that
Lare solid with NS 4, then import a second sheet that adds additional styles
for "good" browsers.

HTH,

MikeL
T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [66]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:45:34 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] Hyperlink position in NN4.7
CMessage-ID: <OF642D1E9C.73522B52-ON88256D13.0050CA54@capgroup.com>


Dave Mead wrote:

G> My footer nav runs nicely along the bottom (shortened version here):

[snip]

?> It looks fine in IE but when viewed in NN4.7 the links stack
J> one-on-top-of-another instead of side-by-side!  I've created a separate
H> style sheet for NN and removed the padding from the CSS code and this
H> bunches them all up (hence the two &nbsp; between links).  Is there a
+> way around this or is this the best fix.

GAs you have discovered, adding padding or margins to an inline element
Hconverts it to a block element in NS 4. I haven't seen a workaround for
this.

Sorry for the bad news! :-)

MikeL
T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [67]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:44:47 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD7@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

George Smyth wrote:
F> Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
>=20
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;
>=20
@> Remove them and all's well with the world, include either and
"> it generates errors and closes.

HYou can remove "width: auto" safely (unless a width is being inherited)
)and/or you can use Caio's Hack, like so:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
/*/*/
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
/**/
  background-color: #FFE;
  border:  1px solid #EEE;
  border-bottom-color: #333;
  border-right-color: :#777;
}

5(Note: I just shortened your border styles slightly)

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
3From ken at kpmartin.com  Fri Apr 25 16:09:05 2003
'From: ken at kpmartin.com (Ken Martin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:09:05 -0500
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
@Message-ID: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>

FI checked the wiki and didn't see anything, though I suspect this is 
probably frequently asked.

HDoes PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if 
DI need to use it in tandem with other declarations or if it simply 
doesn't work.

TIA

Ken Martin
T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [68]
=================
 From: jgay at tla.com (Jim Gay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:17:07 -0400
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
,In-Reply-To: <46.381a3fa4.2bda9e74@aol.com>
)Message-ID: <BACEC9B3.6927%jgay@tla.com>

P> But I'd like to point out that lately list posters seem to be blindly posting
	> to the
M> list. What I mean is, People might be forgetting that some email providers
P> like the one I use (AOL) actually interpret HTML tags in email. Which means I
> don't see
M> them in the context of the message, I see it as if I were reading the post

> through
> a browser window.

HI'm new here, but looking at the policies, although it says no html/rtf
Kemail, I don't think that excludes any html code at all. I think its a bit
Lmuch to ask a list about code of a few hundred people to stop writing about
their code in some context.
Jperhaps the problem is in the AOL client rendering html when it shouldn't
4be? (are you set to receive Plain or MIME content?)

please correct me if I'm wrong
Jperhaps I need more clarity on the policy. should I exclude all html when
I'm next tempted to post?

-jim
T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [69]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:30:24 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
7Message-ID: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

MDoes anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can change
the list-item-marker's color?

JI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

Anyone?

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [70]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:31:20 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ken Martin wrote:
I> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

B(Apologies if someone has answered this, my email is slow lately)

ANo support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
,<http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
&<http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
>From Dwayne.Conyers at veridian.com  Fri Apr 25 16:41:46 2003
7From: Dwayne.Conyers at veridian.com (Conyers, Dwayne)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:41:46 -0400
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
FMessage-ID: <E4C14A1BFBDD144490EAF53424176D6D11CF46@FCVAMAIL.mrj.com>

HI think enclosing code in <pre></pre> tags should alleviate that issue.

--
Dwacon
www.dwacon.com
<From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 25 16:46:49 2003
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:46:49 +0000
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F69qVDokSUIwMw0000d806@hotmail.com>

H> > Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
> >
> >   width: auto;
> >   padding: 2px;
> >
B> > Remove them and all's well with the world, include either and
$> > it generates errors and closes.
>
I>You can remove "width: auto" safely (unless a width is being inherited)
*>and/or you can use Caio's Hack, like so:

LWhile that is certainly true, my guess is that the border declarations are 
Iactually the problem. NN4 has a long and nasty history of problems with 
	borders.

7Try your original style sheet, but change the borders:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
  background-color: #FFE;
  border: 1px solid #EEE;
  border-bottom-color: #333;
  border-right-color:  #777;
}

GIn a few similar cases I found that using the shorthand notations for 
L'border-left', 'border-right' etc. (though not for 'border' itself) causes 
NN4 problems.

?But maybe I'm wrong and this is an entirely different problem.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
;MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
)http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
T13:43:45.190 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [71]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:47:11 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
,Message-ID: <199.194e6936.2bdab27f@aol.com>

NIn a message dated 4/25/2003 11:17:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, jgay@tla.com 
writes:


5>be? (are you set to receive Plain or MIME content?)


DI only use AOL for a connection to the Internet and to receive mail
Aso I really don't no how to set that, or even if I can with AOL.

 >please correct me if I'm wrong
K>perhaps I need more clarity on the policy. should I exclude all html when
>I'm next tempted to post?

HNo, the tags that effect my mail are heading, bold, italics, typewriter
Ktype, paragraphs, break, and such that refer specifically to font control.

IUL, li, span, div, and others that refer to structure and css don't get 

rendered.
(I see the tag itself, not it's effects.

JBy the way, I didn't type the subject line. My brother did. I don't write
Ksubjects until I ready to send the mail. He tried to replicate the subject
Elines of the css mail program and didnt know it was do automatically
( thought it was funny)

Curt
7From gary at star-chaser.com  Fri Apr 25 17:01:57 2003
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:57 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
AIn-Reply-To: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>
@References: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA95BF5.4040005@star-chaser.com>

Ken Martin wrote:
H> I checked the wiki and didn't see anything, though I suspect this is 
> probably frequently asked.
> 
L> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if I 
L> need to use it in tandem with other declarations or if it simply doesn't 
> work.
> 

HIt only supports position:fixed on backgrounds. You can get it to work 
in two ways.

Javascript
*http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html

conditional comments
"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

HTH
Gary

-- 
Gary Bland
StarChaser Web Architecture
http://www.star-chaser.com
 Building Tomorrow's World Today

The Nemesis Project
http://nemesis1.f2o.org
One Stop CSS
T13:43:45.191 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [72]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:04:44 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
6Message-ID: <556DFCA4.3DC753BE.009CE500@netscape.net>

("Jason Estes" <ckestes@bewb.org> wrote:

P>Does anyone know, I didn't see it in �the CSS spec, if or how you can change
>the list-item-marker's color?

WHi Jason - Did you try setting the color for the unordered list and/or the list items?
ul, li {color: #800080}

/My quick test worked on IE6, Moz and Op7 WinXP

HTH,

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
3From dmead at optiem.com  Fri Apr 25 17:02:56 2003
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:02:56 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E928E@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

FI achieved the effect I think you're after by calling the marker as a
graphic in my CSS file:=20

*   list-style-image: url(images/dot.gif);

Hope this helps.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
,From: Jason Estes [mailto:ckestes@bewb.org]
&Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:30 AM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color


FDoes anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can
change
the list-item-marker's color?

DI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my
text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

Anyone?

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
<From asparber at projectseven.com  Fri Apr 25 17:09:03 2003
0From: asparber at projectseven.com (Al Sparber)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:09:03 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
3Message-ID: <004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL>


Here're a couple more:
Ehttp://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
problematic on Mac)

Bhttp://www.flevooware.nl/dreamweaver/#PersistentLayers (scripted)

Al Sparber
?http://www.projectseven.com - Extensions | DW FAQs | Tutorials
9Co-Author: Dreamweaver MX: Building on Solid Foundations



From: "Saila, Craig"

Ken Martin wrote:
I> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

B(Apologies if someone has answered this, my email is slow lately)

ANo support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
,<http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
&<http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>


T13:43:45.191 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [73]
=================
<From: Jason.Gennaro at jus.gov.on.ca (Gennaro, Jason (JUS))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:09:52 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
DMessage-ID: <419FB3B69D66D311AC120008C79138C0169906BD@JUS00AEX0315>


7On Friday, April 25, 2003 11:30 AM, Jason Estes wrote:

	<sniped>

JI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.


4Add the color to the ul and that should work, i.e.:

ul { color: blue }

,Worked for me in Moz 1.3 and IE 5.5 on W.2K

Jason
	
/From jgay at tla.com  Fri Apr 25 17:16:02 2003
 From: jgay at tla.com (Jim Gay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:16:02 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
8In-Reply-To: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
)Message-ID: <BACED782.692F%jgay@tla.com>

O> Does anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can change
 > the list-item-marker's color?
> 
L> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
;> but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
> 

2http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#lists

Iyou can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
Icorresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image
T13:43:45.191 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [74]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:16:25 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
6Message-ID: <0CC778E0.33459481.009CE500@netscape.net>

%Ken Martin <ken@kpmartin.com> wrote:

$>Does PC IE support position:fixed?

8"Saila, Craig" <Craig.Saila@bgminteractive.com> wrote: 

B>No support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
-><http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
'><http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

�Hi Ken - In addition to Craig's JavaScript suggestions there is a way to emulate position: fixed for IE. It's been called the Bednarz hack or the Ghost hack. See -
"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

HTH,

~holly 

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Fri Apr 25 17:30:11 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:30:11 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
)References: <BACED782.692F%jgay@tla.com>
7Message-ID: <006e01c30b47$f1ed2520$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

K> you can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
K> corresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image
> 

=Technically I guess you could if you did something like this

B<li style="color:red"><span style="color:#000;">sdaf </span></li>

1then you end up with red bullets and black text.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org 

T13:43:45.191 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [75]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:18:54 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
8In-Reply-To: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
7References: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
4Message-ID: <116106318348.20030425111854@attbi.com>

6Jason wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 10:30:24 AM:

G> Does anyone know, I didn't see it in the CSS spec, if or how you can
'> change the list-item-marker's color?

F> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my
A> text, but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

#If you're using generated content:

    li:before{color:#000}

DOtherwise I'd need to check. It may be unspecified, or it may match
Dthe list-item's color. I don't think there's a special way of doing
it, though.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.191 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [76]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
AIn-Reply-To: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
LMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304250930390.2597-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

*On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Gavin Kistner wrote:

F> Forgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the
>> browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
2> http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

HThe 'default' value is pretty loose, such that actually pretty much all
the renderings are correct.

EHowever, having said that, the intention of the Mozilla guys is that
F'default' use the font's specified default line height, which I don't
Fthink works correctly on Mac (I know it doesn't work exactly right on

Windows).

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
3From cs03 at combonet.se  Fri Apr 25 17:35:51 2003
(From: cs03 at combonet.se (Christina S)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:35:51 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
.Message-ID: <BACF3018.53804%cs03@combonet.se>

JOn 03-04-25 17.31, "Saila, Craig" <Craig.Saila@bgminteractive.com> wrote:

> Ken Martin wrote:
J>> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

C> No support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
.> <http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
(> <http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

 Or with a nice little css-hack:
$<http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/>
Works as a charm.

DI think it is linked somewhere from the css-wiki? (or it should be)
 
/Christina
T13:43:45.191 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [77]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:41:51 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
7In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>
6References: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>
3Message-ID: <p05210607bacf10e7b3c7@[152.3.174.98]>

>>Interesting!
I>>Especially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
#>>dramatically increase later on).
>
B>My Safari stats are especially unreliable because I posted some 
C>Safari-related material pretty soon after the beta was released. 
E>Naturally geeky Safari users first take a look at sites discussing 
>their beloved browser.
>
E>For the non-geeky sites I keep track of the score is between 2 and 
=>10 % of all Mac users (and I find that 10% strangely high).

GI work in academia with folks who are geeky, but not necessarily in a 
Gweb browser sort of way, but who are mostly Mac users.  Among the Mac 
Dpeople, a very large majority use IE 5 - about 72%, at last count. 
DThese are about evenly divided between 5.2+ on OSX and all others. 
>The next highest is NN4, at a scary 9%.  Safari has recently 
@overtaken gecko-based, with some early adopters giving me a 7% 
Dreading, while all geckos (NN6, NN7, all Mozillas and derivatives) 
=are another 6%.  IE4 has just 1%, and all others (including 
Cunidentified) account for the rest.  I have had exactly one Opera 
	visitor.

FAll this is after subtracting my own hits in development and all the 
AWindows people, including the hackers trying to get root.exe or 
Bcmd.exe to do something on my Mac server.  (Which always sort of 
makes me chuckle.)

-- 

-Adam Kuehn
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Fri Apr 25 17:57:25 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:57:25 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
DReferences: <419FB3B69D66D311AC120008C79138C0169906BD@JUS00AEX0315>
7Message-ID: <008c01c30b4b$bfe56340$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
;> but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
>
>
6> Add the color to the ul and that should work, i.e.:
>
> ul { color: blue }
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> Supported by evolt

KThanks for all the response, I got it from Holly first so I'll credit her,
/but really it was just my own stupid overlook.

KAnd to respond to this last one, technically the only reason that works is
Kcause the [li] inherits the color, but you can control the li individually
by adding the color to the li


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
1.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

T13:43:45.191 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [78]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:55:11 -0700
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
CMessage-ID: <OF2A66C6B4.16E163EC-ON88256D13.005C9BE6@capgroup.com>


Jim Gay wrote:

> Jason Estes wrote:
>
F> > Does anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you
-> > can change the list-item-marker's color?
> >
E> > I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of
F> > my text, but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
> >
>
4> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#lists
>
K> you can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
K> corresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image

JHate to say it, but it sounds like the easiest (albeit messier) way to do
Jit is to span/div content inside of the li tags to override the colors...

MikeL
T13:43:45.191 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [79]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:24:28 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <ae.3e6bab30.2bdac94c@aol.com>

@In a message dated 4/25/2003 1:23:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
$Dwayne.Conyers@veridian.com writes:


> 
> 
8> I think enclosing code in tags should alleviate that 
	> issue.
> 
> --
	> Dwacon
> www.dwacon.com
> 
T13:43:45.191 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [80]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:13:51 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
A	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304250930390.2597-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
2Message-ID: <009e01c30b56$6caf59f0$6401a8c0@yoda>

,> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Gavin Kistner wrote:
>
H> > Forgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the
@> > browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
4> > http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

OAs you've learned, the default line-height is determined by the UA with the W3
Irecommendation that it be between a factor of 1 to 1.2 of the font-size.

HTo override the default UA treatment, you can simply set your preferred
Pline-height in the ICB of the document and let the cascade naturally adjust. Be
Laware though, that you should set line-heights as a factor rather than in a
specific unit. For example,

html, body {
Kfont-size: 16px /*I'm not promoting fixed sizes, just making an example.*/
line-height: 18px;
}

Nwill be problematic when your long unstylyed <h1> wraps - effectively doing a
Qfont-size of about 2x the default (32px) but cascading the 18px line-height. The
Bwrapped lines are going to overlap. However, if you use a factor,

html, body {
Kfont-size: 16px /*I'm not promoting fixed sizes, just making an example.*/
line-height: 1.2;
}

Kthe line-height will cascade appropriately for in each descendent element.

"So, if on your test page, you use

.col1 p {line-height:1;}
.col2 p {line-height:1.1;}
.col3 p {line-height:1.2;}

,you'll find much better x-browser behavior.

Lonnie
T13:43:45.191 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [81]
=================
3From: marc.richards at verizon.net (Marc Richards)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:53:44 -0400
@Subject: [css-d] Mozilla isn't pulling css pages from the cache
MIn-Reply-To: <20030403112504.PVKS1042.mta018.verizon.net@acornparenting.org>
4Message-ID: <000201c30b5b$ff8658f0$0100000a@diablo>

Hi,

@I have been doing some testing recently that involved careful =
examination of
Imy http headers. I have noticed that Mozilla ALWAYS gets a fresh copy of
Eexternal CSS pages (both imported and linked) when navigating thru =
various
Fweb pages (zeldman.com, centricle.com, my own internal site).  This =
	seems to
Hgo against one of the major benefits of CSS (less bandwidth).  I tested
Iusing Internet Explorer 6 and it caches the pages just fine. Has any one
Delse noticed this?  I am using Mozilla 1.3 on windows XP with the =
default
cache settings.

Marc=20

T13:43:45.191 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [82]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:28:00 -0500
Subject: [css-d] 
G Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?)
7In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
6References: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA98C40.3000802@cookiecrook.com>

Peter-Paul Koch wrote:
> 
I> Any Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and 

> Safari.

HSpeaking of which, the meetup.com website styles dreadfully in Safari, 
Hso it kind of throws an ironic wrench at the web standards meetup idea 
,doesn't it? http://webstandards.meetup.com/

GAlso, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is 
Dcancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so 
Iprematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas and 
Gstill want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll 
Jarrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may be 
 interested in an Austin meetup.

Cheers,
James Craig

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:45.192 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [83]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:17:57 -0500
FSubject: [css-d]  Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats for
	browsers on Mac?)
6References: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
$	<3EA98C40.3000802@cookiecrook.com>
7Message-ID: <00e301c30b67$c3454660$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

> 
I> Also, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is 
F> cancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so 
K> prematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas and 
I> still want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll 
L> arrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may be 
"> interested in an Austin meetup.
> 

> Cheers,
> James Craig


LAt least you have people in Austin signed up for the webstandards.meetup.  

8I am the only person in Fort Worth signed up for it. :(

	OH well!


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org 

T13:43:45.192 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [84]
=================
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:31:57 -0400
'Subject: [css-d]  Web Standards Meetup
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A28FECC@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

BI came across this on Mr Craig's web site and decided to join the
8Cleveland one only to see the next day it cancelled :-(

6Maybe the web developers one will be better attended.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
,From: Jason Estes [mailto:ckestes@bewb.org]
%Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:18 PM
To: James Craig; 'CSS-discuss'
ESubject: Re: [css-d] Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats
forbrowsers on Mac?)


>=20
K> Also, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is=20
H> cancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so=20
F> prematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas
and=20
K> still want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll=20
H> arrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may
be=20
"> interested in an Austin meetup.
>=20

> Cheers,
> James Craig


5At least you have people in Austin signed up for the
webstandards.meetup. =20

8I am the only person in Fort Worth signed up for it. :(

	OH well!


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org=20


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
4From daniel at ionize.net  Fri Apr 25 22:06:01 2003
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:06:01 -0500
0Subject: [css-d] Help w/ IE Mac disappearing ID
>Message-ID: <B8088CA6-7761-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

Hi,

FI have been busy on a project that is almost done, but I find myself 
+deeply in need of some expertise and help.

HI'm trying to finish up a site now at: http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/

One issue remains, however:

HIn IE4, (and IE5) on the Mac (OS 9), I'm getting reports that the logo 
Iin the top left is not appearing. Unfortunately, I don't have access to 
Gan OS 9 box to test. (I tried installing it, but my monitor-- yes, my 
Gmonitor-- prevented me from doing so). In my copy of IE5 Mac on OS X, 
it renders correctly.

ICan someone w/ IE 4 or IE 5 running under OS 9 confirm that the logo is 
=not appearing? Does anyone know why this would be happening?

6The xhtml/css validates, but it *is* a tabled design.


The goods:

6default style sheet (setting #logo to display: none):
4http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/default.css
E	- I *did* try removing the link to this stylesheet and the problem 
	persists
.global style sheet that sets styles for #logo
3http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/global.css
H	- This stylesheet is linked to using imports in the second stylesheet 
Flinked (import.css). I know that the IEs in question are getting the 
Gglobal stylesheet, however, because other styles from it are rendered 
correctly.

thanks,
-daniel
T13:43:45.192 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [85]
=================
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:21:42 -0500
0Subject: [css-d] Help w/ IE Mac disappearing ID
?In-Reply-To: <B8088CA6-7761-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>
>Message-ID: <E9393B98-7763-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

!Sorry, I left out the directory:

> The goods:
>
6> http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/default.css

<http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/_library/styles/default.css

5> http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/global.css

;http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/_library/styles/global.css
T13:43:45.239 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [86]
=================
0From: valleyofmalls at yahoo.com (David Norris)
,Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:31:36 -0700 (PDT)
7Subject: [css-d] image float right issues in IE5.5 win
AMessage-ID: <20030425213136.54351.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>

�I have sliced up an image and floated it right inside a table using the method here http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/raggedfloat/demo.html I'm using the style code as follows on my slices:img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 0 0 0;} (I have enough white space on the sliced images that I don't need to add any margin for the text wrap) Looks fine it seems everywhere except IE5.5 windows, not sure about mac. In IE 5.5 there's some space between the images and the right edge of the table so it won't meet up with the edge. But if I add some negative px or em to the right margin it looks fine in IE 5.5, the image goes flush to the edge. example: img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -3px 0 0;} img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -1em 0 0;}  Is there an IE 5.5 hack or something for this?  


"---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
fThe New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.From holnkids at netscape.net  Fri Apr 25 23:26:08 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:26:08 -0400
7Subject: [css-d] image float right issues in IE5.5 win
6Message-ID: <0DC0F06E.2A589CC0.009CE500@netscape.net>

.David Norris <valleyofmalls@yahoo.com> wrote:

�>I have sliced up an image and floated it right inside a table using the method here http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/raggedfloat/demo.html I'm using the style code as follows on my slices:img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 0 0 0;} (I have enough white space on the sliced images that I don't need to add any margin for the text wrap) Looks fine it seems everywhere except IE5.5 windows, not sure about mac. In IE 5.5 there's some space between the images and the right edge of the table so it won't meet up with the edge. But if I add some negative px or em to the right margin it looks fine in IE 5.5, the image goes flush to the edge. example: img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -3px 0 0;} img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -1em 0 0;} �Is there an IE 5.5 hack or something for this? 

�Hi David - If you know it is only IE5.5 (and not IE6 also) that is doing this, you can use the Tan hack [1] to feed the negative right margin to IE5.5 which would look like this -

img.slices {
    float: right; 
    clear: right; 
8    margin: 0; /* Margin settings for most browsers */ 
    }

B* html img.slices { /*Only IE browsers see this (including Mac)*/
2    margin-right: -3px; /* Set value for IE5.5 */
<    ma\rgin-right: 0; /* Reset value for IE6 and IE5-Mac */
    }

�Otherwise (if IE6 needs the negative margin as well), try setting the "incorrect" value in the regular selector and use the child selector to reset it for the other browsers -

img.slices {
    float: right; 
    clear: right; 
    margin: 0 -3px 0 0; 
    }

)html>body img.slices {margin-right: 0; }

HTH,

~holly

[1] See: "A Modified SBMH" -
7     http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BoxModelHack

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
9From fortuneb at bellsouth.net  Fri Apr 25 23:38:11 2003
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:38:11 -0400
Subject: [css-d] site check
AReferences: <002101c30a3e$21449a20$97a4d742@charterpipeline.net>
*	<009e01c30a40$9dec4e40$73163d0a@sdig.fr>
6Message-ID: <00a801c30b7b$5a454d40$6001a8c0@felwithe>

Bnot diggin the techno on the home page. cool music, but annoying.


> ----- Original Message -----
%> From: "Ian Adams" <icadams@pe.net>
>
L> I am updating the code for my site to a standards compliant xhtml/css and
M> cannot get the style to view in Netscape 7.  The syle views fine in IE and
J> the site validates every way I can think of to test it.  The address is
> http://www.microtech.com
>
>
T13:43:45.239 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [87]
=================
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:40:10 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
6Message-ID: <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>

2can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
4From gleemax at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 23:49:00 2003
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:49:00 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7In-Reply-To: <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
References: 
J <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+ <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
4Message-ID: <151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>

6Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:

4> can you have more then one media="all" on a page?

BYes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
>media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,

G<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" media="all">
E<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [88]
=================
,From: epersonae at mail.com (Elaine Nelson)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:03:30 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] site check - esp. on Mac?
1Message-ID: <20030425230331.9939.qmail@mail.com>

(http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/test/pioneer/
*(links don't work, this is only a mockup)

�I've checked it on Moz 1.2.1, IE 6, Netscape 4.something and Opera 6 (all win2K), and am reasonably satisfied with the results. It's been validated all round, and passed. :)  

�Minimal style is fed to old browsers, with additional stuff for the more modern crowd.  I decided to go for the XML prolog to force IE6 into non-strict mode so I could keep using body>#whatever selectors rather than some other hack...I don't know if this causes problems elsewhere....

MA check from Mac users would be especially helpful!  Thanks for your time...

Elaine Nelson
 work: http://www.pierce.ctc.edu
"notWork: http://www.epersonae.com

-- 
;__________________________________________________________
:Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [89]
=================
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:10:17 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] site check - esp. on Mac?
2In-Reply-To: <20030425230331.9939.qmail@mail.com>
>Message-ID: <1474BED5-7773-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

HOn Friday, Apr 25, 2003, at 18:03 America/Chicago, Elaine Nelson wrote:

*> http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/test/pioneer/
,> (links don't work, this is only a mockup)


Looking Good Mac Side:

[OS X]

Moz
IE 5.2
Safari
T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [90]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:56:20 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
6Message-ID: <46F927D0.13623D7A.009CE500@netscape.net>

css-discuss@plumlee.org wrote:

)>At 01:00 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>
,> >>If I try to place an image in the right
O> >>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6. �IE
9> >>refuses to display the content in that third column.

$>http://wgi.org/2003/indexmac2.php 

`Hi Scott - I played around some more with your example and found a few more interesting things.

�It seems putting a top border on the div.column-three-content will kill the problem without using the float, as long as the image is wrapped inside something else. You could put it in another div, or a paragraph, either one seemed to work. 

�What I did was give the div.column-three-content a {border-top: 1px solid #6666ff;} which is the same color as the background of the column. I then gave each of the other div.column-xxx-content a top border the same color as their backgrounds, and 1px high to balance things between the columns. This works great in the example you provided.

�Unfortunately, what you will find if you put content in the middle div is that the image gets pushed below the bottom of the content level of the middle div, though it still does display. 

�Another thing I tried which IE6 is okay with but Moz and Op aren't is to give the image a margin property that looks like img {margin: 0 -3px;} IE6 happily centers the image and displays it, too. Unfortunately, Moz and Op drag the thing to the left 3px. You can use a child selector to reset the margin value for the other browsers - html>body img {margin: 0;}

�I'm afraid this is going to be a case of pick your hack. The float one isn't that bad, especially if the image is going to take up the entire width of that right side div and since you said it isn't causing problems for Moz and Op7.  

�So after all this, my suggestion is to go with the float. It seems the easiest way to deal with the various problems that are encountered. Be aware that if you need to put content in the right div *before* the image, the image will disappear again, even with the float. This time it's hiding behind the background, so add [img] to the selector that has the {p\osition: relative;} property. If you don't want a background on the right div, you won't need the pos:rel.

+In brief, my suggestion looks like this - 

.box-wrap, .columns-float, 
.column-one, .column-two, 
.h2, .column-three, img {p\osition: relative;}

img { float: left;}

K>I appreciate the advice.  I think I might have a "immovable object meets 
?>the irresistible force" complex about this problem right now.

�I'm not sure which one of those is you and which is IE6, but I do agree this is a frustrating problem, and one that is going to require the application of a(nother) hack to solve. 

+Not sure I was much help this time, sorry,

~holly


C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
7From ehmer at pacific.net.au  Sat Apr 26 06:00:43 2003
5From: ehmer at pacific.net.au (David & Angela Ehmer)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:00:43 +1000
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem
3Message-ID: <005301c30bb0$cca941e0$5bf88fcb@ehmer>

HI have developed a horizontal menu system which works okay except that;

GExtra space appears below the horizontal menu, both when the dropdowns
Jappear and when they don't.  Not sure where this is coming from or how to
Ieliminate it. Think it may be related to the cumulative space the 3 drop
Kdowns take up.  Also the menus appear a bit touchy and disappear sometimes
3when they shouldn't (probably Javascript problem!)

MNote, I have used relative positioning as I want the page to be centred on a
$screen with resolution of 1024x768.

%Appreciate any suggestions.  See URL

,http://www.netnoise.com.au/acpchn/index.php

David
T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [91]
=================
1From: mark.r.stevens at attbi.com (markinoregon)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:20:19 -0700
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem
4In-Reply-To: <005301c30bb0$cca941e0$5bf88fcb@ehmer>
DMessage-ID: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAGEGICAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>


AYeah, the menu's are touchy here on XP/IE6 Broadband connection,
Ealso i noticed your australian map, on the right side of the header,
#is a few pixels off from the text.
-----Original Message-----
*From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org
H[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org]On Behalf Of David & Angela
Ehmer
&Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 10:01 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem


HI have developed a horizontal menu system which works okay except that;

GExtra space appears below the horizontal menu, both when the dropdowns
Jappear and when they don't.  Not sure where this is coming from or how to
Ieliminate it. Think it may be related to the cumulative space the 3 drop
Kdowns take up.  Also the menus appear a bit touchy and disappear sometimes
3when they shouldn't (probably Javascript problem!)

MNote, I have used relative positioning as I want the page to be centred on a
$screen with resolution of 1024x768.

%Appreciate any suggestions.  See URL

,http://www.netnoise.com.au/acpchn/index.php

David

G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [92]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:51:53 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C2348@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

H> I work in academia with folks who are geeky, but not necessarily in a
H> web browser sort of way, but who are mostly Mac users.  Among the Mac
E> people, a very large majority use IE 5 - about 72%, at last count.
E> These are about evenly divided between 5.2+ on OSX and all others.
?> The next highest is NN4, at a scary 9%.  Safari has recently
A> overtaken gecko-based, with some early adopters giving me a 7%
E> reading, while all geckos (NN6, NN7, all Mozillas and derivatives)
>> are another 6%.  IE4 has just 1%, and all others (including
F> unidentified) account for the rest.  I have had exactly one Opera =
	visitor.

=20
Thanks Adam,
=20
*I find this very interesting information!
&And yes, 9% with NS4 is really scary!
=20
=20
/Robert
=20
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Sat Apr 26 12:48:09 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:48:09 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <1051268977.6929@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051357689.16411@tweek.sebduggan.com>



<>> I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
C>> whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
<>> the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:
> 
O> Very nice Steve - this seems to be the most elegant solution so far - and it
4> seems to work in every browser I've thrown it at!
> 
*> I'll be changing my own code to this...

Final word on this...

GI tested my page on a friend's Linux box, on Konqueror. Unfortunately,
LKonqueror currently only supports white-space:pre for PRE and XMP elements.
LHowever, even the earlier beta of Safari handles it correctly, so it should
1find its way in to the KHTML source fairly soon.

F(Also, it wasn't a disastrous mis-rendering - and Konqueror users are
6probably a very small minority of my site's traffic).


Seb

T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [93]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:24:43 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] Quick thank you
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426112216.00ba3028@cbiweb.com>

MJust wanted to say thanks to those who gave me suggestions the other day on 
Imaking lists with mixed styles. I haven't been able to try them out yet 
Lbecause I got distracted with another project. But I will let you know how 
$it works out when I get back to it.

Thanks!

Joel
T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [94]
=================
=From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rick_Hurst?=)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:21:10 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
EMessage-ID: <mailman.163.1051374077.541.css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>

Nfor some reason this layout is missing the left border when displayed in IE5=
N mac=2E The odd thing is that the space has been left for the border, but no=
> colour is showing=2E Any ideas why, or how I might fix it=3F

7http://www=2Ehypothecate=2Eco=2Euk/css=5Ftest/v8=2Ehtm


T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [95]
=================
.From: steven at sjknet.com (Steven Kallstrom)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:47:17 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
2Message-ID: <000e01c30c13$829c7730$6401a8c0@MAIN>

CSS Experts,

:	I am working on a layout where I have a large graphic as
Fbackground, and menu.  I don't want to reload that since it is static
Dthroughout, so I decided to just make it so that I would reload the
content area.

%http://12.221.231.252/test/test.html

F1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
HCSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
Hto do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
4in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?

F2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
Iusing an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the content inside
Hthe div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
Ffile...  I wish they had something like <div src="page"> sort of like
Aiframes, but you are simply change what is inbetween the divs...

what do you think?

Thanks a ton,

Steven J. Kallstrom

T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [96]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:50:21 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>

KIf this has been asked recently, I apologize for the repeat. Feel free to 
%direct me to the thread if you like.

JI've been doing some testing with ems and %'s. I like the versatility of 
Iboth, but which is better in today's browser compatibility climate? I'm 
Hconcerned mostly about consistent results while avoiding the tiny text 
Lsyndrome that can occur on a Mac. (I don't have a Mac, so all my design is 
PC oriented.)

LMy main goal is to design with less-than-default-size text, but still give 
0users the ability to change it if they want to.

TIA,

Joel
T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [97]
=================
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:55:04 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+	<00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
)	<151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>
6Message-ID: <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>

#can you have more then one import?


----- Original Message ----- 
'From: "John Lewis" <gleemax@attbi.com>
"To: <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
%Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 6:49 PM
-Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import


8> Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:
> 
6> > can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
> 
D> Yes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
@> media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,
> 
I> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" media="all">
G> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">
> 
> -- 
> John Lewis
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
;From matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com  Sat Apr 26 19:52:00 2003
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:52:00 +0100
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
7Message-ID: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>

'http://blogstreetjournal.com/index.php

MWorks fine in all win browsers I've been able to download, no Mac, and Linux
Ktill I get a spare day, so if any one with either of these platforms could
'check it for me, I'd be most grateful.

Matt

-- 

Khttp://unitedheroes.net/blogs/matt/ - usually updated, occasionally funny,
sometimes even informative!
T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [98]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:28 +0100
1Subject: FW:RE:  [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7Message-ID: <000d01c30c25$6ac11d70$0100007f@localhost>

Not sent to the list.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:48 PM
To: 'Brandy (mediadiva)'
-Subject: RE: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import


I don't think so . . .

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
<}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of 
}Brandy (mediadiva)
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 6:55 PM
-}To: John Lewis; css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
.}Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
}
}
$}can you have more then one import?
}
}
}----- Original Message ----- 
(}From: "John Lewis" <gleemax@attbi.com>
#}To: <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
&}Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 6:49 PM
.}Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
}
}
9}> Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:
}> 
7}> > can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
}> 
E}> Yes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
A}> media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,
}> 
>}> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" 
}media="all">
H}> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">
}> 
}> -- 
}> John Lewis
}> 
}> 
H}______________________________________________________________________
-}> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
5}> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
F}> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

T13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [99]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:57 +0100
%Subject: FW: [css-d] ems or percent?
7Message-ID: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>

Damn outlook.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:45 PM
To: 'Joel Young'
%Subject: RE: [css-d] ems or percent?


Joel,

HThe way I've found to use these (and avoid the broken box model as much
;as possible) it to decale the follwing in you style sheet:

body {
	font-size: 100%;
}

P (or your divs or whatever) {
	font-size: 0.8em;
	line-height: 1.166667em;
}

DThis give you the equivalent of 12px font sizing, and a 17.5px line
height.

CThe body { font-size: 100%; } should avoid it inheriting, as would
Eexplicitly declaring all tags you use with { font-size:0.8em; } This
Fworks in every windows browser that I've been able to find a download
?for, though I don't own to a mac, so I don't know about those.

"For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.

Matt

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
F}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Joel Young
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 6:50 PM
!}To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
"}Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
}
}
?}If this has been asked recently, I apologize for the repeat. 
}Feel free to 
&}direct me to the thread if you like.
}
<}I've been doing some testing with ems and %'s. I like the 
}versatility of 
=}both, but which is better in today's browser compatibility 
}climate? I'm 
I}concerned mostly about consistent results while avoiding the tiny text 
@}syndrome that can occur on a Mac. (I don't have a Mac, so all 
}my design is 
}PC oriented.)
}
>}My main goal is to design with less-than-default-size text, 
}but still give 
1}users the ability to change it if they want to.
}
}TIA,
}
}Joel
}
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

U13:43:45.240 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [100]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:54:58 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7In-Reply-To: <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>
References: 
J <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+ <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
) <151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>
+ <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>
4Message-ID: <148201738897.20030426135458@attbi.com>

9Brandy wrote on Saturday, April 26, 2003 at 12:55:04 PM:

%> can you have more then one import?

CYes, with the caveat that all @import rules must appear before all
(other rules. For example, this is okay:

    @import "main.css";
    @import "print.css" print;
    h1{font-size:3em}

DAlso, keep in mind that an imported style sheet without a specified
Fmedia, like the first rule in the above example, has an implied media

of "all".

-- 
John Lewis
U13:43:45.241 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [101]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:42 +0100
,Subject: FW: [css-d] inline frame border...
7Message-ID: <000e01c30c25$6fead4d0$0100007f@localhost>

And again.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:47 PM
To: 'Steven Kallstrom'
,Subject: RE: [css-d] inline frame border...


EBest of my knowledge, only framesets (urgh) or iframes will give you
Dthis action. Don't know how to remove the IE iframe border with CSS
though.

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
<}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of 
}Steven Kallstrom
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 5:47 PM
}To: 'CSS List'
)}Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
}
}
}CSS Experts,
}
;}	I am working on a layout where I have a large graphic as
G}background, and menu.  I don't want to reload that since it is static
E}throughout, so I decided to just make it so that I would reload the
}content area.
}
&}http://12.221.231.252/test/test.html
}
G}1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
I}CSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
I}to do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
5}in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?
}
G}2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
<}using an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the 
}content inside
I}the div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
G}file...  I wish they had something like <div src="page"> sort of like
B}iframes, but you are simply change what is inbetween the divs...
}
}what do you think?
}
}Thanks a ton,
}
}Steven J. Kallstrom
}
}
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

U13:43:45.247 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [102]
=================
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:02:49 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
2References: <000e01c30c13$829c7730$6401a8c0@MAIN>
8Message-ID: <005701c30c26$6e5d1370$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

H| 1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
J| CSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
J| to do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
6| in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?

BNot that I know of. This has been a complaint since IE3. In fact,
>IFRAMEs in IE have other default attributes that override any
2CSS property, sometimes with nasty consequences. 


H| 2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
K| using an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the content inside
J| the div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
| file... 


@No again. You may want to experiment using the OBJECT tag. For 
0instance, this works in IE5/Win and Netscape 7:

B<object data="another.htm" type="text/html" id="yourID"></object>

ENote that the object tag must be given an explicit height and width,
Deither as attributes or thru the CSS. Note also that here again, IE
insists on a border.

Brett


U13:43:45.247 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [103]
=================
RFrom: info at brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk (Brighton Freelance Web Design)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:21:56 +0100
2Subject: [css-d] How to center an image using CSS
WMessage-ID: <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>


Hi there,

8I'm trying to center the image at the top of this page.

Ahttp://www.brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk/szoo/template.htm

using the following code.

.logo {
	width: 333px;
	margin-right: auto;
	margin-left: auto;
	margin-bottom: 55px;
	text-align: center;
}

*It works on IE5.5 Mac but not on IE6 Win.

BAny ideas how I can get it to center on the most common browsers?

Andy
U13:43:45.247 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [104]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:23:50 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
7References: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
"Message-ID: <3EAADCC6.C4A@ij.net>

Matthew Davey wrote:
 
J> The way I've found to use these (and avoid the broken box model as much
=> as possible) it to decale the follwing in you style sheet:
 
	> body {
>         font-size: 100%;
> }
 
!> P (or your divs or whatever) {
>         font-size: 0.8em;
#>         line-height: 1.166667em;
> }
 
3> This give you the equivalent of 12px font sizing

G.8em gives a little over a half size character box on a system that is
Iusing the windoze common default of 12pt/16px@96DPI. (144 dot box vs 256
dot box; 56.25%).
 
$> For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.

FFor what reference? 15px=1em if and only if the default size is 15px,
Gwhich is not the default case for any browser as a virgin installation
Gon any virgin PC OS. Netscape 4, IE6 & Mozilla/Netscape 6+ all default
Eto 16px/12pt. Windoze defaults to 96DPI. For IE6 you can see the few
;instances where 15px would be the default in the charts at
;http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.247 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [105]
=================
(From: knaepkens.luc at pandora.be (Luc)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:28:28 +0200
%Subject: FW: [css-d] ems or percent?
8In-Reply-To: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
7References: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
4Message-ID: <12423476367.20030426212828@pandora.be>

Good evening Matthew,  
    

AIt was foretold that on 26-4-2003 @ 19:55:57 GMT+0100 (which was
320:55:57 where I live) Matthew Davey would mumble:

<snipped a bit>

&MD> For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.
  
GMatthew,  how  do  you  get  that value of 15px? In your example there
/aren't  any  px set, only 100% (body) and ems.

GI  thought  that  the  'em'  unit  equals  the  computed  value of the
G'font-size'  property  of the element on which it is used, except when
Git  occurs  in  the  value of the 'font-size' property itself. In that
7case it refers to the font size of the parent element.

;Or am i missing something fundamental here? (probably yes)
 
Best regards,
 Luc

---------------------------------------------
APowered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build
E2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera.

G"Men were made for war. Without it they wandered greyly about, getting
Dunder the feet of the women, who were trying to organize the really
0important things of life." - Alice Thomas Ellis
---------------------------------------------











U13:43:45.247 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [106]
=================
'From: david at lenef.com (David Lenef)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:44:00 -0500
,Subject: [css-d] Disappearing Div on Mac IE
;Message-ID: <NFBBKJNGEDABMFKHCIFEAECKEAAA.david@lenef.com>

!http://Lenef.com/elite/prodtest/
:(Don't bother clicking the button - it doesn't work yet.)

KPlease refer to the above page on which I'm testing a product page layout.
KOn NetMechanic's Browser Photo, the right-hand content div does not appear
Kin Mac IE 5.0 screenshots, and most of it is way off the right edge of the
viewport on Mac IE 4.5.

EIt's supposed to be a 2-column layout with photos down the left side
I(float:left) and text specs on the right (margin-left used to create the
Kright column effect and stay out of the way of the photos). Style sheet is
Lembedded in the page. Any ideas what I need to do to accommodate Mac users?

FIt will eventually be dropped into a container div on the final page.

K(BTW, Mac users represent a miniscule portion of this site's audience, but
Hif one arrives at the page, they need to at least see the information.)

David Lenef
david@lenef.com
http://Lenef.com

U13:43:45.247 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [107]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:48:17 -0400
2Subject: [css-d] How to center an image using CSS
XIn-Reply-To: <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>
References: 
L <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>
6Message-ID: <63-1549435046.20030426154817@mrclay.org>

6Saturday, April 26, 2003, 3:21:56 PM, Brighton wrote:
>BFWD> I'm trying to center the image at the top of this page.
GBFWD> http://www.brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk/szoo/template.htm

ADrop the width and l/r margins on .logo.  It will expand to 100%
Dnaturally and text-align will do its job.  You can also use IDs for
/elements that only appear once in a document..

<div id="logo">
D   <img src="images/logos/home_logo.jpg" width="333" height="96" />
</div>

#logo {
    margin-bottom: 55px;
    text-align: center;
}

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
U13:43:45.247 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [108]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>

Joel,
FI've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font 
7size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...

body {  font-size: 76%; }

LThen, for different sections (divs) I set the font size to ems. Examples...

#middle { font-size: 1em; }
#left { font:-size: .9em }

?I also set the font size by ems for other elements. Example...

h1 { font-size: 2em; }

CThis allows the fonts to resize in ems in relation to the first % 
Fdeclaration. Whether it works for you, or not I don't  know. You may 
Jwant to try it and experiment changing % and em sizes and see if you can 
tweek it to your needs.
--
Tony
U13:43:45.247 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [109]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:06:28 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
G> I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
9> size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>
> body {  font-size: 76%; }

Why?

EI, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
Apage's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
1From mrmazda at ij.net  Sat Apr 26 21:18:34 2003
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:18:34 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>

Ian Hickson wrote:
 
*> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:

I> > I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
;> > size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
 
> Why?
 
G> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

HShhhhh! You, of all people, should know better. For people like you and
Gme, this is how we want inconsiderate web designers to make their text
Atiny. When they use 'body {font-size: 76%;}', it allows our user
Hstylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100% !important;}' to put it back how
Ait belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in body and shrink everything
Eelsewhere, our simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing
something?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.248 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [110]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:26:05 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
 <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>

Ian,
IUntimately almost anyone can set their font size as a user, even if the 
Epage is built to display at pixels. The designer sets the size they 
Ithink is best. After that, its out of their hands and the viewer can do 
Cas they wish. I picked up the method I suggest from Owen Briggs...

Ahttp://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html

JIt made sense to me, so I went with it. He gives some good reasons as to 
why he uses % and ems.

GAs usual, the wiki for this list points to some excellent resources...

.http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FontSize
--
Tony

Ian Hickson wrote:

)>On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>  
>
G>>I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
9>>size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>>
>>body {  font-size: 76%; }
>>    
>>
>
>Why?
>
F>I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
B>page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
>  
>
U13:43:45.248 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [111]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261322140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:
> > >
 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }
> >
I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
2> Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better.

Hehe.


D> For people like you and me, this is how we want inconsiderate web
E> designers to make their text tiny. When they use 'body {font-size:
D> 76%;}', it allows our user stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100%
I> !important;}' to put it back how it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in
I> body and shrink everything elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule
&> can't work. Am I missing something?

II used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
to use it.

It doesn't work.

JThe problem is that many people write pages that are sized in pixels, and
Hwhen you override their setting on body, you end up making entire pages
unreadable.

FI guess it's better for authors to make their pages unreadable in one
Kplace (the body rule above) rather than all over though, as you point out.
KI just wish I understood why people are so obsessed with making their text
tiny.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
/From ian at hixie.ch  Sat Apr 26 21:32:19 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261328180.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
K> It made sense to me, so I went with it. He gives some good reasons as to
> why he uses % and ems.

JOh I wasn't disagreeing with using %s and ems -- indeed I have written my
own comments on the matter:

1    http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1045789943&count=1

II'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
use better than me. :-)

#*crawls back into his ivory tower*

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
=From joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca  Sat Apr 26 21:51:21 2003
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:51:21 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

?Well, the replies to my message are certainly interesting. ;-)

JI'm not entirely new to CSS, but I am new to sizing fonts with something 
Mother than pixels (yes I decided to give control back to the user). The use 
Gof ems vs % almost seems to be a personal preference, so I guess that 
doesn't really matter.

MSo if I use body {font-size: 100%}, then the rest of the page will be sized 
Lin relation to that (i.e. 80% of 100, 75% of 100), right? Or will there be 
;some inheritance along the way under certain cirumstances?

?And does this apply to ems as well? Or do ems act differently?


MThat's a lot of questions for just one answer, eh?  -- If there is only one 
answer :-)




(At 05:18 PM 4/26/03, Felix Miata wrote:
>Ian Hickson wrote:
>
,> > On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
K> > > I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
=> > > size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>
 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
	> > Why?
>
I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
I>Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better. For people like you and
H>me, this is how we want inconsiderate web designers to make their text
B>tiny. When they use 'body {font-size: 76%;}', it allows our user
I>stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100% !important;}' to put it back how
B>it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in body and shrink everything
F>elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing
>something?
>--
?>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
?>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur
>
(>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
>
@>Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
>
H>______________________________________________________________________
+>css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3>http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D>Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
U13:43:45.248 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [112]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:57:22 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261322140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAAF2B2.7C90@ij.net>

Ian Hickson wrote:
 
*> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:

"> > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }

K> > > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
G> > > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

4> > Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better.
 
> Hehe.
 
F> > For people like you and me, this is how we want inconsiderate web
G> > designers to make their text tiny. When they use 'body {font-size:
F> > 76%;}', it allows our user stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100%
K> > !important;}' to put it back how it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in
K> > body and shrink everything elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule
(> > can't work. Am I missing something?
 
K> I used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
> to use it.
 
> It doesn't work.

Better than nothing.
 
L> The problem is that many people write pages that are sized in pixels, and
J> when you override their setting on body, you end up making entire pages
> unreadable.

GWell, body 100% doesn't impact elements sized in px. :-( But, only for
Fthe time it takes to use zoom, pending a fix someday maybe (users can
Eall hope, can't we?) for bug 4821, or even implementation of Jakob's
*suggestion "Improving Future Browsers" at
-http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20020819.html.

H> I guess it's better for authors to make their pages unreadable in one
M> place (the body rule above) rather than all over though, as you point out.

Shhhhh!

M> I just wish I understood why people are so obsessed with making their text
> tiny.

FAt URL below I've collected some reasons. Maybe you can add some I've
missed?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

FFelix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/defaultsize.html
U13:43:45.248 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [113]
=================
)From: sarah at weed.org.nz (Sarah Wedde)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:02:01 +1200
,Subject: [css-d] Disappearing Div on Mac IE
<In-Reply-To: <NFBBKJNGEDABMFKHCIFEAECKEAAA.david@lenef.com>
.Message-ID: <BAD14D09.8875%sarah@weed.org.nz>

David,

KI think you  need to set an explicit width on the left-hand div (div.photo
H{margin-bottom: 2em; width: 300px;}) in order to get Mac/IE5 to behave.

Sarah


;On 4/27/03 7:44 AM, "David Lenef" <david@lenef.com> wrote:

#> http://Lenef.com/elite/prodtest/

M> On NetMechanic's Browser Photo, the right-hand content div does not appear
M> in Mac IE 5.0 screenshots, and most of it is way off the right edge of the
> viewport on Mac IE 4.5.
 
G> It's supposed to be a 2-column layout with photos down the left side
K> (float:left) and text specs on the right (margin-left used to create the
M> right column effect and stay out of the way of the photos). Style sheet is
N> embedded in the page. Any ideas what I need to do to accommodate Mac users?
 
> David Lenef
U13:43:45.248 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [114]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:11:58 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261359140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

'On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Joel Young wrote:
>
A> And does this apply to ems as well? Or do ems act differently?

JOn the font-size property, 'em' and '%' mean exactly the same. (Well, 1em
Kis equivalent to 100%, so they mean the same thing given a factor of 100.)
JBoth of them refer to a value relative to the parent element's font-size.

IOn other properties, '%' refer to other measures, for example percentage
Gmargins refer to the width of the containing block. On the other hand,
4'em' units always refer to the element's font-size.

For example, given:

   h1 { font-size: 2em; }
   p { text-indent: 1em; }
$   blockquote { font-size: 0.5em; }

	...then:

-  <body>              User's font size (1em)
:   <h1> ... </h1>     Twice user's font size (2em of 1em)
4   <p> ... </p>       User's font size (1em of 1em)
   <blockquote>
=    <h1> ... </h1>    User's font size (2em of 0.5em of 1em)
B    <p> ... </p>      Half user's font size (1em of 0.5em of 1em)
   </blockquote>

  </body>

HTH,
-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
8From kr43m0r at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 26 22:16:26 2003
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:16:26 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
J	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
2Message-ID: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
> Why?
>
G> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

PWhy? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the OS. This
&is often in conflict with the design.

NWhat is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser, 76% is a
JVERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
,comfortable with reading text at that size.

PIf you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser to something
Qcomfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer to mimic the size of your
Emenu text by adjusting the default browser font size with a % value.

QGood for you if you've changed the default browser text size to fit your viewing
Kpleasure. By setting the default size to a percentage of the default, that
Qdesigner has opened the door for you to tweak it to suit your preference. Had he
6specified pixels, you on IE would have little choice.

Q>From my point of view, if you find MOST of the sites you visit too difficult to
Nview, then you'd be advised to seek an alternative UA if your user preference
yields no improvement.

Can you read a typical book?

PI'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs. I did 100% at
Qone point and got an equal amount of suggestions from users to reduce or enlarge
)the default size as I do now. Go figure?

Lonnie
U13:43:45.248 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [115]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:26:02 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
p	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
2Message-ID: <002101c30c3a$706aa6a0$6401a8c0@yoda>

Felix,

NAccording to your calculations, I'm glad it is impossible for me to ever even
meet you half-way!

Lonnie
U13:43:45.248 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [116]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:31:46 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261328180.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
5Message-ID: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>

7on 4/26/03 4:32 PM, Ian Hickson at ian@hixie.ch wrote:

K> I'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
> use better than me. :-)
> 
%> *crawls back into his ivory tower*

KAnd while you're up there see if you can get the W3C to drop font settings
Gfrom CSS3 - or perhaps just drop fixed-size units all together - cause
Kthat's the only way we'll never see this topic again. (and while you're at
Mit can we get some relative color units? Like "dark, darker, light, lighter"
Lor maybe that would screw with users who change their color settings to the
Dinverse of what authors expect... So maybe some way to reference an
3"opposite" color would be needed... Hehe... Sorry)

MAs an author I find a base px size with relative units off of that (as a few
Mothers have referred to in this thread) is sometimes the only sane way to do
Jthings - especially when so many other items on a page are based on pixel
Imeasurements. It just doesn't make sense not to give a default in pix to
Jmaintain the balance of a layout for the vast majority of users who don't
Mtouch their prefs. I also am generally pretty liberal with my choice of font
9sizes - using what is some circles would consider "big".

FYes using all relative units (or just not touching anything) would be
Jpreferred, but because there's such a wide gap between the many who don't
Lknow about their prefs, the few who do and take care to adjust accordingly,
Gand the clients that are paying the bills its sometimes not practical.

KAs a surfer I sometimes wish my browser(s) of choice were smarter in these
Iareas and could do things like remember text zoom settings, or alternate
Kstyle sheet choices across a site and across multiple sessions, similar to
Jhow remembers image blocking or cookies choices. I also am quick to set a
Mminimum font size of 9 or 10px when I install a browser which causes some of
Jits own problems (e.g. may hide some implied document structure, or cause
=overflow issues) but alleviates many of the worst offenders.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:45.249 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [117]
=================
1From: svendtofte at svendtofte.com (Svend Tofte)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:42:31 +0200
%Subject: SV: [css-d] ems or percent?
EMessage-ID: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEENOCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>

<> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge.
> X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

IJust wanted to point out, that menu text, and "reading" text, is not the
Ksame, and is not read in the same way. I would be veary of comparing maybe
Hten small words, at the top of a window, with a page full of text, it's
Itotally different sizes here. Microsoft Word has a default size of 12pt.

Just a comment :)

Svend
U13:43:45.251 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [118]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:15:04 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
6In-Reply-To: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:
> > >
F> > > When they use 100% in body and shrink everything elsewhere, our
G> > > simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing something?
> >
M> > I used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
 > > to use it. It doesn't work.
>
> Better than nothing.

KNot really. All it does is change one set of unreadable pages for another.
;As you point out, what is really needed is full page zoom.


#On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Lonnie wrote:
>
P> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

Interesting.

LSo basically I should set my font size to 130% of what I would want to see?

GUnfortunately this makes sites that do honour my settings way too big.


F> I'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs. I
D> did 100% at one point and got an equal amount of suggestions from
F> users to reduce or enlarge the default size as I do now. Go figure?

GIf you got the same number of complaints when doing the right thing as
Gwhen doing the wrong thing, I would suggest doing the right thing. :-)


+On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Chris Casciano wrote:
9> on 4/26/03 4:32 PM, Ian Hickson at ian@hixie.ch wrote:
>
M> > I'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
> > use better than me. :-)
> >
'> > *crawls back into his ivory tower*
>
M> And while you're up there see if you can get the W3C to drop font settings
I> from CSS3 - or perhaps just drop fixed-size units all together - cause
8> that's the only way we'll never see this topic again.

DDropping absolute units has been considered several times, but as a
Awhole the working group feels that they do have valid use cases.


E> (and while you're at it can we get some relative color units? Like
F> "dark, darker, light, lighter" or maybe that would screw with users
A> who change their color settings to the inverse of what authors
E> expect... So maybe some way to reference an "opposite" color would
> be needed... Hehe... Sorry)

EThis is also being considered, although I hear there are issues with
?how to define it. I recommend checking the www-style archives.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
2From tbounds at gci.net  Sat Apr 26 23:40:48 2003
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:40:48 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>

Ian,
GWhat do you think of the designer being so bold as to not honor other 
user settings? For instance...

EFont Type: Setting preferred font types. As with setting font size, 
Hdoing such requires the user to go out of their way to apply what they 
may prefer.

IContent Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in 
?effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.

DLink Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a 
designers preference. 
--
Tony
U13:43:45.251 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [119]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:42:09 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
UReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
'	<001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
#Message-ID: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>

Lonnie wrote:

> Ian Hickson wrote:

> > Tony Bounds wrote:

 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }

	> > Why?

I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
 
R> Why? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the OS. This
(> is often in conflict with the design.
 
<> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge.

GActually it is a terrible gauge propagated by Owen Biggs, who has also
:shared such other gems as "the browser defaults are huge"
G<http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html> and
D"most browsers default to a text size that I have to back up to the
kitchen to read"
I<http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/font/index.html>.
EIt is apparent that Owen's eyes are not your average UA user's eyes,
Hbeing akin to those of an eagle, able to see the tiniest things at huge
Ddistances. It is wholly unfair to assume most UA users have similar
	ability.

> X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

IIt's an awful and not even comparable estimate. Bogus, bogus, bogus. Can
Eread and comfortable read are entirely different things. If the menu
Atext is 76% of a comfortably set default page text, it is merely
Elegible, not comfortable. Simply legible is good enough for familiar
Hthings like system controls. They get used frequently, but only briefly
Ieach time. With each use, they become more familiar, eventually reaching
Ithe point where experienced users wish they were smaller still, in order
Fto provide more space to the viewport, or to allow the use of smaller
Iwindows, so that more of other windows could be seen simultaneously. The
Gfamiliarity all but dispenses with any need to read at all, with mouse
Ievents targeted to remembered screen locations rather than words read. A
Gshort squint at small controls here & there is far more tolerable than
Gfull time squint required to read page text as small as controls text.

R> If you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser to something
S> comfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer to mimic the size of your
G> menu text by adjusting the default browser font size with a % value.

ENo it isn't, and you don't know what size my menu text is anyway. In
Gwindoze for example, controls text size varies according to DPI, which
Ialso you don't know. The eagle-eyed may very well find that the default,
Fdesigned for low resolution displays, works perfectly fine even after
Hdoubling the screen resolution from the low common values of 640 or 800
Gwide. Others, like me, and many others no longer under 40, welcome the
Iability to increase controls size, whether or not increasing resolution,
7taking away the need to squint to use system controls.

GFWIW, the IE6/Mozilla defaults of 16px/12pt are close enough for me to
Icall just right, when I'm using 1024 wide resolution, and a 19" monitor.
CWhen I drop the resolution back to 800 wide, 13px becomes slightly
Ftaller than 16px is on 1024 wide, while 12px becomes slightly shorter
D<http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/pixelsize2.html>, & I change my
default from 16 to 13.

%Now, compare to Ian Hixie's settings
E<http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1045789943&count=1>. Twice 12.5px is 25px
D(prefs options include 24 & 26, but not 25). Twice 800 wide is 1600
Fwide. The only significant difference in conversion is his display is
Bsmaller, but then he's probably not even half my age (50+), still
Eblessed with decent if not good eyesight. From what I've seen of his
Dmusings on the subject of font sizes, I hesitate to assume his near
vision is excellent.
 
> Can you read a typical book?

DThere is no such thing as a typical book. My bible is a large print
Fedition. Many paperbacks use smaller text than newspapers. Newspapers
Hare a strain, so I get most of my news off TV, or the internet, where I
Ghave a UA that allows me to override the common arrogant page designer
Iassumption that UA designers are ignorant morons who make the PC default
12pt/16px without good reason.
 
C> I'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs

CI'd like to visit some of these. As long as I've been reading your
Hadvocations of designer knows best I can't recall one instance of a URL
pointing to any of your work.

> I did 100% at
S> one point and got an equal amount of suggestions from users to reduce or enlarge
+> the default size as I do now. Go figure?

8You place more value upon the clueless than the clued. 

ADo you design sites using IE6 using the system defaults, with no
Eadjustment to the defaults, such as adjusting the browser default to
Gyour liking before starting a design? One of these days section 508 is
liable to catch up with you.

GIt's certainly a good thing for users of sites made by people like you
?that UA zoom and !important in user stylesheets are available.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.252 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [120]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:59:51 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
5Message-ID: <BAD087A7.53B97%chris@placenamehere.com>

9on 4/26/03 6:42 PM, Felix Miata at mrmazda@ij.net wrote:

> 
9> You place more value upon the clueless than the clued.

Yes.

MAnd until browsers come with install wizards that walk through configuration
 I don't see that changing much.

M... If you know how to set up your browser of choice for desktop for optimal
Gviewing I will try my damnedest to not screw you over (e.g. 0.5-0.7ems
Iothers referenced) But I have a lot more confidence that you know how to
Kdeal with what I as an author throw your way, then I have for Joe Internet
User.

:*takes this moment to consider the absence of a list mom*

LI know you'll never be satisfied with that answer Felix so I'm not going to
Hbother continuing down this road. I urge others on both sides to do the
same.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:45.252 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [121]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
 <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261548211.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
H> What do you think of the designer being so bold as to not honor other
!> user settings? For instance...
>
F> Font Type: Setting preferred font types. As with setting font size,
I> doing such requires the user to go out of their way to apply what they
> may prefer.

IOverriding font-family is easy at the user stylesheet level, so I'm fine
*with authors choosing their own typeface.


J> Content Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in
A> effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.

HI say good luck to them. My user agent gives me the ability to override
window resizing, etc. :-)


E> Link Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a
> designers preference.

KLike with font-family, colours are easy to override, so I'm fine with that
Htoo. In general, and this applies to font-family too, different colours
Ddon't make a page more or less readable for me, like font sizes do.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
7From cdwise at wiserways.com  Sun Apr 27 00:04:28 2003
/From: cdwise at wiserways.com (Cheryl D. Wise)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:04:28 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
AMessage-ID: <003f01c30c48$30858060$1901a8c0@local.wiserways.com>

IYou may think on your monitor that 76% of the default setting is a "good
Hestimate" but I can't read 76% of the default on my laptop period, with
or without reading glasses.

GWhile I applaud using % instead of fixed px (or even worse pt) sizes I
Iget very tired of having to adjust fonts up to read them. Funny enough I
Hcan only think of one site that I even considered adjusting a font down
Hto a smaller size and it was a site on accessibility that seemed to use
an extra large size font.

EPersonally I'd rather a design be 'broken' than a site's contents be

unusable.

Cheryl D. Wise
WiserWays, LLC
www.wiserways.com
Office: 713.353.0139
Mobile: 713.412.0406
cdwise@wiserways.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Lonnie

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
> Why?
>
H> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the 
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

GWhy? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the
/OS. This is often in conflict with the design.
U13:43:45.253 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [122]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:12:47 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
#Message-ID: <3EAB126F.7A2D@ij.net>

Tony Bounds wrote:

E> Link Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a
> designers preference.

BEventually, the power for users to override using css will become
)commonly exercised. e.g., this I do now:

?:link:hover[target="_blank"],:visited:hover[target="_blank"] {
7  color: white !important; background: red !important;
}
;:link:hover[target="_new"],:visited:hover[target="_new"] {
7  color: white !important; background: red !important;
}

-http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.254 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [123]
=================
)From: simon at jessey.net (Simon Jessey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:33:20 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
o	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
	<3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
:Message-ID: <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>

----- Original Message ----- 
%From: "Felix Miata" <mrmazda@ij.net>
%Subject: Re: [css-d] ems or percent?


> If the menu
C> text is 76% of a comfortably set default page text, it is merely
G> legible, not comfortable. Simply legible is good enough for familiar
> things like system controls.


MI have to agree with that. I have a 21 inch monitor attached to a Windows XP
Iplatform set to 1280 x 1024. I use this setting because I want plenty of
Jscreen real estate, but the menus (in their default setting) are a little
too small for my liking.

JI make web documents using relative units, with the only exceptions being
Gthe odd bit of padding, border width or letter spacing. In the case of
Mfonts, I almost always set a size of 100% in the BODY and then have 0.8em as
Gmy smallest child size. Users have the option of making it quite a bit
Msmaller or larger if they desire. I like to make a font as large as possible
&without it being ugly or impractical.

FThis new trend for microfonts is peculiar. I can only assume that the
Ltypical designer has a gigantic monitor, or perhaps projects their computer
Himage on a wall. One site that particularly annoys me is Kaliber10000 (
Ihttp://www.k10k.net/ ). Let me quote from one of my own weblog entries:-

I'The design is absolutely incredible, but the small font size being used
Dmeans that glyphs are dwarfed by medium-sized subatomic particles.'

MAnd resizing the text isn't always the answer, assuming it is even possible.
MMaking the text bigger on the Kaliber10000 site reveals the structure of the
?typeface, causing it to appear blocky and '80s computer-like'.

ENo. I am a firm believer in using CSS relative units and leaving the
Ldecision up to the user. It is our job as web designers to conceive layouts
Lthat don't break when text is resized. The fixed width site is a dinosaur -
power to the user!

Simon Jessey

w: http://jessey.net/blog/
e: simon@jessey.net


U13:43:45.254 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [124]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:02:27 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
References: 
J <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
' <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
3Message-ID: <61220190472.20030426190227@attbi.com>

8Lonnie wrote on Saturday, April 26, 2003 at 4:16:26 PM:

D>> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting
?>> the page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems
>> strange.

E> Why? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than
5> the OS. This is often in conflict with the design.

GThat may be a good reason to send a nasty letter to browser makers. On
Ethe other hand, most browsers let the user choose their own default,
Gso it's not at all clear what you'd ask them to do. I'd argue that any
:size has a great chance of conflicting with most designs.

DI can already choose a good default size. My problem isn't with the
Fbrowser, it's with authors who assume I'm ignorant and lazy. They try
Cto "help" me because, after all, they're designers, so surely they
#know what I want better than I do.

G> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser,
D> 76% is a VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you
?> should be fairly comfortable with reading text at that size.

E76% of my preferred font-size = smaller than my preferred menu size,
Dand much smaller than my preferred font-size. What you're saying is
Ftrue if and only if the user hasn't changed their menu text size, the
Euser hasn't changed their browser text size, OS text scaling is off,
Eand they're using a common platform like Windows and IE on a monitor
Gof "normal" size. That's an assumption you can't make with confidence.
FOh, and of course then they need to have near perfect vision as well.

DNor are the two related; I set the menu size in my OS and I set the
Fdefault text size in my browser. Even if you can change the menu size
Edirectly in your browser, I doubt it also rescales your default text
Asize. Further, the two serve different purposes. I want my menus
Gtaking up as little space as possible while still being highly legible
C(where legible means "read easily"). I want web pages to be highly
Greadable (where readable means "read easily at length"). The two serve
Dradically different purposes. As such, my menus are set to a pretty
>small sans-serif and my user style sheet uses a larger serif.

@I don't mind if you override my font-family, even if you choose
Fsomething lame like Times New Roman. I may be annoyed, I may disagree
Ewith you, but at least the text is almost as readable as before. But
Fwhen you cut the size by a quarter, text suddenly becomes much harder
Cto read no matter what my preferred typeface is, and odds are your
@style sheet will be disabled after about two seconds (Ctrl+G by
Adefault in Opera). If your page is designed well, maybe I'll try
Ezooming first instead. Maybe I'll simply leave and go read something
Belse. One thing is certain: There's no way I'll sit there and try
reading tiny text.

E> If you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser
F> to something comfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer
G> to mimic the size of your menu text by adjusting the default browser
> font size with a % value.

DThat doesn't make any sense. The only way it would make sense is if
Gyou know the size of one or both, and you only have access to the size
Gof one (and even then you don't know the specified or actual size). As
Aa web page designer, it's impossible to mimic the size of a menu
Dwithout making assumptions about user settings. The two just aren't
"related unless by happy accident.

EAs mentioned above, nor does it mean the text will be readable, even
"if you could mimic the menu text.

F> Good for you if you've changed the default browser text size to fit
E> your viewing pleasure. By setting the default size to a percentage
E> of the default, that designer has opened the door for you to tweak
G> it to suit your preference. Had he specified pixels, you on IE would
> have little choice.

DI use Opera, and I'm not the only one. Even more people use Mozilla
@and Safari. Where do people get the idea that everyone uses IE?

> Can you read a typical book?

'Yes. That doesn't seem related to CSS.

-- 
John Lewis
U13:43:45.254 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [125]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 01:20:46 +0100
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
�	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda><3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
/	<002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
2Message-ID: <007d01c30c52$d918f950$fd00a8c0@mike>

MI feel somewhat humble at asking a small question in the midst of CSS gurus,
Lwith wide polarity of view (no pun intended), indulging in an excellent and
Kimportant debate. With my business consulting hat on, a simple question...
Gespecially given the cogent example of http://www.k10k.net/, someone's
Gexcellently designed window to the world but so difficult on the eyes.

MOn the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
Iyour opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
Gsettings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
users, most of the time?

Mike
Edinburgh, Scotland
U13:43:45.254 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [126]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:38:50 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <007d01c30c52$d918f950$fd00a8c0@mike>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
 <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
' <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
 <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
/ <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426213121.00bcd8b0@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

!At 09:20 PM 4/26/03, Mike wrote:
><snip>
N>On the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
J>your opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
H>settings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
>users, most of the time?
>
>Mike
>Edinburgh, Scotland



LYes! This is what my original question was about, and I'm glad you brought 
Lit back around, Mike. Hopefully someone will have an answer for us. In the 
Kmeantime, let's see if I understand a few things.  Someone please tell me 
<if I'm even close to knowing what I'm talking about.... :-)

===============
Scenario 1:
AAssume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}

?This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
#of the browser's default. Yes? No?
===============
Scenario 2:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 1em}

AAll text on the page will still be 80% of the browser's default,
=because basically 1em = 100%, and I'm only setting it to 20%
$less (which is 80%).  Right? Wrong?
===============
Scenario 3:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 0.9em}

:Okay, NOW the text will actually be just under 80% of the
:browser default, because it is 9/10ths of 80% of default.
===============
Scenario 4:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 100%}

=Again, the text remains at only 80% of default, because I've
Cset it to be 100% of the body font size (not that I would do that,
it's just for example)
===============
One more... Scenario 5:
body {font-size: 100%}
0.classname {font-size: 1em} or {font-size: 80%}

FHere, the text will either be the full browser default, or 80% of it.
Right?
===============


HIf all the above are correct, then it's just as easy to set the body at
D100% all the time, and simply use smaller percentages for different
sizes.
BThat, or do body {font-size: 100%}, and use various em sizes, and
Ceverything should work out - keeping the sizes within a reasonable
range, of course.

8Did I reach home base, or am I somewhere in left field?


Joel
U13:43:45.254 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [127]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:57:04 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
zReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
F	<3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net> <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
#Message-ID: <3EAB2AE0.7C85@ij.net>

Simon Jessey wrote:
 
H> This new trend for microfonts is peculiar. I can only assume that the
N> typical designer has a gigantic monitor, or perhaps projects their computer
J> image on a wall. One site that particularly annoys me is Kaliber10000 (
K> http://www.k10k.net/ ). Let me quote from one of my own weblog entries:-
 
K> 'The design is absolutely incredible, but the small font size being used
F> means that glyphs are dwarfed by medium-sized subatomic particles.'

HZoom to only 150% in Mozilla trunk, and right in the middle text spills
out of its containing image
Fhttp://www.k10k.net/images/frontpage/features_wspecials.gif. The site
1also depends on image substitutes for text. e.g.
8http://www.k10k.net/images/backs/front_issuematrix.gif 
@And, if you think it's tough now, try it at 1600 wide or higher
Hresolution. Hard to figure if the purpose of that site is anything more
)than to show off someone's css-d skills.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.254 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [128]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:06:58 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
6In-Reply-To: <BAD087A7.53B97%chris@placenamehere.com>
7Message-ID: <001601c30c59$4d8f5e90$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

> Chris Casciano :
>
;> on 4/26/03 6:42 PM, Felix Miata at mrmazda@ij.net wrote:
> >
;> > You place more value upon the clueless than the clued.
 
> Yes.

DEmphatically agree with Chris. While I hesitate to even chime in on
@this, since it seems more than played out and there seems to be
Hunwillingness to budge on both sides of the issue, I would just like to
Iadd, while this is obviously a *philosophical* difference, if left to my
Hown devices I would design for the clueless EVERY time, since they make
3up the vast majority of users that spend the cash.

DExample: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/us-tricks/  

I.. While it's an older article, so much of it is still true to this day.
HSpend some time watching **REAL** users... Not only do many of them not
Gknow what the Stop and Refresh button do, but I have NEVER seen ONE of
Four non-technical test users change their font size.  Ever. I've even
Dasked some to do so specifically and was greeted with the astounded
%reply of "you mean I can do that??".

II can't remember if this specific tale of woe is referenced in the above
Garticle, or one that it links to, but I have actually, personally seen
Eone user complain that he couldn't hit a link in question because he
E"ran out of desk".  This was a bio-chemist whose brain must weigh at
Dleast 5 times what mine does, and  who had been using computers for
Gquite a few years, who didn't realize he could actually pick the mouse
Iup off the desk and reposition it without effecting the cursor position.
HDo you think HE knows how to change his font size?  He doesn't, however
Ihe estimates that a full 60%-70% of his non-essential purchases are made
Eon-line!!!  THIS is the guy I gotta design for??!!?!  Yes.  And when
Bpresented with larger than life, default windows IE text size, he
Hdetests the excessive scrolling he has to go through, and uses the back
Fbutton instead.  I heard him before hitting his back once mutter, "do
 these people think I'm blind?".

GMy dear old mother, who still to this day double-clicks links AND form
Hbuttons on web sites despite all her kids and grandkids telling her not
Gto, can't set the font size on her browser, even though she's actually
Gbeen shown how to a few times, and even had the font-size button added
Cto her IE toolbar for her. She can use three things.. A web site's
Gpresented navigation, her back button, and her "x" button in the upper
Dright hand corner.  BUT, she Googles with the best of 'em, and is a
FHEAVY internet shopper, even finding full-adult size "footie" pajamas
Efor my wife and I (which ain't an easy task, but much appreciated in
INorthern Maine!).  From what I can discern, what she likes to see on web
Hsites is 12 pixel Arial, and will probably never learn how to apply her
Ipersonal preference at the browser level.. But will shop ecommerce sites
F'till the day she dies.  For her, the back button is just easier than
Gbothering with all the "stupid buttons" on the browser (her words, not
mine).

ESo, yeah, I'm totally with Chris.  I don't place more 'value' on the
Hclueless than the "clued"... But the "clued" can figure it out on their
Eown if they want to. The clueless, who spend the same money that the
G"clued" people do, and make up a greater number of users, would prefer
Gthe back button over actually learning how to use their tools.  Bottom
Fline is: my job ain't to convince them to use their tools, never mind
Ateach them HOW, my job is to sell them crap, or convince them of
something.  

DIt just depends on what you do for a living and who your target is.
BProgrammers and Designers are in no way reflective of the average
3internet user, though many of them think they are.

CThe usual disclaimers apply... Just my $0.02, IMHO, YMMV, etc.. :)

--Josh

U13:43:45.254 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [129]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:30:01 +0930
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
(In-Reply-To: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
/Message-ID: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>

Tony Bounds wrote:
> ...
> 
K> Content Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in 
A> effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.
> 
> ...

AI've already been thru a flame war on this on another list, but 
-css-d attracts a more sensible crowd, so ...

BI'm not sure if this is what you meant, but, one of my pet hates 
@is sites which spread their text across the whole width of the 
?window. This particularly applies to "minimal" sites where no 
>use is made of CSS at all, but I've seen it in lots of other 
sites too.

BNow, lots of studies have been done on this, and the evidence is 
@not entirely equivocal, but a concensus seems to be that lines 
8of text should not exceed a certain length for optimum 
@readability. Therefore, it is arguably best to limit the width 
>of blocks of text to, say, 33em. (I've played with this, and 
B30em seemed too narrow, 35em too wide -- to my eyes.) Certainly, 
:this corresponds more or less to what you'll find in any 
Bbookstore. If print publishing represents 500 years of trial and 
>error, then we can feel at least a little confident that the 
@present-day format for books represents a pretty good standard 
:for readability. (Also black text on a white background, 
9although that may also be influenced by printing costs.)

1So there is an argument for using something like

"	div.text { max-width:33em; ... }

?to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of 
the user's screen.

>But many seem to find any kind of limitations placed on user 
Apreference abhorrent, so I'm prepared to hear negative feedback 
on this suggestion.

.A compromise I've adopted at my ebooks site, 
&http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/
6is to open each ebook in a new window which is sized 
Bappropriately*, and leave the user free to resize the new window 
6if they wish. But I'm still tempted to use max-width.

?[* Javascript only lets you specify window size in pixels, so 
/this is only going to be approximate at best.]

	Regards,
Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
U13:43:45.255 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [130]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 05:22:54 -0500
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
? <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net> <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
4Message-ID: <181257423383.20030427052254@attbi.com>

6Steve wrote on Sunday, April 27, 2003 at 12:00:01 AM:

?> But many seem to find any kind of limitations placed on user
E> preference abhorrent, so I'm prepared to hear negative feedback on
> this suggestion.

FOn the contrary, I think they'd be inclined to agree with you. I know
FI do! I'll now start rambling on about CSS; feel free to stop reading
here if you're busy.

EUsing min-width in conjunction with max-width is usually superior to
Dsizing something with a basic em width. The difference is basically
Fthat between a range (e.g., 16em to 32em) and a single number (24em).
?I think we can all agree that a range is almost always better.

FWe don't have anything like min-width and max-width for font-size. If
Dwe did, keeping with the same spirit of min-width and max-width, it
Gwould probably be way too complicated (for author use) anyway. You can
Eeither take monitor, resolution, preferred text size, window height,
Gand window width into account, or you can let it be useless. Including
Fonly some of the above basically cuts its usefulness so much that you
Bmight as well use font-size, and including it all (or most of it)
?makes it so complicated that it would never be implemented, or
Eprobably even specified. Users have their own set of problems. Let's
Gsay it's specified for users instead, with no auto sizing for authors.
-You have two main options for min-font-size:

+    1. Specify a minimum legible font-size
,    2. Specify a minimum readable font-size

CThe problem is, on a well designed page (1em body text and smaller
Bnavigation text) specifying a minimum readable font-size is quite
Cimperfect. Sure, text will be your minimum readable font-size--but
Gthat means that stuff you would prefer small (i.e., legible instead of
Areadable, like menus and legal text) will be too big. On a badly
Ddesigned page (smaller body text and much smaller navigation text),
Athe opposite happens. If you specify the min-font-size to be the
Eminimum legible size, to erase the possibility of illegible text but
Gnot erase the possibility that text will be unreadable, the navigation
Dtext, which was previously illegible, is now legible. The body text
Ewas already legible, so it didn't change in size! It's still just as
>unreadable, because "readable" and "legible" are two entirely
Cdifferent concepts. Which means your two options above really are:

A    1. Screw up small text at well designed sites, but fix badly
)       designed sites as well as you can
E    2. Don't fix badly designed sites, but leave well designed sites
       alone.

@The same applies to max-font-size to a lesser degree, but since
Gmax-font-size isn't quite as important as min-font-size (max-font-size
Eis like min-width, and min-font-size is like max-width, for those of
Byou confused but familiar with those properties--although I think
Fmin-width is relatively more useful than max-font-size, so it's not a
fair comparison).

?Setting a sane column width doesn't have as great an effect on
Ereadability as decreasing a font-size from an optimum size, which is
Dby definition unsafe. It's hard to think of a user style sheet that
?would cause problems if a page sensibly overrode max-width and
Dmin-width values, unless the need was vital (in which case the user
Gwould have already overriden, rendering the problem moot--keep in mind
GI'm only talking about advanced users, since we can assume no one else
Dwould use min-width or max-width or even have a user style sheet at
all).

CIn the case of neophyte users, setting a sane column width doesn't
Chave as adverse an effect on readability as decreasing a font-size
Ffrom an unknown size, because no matter the em value the column width
Cwill make sense (even if it's unreadable, or produces a horizontal
Escrollbar, it will still make sense if you're the page author--which
=is all you can know, since you don't control the user or his
Acomputer), because you have knowledge of the entire author style
Csheet, there is no user style sheet by definition, and even if you
Dsniff for a browser and assume a default font size it may have been
Echanged by accident or by a different user or by OS settings. On the
Fother hand, decreasing an unknown font-size can lead to illegible and
Dunreadable fonts (e.g., if you're decreasing a font-size already on
-the threshold of legibility or readability).

DIn reality, setting a max-width is like setting a line-height. It's
Brelated to the font-size, and it affects readability greatly, but
?they're both based on the font-size in CSS. You can change the
Eline-height, margin, padding, width, and so on that are based on ems
Gwith wild abandon. Even changing colors affects readability (so try to
Eavoid fuschia on magenta, if it's no big deal). You can use them all
Fresponsibly or irresponsibly. The fundamental difference in font-size
B(compared to ems in other properties, in this example) is that by
Dchanging it you affect a great deal. When you change the font-size,
Fmargins and padding in ems are also decreased, the actual line-height
Dis usually decreased, and the width or height of a box sized in ems
<decreases. That's a much bigger deal than changing most CSS
properties.

ENot all ems are created equal. A value of .5em applied to a width is
Galways .5em, no matter the actual font-size. Since you know .5em = 1/2
Bthe current font-size, that's valuable even if you don't know the
Eactual font-size. Setting em on width doesn't change the value; it's
Dconsistent. On the other hand, a value of .5em applied to font-size
Dchanges the meaning of an em. From now on, .5em of that font-size =
C1/4 of the 1em and 1/2 of the current .5em, unless you're changing
Efont-size again, in which case you modify the value for that element
Band its descendants as well. You've now lost basically all of the
Fusefulness of em. You can still calculate values of em, and fractions
Band so on (like I did above), but it won't help you design a page
Gwell, since you don't know the actual value. Much of the reason 1em is
Gso valuable is that it's 1em, not ".9em to 1.3em". That's why assuming
F1em is more valuable than assuming everyone's browser default is 16px
Gexcept that group, whose default is 14px, etc. The absolute values are
Finherently less useful. In a perfect world, you'd know all the values
Gand style according. You'd also know the users favorite colors and pet
peeves.

=You need to know the actual value of 1em to change the value
Dsignificantly with confidence, if you want to know you're improving
Ethe user experience. I define significantly as above 6.25%, but it's
Esort of arbitrary. Sort of. You could practically change it by 18.5%
Cor so without causing major harm in most cases, but you're sure to
Fhave an impact that's felt, and there is the very real possibility of
Aunreadable text. So, 93.75%? Hardly a big deal. I might not even
Dnotice, and even if I do I'm not likely to be hurt terribly. On the
Cother hand, I'll notice and probably curse 81.5% (depending on the
Ctypeface, leading, column width, and my mood). If you were against
Gchanging font-size for body text generally, because you realized there
Gare bad things about doing so, you could still change it to 93.75% (or
?so) and very few people would have cause to complain. Changing
=non-body text to about 81.5% is about as safe. You could get
Bcomplaints from veteran users, and it could cause something to be
<illegible, but very few people will have cause to complain.

FOf course, all that's sort of useless, because my 1em is not Alison's
G1em, or Sarah's 1em, or Aaron's 1em. It may be, but it isn't, and more
Eimportantly it can change, from day to day and even more frequently.
DFor example, my preferred font-size changed no less than four times
Gyesterday. I wasn't doing much of anything strange--I think it changes
at least twice a day.

EEven if a user has a max-width set on body, overriding that value is
Eless harmful than changing a font-size on body. Indeed, if max-width
?on body could cause a problem with your page, you'd do well to
Boverride it preemptively. I think it would be more harmful to not
Econsider the effect of max-width than to consider the effect and act
2accordingly. It would be hard to argue otherwise.

/> A compromise I've adopted at my ebooks site,
G> http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/ is to open each ebook in a new
C> window which is sized appropriately*, and leave the user free to
C> resize the new window if they wish. But I'm still tempted to use
> max-width.

BI say go for it! We need more intelligent uses of CSS on the web,
Gespecially of relatively rare properties. Anything to stop JS windows,
FI say. Of course, Win IE didn't support max-width last I checked, and
5it's funny how most of the web uses Win IE. Oh well.


GI thought about some guidelines for text sizing in CSS. At first I was
?going to list my own guidelines (in fact, I wrote up the email
Fyesterday, but I didn't send it), but I think it would be more useful
Fto list "guidelines for designers." I already know what I'm doing and
Gwhat I like. If someone is likely to agree with me, I think they could
Ejust as easily come up with similar guidelines. I might as well list
.some things people may actually find helpful.

; 1. Size everything relative to body (or the root element)

G    Sizing everything relative to body gives you just as much control,
F    and it lets a user easily override the "main" setting on body and
A    have your page text resize accordingly, both larger and even
F    smaller. Use math if you want exact values. For instance, instead
D    of 14px body text and 28px headings, use 14px body text and 2em
    headings.

  2. Use safe line-height values

@    There's hardly ever a need to specify dangerous line-height
B    values. If you want to maintain an exact value from a certain
A    size, use a little math. For example, 14px/19px would become
B    14px/1.357 (and so on, if you'd like). It's most important to
E    avoid 1em/19px or similar, because 1em could be much larger than
5    19px, in which case the text would be illegible.

$ 3. Take text resizing into account

E    There's a reason pixel-width layouts suck. If there's no room to
E    breath, increased text size values lead to tiny columns of text.
A    In an ideal world, you'd use min-width and max-width to size
F    columns. The reality is there's no good solution today other than
B    avoiding bad situations. That doesn't mean you should neglect
F    min-width and max-width, it just means you shouldn't rely on them
E    working. Keep it in your "complex" style sheet if that's how you
    do things.

; 4. Try to avoid massive font-size changes relative to 1em

D    In many ways, some random px value (as above, preferably on the
F    body element) is better than a small % of my preferred font-size.
B    A small % is surely going to cause headaches, but a random px
F    value has a decent chance of working, and a much better chance of
G    causing less harm if it doesn't work. On the other hand, about 80%
F    of the body size on a menu stands a great chance of being helpful
F    and a tiny chance of being harmful. So do that! It's pretty safe,
    and the payoff is big.

& 5. Try to consider user style sheets

A    I never realized how powerful user style sheets were until I
C    started using them. Similarly, it helps a great deal if you've
D    experimented with CSS before you tackle potential problems. For
<    example, if have a rule like this in a user style sheet

(        p{color:white;background:black}

D    (ever mind how unlikely that is for the moment) and you have an
!    author style sheet with this

        p{background:white}

F    we have a problem. Try to set common values in pairs and whatnot.
G    If something would look truly hideous with a border, and you could
E    imagine someone putting a border on that element in a user style
<    sheet, play it safe and override the border. Colors and
<    backgrounds are meant to be together; on't forget about
E    transparent backgrounds, since you'll probably need or want them
G    at some point. Another thing, since so few CSS sites seem to do it
F    (for whatever reason), please set a line-height if you assume the
E    default value, even if you just use "normal." I don't think it's
D    going to harm anyone, and it will benefit those of us trying to
G    read a narrow column with a huge line-height (or, theoretically, a
@    wide column with a tiny line-height, but that isn't exactly
    likely).

-- 
John Lewis
U13:43:45.255 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [131]
=================
.From: moose at literarymoose.info (The Moose)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:41:52 -0500
4Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
7Message-ID: <oproadf2zb98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>

Hello,

KI have played a bit with the display of the unordered lists when they are 
Kused for navigation of a logical sequence of pages, and would like to ask 
Bfor screenshots from the following browsers: *Safari*, *Camino*, 
*Konqueror*.

EThere are two pages (I'd like to get screenshots for both from each 

browser):

9http://www.literarymoose.info/=/destroy/moovigation.html

Ahttp://www.literarymoose.info/=/destroy/moovigation-variant.html

FThe first features generated content (with entities only) hidden via 
Khtml[xmlns] method, the second does not. Mozilla displays &#xxxx; instead 
Mof the character on the second page (I don't know why). Opera7.1 behaves in 
both cases.

DThe size of screenshots does not matter, I'll be watching my inbox.

thank you in advance,

Wojtek

p.s. styles embedded.
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Sun Apr 27 12:53:21 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:53:21 +0100
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
2Message-ID: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>


KDoes anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and below

for OS X?

LI've successfully divided my CSS into basic version, which gets read by all
Mbrowsers, and more advanced CSS, which gets read by browsers that understand
M@import. This works perfectly in every browser I've thrown it at - including
4the betas of OmniWeb 4.5, based on Apple's WebCore.

MUnfortunately, OmniWeb 4.2 understands @import, but hasn't a clue about what
to do with the CSS afterwards.

MIs there a CSS-based way of hiding styles from OmniWeb? Or would I be better
Loff detecting the user-agent on the server - and then add any other problem
browsers to my detection list?


Seb

U13:43:45.255 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [132]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:09:17 +0900
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
3In-Reply-To: <1160748345-3816664@pointinspace.com>
=Message-ID: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 01:21  AM, Rick Hurst wrote:

I> for some reason this layout is missing the left border when displayed 
E> in IE5 mac. The odd thing is that the space has been left for the 
L> border, but no colour is showing. Any ideas why, or how I might fix > it?
>
/> http://www.hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.htm

EYour <div id="myclear"> is empty, except for an absolute positioned 
Himage (which is taken out of the document flow any way). I deleted the 
F'width' on your #myclear, and added a non-breaking space in the div, 
;and then your layout worked out exactly as in Mozilla 1.4.

	Philippe

:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:45.255 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [133]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:09:30 +0900
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
3In-Reply-To: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
=Message-ID: <7B1D8EC7-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 08:53  PM, Seb Duggan wrote:

H> Does anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and 
> below
> for OS X?

:I use <link rel="stylesheet"............media="Screen" />
(note the capital S)
D<http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/macbrowsercsssupport.html>,
scroll down to the bottom.

	Philippe

:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:45.255 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [134]
=================
*From: WebHead at wi.rr.com (Arlen Walker)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 08:47:55 -0500
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
8In-Reply-To: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
=Message-ID: <D971F63A-78B6-11D7-A71B-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>


@On Saturday, April 26, 2003, at 01:52  PM, Matthew Davey wrote:

J> Works fine in all win browsers I've been able to download, no Mac, and 
> Linux
H> till I get a spare day, so if any one with either of these platforms 
> could
)> check it for me, I'd be most grateful.

JNot bad. Suffers from the "phantom right margin" bug in IE5/Mac, because 
Iyour "linksright" div is right-poistioned within 16px of the right edge 
Fof the viewport. When this happens, IE5/Mac adds another 16px to the 
Gwidth, forcing horizontal scrollbars when none are needed. Fix is not 
Jpositioning it within 16 px of the edge and optionally giving a negative 
$right margin to move the text over.

=Also center column is a tad lower than the two outside ones.

ABoth of these are minor cosmetics, the second one could even be 
Econsidered an intentional design choice (the "asymmetry adds visual 
Jinterest" bit). Positioned as it is below the subtitle for your site, it 
@actually works better than uniform starting positions, I think.

HThen again, I always liked comic books with non-square panels, as well.


Have fun,
Arlen

-----
-In God We Trust, all others must supply data
U13:43:45.255 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [135]
=================
0From: css at nextw3.net (Marcello Armand-Pilon)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:42:17 +0200
,Subject: [css-d] IE Win positioning problem
:Message-ID: <3E8423B100919A0B@smtp12.cp.tin.it> (added by
	postmaster@virgilio.it)

Hi all,

�I am working on a site that displays correctly in a variety of browsers under Mac and Win, except IE6 Win. Sorry if I cannot provide a URL, 'cause I'm still working locally, but here's the main DIV that's causing the poblem:

#mainframe {
	position: absolute;
	text-align: center;
	width: 800px;
	margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px;
	padding: 0;
	text-align: left;
	}

�With all the browsers I have tested so far, the left margin is anchored 20px far from the browser left side, but IE6 Win add a huge 400px margin (more or less) on the left side. If I change the position from absolute to relative, things run better, but the content is then liquid, while I want it to stay 20px from the browser left side, and don't move.

[I'm sure this matter has been discussed already, but any help would be gratly appreciated.

Thanks, Marcello
:From chris at placenamehere.com  Sun Apr 27 17:55:27 2003
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:55:27 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
3In-Reply-To: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
5Message-ID: <BAD183BF.53C5C%chris@placenamehere.com>

?on 4/27/03 7:53 AM, Seb Duggan at outlaw@joseywales.com wrote:

O> Unfortunately, OmniWeb 4.2 understands @import, but hasn't a clue about what
!> to do with the CSS afterwards.
>

LThere's a point at which a user needs to be reminded they're using a flawed
Lproduct by seeing things break. Most site builders don't have the luxury of
Kputting NN4, IE, Safari or Moz in that category due to the politics of the
Imarketplace. I consider OmniWeb 4.2- as the exception for a few reasons:

K* OmniWeb users as a whole seem to be the types that are more impressed by
JUI features and control then they are with presentation of content. While
IOmniGroup doesn't promote the fact that their rendering engine is behind
Mthey don't cover the fact up at all. They maintain a more active part in the
Kgeneral user community then any browser vendor I know and they are very in
Ftune with the interface features that users are looking for. The only
Mcompelling reason (to date) to use OmniWeb is was for its interface options.
JAs a result, using the terminology of another recent thread, I would as a
Mrule consider OmniWeb users to be "clued" and able to roll with the punches.

J* The OmniGroup folks are good people who know their product is flawed in
Lterms of CSS. For some time now they have had plans to rewrite their engine
Kso haven't totally overhauled their current NN4-like engine, but even with
Kthat in mind they have always (IMExperience) been quick to fix errors that
Jcaused the loss of access to a site. So in many ways having a broken page
/has made the browser better in the short term.


MSo given that OW is a currently active development project (unlike NN4), and
Kits users are as a (my) rule the informed type (which is unheard of in all
Lother situations) and keep on top of software updates, I generally take the
Cstance that a site for a general audience should do very little to
accommodate OW users.

GPlease don't try and convince me that I'm wrong here, the above wasn't
Kintended to convince anyone of anything. Just thought it be appropriate to
Gstate my (formed after 2 yrs of watching this very open community-like
Eproject, cause I'm a software geek that way) position on the matter.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:45.256 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [136]
=================
+From: derek at derekrogerson.com (Derek R)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:06:46 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
7Message-ID: <001101c30cf0$27e7e8a0$96a95bd1@satellite>

	  
Somebody said:
,>| I did 100% at one point and got an equal
/>| amount of suggestions from users to reduce 
7>| or enlarge the default size as I do now. Go figure?


IIt is my experience that designers tend to make their font-size as small
Gas possible simply because the content which the font-size contains is
)largely, if not entirely, communicative.

=This is to say, most blogs/websites/news-stories etc have no
Einformation/knowledge to offer so ostentatious exhibition is instead
9brought in to disguise --or make up for-- the absence of
Dcontent/substance, which is plainly absent when one reads the words
(i.e. it is communicative).

AIt is very much like Western/European culture in general, or say
EHollywood promotions, where what is promoted (the movie/tv-show, for
Hinstance) is, upon real experience/inspection [i.e. sitting through the
Aentirety of the production] not-at-all-worth-the-time-spent, but
Deverybody-else-is-doing-it, so the tendency (fear) is not to appear
oppositional.

HSmall-font designers treat their text like greek-text, which is to say,
Cif they were to expand it and make it much larger-in-size it would
Ibecome *painfully* obvious just what is being said (nothing worthwhile).

ITo provide the /appearance/ of intelligence, relevance, and/or pleasure,
Gthe designer uses small font-sizes to mask the content itself, thereby
Gsaving-face through obscuring what the designer knows to be valueless.

GThis is the same as people who wear message t-shirts or highly-visible
Dbranded clothing, who, by diverting attention to the message on the
Bmaterial one is wearing, obscures the wearer (the person) thereby
Hsaving-face and avoiding the pain of being responsible for who-they-are
(don't look in my eyes).  

IThis is not to say most everything online or in Western/European culture
Hhas nothing genuine to say or lacks value, indeed, this is exactly what
>I'm saying, but, rather, that *revelation* of this absence of
Isense/content is, its own medicine, so to speak, so that the sight of it
makes one account for it.

EIn summary, a larger font-size (say 100% ~ the whole tamale) is more
Hprominent than the usual smaller font-sizes one encounters, which is to
Bsay larger is bigger, which no doubt will cause attention to come
forward (to the content).

EThe real question is what are you saying (substance) and why are you
Htrying to hide it? (I understand ostentatious exhibition is largely the
'substance of Western/European design).


AThis email is a characterization of a generalization (seething).


+__________________________________________
"Chant down Babylon"
	 
	 
U13:43:45.256 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [137]
=================
(From: tl at abhalfdan.dk (Torben Linde)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:57:11 +0200
8Subject: [css-d] IE missing borders on inline list menu
6Message-ID: <20030427195711.28518@smtp.gnbolignet.dk>

Hello

BI have made a tab-like menu for this page: www.bryggenet.dk using
Funordered lists with inline li's. The page is valid xhtml 1.0 and css
(except the forum area).

HThe menus are located in div class="menua" and div class="menub". menua
<is the tabs and menub is a submenu on the page of each tab.

<The css-file is here: www.bryggenet.dk/layout/bryggenet.css

JThis works well in Mozilla and Safari, but the tab-like look is dependant
)on changes in border color on the li's. 
JIE/win will not show the top and bottom border on these elements and that
ruins the tab-effect somewhat.

8Is there any way to make IE show the borders correctly?

JI have tried to do the menus with left-floated divs instead but so far it
has not worked too well.



Torben Linde
U13:43:45.256 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [138]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:42:10 +0100
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
3Message-ID: <l03130300bad1d4c8a3aa@[192.168.1.36]>

K>Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I
M>could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending
L>on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the
>size of the image

IJust a quick note since I'm unfortunately tied up with mountains of work
Eand attempting to resuscitate my iBook which is dying the death of a
Aseemingly infinite number of colourful (and colourless) screens.

JAs Holly points out, it's not too hard to make css layouts fall over. The
Gpage can't take in to account all possible bugs and flaws and it's not
Emeant to just be used as is - it's not a substitute for the dull and
;thankless task of checking accross platforms and browsers.

JThat said, I'll try and pursue Holly's line of enquiries as to under what
0precise circumstances things can vanish in IE6.

EAll I can suggest (untested since I have no IE6 at themoment) did is
Esetting the image's position to relative. Nested divs in this layout
Drequire that and maybe images that fit the exact width need it too.
LAlternatively you could increase the width of the right hand column and set
its margin

JAnyhow when I've got a copy of IE6 again I'll investigate and also see if
Mthe pure float model (FFFF rather than FMFM) suffers from the same problems.


U13:43:45.256 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [139]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:32:11 +0100
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
>In-Reply-To: <7B1D8EC7-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
2References: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <l03130301bad1f7eee1c5@[192.168.0.36]>

H>> Does anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and
	>> below
>> for OS X?

GThere is another way to hide CSS from OmniWeb which doesn't rely on an
.external files like the Codebitch method does

<<http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/test/OmniWebInlineHack.mhtml>

JI'd guess that OmniWeb 4.5 with it's all new rendering engine will now do
Kthe right thing (can't check that myself so any reports on that gratefully

received)

U13:43:45.256 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [140]
=================
;From: peter.williams at hendersons.com.au (Peter Williams)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:36:58 +1000
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
LMessage-ID: <NBBBKHLHIPAOABOPCOCBEEGJAKAB.peter.williams@hendersons.com.au>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Thomas
> 
D> I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but, one of my pet hates 
B> is sites which spread their text across the whole width of the 
> window. 
> 
3> So there is an argument for using something like
> 
$> 	div.text { max-width:33em; ... }
> 
A> to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of 
> the user's screen.
> 

=I've worked on line lengths of 43 chars in the past as being
=comfortable for reading. Just last week I used the max-width
9directive to prevent text running off to the right in an
=unconstrained manner. It only works in some browsers though.
;I've really started to try to use w3c standards and ignore
?browser quirks and issues where possible for my intranet work.
CUnless a page is rendered unusable in either Moz or IE5 and higher
=I'll go with a clean, standard HTML 4 Strict or XHTML markup
<and some CSS these days. Our public web site is a different
Akettle of fish though, I'll make sure that works well in as many
Bbrowsers as possible, although I won't use non-validating markup.

<flame class="low crackle">
ANew windows of a size chosen by the page author are abhorent :-)
	</flame>

--
Peter Williams
U13:43:45.256 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [141]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:01:24 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
<Message-ID: <000001c30d08$8ea98680$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>

	Hi guys,
 
@I have done pretty much all I can with my client's new site in 
@css. (I know I have used tables in a couple of places, but that
:was for avoiding IE problems with small screen widths ...
and time constraints)
 
*I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera, 

Mac IE 5?
 
>Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
.MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
 
Thanks ...
 
,... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
 
http://www.golfbreaks.com/
 
--
Sam Ellis - 
7From RHulse at radionz.co.nz  Sun Apr 27 23:36:54 2003
.From: RHulse at radionz.co.nz (Richard Hulse)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:36:54 +1200
&Subject: [css-d] Unfixing fixed menus
4Message-ID: <sead0460.099@rnz03.wgtn.radionz.co.nz>

+I have posted this on WD-L for discussion.

HI'm posting it here as it is of interest, even is slightly OT due the =
javascript content.

	regards,
Richard
%=AF---------------------------------
>I have taken Eric Bednarz' example of fixed areas in IE at=20

"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

(and applied it to this sub-site at RNZ:

&http://www.radionz.co.nz/digitallife/

MIt worked quite well but for one main issue - when the width of the screen =
Mis too narrow the scoll bar dissappears. I'm not sure if this can be fixed =
by tweaking the CSS files.

LAnyway, as is always the case with fixed menus, if the window is not high =
(enough you lose the bottom of the menu.

KI have come up with a little JS that fixes both the problem. It works in =
,Moz and IE 5/6. on PC (not sure about Mac).

=In moz if the browser is too short then it unfixes the menu.
MIn IE it unfixes the menu, and re-fixes it if the browser is returned to a =
suitable size.

FThe JS relys on the IE style sheet having a title (which IE ignores).

.Any suggestions and improvements appreciated.

U13:43:45.256 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [142]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:43:12 +0100
!Subject: [css-d] Problem layouts
;Message-ID: <022269AB-790A-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


Hello,

GI've been using CSS for a while now and I'm beginning to feel that it 
Gdoesn't quite offer me the design toolbox I need. During almost every 
Dproject I work on there is a period of hacking with CSS to get the 
Edesired results. While most of this is due to browser bugs, I think 
/that in some situations CSS lacks design nous.

GI think that one of the reasons that CSS layout is being adopted very 
Eslowly (1 major site to date) is because it doesn't make it easy to 
Hrebuild your pages in the new syntax. Of course it's mainly because of 
Hbad browsers and the continuing use of legacy browsers that's to blame.

HI'm trying to put together a list of problem layouts that people often 
Fwant to build but can't do so simply. The worst one is positioning a 
Eblock element at the centre of the browser window. I know there are 
Flots of ways to achieve or almost achieve the required effect, using 
G100% tables, margin:auto; or other options, but these are non-trivial 
9solutions and use syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.

@If you have come across situations where CSS doesn't offer the 
Eexpressiveness you feel it should, please let me know either on- or 

off-list.

EI apologise if you are also a member of www-style and have received 
this request twice.

Thanks,

Ben


(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:45.256 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [143]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:02:51 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>

Hi everyone,

KI searched the list archives for an answer but couldn't find one, so it's 
$either well hidden or non-existent.

MI can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a global font size. 
IHere's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as IE6 in all 

cases)...

-On a page with no other styling, I did this:

      body {font-size: .7em}

MIn Mozilla, all my text is exactly the size I expected and wanted it to be. 
KIn IE6, there's no effect. The font size stays at the default 1em (100% / 
16px).

=So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:

      body {font-size: .7em}
      td {font-size: .7em}

MThis puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule text 
that Superman couldn't read.


KSo I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing 
Kis styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers - 
aren't they?....

"      (no body styling this time)
      td {font-size: .7em}

GThat looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a 
strong pair of glasses.


HAll I want is to set a global font size, and make other sizing changes 
'where necessary. So what's the secret?
U13:43:45.257 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [144]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:14:58 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] Problem layouts
<In-Reply-To: <022269AB-790A-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>
3Message-ID: <000001c30d2b$fb536fd0$42d5fea9@Estes>


> 
=> I'm trying to put together a list of problem layouts that 
> people often 
H> want to build but can't do so simply. The worst one is positioning a 
G> block element at the centre of the browser window. I know there are 
H> lots of ways to achieve or almost achieve the required effect, using 
I> 100% tables, margin:auto; or other options, but these are non-trivial 
;> solutions and use syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.
> 

GWhile I'm sure that you are about to get flamed by people, and rightly
6so, I just want to address one part of your position.

CYou stated in you thread above that margin:auto, was a non-trivial
:solution that uses syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.

"The CSS1 Spec specifically says :

F"Otherwise, if both 'margin-left' and 'margin-right' are 'auto', they
Ewill be set to equal values. This will center the element inside its

parent. "

GWhich means that it is exactly what it is intended to do, and with /2/
Hlines of code which could be simplified to /one/ line of code.  You set
Hmargin-left and margin-right to auto and it centers and that's how that
Gis accomplished.  If you are using other methods, then you are the one
Edoing it wrong not CSS.  That's "non-trivial"?...seems pretty simple
enough to me.

GOn another note, I find that my development efforts have been twice as
Ceasy as in traditional table layouts, and that most 'hacks' can be
Iavoided in many if not all circumstances by using a wee bit more code in
:your code.  You can review my "To hack or not to Hack" at
9http://www.bewb.org/archiveposts.asp?id=11, to read why.

FI feel (as the Lead Creative Artists and Lead Interface Developer for
Ethe company I work for) that I have much more freedom in design than
Hwhen I was faced with supporting legacy browsers.  I have intentionally
Dstepped up my designs because I know that with the power of CSS and
GXHTML, I can produce more vivid content in a more beatiful manner, all
Cwhile providing consistent renderings and with less code than ever
thought possible.

IOn one last note (and I said I was only addressing one point), there are
2quite a few "major" sites adopting CSS layouts.  

To name a few:
http://www.cingular.com 
http://www.search.yahoo.com 
http://www.pga.com 
http://www.wired.com 
http://www.espn.com


HWell anyway, I haven't found that there has been anything that I wanted
Ito create and couldn't because of the limitations of CSS and XHTML.  And
Hwith the additional support of CSS2 and then CSS3, we'll have even more
(to work with, and I for one can't wait!

Good luck to ya'

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
 


U13:43:45.257 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [145]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:17:39 -0500
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
<In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
3Message-ID: <000101c30d2c$5b0e6ce0$42d5fea9@Estes>


DThis is from the wiki http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsingEms

GA word of caution concerning IE. Be careful using ems. The most recent
Fversions of IE for Windows tend to flummox text with a font-size less
@than 1em ("0.5em", for instance). Percentages tend to work more
Gpredictably, and (for who knows what reason) are usually more accurate
H(possibly rounding errors?) than their em equivalents. Please note that
Ithis applies only to the font-size and line-height properties. All other
Cproperties for which ems are suitable (margins, padding, width and
Gheight, among others) are not so for percentages, since the latter are
Hcalculated according to the dimensions of parent elements. - ShawnAllen

H...and the other problem with EMs in IE is the resizing of them. If for
?instance you set the root element (either <body> or <html>) to
Ifont-size:1em, then just setting View > Text Size to "smaller" can cause
the text to become unreadable.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
 


> -----Original Message-----
-> From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
G> [mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Joel Young
'> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 8:03 PM
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
1> Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
> 
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
@> I searched the list archives for an answer but couldn't find 
> one, so it's 
&> either well hidden or non-existent.
> 
=> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a 
> global font size. 
@> Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as 
> IE6 in all 
> cases)...
> 
/> On a page with no other styling, I did this:
> 
>       body {font-size: .7em}
> 
>> In Mozilla, all my text is exactly the size I expected and 
> wanted it to be. 
A> In IE6, there's no effect. The font size stays at the default 
> 1em (100% / 
	> 16px).
> 
?> So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:
> 
>       body {font-size: .7em}
>       td {font-size: .7em}
> 
@> This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into 
> miniscule text 
> that Superman couldn't read.
> 
> 
?> So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since 
> all I'm doing 
>> is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in 
> all browsers - 
> aren't they?....
> 
$>       (no body styling this time)
>       td {font-size: .7em}
> 
I> That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a 
> strong pair of glasses.
> 
> 
;> All I want is to set a global font size, and make other 
> sizing changes 
)> where necessary. So what's the secret?
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
-> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] 
6> http://www.css-> discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> Supported 
> by evolt.org -- 
+> http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 


U13:43:45.257 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [146]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:55:42 +0930
Subject: [css-d] Content width
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
?	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net> <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
/Message-ID: <3EAC9126.6030101@adelaide.edu.au>

Steve Thomas wrote:

> ...
>
3> So there is an argument for using something like
>
'>     div.text { max-width:33em; ... }
>
E> to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of the 
> user's screen. 

HExperimentally, I've created a new ebook with a slight variation to my 
Hstandard style sheet, to see how this looks and works in practice. You 
Dcan see the result at http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/h/h27ro/

%The style sheet now reads (in part):

BODY {
-        margin-left: 3em; margin-right: 2em;
-        color: #000000; background: #ffffff;
}
/html>body { max-width:33em; margin:1em auto; }

EThe last line is the new bit, and this appears to work perfectly in 
DMozilla 1.3/Win. (Also prints beautifully.) It also displays OK on 
GIE6/Win, although the max-width doesn't work. Maybe "html>body" isn't 
Himplemented on IE6? (Can't find that browser compatibility chart right 
now -- too many bookmarks!)

HThis approach also means that it will display OK on NN4, which ignores 
the last line (I guess).

MI'd appreciate some feedback from those with Macs and/or different browsers.


	Regards,
Steve

-- 

Stephen Thomas, 
Senior Systems Analyst, 
University of Adelaide Library
UNIVERSITY OF ADELAIDE SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
'Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au 
2URL: http://www.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/

U13:43:45.257 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [147]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:26:22 -0500
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
<In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
3Message-ID: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>

 
<> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a
> global font size. 
@> Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as 
> IE6 in all 
> cases)...
> 

GI tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
7.1 on WinXP


<style type="text/css">
body,td {font-size:0.7em;}
	</style>


GBasically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
Hdoesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
Opera

Looks good in all of them.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org



U13:43:45.257 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [148]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:04:07 -0400
Subject: [css-d] Content width
0In-Reply-To: <3EAC9126.6030101@adelaide.edu.au>
7Message-ID: <003101c30d32$d59a2200$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

>  Steve Thomas :
"> <snip> Maybe "html>body" isn't 
> implemented on IE6? 

INope, IE ignores the html>body selector entirely... For sure on Win, and
Hif I remember correctly (which is always a gamble at this hour) also on
*Mac.  Reference the common Box Model Hack
6http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html.

--Josh

U13:43:45.257 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [149]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:10:16 -0400
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
=In-Reply-To: <000001c30d08$8ea98680$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>
7Message-ID: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Sam  Ellis (css-d) :
,> I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera, 
> Mac IE 5?
>  
@> Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
0> MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
>  
> Thanks ...
>  
.> ... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
>  
http://www.golfbreaks.com/

ICan't help with the Mac/Unix issues, sorry.  Hit your site with IE6 (Win
IXP) and thought it was a very sharp lookin' design!  Good work.  But hit
Hit with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
Ithe page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
need, lemme know.

--Josh

U13:43:45.263 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [150]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:16:35 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
;Message-ID: <D17FA29E-7927-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


7Looks good in Safari Beta 2 and Camino 0.7 on the Mac.

EIn IE 5 on OS X it looks good except the title area of the Featured 
IVenues portlet has gone awry, it is the height of the picture and fully 
Dcontains the image. I can provide a screenshot if you send me your 
;address (I joined the list after you posted your request).

Ben


FOn Monday, Apr 28, 2003, at 04:10 Europe/London, Josh Ambrutis wrote:

>
>
>> Sam  Ellis (css-d) :
,>> I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera,
>> Mac IE 5?
>>
A>> Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
1>> MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
>>
>> Thanks ...
>>
/>> ... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
>>
> http://www.golfbreaks.com/
>
G> Can't help with the Mac/Unix issues, sorry.  Hit your site with IE6 
> (Win
H> XP) and thought it was a very sharp lookin' design!  Good work.  But 
> hit
J> it with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
H> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if 
> you
> need, lemme know.
>
	> --Josh
>
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:45.263 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [151]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:29:33 +0900
Subject: [css-d] Content width
8In-Reply-To: <003101c30d32$d59a2200$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
=Message-ID: <A0FFF166-7929-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


>On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 12:04  PM, Josh Ambrutis wrote:

H> Nope, IE ignores the html>body selector entirely... For sure on Win, 
> and
J> if I remember correctly (which is always a gamble at this hour) also on
,> Mac.  Reference the common Box Model Hack
8> http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html.

GIE Mac does support html>body no problems. IE win does not understand 
the > child selector.

	Philippe
:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [152]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:31:16 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
4In-Reply-To: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

(At 11:26 PM 4/27/03, Jason Estes wrote:

H>I tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
>7.1 on WinXP
>
>
><style type="text/css">
>body,td {font-size:0.7em;}

></style>
>
>
H>Basically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
I>doesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
>Opera
>
>Looks good in all of them.



IFor some reason that's not working for me, and I'm using WinXP with the 
Lsame browser versions you listed.  I have the IE browser set to 'Smaller', 
Kand Moz at '100%', which I believe are their defaults. Or not? But still, 
Lresizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no 
clue.

JThe other thing is, and I should've mentioned this before, my tests were 
Gonly with no other styling in <body>, but for the actual page I'll be 
Kdoing, <body> will contain more than that, and I don't want the <td>'s to 
=have all those attributes. Sorry for not saying that before.

IIt's late where I am, so I'll pick this up tomorrow and see what's what.

Thanks!

Joel


U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [153]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:44:12 -0400
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
:	<5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
#Message-ID: <3EACA38C.2134@ij.net>

Joel Young wrote:
 
J> For some reason that's not working for me, and I'm using WinXP with the
M> same browser versions you listed.  I have the IE browser set to 'Smaller',
L> and Moz at '100%', which I believe are their defaults. Or not? But still,

FMoz defaults to 16px regardless of other settings. Moz font sizes are
Hnot impacted by system DPI setting except for the menu/chrome text, and
page text sized in points.

HIE defaults to medium. What medium (or other sizes) means to IE depends
Eon the system DPI setting, which defaults to 96. Medium at 96 DPI is
)16px. You can find other combinations at
;http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html

M> resizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no
> clue.

*Are you using an ancient Mozilla version?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [154]
=================
3From: webapprentice at onemain.com (Webapprentice)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:01:59 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
+Message-ID: <3EACA7B7.3070805@onemain.com>

Hello,

3I have a question about the use of width property.

8Look at this site in IE5.5+, Mozilla 1.0+, NS6.2+, etc.

+http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html

HThe middle white area, where there is a link to "See the style sheet," 
Iis not stretched all the way.  I'd like to stretch the white area so it 
?almost reaches the right white area but not colliding with it.

CI've tried "width: auto" and "width: 100%," but this doesn't work.

AI'm trying to mimic the final look with as much CSS as possible:
*http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/final.jpg

EYou can click the link "See the style sheet" to view the stylesheet.
!Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Stephen
U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [155]
=================
/From: nkaisare1 at hotmail.com (Niket Kaisare)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:20:40 +0000
;Subject: [css-d] Navigation links - list? (and Site Check)
6Message-ID: <Law14-F682aZcdjaS3600023087@hotmail.com>

Hi,

HI have four images (150*70px) as main navigation links and a list as a 
/sub-navigation. Currently, I have the links as
<div>
<a href=""><img></a>
#<ul><!-- List of sublinks --></ul>
<a href=""><img></a><br>
<a href=""><img></a><br>
<a href=""><img></a>
</div>

LI read on accessibility issues that there should be something other than a 
K<br> space or carriage return separating various links for accessibility. 
JHence I tried changing the main links also to a list. But the problem is 
'that in NS4.7, it gets displayed like:
  ---------
  | IMAGE |
* ---------
!(where * represents list marker)

HThis is no good because the display becomes confusing. It will be much 
better if display would be:
* ---------
  | IMAGE |
  ---------

+Second thing is that the page does a FOUC 
M(http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/fouc.asp) I tried the method mentioned in 
Athis article, but that didn't help... I still get FOUC in Opera.

URL for the specific page:
$http://atlanta.vibha.org/volunteer/
CSS for this page:
(http://atlanta.vibha.org/image/real.css

LAlso, this is my first project using CSS. So any suggestions for improving 
will be appreciated.

TIA
Niket

B_________________________________________________________________
<Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
1http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [156]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:21:23 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
,Message-ID: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>

HAnyone here that plays on blogshares has probably noticed already that 
GSeyed (the owner) changed the navigation images to text the other day 
G(most likely to speed up load-time).  This led to an experiment on my 
Ipart to see how much I could clean up the code.  I started from scratch 
Jto make the Blogshares stock page[1] and ended up with a version that is 
Gvalid XHTML 1.0 Strict, 10kb smaller (20kb smaller if you include the 
Hsupporting images/javascript), fluid-width, relative font sizes (I did 
Fwhat was easiest, perhaps not the best method, so don't go off on me 
Ilike that ems vs % thread), and more Netscape-friendly (it's still ugly 
2and not easy to use, but at least it's readable).

HI'm mainly looking for a browser check. I've got Firebird (yesterday's 
Fnightly) and IE6, but I need others... especially Macs.  I know that 
DIE/Mac has a huge horiz. scroll due to the stock ticker, but there 
Edoesn't seem to be any way to fix that without causing all kinds of 
other problems.

FIf you've got any comments on the layout unrelated to the browser or 
*CSS, let me know anyway (maybe offlist?).

I[Note: I do not work for Blogshares. Seyed hasn't even seen this layout 
Byet, although I emailed him just before sending this to the list]

--
Marshall Roch

[1] 
Lhttp://www.blogshares.com/blogs.php?blog=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogshares.com%2F

U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [157]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:43:24 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
-In-Reply-To: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
,References: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
,Message-ID: <3EACB16C.4020309@exclupen.com>

Marshall Roch wrote:
J> I'm mainly looking for a browser check. I've got Firebird (yesterday's 
H> nightly) and IE6, but I need others... especially Macs.  I know that 
F> IE/Mac has a huge horiz. scroll due to the stock ticker, but there 
G> doesn't seem to be any way to fix that without causing all kinds of 
> other problems.

4Easier to help me if I include a link, huh?  Oops..

-http://www.exclupen.com/projects/blogshares/

--
Marshall Roch

U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [158]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:48:39 -0800
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
,References: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
'Message-ID: <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>


Marshall,
HOn ie5.1.5mac the 'GO' button is shifted underneath the input field on 
Jyour search form. Also, the background is missing to the left of the top 
Fbanner leaving a blank white space. The ticker is missing completely.

IOn ns7.02mac the ticker is overlayed atop the blue 'Fantasy Blog Shares 
JMarket' rule and is unreadable. It also takes up so many cpu cycles that 
9its making typing this creep along slowly and painfully.
--
Tony
U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [159]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:24:17 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <000001c30d57$30f3b660$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


>  
> http://www.golfbreaks.com/

J> it with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
K> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
> need, lemme know.

Thanks for the heads up.

LI had only checked with Opera 6, and I think I changed the css for that bar
recently - since testing

Sam


U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [160]
=================
*From: sasha at amm.com.au (Sasha Gerrand)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:30:57 +1000
8Subject: [css-d] Re: Moovigation - a screenshot request
8In-Reply-To: <oproadf2zb98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>
-Message-ID: <BAD315D1.BFD0%sasha@amm.com.au>

Try these:

3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-camino1.jpg
3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-camino1.jpg

3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-safari1.jpg
3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-safari2.jpg

HTH - both on OS X 10.2.5

Cheers,
Sasha

--=AD--=AD--=AD--=AD--
Sasha Gerrand
sasha@amm.com.au
+61 425 745 207

EOM=20

MNOTICE - This message and any attached files may contain information that i=
s
Lconfidential and/or subject of legal privilege intended only for use by the
Hintended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient or the person
Mresponsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, be advise=
d
Ithat you have received this message in error and that any dissemination,
Jcopying or use of this message or attachment is strictly forbidden, as is
Mthe disclosure of the information therein. If you have received this messag=
e
Fin error please notify the sender immediately and delete the message.

-> From: The Moose <moose@literarymoose.info>
#> Organization: LiteraryMoose.info
%> Reply-To: moose@literarymoose.info
(> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:41:52 -0500
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
6> Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
>=20
	> Hello,
>=20
L> I have played a bit with the display of the unordered lists when they are
L> used for navigation of a logical sequence of pages, and would like to ask
C> for screenshots from the following browsers: *Safari*, *Camino*,
> *Konqueror*.
>=20
F> There are two pages (I'd like to get screenshots for both from each
> browser):
>=20
=> http://www.literarymoose.info/=3D/destroy/moovigation.html
>=20
E> http://www.literarymoose.info/=3D/destroy/moovigation-variant.html
>=20
G> The first features generated content (with entities only) hidden via
L> html[xmlns] method, the second does not. Mozilla displays &#xxxx; instead
M> of the character on the second page (I don't know why). Opera7.1 behaves =
in
> both cases.
>=20
F> The size of screenshots does not matter, I'll be watching my inbox.
>=20
> thank you in advance,
>=20
	> Wojtek
>=20
> p.s. styles embedded.
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>=20
U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [161]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:34:47 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <000101c30d58$af49ac30$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


J> .. with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
K> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
> need, lemme know.

> -- Josh

;Just downloaded Opera 7.1 and I cannot see the problem ...

HIt looks as if your version of Opera is looking at the print stylesheet
E(try print previewing). What version are you using? It would be very
Guseful to see screenshots. Does anyone else know about Opera rendering
#css from a media=print stylesheet?

1.. maybe it is my use of the !important rule...?

FThe only issue I can see is that the text on the Features Venues goes
Cover the Request Brochure images (because of position: relative to
avoid the ie6 peekaboo bug)

Thanks

Sam

U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [162]
=================
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:42:17 +0200
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
4In-Reply-To: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
3References: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
)Message-ID: <oprobw0rt0yoq9u9@localhost>

JOn Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:26:22 -0500, Jason Estes <ckestes@bewb.org> wrote:

=>> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a
K>> global font size. Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the 
 >> same as IE6 in all cases)...

HIn Opera 7 and MSIE, you'll get behavior like Mozilla when you trigger 
KStandards mode. In Quirks mode rendering, font-sizes don't inherit into a 
Htables... In Opera 5-6 and MSIE 4-5.5 you are stuck, as these browsers 
don't have a Standards mode.

I> I tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
> 7.1 on WinXP
>
> <style type="text/css">
> body,td {font-size:0.7em;}
> </style>
>
I> Basically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
J> doesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
> Opera
>
> Looks good in all of them.

MIt shouldn't work that way according to the specs (TD fonts should be sized 
Lat .49 of the default size...), so it will probably break in Opera 7, MSIE 
H6 and Mozilla when you trigger Standards mode. But if you make sure to 
Ktrigger Quirks mode, this might be a compromise because it will also work 
in MSIE 4-5.5 and Opera 4-6.

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
@ making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com M
U13:43:45.264 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [163]
=================
4From: design at q7design.demon.co.uk (David Leader)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:35:04 +0100
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <p04330100bad1fbd43502@[194.222.231.193]>

DOn the topic of Safari uptake on MacOS X, I'd just like to mention 
Fthat at the moment Safari is the only Mac browser that supports Java 
C1.4. (I was suprised when I read this on a Mac Java list but I've 
Etested it and find that currently IE and Mozilla do not support the 
EJava 1.4 plugin) This may have nothing to do with css, but it has a 
Elot to do with the sort of reasons Mac users might switch to Safari 
Band why I presume Apple decided to have its own browser, i.e. to 
Densure Mac users were not dependent on third parties for access to 
$web content (e.g. on-line banking).

<It is clearly important from a css standpoint that as much 
Fconstructive criticism as possible is brought to bear to ensure that 
ESafari has good css support. One imagines Apple and the Safari will 
be receptive to this.

David
8From rick at starskiweb.co.uk  Mon Apr 28 09:10:55 2003
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:10:55 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
>In-Reply-To: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
=References: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
0Message-ID: <3EACE20F.6030806@starskiweb.co.uk>

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

G> Your <div id="myclear"> is empty, except for an absolute positioned 
J> image (which is taken out of the document flow any way). I deleted the 
L> 'width' on your #myclear, and added a non-breaking space in the div, and 
9> then your layout worked out exactly as in Mozilla 1.4.

FThanks for the advice Philippe, but I haven't managed to get mine to 
work using the above advice:-

+http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.2.htm

,The left border is still missing on IE5 mac

Iunless the person who is testing this for me has a different version of 
	mac IE5?
U13:43:45.265 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [164]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:46:49 +0900
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
1In-Reply-To: <3EACE20F.6030806@starskiweb.co.uk>
=Message-ID: <F34BB1E0-7955-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 05:10  PM, Rick Hurst wrote:

H> Thanks for the advice Philippe, but I haven't managed to get mine to 
 > work using the above advice:-
>
-> http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.2.htm
>
.> The left border is still missing on IE5 mac

,Comparing your stylesheet, and what I used:
#document-wrap {
	border-top:12px solid black;
	border-left:12px solid black;
	/*height: 100%;*/
}

II had commented out the height declaration, I should've mentioned it, I 
guess.

	Philippe
:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:45.265 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [165]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:19:14 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
3References: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
0 <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428061642.00bcf118@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>


>Joel Young wrote:
O> > resizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no

> > clue.


(At 12:44 AM 4/28/03, Felix Miata wrote:

+>Are you using an ancient Mozilla version?



NNo. I'm using 1.3... I use the most recent release of any browser I test on. 
U13:43:45.265 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [166]
=================
,From: tarquin at planetunreal.com (tarquin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:37:55 +0100
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
0Message-ID: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>

*what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
&as seen here to make rounded corners:

Hhttp://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

Gshould we avoid these because they are non-standard? (the same way we 
Eshould be avoiding IE-only stuff like scrollbar, filters, & marquee)

*is there a reference for these somewhere?

U13:43:45.265 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [167]
=================
,From: tarquin at planetunreal.com (tarquin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:47:05 +0100
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0References: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0Message-ID: <3EACF899.6050902@planetunreal.com>

tarquin wrote:

>
>
,> is there a reference for these somewhere?

found something:

Mhttp://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/nsextensions.htm
:-)

& started a page on the wiki

U13:43:45.265 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [168]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:24:32 -0400
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
=In-Reply-To: <000101c30d58$af49ac30$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>
7Message-ID: <002901c30d78$be93a6d0$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Sam Ellis (css-d) : 
=> Just downloaded Opera 7.1 and I cannot see the problem ...
> 
@> It looks as if your version of Opera is looking at the print 
> stylesheet
G> (try print previewing). What version are you using? It would be very
I> useful to see screenshots. Does anyone else know about Opera rendering
%> css from a media=print stylesheet?

)http://portalsmith.com/golfbreaks-ss.jpg

GOpera 7.02, Win XP.  Did a print preview, and while some of the layout
Gchanged, it didn't change much... Text links still unreadable, but the
?content switched from anchored left to centered, and the green
&backgrounds were dropped.  HTH a bit.

--Josh

U13:43:45.265 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [169]
=================
#From: liorean at f2o.org (liorean)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:55:49 +0200
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0References: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>

tarquin wrote:
,> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
(> as seen here to make rounded corners:
J> http://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

CThere are three reasons for vendor specific properties and values:
F1. Implementing a not-yet-standard css property, such as css3 rounded
	corners.
B2. Allowin the specification of behaviors and handling in css for
Ebehaviors that you can not for the momemnt achieve with your current
supported base of standards.
A3. Adding new functionality that neither can be defined in other
Ftechnologies for the web or is upcoming in an upcoming new or updated

standard.

EIn moz, we see quite a few cases of 1 and some of 2. I suppose there
:might be some 3 as well, but if so I don't know about it.
=In op7, we see 2 alone, from what I can tell - if their "web
4specifications supported in opera" page is correct.
/In ie, we see mainly a bunch of 3 and a few 2.
GIn saf/konq, I have no idea what may or may not exist when it comes to
4this, but I would think the engine is rather clean.

I> should we avoid these because they are non-standard? (the same way we 
G> should be avoiding IE-only stuff like scrollbar, filters, & marquee)

%You should stay clearly away from 3.
 You should consider avoiding 2.
%I see no reason to stay away from 1.

IYou should use 1 in combination with the W3C upcoming if you wish to use
that feature.

,> is there a reference for these somewhere?

1Oh, they are spread over the vendors using them.
Opera:
R<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/operaextensions.htm>
9Opera 7: <http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/#xml-css-link>
	Mozilla:
l<http://unstable.elemental.com/mozilla/build/latest/mozilla/dom/dox/interfacensIDOMNSCSS2Properties.html>, 

O<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/nsextensions.htm>
Microsoft:
I<http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/css/reference/attributes.asp>

FThere are also a few that MSDN doesn't contain any documentation for,
<like the expression(jsExpression) syntax. (It only contains
Idocumentation for the getExpression, setExpression and removeExpression,
Cand this document is about the best I can find about expression():
G<http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/recalc.asp>)

-- 
&liorean <mailto:liorean@user.bip.net>

HViewStyles, ViewScripts, ToggleStyles and GraphicsInfo bookmarklets and
)Theme Switcher, Cookies Handler scripts:
#<http://liorean.web-graphics.com/>

U13:43:45.268 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [170]
=================
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:52:03 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
(	<004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL>
4Message-ID: <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>

Hi Al,

>
> Here're a couple more:
G> http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
> problematic on Mac)

Msorry to disappoint you, but your menue doesn't work as intended on MSIE 5.0
Jon W2k. The menue just scrolls with the rest of the page. no fixed menue.
unfortunately.

greetings from germany,

Jens Grochtdreis
U13:43:45.269 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [171]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:04:11 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <002901c30d78$be93a6d0$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <001301c30d7e$4ba8cd20$6300a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


+> http://portalsmith.com/golfbreaks-ss.jpg
I> Opera 7.02, Win XP.  Did a print preview, and while some of the layout
I> changed, it didn't change much... Text links still unreadable, but the

Kthe links are meant to be small - this is for printing and if they are too
Jbig they much up the entire site (and take up too much screen realestate)
Kand as most people do not want to read them, they are in fine print - only
Iif the person wants to go to the page ... probably me being too hi-tech!

Glooks like Opera 7.02 is using all the !important css in the print.css
Estylesheet throughout the entire media range, instead of print only.

?I'm going try to download 7.02 to test, if not will post again

Cheers
Sam

U13:43:45.269 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [172]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:09:39 -0300
.Subject: (resend) Re: [css-d] ems or percent?
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

=(I think the email below may have gotten lost in the shuffle
'over the weekend, so I'm resending it.
8If I've broken any etiquette by doing so, I apologize.)



!At 09:20 PM 4/26/03, Mike wrote:
><snip>
N>On the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
J>your opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
H>settings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
>users, most of the time?
>
>Mike
>Edinburgh, Scotland




LYes! This is what my original question was about, and I'm glad you brought 
Lit back around, Mike. Hopefully someone will have an answer for us. In the 
Kmeantime, let's see if I understand a few things.  Someone please tell me 
<if I'm even close to knowing what I'm talking about.... :-)

===============
Scenario 1:
AAssume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}

?This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
#of the browser's default. Yes? No?
===============
Scenario 2:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 1em}

AAll text on the page will still be 80% of the browser's default,
=because basically 1em = 100%, and I'm only setting it to 20%
$less (which is 80%).  Right? Wrong?
===============
Scenario 3:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 0.9em}

:Okay, NOW the text will actually be just under 80% of the
:browser default, because it is 9/10ths of 80% of default.
===============
Scenario 4:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 100%}

=Again, the text remains at only 80% of default, because I've
Cset it to be 100% of the body font size (not that I would do that,
it's just for example)
===============
One more... Scenario 5:
body {font-size: 100%}
0.classname {font-size: 1em} or {font-size: 80%}

FHere, the text will either be the full browser default, or 80% of it.
Right?
===============


HIf all the above are correct, then it's just as easy to set the body at
D100% all the time, and simply use smaller percentages for different
sizes.
BThat, or do body {font-size: 100%}, and use various em sizes, and
Ceverything should work out - keeping the sizes within a reasonable
range, of course.

8Did I reach home base, or am I somewhere in left field?


Joel
U13:43:45.269 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [173]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:11:27 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234D@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

HCorrect me if I'm wrong, but min-height isn't supported in IE 5 on Mac,
right?

BIn that case, how do I get an element to adapt its size after its
	content,
8but that it will still be a specified height otherwise.

BFor example, I want a DIV to be at least 20 px height, but if its
content is more,=20
Fthen I want it to adapt its size (and the whole document's flow after
that).

?This works with min-height:20px; in Opera, Gecko etc, and with
height:20px; in IE on PC.
GBut in IE 5 on Mac the height is only 20 px no matter the content (and
if the content is
0more, it just flows outside of the element...).

Any solutions for this?


/Robert
1From rijk at opera.com  Mon Apr 28 13:13:59 2003
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:13:59 +0200
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
(In-Reply-To: <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>
KReferences: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com> <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>
)Message-ID: <oprob9llpayoq9u9@localhost>

EOn Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:55:49 +0200, liorean <liorean@f2o.org> wrote:

> tarquin wrote:
->> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
)>> as seen here to make rounded corners:
K>> http://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

GThis page looks fine (maybe a bit boxy) in Opera 7. No harm done, IMO.

E> There are three reasons for vendor specific properties and values:
H> 1. Implementing a not-yet-standard css property, such as css3 rounded
> corners.
E> 2. Allowing the specification of behaviors and handling in css for
G> behaviors that you can not for the momemnt achieve with your current
> supported base of standards.
C> 3. Adding new functionality that neither can be defined in other
H> technologies for the web or is upcoming in an upcoming new or updated
> standard.
[..]
'> You should stay clearly away from 3.
"> You should consider avoiding 2.
'> I see no reason to stay away from 1.
>
K> You should use 1 in combination with the W3C upcoming if you wish to use
> that feature.

IFor both 1, 2 and 3 it is important that the page doesn't depend on the 
Inon-standard property to be useful and good looking. But even when they 
Kdon't cause problems in other browsers, it is best to avoid such features 
Lif you want to build robust public pages. Even in category 1, the property 
Kmight change a bit before it gets into the standard, and it might be also 
Kproblematic when someone else has to take over the maintainance of a page.

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
> making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com
U13:43:45.269 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [174]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:30:01 +0900
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234D@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
=Message-ID: <220371DF-7975-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


=On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 09:11  PM, Robert Nyman wrote:

J> Correct me if I'm wrong, but min-height isn't supported in IE 5 on Mac,
	> right?

Nope, doesn't work in IE5 mac.
>
D> In that case, how do I get an element to adapt its size after its
> content,
:> but that it will still be a specified height otherwise.
>
D> For example, I want a DIV to be at least 20 px height, but if its
> content is more,
H> then I want it to adapt its size (and the whole document's flow after
	> that).
>

BUsing the intrinsic (is that the word ?) height of the element ? 
?Without a real sample it is a bit difficult to say, of course.
;div {border:1px solid #000; padding: 2px, font-size:12px; 
3line-height:14px;} should give something you want.

Or do I miss something ?

	Philippe


:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:45.269 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [175]
=================
#From: eoghan at redry.net (eoghan)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:49:01 +0100
 Subject: [css-d] select problem
)Message-ID: <3EAD233D.3000203@redry.net>

hello,
Di am referring to a problem that occurs in particular with ie5+ on 
windows. the
J<select> form element is apparently described as a "windowed elements"...
Eso this means that they should paint themselves on top of all other 
elements on a
Hpage. so, when using dropdown menus, selects will appear through them. 
this behaviour
Fdoesnt occur in nn7/moz1+ or firebird0.5. however, these browsers do 
have problems
Ewhen the "multiple" attribute is applied to the select, or when the 
select is opened.
Di was wondering if anyone else had come across this issue. using a 
z-index in this
Fcase will not work. and apart from avoiding this problem, has anyone 
come up with
&any workarounds for this issue. for a
small example, see here:

-http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/css/001.html

thanks

U13:43:45.269 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [176]
=================
.From: moose at literarymoose.info (The Moose)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:45:20 -0500
4Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
.In-Reply-To: <3EAD1DF2.1020700@jeugdhuisx.be>
-References: <3EAD1DF2.1020700@jeugdhuisx.be>
7Message-ID: <oproca1u1m98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>

M> You'd have to encode the entities with the \xxxx values. I think they are 
 > in hex, but am not 100% sure.

MWell, thank you kindly, my good sir! You have helped me more than you would 
Jthink. I have now made the variant obsolete, and rewrote the entities in 
Mhex (eg. content: "\xxxx", " ";). Now I must start rewriting where thus far 
I had misused it.

grazie,

Wojtek

Hp.s. I now have screenshots complete. Many thanks to everyone who sent 
theirs.
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Mon Apr 28 13:57:44 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:57:44 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234E@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

5> line-height:14px;} should give something you want.
> Or do I miss something ?

'Line-height won't help in this case...

Well, take this example:

div.levelItem{
	position:relative;
	width:100px;
	border:1px solid black;	=09
	background:#ffffa2;
	min-height:20px;
}

"and then for IE on PC I add this:

div.levelItem{
	height:20px;
}

HBut if the content is, for instance, a full sentence, I want the DIV to
expand its height
2according to the space that the sentence takes up
I(which works with min-height, and in IE on PC it resizes automatically).

2How do I get that kind of resizing for IE on Mac?


/Robert

U13:43:45.269 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [177]
=================
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:02:51 -0400
Subject: [css-d] Flash & CSS ?
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>


Dear all,

.I was asked the following question last week:

D"Can you use FLASH in the same way as you can with images in CSS to
7provide background and/or rollover effects for links".

IMy first reaction was no as (I believe) FLASH has to be the top layer of
Da web page and also how would you code the EMBED statement?  Then I
Dthought I'd ask here as CSS is still fairly new to me and maybe I'm
missing something.


Comments?

Thanks,

Dave
U13:43:45.269 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [178]
=================
3From: web2k2 at premonition.co.uk (Geoff Sheridan)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:39:17 +0100
Subject: [css-d] Flash & CSS ?
In-Reply-To: 
K <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>
References: 
K <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>
2Message-ID: <p0510030dbad2ddc8ef7c@[192.168.8.3]>

E>"Can you use FLASH in the same way as you can with images in CSS to
8>provide background and/or rollover effects for links".
>
J>My first reaction was no as (I believe) FLASH has to be the top layer of
E>a web page and also how would you code the EMBED statement?  Then I
E>thought I'd ask here as CSS is still fairly new to me and maybe I'm
>missing something.

?Your first reaction was right. Unless you did something like :
a:hover object {display:none;}
Din which case you can probably hide/show flash content on rollover.
6I haven't tested and certainly do not recommend this.
FWhat's the point, when flash contains it's own rollover events which 
)are likely to give a much better result?
AIt would be nice to be able to have flash content as background 
Bimages 'tho. I can imagine this being egregiously misused but it 
;would be very handy for all sorts of great visual effects.

Geoff
;From moronicbajebus at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 28 14:48:36 2003
1From: moronicbajebus at yahoo.com (Seamus Leahy)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:48:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
AMessage-ID: <20030428134836.91265.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com>


.--- tarquin <tarquin@planetunreal.com> wrote:
,> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?

7I think the -moz rules were created for effects in the
3user interface of Mozilla because XUL (the Mozilla
interface) uses CSS. 



#__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
/The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Mon Apr 28 14:51:43 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:51:43 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234F@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

!> div {height: 20px;} /*IE win*/
?> html>body div {min-height:20px; height:auto;} /*all others*/

EBut that doesn't solve my problem with IE on Mac. I have no problems
with
8getting it to work for IE on PC and all other browsers.

DThe only one that it doesn't work in is in IE on Mac, which doesn't
understand min-height,
Ghence it doesn't get the element to expand its size accordingly to the
!text, not even with height:auto.


/Robert
U13:43:45.269 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [179]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:12:39 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052FE@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

7> The only one that it doesn't work in is in IE on Mac


My bad...
8Using height:auto and line-height solved the problem...

/Robert
8From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Mon Apr 28 15:48:12 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:48:12 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] Redesign Problem
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C7420F@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

LI have got a problem with a redesign and am wondering if anyone can help me
out.

MI have a class that defines the look of a div and I apply it to each section
Cof the navigation bar on the left.  Oddly enough, the border color
Dcharacteristics are not being displayed on the home page (the other
Lcharacteristics do work), but do work on other pages.  The code "should" be
Lthe same, with the exception of no active "Home" link on the home page (the
Monly real code difference I can tell is that the other pages are being drawn
Kvia an include statement, but doing so on the home page still exhibits the

problem).

HThe home page is located at http://test.usna.com/, and if you click the
MEvents link you will see how it should be displayed.  I've looked and looked
Kat this and just can't figure out why the home page is not being displayed

properly.

Thanks for looking -

george
U13:43:45.270 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [180]
=================
3From: christopher at christopher.org (Christopher)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:24:18 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] ANNC: 50+ Headings
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052FE@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
9Message-ID: <BAD2BFE2.10978%christopher@christopher.org>

	Hi, all,

@Headings in Web pages--marked up with h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, or h6
Melements=8B-help the reader determine the purpose of sections in content. It
Halso does one other thing: it helps the reader judge if the material is
something they want to read.

JThe only problem is that the default rendering of those headings is often
visually bland.

KIn order to help people create better designed headings, I've released the
KCSS resource, 50+ Headings, where you can see up to fifty headings designs
and their variations.

JYou can submit their own heading variations as well--which represents the
"plus" in the title.

3< http://www.cssbook.com/resources/css/headings/ >


Best,
Christopher Schmitt
?  Author, "Designing CSS Web Pages" -- http://www.cssbook.com/
>  Web Design Specialist -- http://www.christopherschmitt.com/
U13:43:45.270 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [181]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:35:36 -0700
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
CMessage-ID: <OFD278A69D.7CC3E6CA-ON88256D16.00545AA2@capgroup.com>


Joel Young wrote:

?> So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:
>
>       body {font-size: .7em}
>       td {font-size: .7em}
>
I> This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule
text
> that Superman couldn't read.
>
>
L> So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing

L> is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers -

> aren't they?....
>
$>       (no body styling this time)
>       td {font-size: .7em}
>
H> That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a
> strong pair of glasses.

Welcome, Joel!

There are two tricks here:

H1) IE does not inherit font sizes through the table tag, but the td tag
Ldoes inherit correctly. Instead of the body/td style combo above, try this:

    body {font-size: 70%}
    table {font-size: 100%}

JThis tells IE to inherit the font size through the table, which will then
Eallow the td fonts to size correctly. It also doesn't cause any side
Leffects in more compliant browsers, because 100% of 100% is, well, 100%. If
Lyou have reasons to change font sizes for specific td's, this also lets you
Gdo so without worrying about clobbering the browser compatibility fix.

H2) Jason Estes mentioned the issue with setting font sizes in ems -- it
Icauses IE to do strange things when the browser is set to anything other
Lthan "Medium". I can't agree more strongly, with respect with the body font
Hsize. Basically, IE will misbehave if you use ems as the font-size that
2everything else is relative to, so something like

    body {font-size: 0.7em}
    cite {font-size: 0.9em}

Kwill shrink to unreadable proportions. If, however, you set your outermost
Lfont-size using percents, you can then make all other font sizes in ems, if
2you prefer reading them that way. In other words,

    body {font-size: 70%}
    cite (font-size: 0.9em}

will behave correctly.

HTH,

MikeL
U13:43:45.270 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [182]
=================
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:46:41 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
5In-Reply-To: <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
P	<004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL> <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>
/Message-ID: <3EAD4CE1.9010008@star-chaser.com>

Jens Grochtdreis wrote:
	> Hi Al,
> 
> 
>>Here're a couple more:
G>>http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
>>problematic on Mac)
> 
> 
O> sorry to disappoint you, but your menue doesn't work as intended on MSIE 5.0
L> on W2k. The menue just scrolls with the rest of the page. no fixed menue.
> unfortunately.
> 
> greetings from germany,
> 
> Jens Grochtdreis

@Why not take the time to read the material before posting? The 
Cinformation on the page makes no mention of it working in IE5 Win.

<quote>
B"It will work as intended in MSIE5-MAC, MSIE6-PC, Netscape 6.2+, 
GNetscape 7, Mozilla 1x, and Opera5+. It will degrade nicely in lesser 
browsers."
	</quote>

Gary

U13:43:45.270 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [183]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:13:50 -0400
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
*In-Reply-To: <oprob9llpayoq9u9@localhost>
5Message-ID: <BAD2CB7E.53E2B%chris@placenamehere.com>

Bon 4/28/03 8:13 AM, Rijk van Geijtenbeek at rijk@opera.com wrote:

> 
J> For both 1, 2 and 3 it is important that the page doesn't depend on the
J> non-standard property to be useful and good looking. But even when they
L> don't cause problems in other browsers, it is best to avoid such features
M> if you want to build robust public pages. Even in category 1, the property
L> might change a bit before it gets into the standard, and it might be also
M> problematic when someone else has to take over the maintainance of a page.

EI'd like reiterate the point about "change a bit" as there's nothing
Dstopping the VND in question not for changing the property at will.

FI'll take the -moz- extensions as an example. Those that are there to
Fprovide an implementation of the spec before its a recommendation are
Iexpected to change. Because the spec may change there is no promise of a
Ldirect translation from "-moz-property" to "property". When "property" gets
Gfinalized and support is in the browser -moz-property and property may
Iactually conflict so if you think you're smart by sneaking "property" in
Itheir for forward compatibility expect to have to edit your pages anyway
=(although I don't know what the odds of this happening are).

LThere is no promise of backwards compatibility within the extension itself.
A real example this time:

MThere was once a time before bug 195883 where -moz-opacity would accept both
D%age units and floating point values between 0 & 1. Well, we're now
Apost-195883 and %ages don't work anymore. Sucks to be anyone who
Kexperimented with them in the past only to have long forgotten demos break
(me included).

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:45.270 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [184]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:55:36 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>

�Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.

! 1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
 3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
 4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
 5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
/From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Apr 28 17:55:50 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:55:50 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304280947420.26619-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

4On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Ian Hickson (that's me) wrote:
+> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
>>
B>> The only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is
D>> "screen", so /technically/ other media types would never see the
>> embedded @media stuff.
>
I> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has delegated
I> authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS working group, who has
*> decided to change the default to "all".
>
G> Unfortunately I can't find a public reference to this decision. I'll
> look into it.

0I've found a formal reference to this decision:

c   http://hades.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/voyager-issues/HTML-4.01?id=528;expression=screen;user=guest

EThat's the relevant entry in the HTML working group issues database.

HTH,
-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
4From afternoon at uk2.net  Mon Apr 28 18:15:24 2003
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:15:24 +0100
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
;Message-ID: <000B1247-799D-11D7-88C8-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


DObviously this is not the complete answer, but I've had my copy of 
2Safari confused for the mythical NS 5 before now.

Ben


FOn Monday, Apr 28, 2003, at 17:55 Europe/London, Bill Creswell wrote:

G> Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is 
I> that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.
>
">  1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91
!>  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33
 >  3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10
>  4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8
>  5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7
>
> Bill Creswell
> Helpdesk/Webmaster
> Van Eerden Distribution
> http://www.vaneerden.com
> (616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:45.270 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [185]
=================
+From: dnelson at netbank.com (Dave Nelson)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:02:07 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OMessage-ID: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBA5@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>

KI think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 6.1
0was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x

-----Original Message-----
2From: Bill Creswell [mailto:BillC@VanEerden.com] 
&Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 12:56 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?


IWebtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that
Btracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.

! 1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
 3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
 4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
 5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
5From me at chrismcleod.net  Mon Apr 28 19:21:28 2003
+From: me at chrismcleod.net (Chris McLeod)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:21:28 +0100
ISubject: [css-d] a div that is at least the full height of the window...
FMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030428185406.00b18cd0@mail.qawebhosting.com>

MI've been trying to create a ALA style layout for a site template. This bit 
Jis all simple enough... However, I need the main content area to stretch 
Hthe full height of the window at the very least. The content area is a 
Mdifferent colour from the page background, and it looks a bit silly as just 
a block in the upper corner.

JI've tried height and min-height equal to 100% or auto, but neither have 
Cworked at all, if the positioning is done with floats or relative 
Kpositioning. If I set the positioning to absolute, it works but it forces 
-scroll bars, which is obviously undesirable.

LIs it possible to have a floated div fill the entire height of the window? 
KOr will I have to create the effect using a background image (which is my 
backup plan...)


Thanks,


Chris.
U13:43:45.270 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [186]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:26:41 +0100
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
0Message-ID: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>

HIs there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without 
%having to specifically overide them?

GWe are doing some work on a content management system interface where 
Jstyles have already been applied to selectors such as <p> and we want to 
C  "reset" them for certain situations without editing the default 
stylesheet.

Be.g. if the styles already applied in the default stylesheet are 
something like:-

)p {font-size:2em;color:red;margin:20px;}

:and in our custom interface we want to use something like

G#mystyle p {(ignore all styles already applied to p without overiding 
them one by one)}
U13:43:45.270 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [187]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:51:15 -0500
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
0References: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
7Message-ID: <003901c30db7$25e162d0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

I> Is there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without
'> having to specifically overide them?


MYou can use the specificity in CSS to override the values.  So if the values
)are originally set with p {declarations}
Jyou can use body p{declarations} which has a higher specificity.  You can
3replace body with whatever the parent selector is.

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


U13:43:45.270 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [188]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:41:56 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>

L>I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 6.1
1>was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x

{Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4 (which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent string).\

Bill
<From svendtofte at svendtofte.com  Mon Apr 28 20:01:35 2003
1From: svendtofte at svendtofte.com (Svend Tofte)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:01:35 +0200
<Subject: SV: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
8In-Reply-To: <003901c30db7$25e162d0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
EMessage-ID: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>

JYou'd still have to override all the individual rules, no? Otherwise they
would cascade in.

D> You can use the specificity in CSS to override the values.  So if
> the values
+> are originally set with p {declarations}
L> you can use body p{declarations} which has a higher specificity.  You can
5> replace body with whatever the parent selector is.
U13:43:45.270 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [189]
=================
#From: ksoh at colby.edu (Karen Oh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:18:15 -0400
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
8In-Reply-To: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
7References: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
6Message-ID: <a05111b0dbad32e3aed12@[137.146.196.147]>


(>http://blogstreetjournal.com/index.php

Hi,
 not sure if you got feedback. .

Mac OS 9.2

IE5
Fonts are teeny
D3-column layout, 1st and 2nd col touch, 2nd and 3rd do not (have a 
little gutter between them).

02nd col is not vertically aligned with 1 and 3.

NN4.7
:Not that legible--degrades poorly, overlapping text, etc.

NN7
;Looks Great! (Fonts may be a little bigger. . . like 12px)

hth,
karen
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Mon Apr 28 20:19:31 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:19:31 -0500
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
7Message-ID: <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> You'd still have to override all the individual rules, no? Otherwise they
> would cascade in.
>


2In the original email he said they were set up as

p {declarations}

and wanted something like

#mysite p {declarations}

Kbut instead of applying an ID which would require modifying the markup, he
could just use a selector like

J#wrapper p {declarations} where #wrapper is already the <div> surrounding
Mthe content area. of if he wanted to apply the styles to all the p's then he

could use

Dbody p {declarations} which would apply to all the p's on the page.

GIt's hard to account for specific circumstances of inheritance without
Iseeing the code though.  Maybe Rick could provide us some sample of what

he's got.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

U13:43:45.271 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [190]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:16:29 -0400
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
1In-Reply-To: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
0References: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
4Message-ID: <17715762453.20030428151629@mrclay.org>

6Monday, April 28, 2003, 2:26:41 PM, Rick Hurst wrote:
LRH> Is there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without 
)RH> having to specifically overide them?

BNo, *however*, you can use a copy of Mozilla's HTML.css file (the
Gbrowser's default stylesheet) as a guide to help you return properties
Cto their original values.  If you know a property was set and that
;property can have a value of "inherit", set it to inherit.

JRH> We are doing some work on a content management system interface where
%RH> styles have already been applied

GIf a stylesheet is out of your control, it's out of your control.  You
Ecan disable a stylesheet with javascript, but this isn't a solution.
FYour situation is similar to writing a user stylesheet - In your case
Hthe author is your CMS.  The only way is to redefine all the properties
you need control over.

FThis is another good reason to write stylesheets to take advantage of
Dinheritance.  It easier for everyone to write stylesheets to extend
the existing one.

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
U13:43:45.271 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [191]
=================
0From: lists at dramatic.co.nz (Richard Grevers)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:45:36 +1200
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>
IReferences: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>
)Message-ID: <oprocuiajczs1r4a@localhost>

IOn Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:41:56 -0400, Bill Creswell <BillC@VanEerden.com> 
!gave utterance to the following:

K>> I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 
>> 6.1
3>> was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x
>
J> Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4 
6> (which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent string).\
>
JOr any other Mozilla from around 0.5 onwards - False reports of Netscape 
:5.0 have been cropping up in stats for a year or two now.

-- 
HUsing M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
7From gary at star-chaser.com  Mon Apr 28 20:54:02 2003
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:54:02 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
IReferences: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
/Message-ID: <3EAD86DA.9090706@star-chaser.com>

Bill Creswell wrote:
�> Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.
> 
#>  1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
">  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
!>  3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
>  4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
>  5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 
> 
Elooks like your logs are identifying Mozilla as Netscape, All gecko 
Fbased browsers id themselves as mozilla/5.0 unless they have been re 
Ibranded. you have to look at the whole string to determine what browser 
it is.

example netscape 7.0 string
CMozilla/5.0 (windows; U; NT4.0; en-us) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0

A mozilla string
:  Mozilla/5.001 (windows; U; NT4.0; en-us) Gecko/25250101

IIf they have been re branded then they will still use Mozilla and gecko 
in their string.

C  Mozilla/9.876 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i686, en) Gecko/25250101 
 Netscape/5.432b1 (C-MindSpring)


HTH
Gary


Gary Bland
StarChaser Web Architecture
http://star-chaser.com
 Building Tomorrow's World Today
U13:43:45.271 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [192]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:08:15 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
(In-Reply-To: <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>
GReferences: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com> <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>
,Message-ID: <3EAD8A2F.4080603@exclupen.com>

Tony Bounds wrote:

> Marshall,
J> On ie5.1.5mac the 'GO' button is shifted underneath the input field on 
L> your search form. Also, the background is missing to the left of the top 
H> banner leaving a blank white space. The ticker is missing completely.

4I'm at a loss to why that background isn't working.

 This was the rule for that div:


#header {
padding-right: 10px;
9background: url('images/logo_bg.gif') top left repeat-x;
text-align: right;
}

8I just changed the 's to "s, let me know if that helps.

K> On ns7.02mac the ticker is overlayed atop the blue 'Fantasy Blog Shares 
L> Market' rule and is unreadable. It also takes up so many cpu cycles that 
;> its making typing this creep along slowly and painfully.

GI don't know what to do about that ticker... It's from DevEdge[1], but
Hit doesn't work very well in Netscape anyway.  To get it to stay inside
Ethe width that I need it, I had to set it absolutely inside the main
Fcolumn div, which has margins the size of the left and right columns.
IHowever, it was overlapping the title (BlogShares - Blah blah blah) so I
?gave it a top: -20px; which causes that overlap of the logo in
0Opera7/Win too.  Any ideas on what to do there?

II'm not sure what to do about the slowness of it.. Does anyone know of a
Ecross-browser ticker that uses HTML to store the content (instead of
embedding it in a JS)?

--
Marshall Roch

D[1] http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/examples/2001/stock-ticker/


U13:43:45.271 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [193]
=================
2From: cicero2002 at centrum.cz (bill shakespeare)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:16:25 +0200
"Subject: [css-d] Redesign Problem
@Message-ID: <20030428201632Z317121-615+143500@mail2.centrum.cz>


George,

EThere are many, many "deep-water mines" concealed from an untrained 
Beye in your code.  Incidentally, whatever happened to those mine 
Gsniffing dolphins, plowing the waters of the Gulf ?  The last I heard 
-of them was a week or so into the Operation.

Problemo Uno:

FYour front page sports a different doctype from that of Events.htm.  
4Believe it or not, I may make a helluva difference.

Problemo Due:

0Your front page sports, furthermore, this line:

,<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>

GI recommend tossing it out.  Most of the time it's more of a nuisance 
6than a benefit.  It may send IE6/Win into a tailspin.

Problemo Tre:

AThe best practice calls for introducing a stylesheet before any 
JavaScript.

DRectifying the problems does not guarantee a desired effect.  Yet, 
it's a very good start.


--------------------
�Vyhrajte kuchy� za 200 000 K�, leteck� z�jezd a dal�� zaj�mav� ceny! Z��astn�te se �ten��sk� ankety IDE�LN� MU� na http://zena.centrum.cz/ideal


U13:43:45.271 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [194]
=================
5From: incoming at kubaton.com (incoming@kubaton.com)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:42:39 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
KMessage-ID: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>

,Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?

http://riotgrrrl.com/

GThe "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
Jhaving it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
Icouldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?

_Lea
U13:43:45.271 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [195]
=================
.From: csslist at theparagon.org ({ schaapy })
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:01:39 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
LIn-Reply-To: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
3Message-ID: <BAD30EF3.1F95%csslist@theparagon.org>



I would do something like:


#header {
    height: 15px;
}

#header.letters {
    float: left;
}



<div id="header">
!    <div class="letters">r</div>
!    <div class="letters">i</div>
!    <div class="letters">o</div>
!    <div class="letters">t</div>
</div>


IGive each letter a transparent background - this will let you change the
'color of the top bar if you so choose.

------------------------------
Aaron Schaap
www.theparagon.org

+They tell me the internet never sleeps ...
1... Evidently, that means I don't get to either.

> From: <incoming@kubaton.com>
(> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:42:39 -0400
.> To: "'Css-D'" <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
?> Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
> 
.> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
> 
> http://riotgrrrl.com/
> 
I> The "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
L> having it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
K> couldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?
> 
> _Lea
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 
U13:43:45.272 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [196]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:13:30 -0500
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
7Message-ID: <008301c30dcb$050b1380$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>


.> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
>
> http://riotgrrrl.com/
>
I> The "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
L> having it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
K> couldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?


LHere you go, I couldn't tell if it worked perfectly cause I didn't have the
+images, but looks ok from what I can tell.

A<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//Ddiv HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>
<head>
" <title>Untitled Document</title>
J <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
=   <link href="global.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
   <style type="text/css">
    body {
    margin:0;
    padding:0;
}
   .piece {
    text-align:center;
 width:6%;
; background-image:url(images/top/background.png) repeat-x;
 float:left;
 }
   .heading2 {
    clear:both;
 }
   </style>


</head>

<body>

<div id="topbanner">
K  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/left.png" width="16" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/i.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/o.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/t.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/g.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r2.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r3.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r4.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/l.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
J  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/dot.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/c.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/o2.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/m.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
L  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/right.png" width="16" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
</div>

7<p class="heading2">New &amp; Improved Coming Soon</p>

</body>

</html>

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


U13:43:45.274 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [197]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:13:32 -0400
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
CReferences: <OFD278A69D.7CC3E6CA-ON88256D16.00545AA2@capgroup.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAD997C.4DB1@ij.net>

#Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
 
> Joel Young wrote:
 
A> > So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:

!> >       body {font-size: .7em}
> >       td {font-size: .7em}

P> > This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule text
!> > that Superman couldn't read.

N> > So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing

N> > is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers -

> > aren't they?....

&> >       (no body styling this time)
> >       td {font-size: .7em}

J> > That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a
> > strong pair of glasses.
 
> There are two tricks here:
 
J> 1) IE does not inherit font sizes through the table tag, but the td tag
N> does inherit correctly. Instead of the body/td style combo above, try this:
 
>     body {font-size: 70%}
>     table {font-size: 100%}
 
L> This tells IE to inherit the font size through the table, which will then
G> allow the td fonts to size correctly. It also doesn't cause any side
N> effects in more compliant browsers, because 100% of 100% is, well, 100%. If
N> you have reasons to change font sizes for specific td's, this also lets you
I> do so without worrying about clobbering the browser compatibility fix.
 
J> 2) Jason Estes mentioned the issue with setting font sizes in ems -- it
K> causes IE to do strange things when the browser is set to anything other
N> than "Medium". I can't agree more strongly, with respect with the body font
J> size. Basically, IE will misbehave if you use ems as the font-size that
4> everything else is relative to, so something like
 
>     body {font-size: 0.7em}
>     cite {font-size: 0.9em}
 
M> will shrink to unreadable proportions. If, however, you set your outermost
N> font-size using percents, you can then make all other font sizes in ems, if
4> you prefer reading them that way. In other words,
> 
>     body {font-size: 70%}
>     cite (font-size: 0.9em}
> 
> will behave correctly.

ISince Matthew Davey started the ems or percent? thread over the weekend,
FI've been playing around with IE6 off and on trying to understand the
@pattern. NAICT so far, and using standards mode exclusively, IE
Dmisbehaves on font-size inheritance under more conditions than just
.tables. I just haven't found the pattern yet.

HFor example, at http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ie/IE6tB.html, which
Ehas only two font-size rules applied to the whole page (table=100% &
Gtd=.8em), upon setting IE6 to "smaller" and Gecko to 13px, the first 6
Enon-blank rows (1 apparent paragraph) display the same font sizes in
2both Gecko and IE, since all are specified in px.

AThe next apparent paragraph (3 rows) match the first two rows at
I13px=medium and 12px=small. In the next row, Gecko shows x-small at 10px
3(leaving 9px for xx-small), while IE drops to 9px.

HThe 3rd apparent paragraph (3 rows) shows matches only in the first row
Hat 13px=medium. The next two rows exhibit the mis-sizing problem in IE,
Iwhile they display as expected in Gecko, which correctly applies .8em to
Athe 2nd row and .8emX.8em=.64em to the third row. Note that this
Fparagraph is three nested divs, no tables, and yet what IE appears to
Ehave done is apply .8emX.8em to row two, and .8emX.8emX.8em=.51em or
(.8emX.8emX.8emX.8em=.41em to row three.

FNext 2 paragraphs/rows are simply for reference for what follows, but
Enote that .8em is smaller in IE, even though the default is the same
13px.

FLast, is a three row table, with another table in the 2nd row. Again,
EGecko renders exactly as expected. In contrast, IE, which supposedly
Ifubars em text sizing *too small* if a % size is not set in body or html
Fand not set in prefs to medium, displays the first two rows, sized in
(ems, *larger* than Gecko. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.274 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [198]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:26:14 -0500
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
3References: <BAD30EF3.1F95%csslist@theparagon.org>
7Message-ID: <008901c30dcc$cc8789b0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

>
> I would do something like:
>
> #header {
>     height: 15px;
> }
>
> #header.letters {
>     float: left;
> }
>
>
>
> <div id="header">
#>     <div class="letters">r</div>
#>     <div class="letters">i</div>
#>     <div class="letters">o</div>
#>     <div class="letters">t</div>
	> </div>

JThe only problem with this is that you didn't explicitly set the width of
Ethe letters, which is required for floats.  That is until CSS 2.1 is
Jfinalized.  If you use this without explicit declaration of width it will
@break in IE 5.x on the mac, most other browsers will display it
appropriately..


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org



U13:43:45.274 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [199]
=================
*From: andrewyao at yahoo.com (Andrew Yao)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
AMessage-ID: <20030428224834.33497.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com>


Hi Folks,

7There is a subtle effect with both solutions presented
2so far: when you resie the browser width so it is
7smaller than the combined width of all the images, the
7banner will wrap into multiple lines.. I don't know if
this is the desired effect.

-I propose to use multiple spans in a div and
white-space:nowrap 

<html>
	<head>
#		<title>Untitled Document</title>
		<style type="text/css">
			#topbanner {
				white-space:nowrap;
5				background-image:url(images/top/background.png);
 				background-repeat:repeat-x;
			}
			#topbanner span {
				width:6%;
			}
		</style>
		</head>
	<body>
		<div id="topbanner">
3			<span><img src="images/top/left.png" width="16"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/r.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/i.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/o.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/t.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/g.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r2.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r3.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r4.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/l.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
2			<span><img src="images/top/dot.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/c.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/o2.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/m.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
4			<span><img src="images/top/right.png" width="16"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
			</div>
		</body>
</html>

cheers

Andrew

#__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
/The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
3From steve at mrclay.org  Tue Apr 29 00:20:41 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:20:41 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
LIn-Reply-To: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
5Message-ID: <156730414296.20030428192041@mrclay.org>

@Monday, April 28, 2003, 4:42:39 PM, incoming@kubaton.com wrote:
1ikc> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
ikc> http://riotgrrrl.com/

+Fun stuff.  http://mrclay.org/secret/riot/
EThis uses all spans and background-images, so no messy imgs or block
2containers in markup.  A min-width prevents wrap.

Moz/Opera7: works great.
'IE6: fine, but right piece is missing.
Others: shudder to imagine.

?Since this is all basically presentational markup, I'd make an
9average-sized img and put it in a noscript element, then
Gdocument.write in all this markup from an external .js file.  At least
3you'll have cleaner documents and the mess cached.

EOr you might experiment with an img stretched horizontally with CSS,
Cit might not look as tight, but would be much cleaner and possibly
more reliable:

G<img (left piece) /><img style="width:80%" ... /><img (right piece) />

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
U13:43:45.275 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [200]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:36:12 +0100
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
6In-Reply-To: <156730414296.20030428192041@mrclay.org>
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
@ <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
3Message-ID: <l03130317bad36b51335b@[192.168.0.36]>

2>ikc> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
>ikc> http://riotgrrrl.com/
>
,>Fun stuff.  http://mrclay.org/secret/riot/

LWow, looks like everyone's stepped up to the bat on this one - mine's not a
Imillion miles from Steve's though I think mine is just that bit sleeker.
JHowever, what with the embarrassment of riches now on display, I can't be
Abothered to finish it but I think the proof of concept is there.

6<http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/cssjunk/Riotgirl.mhtml>

LOf course, I'd junk the images as text and just justify the text but that's
just me...



U13:43:45.275 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [201]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:33:52 EDT
+Subject: [css-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <1ea.79417d2.2bdf2270@aol.com>

@In a message dated 4/28/2003 1:36:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ironmike@inav.net writes:


I> <.bold> Is this bold in your reader? <.h2>It should be in regular text

OI think it's fine, but I don't think it will be picked up by the rest of this 
List.

MI am interested in the list you refer to. If you could send some info on it 
Mto me, I'd appreciate being able to check it out. Thanks for the suggestion.


Curt
8From holnkids at netscape.net  Tue Apr 29 03:47:36 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:47:36 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
6Message-ID: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>

1Webapprentice <webapprentice@onemain.com> wrote:

,>http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html
>
I>The middle white area, where there is a link to "See the style sheet," 
L>is not stretched all the way. �I'd like to stretch the white area so it 
@>almost reaches the right white area but not colliding with it.
>
D>I've tried "width: auto" and "width: 100%," but this doesn't work.

qHi Stephen - You have a couple of options here, and which you chose may depend on what else you put on the page.

�To use absolute positioning as currently written on the div#contentarea and get the browsers to expand a greater distance than the short amount of text you have in there now, specifiy a width for #contentarea. You might choose your min-width value for this. Depending on the browser size and/or screen resolution of your user, the gap will be wider or narrower (or non-existant) with this method. I suspect that this probably isn't what you want to have to deal with.

�Another option is to use relative positioning instead, and use right margining to set the distance away from the right border, much like you already have. This will allow the div#contentarea to expand the full width of the area available, as long as it is greater than the min-width you have set. You will also have to adjust the top position, and you shouldn't need the width property at all. 

#contentarea {
 � �other: styles;
( � �position: relative;/* change */
4 � �top: 46px; � � � �/* change also */
6 � �/*width: auto;*/ /* probably not necessary */

�The min-width property will keep the #contentarea from collapsing beyond the value you have set as the browser narrows, but the #rightnavarea will slide on top of the #contentarea as the browser is narrowed beyond the min-width (except in IE-win which doesn't recognize min-width). If you want that middle column fluid in all browsers, remove the min-width property.

HTH,

~holly




C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
<From webapprentice at onemain.com  Tue Apr 29 05:02:46 2003
3From: webapprentice at onemain.com (Webapprentice)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:02:46 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
7In-Reply-To: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>
6References: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>
+Message-ID: <3EADF966.6080700@onemain.com>


Hi Holly,
Thank you for the quick reply.

IYou are correct that absolute positioning + min-width was not the way I 
Hwanted go.  I  wanted the middle column to be fluid, much like the old 
/HTML table hack of setting a td width to 100%.

HYour second option of relative positioning intrigued me.  I have never 
Dquite gotten that to behave properly, so I've always used absolute 
9positioning.  I had a lot of problems trying to combine 
Hrelatively-positioned elements with absolutely-positioned elements.  I 
,probably don't understand page flow enough.

FI've employed your relatively-positioned idea, and it works.  I must 
Hhave been very close to solving my problem, since I only had to change 
3two properties for #contentarea, position and top.

+http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html

<I'm kind of amazed that relatively-positioned elements and 
.absolutely-positioned elements can cooperate.

5I have to examine relative positioning more closely.

Thank you Holly.

Sincerely,
Stephen
U13:43:45.275 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [202]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:01:46 +0100
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
8In-Reply-To: <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
,	<005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
,Message-ID: <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>

Jason Estes wrote:

4> In the original email he said they were set up as
> 
> p {declarations}
> 
> and wanted something like
> 
> #mysite p {declarations}

DI probably wasn't being specific enough - i'll explain the set-up:-

IThere are two templates involved - one CMS admin template which already 
Ehas a stylesheet attached (and needs to stay attached), and we have 
Eattached our own additional stylesheet and one public site template 
Fwhich has just our style sheet. Within the admin template you create 
J"inner templates" such as "news item" which are inserted into the public 
Gsite template, but the problem is when you try to preview these inner 
Jtemplates within the admin template, they also inherit the global styles 
from the admin style sheet.

GThe admin style sheet has rules defined for p, h1, h2 etc and so does 
Iour public style sheet, and although we can redefine each of these rule 
Fby rule, this means we would need to add loads of extra rules to our 
(public style sheet to catch everything.

JI was trying to find a way to stop the inheritance for everything within 
Ba particular div without having to overide the styles one by one.

Hope thats clearer!
U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [203]
=================
.From: andy at webprojects.co.uk (Andy Walker)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:48:42 +0100
4Subject: [css-d] IE6  absolute positioning problems
3Message-ID: <002f01c30e23$c2a8ea40$c501a8c0@holly>

$Looks fine in everything except IE6

&I was using an ie6 - specific hack...

G#leftsidebar {position: absolute; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 140px; =
-background-color: white; text-align: right;}
@/* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
0* html #leftsidebar { /*\*/ left:-150px; /* */}

EThis worked fine, but in IE 5.0, it positioned the sidebar off the =
left-hand edge of the page.

I have changed it to...

G#leftsidebar {position: absolute; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 140px; =
-background-color: white; text-align: right;}
@/* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
-* html #leftsidebar { /*\*/ left:0px; /* */}

K...for the purposes of testing in ie 5.0, but the menu's now incorrectly =
positioned in ie6

&http://www.webprojects.co.uk/csslist/

any ideas?
DFrom Andreas.Reuterberg at staff.spray.se  Tue Apr 29 09:55:40 2003
@From: Andreas.Reuterberg at staff.spray.se (Andreas Reuterberg)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:55:40 +0200
6Subject: [css-d] 2 columns centered but unkown width?
FMessage-ID: <8E9E6E8B6A579344999D9B303F0B3B2D306312@safir.i.spray.se>

FI have a slight problem. I know how to solve it but I would like an =
Ieasier alternative. I have two columns, one of them is 200px wide (for =
Bexample) and the other one is sometimes 200px and sometimes 0px =
I(shouldn't be shown). The problem is that these two columns need to be =
Hcentered on the page and to do that I need to put them in a <div> and =
Kset that width to the width of them both together. But I need to get rid =
Gof that set width (300px) because the content in the right column is =
Hthere sometimes and sometimes it's not (it contains a banner). I know =
6how to do this with tables but.. Well, tables suck :)

9Can anyone help me? This is a short example of the code:

$<body style=3D"text-align:center;">
0	<div style=3D"width:300px; border:1px solid;">
H		<div style=3D"float:left; width:200px; border:1px solid;">200px</div>
;		<div style=3D"float:left; border:1px solid;">100px</div>
	</div>
</body>


Andreas
;From knaepkens.luc at pandora.be  Tue Apr 29 11:51:27 2003
(From: knaepkens.luc at pandora.be (Luc)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:51:27 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] IE and the fixed position
3Message-ID: <1448902190.20030429125127@pandora.be>

 Good afternoon list,      

B I read up on http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/ to make the fixed
B position work in IE but i seem to have a serious brain damage: i
 can't get it to work.

 My testpage:

@ http://users.pandora.be/luc_test/Projecten/Test/Pages/Test.htm

 sheet:

7 http://users.pandora.be/luc_test/Stylesheets/test.css

C The top banner and left nav should be fixed (Opera does it) but i
D can't get it fixed in IE.  Could some of you kind souls explain me
A how to implement the devnull hack or provide me the code for my
0 project so i can try and figger it out myself?
 
-- 
Best regards,
 Luc
---------------------------------------------
APowered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build
E2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera.

A"Acting is just a way of making a living, the family is life." -
Denzel Washington (1954-____).
---------------------------------------------

U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [204]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:54:15 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B90@vec01.vaneerden.com>

>>Here're a couple more:
G>>http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
>>problematic on Mac)

~Caution to all: If you use this, remember that (800x600 Firebird) I can't do anything to make the bottom of the menu visible.

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
 
U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [205]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:11:39 -0400
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
-In-Reply-To: <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
L <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH> <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
4Message-ID: <56127789375.20030429071139@mrclay.org>

1Tuesday, April 29, 2003, 2:01:46 AM, Rick wrote:
CRH> when you try to preview these inner templates within the admin
GRH> template, they also inherit the global styles from the admin style
RH> sheet.

EOoooh, you're preview environment is basically corrupted by an admin
FCSS file that won't be there for the user, but you need /some/ of the
Fadmin rules to keep the CMS "chrome" nice during preview.  Here are a
Fcouple ideas for which you'll need a partial admin.css file with what
you don't want stripped out:

E1) Write a bookmarklet that disables link to admin.css and adds link
?to partialAdmin.css  You'd have to run this with every preview

F2) Temporarily replace admin.css with partialAdmin.css on the server.
FTry to tie the code to do this into the preview function of your CMS.

DIf partialAdmin.css can't be created, your dev team would just have
Eto live with the admin "chrome" being unstyled during preview.  Just
)/move/ or disable admin.css temporarily.

HTH,
Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [206]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:24:48 +0100
FSubject: [css-d] Site check please... Global 3 Col Fluid CSS Template
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
L	<005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH> <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
)	<56127789375.20030429071139@mrclay.org>
2Message-ID: <00b501c30e4a$53696250$fd00a8c0@mike>

<I hope some kind folk can help with a site check... please!

IGiven recent discussions on this list, especially regarding em's v % and
Gbrowser compatibility/hacks, I decided to create global templates that
Laddress some regular issues. My aim is to create some sort of "Standard", a
Lgood starter for people to use which also explains how the page builds from
beginning to final design.

EThe first of these templates is for a 3 column, cross-browser, cross
Lplatform, standards compliant, table-less, fluid page. The first-draft home
page is at
Khttp://www.china-and-west.com/cssTemps/layout1_3col/three_col_home.htm and
its layout is at
Lhttp://www.china-and-west.com/cssTemps/layout1_3col/three_col_testbasic.htm
K. The layout test page is a bit messy but there so the code is seen at the
"place of relevance in the layout.

II would appreciate site checks on as many platforms as possible. To save
Jcluttering the list with replies I would appreciate a direct reply unless
:there are issues which may be of design relevance to all.

MOne intention is to fully comment both the CSS and page, so commentary is as
 important as design competence.

KI need the type of templates I am designing. At the same time I considered
Gthey should be available to all, thus saving re-invention and enabling
Hdesigners (especially those new to CSS) to grasp some issues constantly
Gdiscussed on the list. I am happy to act as a conduit (do the work) to
Kbenefit others. If, when finished, someone wants to put these templates on
Mtheir own CSS-help sites or in publications then okay, so long as this helps
towards good design standards.

KWhen this one's complete I intend to produce fully commented templates for
J2-column, photo album, and E-book pages. I'll add more if I'm not totally
exhausted after that!

Many thanks!

Mike A
Edinburgh, Scotland
4malaja@malaja.f9.co.uk (preferred for this subject)
mike@china-and-west.com
T. 00 44 31 664 6604
U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [207]
=================
5From: ehmer at pacific.net.au (David & Angela Ehmer)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:49:00 +1000
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3Message-ID: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>

JAppreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
Hdetail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
explained examples.

Thanks
David
U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [208]
=================
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:58:56 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
4Message-ID: <007301c30e4f$1b61def0$d201a8c0@jenspc>


Hi David,

Fmy favourite is "Eric Meyer on CSS" [http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/].
LIt is full of advanced CSS-Stuff which you only can understand, if you have
a little bit of CSS-practice.

DAnd I hope, there will be a 2nd Edition of his "normal" CSS-Book at

O'Reilly.

Greetings from Germany,

Jens
U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [209]
=================
#From: ksoh at colby.edu (Karen Oh)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:13:04 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
4In-Reply-To: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
6Message-ID: <a05111b09bad42a3626b7@[137.146.196.147]>

(I got Eric Meyer's "Eric Meyer on CSS."

CIt's decent if you are interested in learning CSS from the start. 
CEach chapter is an case study of a design and he shows you how to 
Ccreate that design using CSS with step by step instructions. Good 
2beginner tutorial book, but not a reference book.

GIf you want a reference type of book that gives crude examples (boxes 
Eand text mainly, nothing designed or whatnot), the O'Reilly book on 
.CSS is a good base. That's how I am learning.

$Plus, there's tons of stuff online.

HTH
Karen


K>Appreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
I>detail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
>explained examples.
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Tue Apr 29 14:31:36 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:31:36 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
7Message-ID: <001701c30e53$a8dfa790$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> Appreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
J> detail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
> explained examples.


MI too have "Eric Meyer on CSS" and I think it's a fantastic tool.  It starts
Ewith simple pages in tables and progresses through entire pages done
Lstrictly with CSS.  It delves into a few of the finer points of CSS which I
Mthink is great, plus there are online files you can download to "play along"
Hwith the book, which is infinitely more helpful than just reading text.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [210]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:58:03 -0700
4Subject: [css-d] IE6  absolute positioning problems
CMessage-ID: <OFF0EE69DE.6470F02F-ON88256D17.004BAB72@capgroup.com>


@[n.b.: I've reformatted the styles for folks whose mail readers
automatically wrap text...]

Andy wrote:

(> I was using an ie6 - specific hack...

> #leftsidebar {
>   position: absolute;
>   left: 0px;
>   top: 0px;
>   width: 140px;
>   background-color: white;
>   text-align: right;
> }
B> /* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
> * html #leftsidebar {

>   /*\*/
>   left:-150px;

>   /* */
> }

JI've seen that hack identified for hiding properties in Mac IE 5, but not

IE 6. Try

* html #leftsidebar {
	   /*\*/
   lef\t:-150px;
	   /* */
}

FThis assumes that Mac IE 5 works fine with left: 0px. The escaped "t"
Dcauses all IE versions except for 6.0 to ignore the style -- see "A
DModified SBMH" on http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BoxModelHack

GIf Mac IE needs the same fix, remove the comments. See Edwardson Tan's
great page on comment hacks at
Ihttp://www.info.com.ph/~etan/w3pantheon/style/commentbugs.html for other
variations.

HTH,

MikeL
U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [211]
=================
9From: jazzsnot at optonline.net (jazzsnot@optonline.net)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:03:57 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
2Message-ID: <b4f13b2bfc.b2bfcb4f13@optonline.net>

�"Designing CSS Web Pages" is an amazing book, especially for design. It teaches you how to design pages properly and put CSS to use. It has made me think totally different after reading it. Highly recommended.

Roy
U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [212]
=================
)From: gsam at trini0.org (Gerard Samuel)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:06:45 -0400
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
*Message-ID: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>

%Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
-With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
<<p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
=<div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
?<span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.

6Im just looking for verification on this observation.
HIf Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
to gain a "special" effect.

IFor example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not to 
use tables for layout.
IThe only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by line 
fashion is by ->
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
<div></div>
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

E(Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
:control the space between options, style the option text,
Gand if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
the form inputs.

(Thanks for any insight you may provide.
U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [213]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:14:27 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] what is troubling IE6?
5Message-ID: <132787639953.20030429111427@mrclay.org>

FLea's layout made me think of the old Mad Fold-Ins, so I put together
=this in CSS: http://mrclay.org/junk/mad/ (narrow the window)

FI know IE doesn't have min/max widths, but I don't see where the rest
Dof this is failing.  The wider inside image seems to be missing (or
/rendering at width:0).  Any ideas to fix this?

(Everything is held by abs. positioning:

outer div:
?|--- img ---|--- inside span ---|--- img --- | (max-width set)
,   left:0;        left:95px;       right:0;
                  right:95px;
                  display:block;
inside span:
|---- img ----|
  width:100%;

Steve

'PS: Where I can get a funnier fold-in?
-- 
http://mrclay.org
U13:43:45.276 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [214]
=================
+From: dnelson at netbank.com (Dave Nelson)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:14:18 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OMessage-ID: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBB4@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>

1Bill Creswell [mailto:BillC@VanEerden.com] said:

J>> I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of
6.1
3>> was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x
>
I> Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4
6(which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent > string).\
>
> Bill

JI downloaded and installed Netscape 6 from the evolt archive and if it is
Ethe same install from the initial release I was wrong. It is clearly
identified as Netscape 6

@userAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; m18)
Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0

-My own stats from AWStats so far this month:
23 million hits total
91% IE
 4% NS

Netscape5   250854
Netscape6.0   1832 
U13:43:45.277 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [215]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:26:50 +0100
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
+In-Reply-To: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
;Message-ID: <FF8EE716-7A56-11D7-BCD5-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


E<span> and <div> are unstyled tags and contain no style properties, 
Cexcept that span is inline in it's display and div is block. This 
!creates the effect you describe.

B<p> on the other hand has more default properties. Commonly this 
@involves a margin or padding area equal in height to one line. 
IDifferent browsers define this standard style differently. IE PC places 
Gsome space above and below the text, Moz places it all below. You can 
&override this space with a rule like:

.p { margin:0; padding:0; margin-bottom:1em; }

FFor your example, I would recommend something along the lines of the 
following:

G<div class="f"> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /> 

bar</div>
H<div class="f" > <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /> 

bar</div>

And in your CSS:

.f { margin-bottom:1em; }

%Or whatever presentation you desire.

HTH,

Ben

H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

GOn Tuesday, Apr 29, 2003, at 16:06 Europe/London, Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
J> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
H> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not 
> to use tables for layout.
F> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by 
> line fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
>
G> (Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
<> control the space between options, style the option text,
I> and if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
> the form inputs.
>
*> Thanks for any insight you may provide.
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:45.277 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [216]
=================
+From: justin at get-put.com (justin braem)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:29:50 -0500
Subject: [css-d] align-bottom
?Message-ID: <6AAAFCBE-7A57-11D7-B8A8-000393C28C30@get-put.com>

?I'm new here, so my apologies if this has been covered before.

AIs there any way to align a div to the bottom of a page without 
8resorting to finding the window height with javascript?
U13:43:45.277 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [217]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:18:02 -0700
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
CMessage-ID: <OFFD126CEE.4F42D79A-ON88256D17.00570F2F@capgroup.com>


Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
I> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
J> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not to
> use tables for layout.
J> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by line
> fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

KWelcome to the world of CSS, Gerard! It sounds like you are also beginning
8to get into the world of structural (or semantic) HTML.

FBasically, each tag represents some type of information. <p> tags are
Ddesigned to represent paragraphs. Most browsers place space between
Kparagraphs to identify where it begins or ends. Some browsers put one full
Jline space between paragraphs, others place half a space. Either of these
$can be overridden with CSS, though.

J<div> and <span> tags are generic containers used to enclose content that
Ghas some common purpose. <div> tags are intended to represent discrete
Lblocks of information, while <span> tags are intended to represent specific
Linformation inside of a block. (More accurately, <div> tags are block-level
Gcontainers that typically create carriage returns, and <span> tags are
inline containers.)

JIn most circumstances, you would want to wrap information that belongs in
%its own block in <div> tags, so that

F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
<div></div>
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

becomes

8<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo"
/><span>bar</span></div>
8<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo"
/><span>bar</span></div>

KThis tells the browser that the label "bar" belongs with the checkbox as a
Jsingle unit. You can then apply CSS styles to the divs, to properly space
the blocks apart.

F<div> tags can also contain other block-level tags like <p> and other
F<div>s, but paragraphs can only contain non-block-level elements like
K<span>, <em>, etc. (If you consider <p> tags as representing paragraphs it
Jmakes some sense -- you might emphasize some text in a paragraph, but you
Ftypically wouldn't place a paragraph inside of another paragraph, for

example.)

IAnother enhancement you might consider is replacing the <span> tags with
J<label> tags. Inside forms, <label> tags permit you to add semantic value
Ito this text. You can associate labels with inputs, so that clicking the
Glabel highlights the input as well. As an example, you can rewrite the
above checkboxes as follows:

G<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" id="optionFoo" value="foo"
+/><label for="optionFoo">foo</label></div>
G<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" id="optionBar" value="bar"
+/><label for="optionBar">bar</label></div>

JAs long as the "for" attribute in the label matches the "id" attribute in
Jthe input, you can click the text and it will check/uncheck the checkbox.
HYou can style the label tag in the same way as you would've intended to
Kstyle the span tag. Also, the <label> tag more semantically represents the
purpose of this text.

EFor more information, check out the "Forms" section of the HTML 4.01
specification:

/http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html

JThis spec can also be useful (albeit a bit daunting at first) for finding
<out how W3C intended HTML to be put together in a document.

HTH,

MikeL
U13:43:45.277 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [218]
=================
,From: scotts at rci-nv.com (Scott Schrantz)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:20:50 -0700
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
=Message-ID: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EE3B@SERVER1>

> -----Original Message-----
/> From: Gerard Samuel [mailto:gsam@trini0.org]
> 
'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
> 
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
@> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to 
(> use these to gain a "special" effect.

JOne of the first things to learn when using CSS is not to choose elements
Jbased on what their default presentation is, but rather on what structure
Jthey give to the page. You then use CSS to give them the presentation you
want.

K<p> denotes a paragraph. Use it when you are marking up a single paragraph
Jof text. It is a block element, meaning that there is a line break before
Land after it. It doesn't "create 2 line breaks", it has margins that create
Mwhite space between it and other elements. That white space can be done away
with using CSS.

p {margin: 0px;}

J<div> is a container, used for grouping elements. You use it when several
Lparagraphs need to have the same style or be separated from the rest of the
Fpage somehow. It is also a block element, but its margins are zero by
	default.

K<span> is also a container, but it is an inline container. As you noticed,
Lit doesn't come with any line break or margins. You use it when you need to
Lisolate a few words or a passage in the middle of a paragraph and give them
a particular style.

KThe true way to use CSS is to start by using basic HTML properly, and then
Ladd the CSS to make it look the way you want. Don't choose HTML elemnts for
3their "special effects". Add the effects with CSS.

--
Scott Schrantz
www.computer-vet.com/weblog/
scotts@computer-vet.com
AFrom grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de  Tue Apr 29 17:27:50 2003
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:27:50 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OReferences: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBB4@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>
4Message-ID: <00b001c30e6c$4a62c670$d201a8c0@jenspc>

Hi,

Aaccording to Apple the new Safari-Browser may be your Netscape5.
GOn http://developer.apple.com/internet/safari_faq.html#2 you can read:

<cite>
(The entire Safari user-agent string is:
LMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/XX (KHTML, like
Gecko) Safari/YY

K...where XX is the version of Apple's web technology used by Safari and YY
*is the version of the Safari application.
JAnd remember, since the rendering engine used by Safari behaves most like
HNetscape, the Safari JavaScript engine will report navigator.appName as
,"Netscape". Other Navigator values include:

G      navigator.appCodeName = "Mozilla" navigator.appName = "Netscape"
A      navigator.appVersion = "5.0" navigator.platform = "MacPPC"
D      navigator.product = "Gecko" navigator.productSub = "20030107"
0      navigator.vendor = "Apple Computer, Inc."

</cite>

HTH,

Jens
U13:43:45.281 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [219]
=================
)From: gsam at trini0.org (Gerard Samuel)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:55:01 -0400
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
+In-Reply-To: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
*References: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
*Message-ID: <3EAEBC75.7010602@trini0.org>

IThanks to all those who replied.  It has become a little clearer for me.
HI felt that what I was trying to do was cheat the system, and I didn't 
want to develop bad
habits from the start.
HNow I think I understand why Eric Meyer requested to pull all <br> and 
&nbsp; tags out of
Fyour html document when converting to CSS in the book "Eric Meyer on 
)CSS" (excellent resource so far for me).
1So back to work for me, till my next question :)

Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
J> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
H> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not 
> to use tables for layout.
F> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by 
> line fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
>
G> (Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
<> control the space between options, style the option text,
I> and if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
> the form inputs.
>
*> Thanks for any insight you may provide.
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>
U13:43:45.282 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [220]
=================
.From: weston at canncentral.org (Weston Cann)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:37:27 -0600
KSubject: [css-d] Trying to hide styles from different browsers (IE Win, IE
	Mac, everything else)
CMessage-ID: <A0B8F58A-7A71-11D7-94CC-0050E4F9FA12@canncentral.org>

II've got a layout with some absolutely positioned elements that seem to 
Jdisplay a few pixels off from browser to browser. After some reflection, 
HI've decided to try and feed different sets of values to three general 
kinds of browsers:

(1) MS IE Win
(2) MS IE Mac
1(3) Any other child-selector recognizing browser

@The scheme I've been trying to use to accomplish this has been:

F(1) Feed the IE Win value straight out in the style sheet ( example: 
.#tlmenu { position: absolute; top: 118px; } )
G(2) Feed the IE Mac value using a child selector expression, which is 
Jtherefore hidden from IE Win (example: #centring>#tlmenu { top: 119px } )
J(3) Use the \ comment hack and another child selector expression to feed 
Ianother value to all other child-selector reading browsers (example: /* 
.hack \ */ #centring>#tlmenu { top: 120px; } )

JThe problem is: the Gecko-based browser I'm using (Chimera/Navigator .6) 
Hseems to be oblivious to everything I put in #3. Am I going about this 
Jin a fundamentally wrong way, or is there just a detail I'm missing? Are 
there other, better schemes?

&(If you want the full context, go to 
Ihttp://weston.canncentral.org/misc/XVoyager/about.html ... it's got the 
XHTML and style sheets)

Thanks,

	Weston

~ == ~
http://weston.canncentral.org/
FMaybe the reason the invisible hand is invisible is because it isn't 
there.
U13:43:45.282 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [221]
=================
1From: css.rules at ntlworld.com (Standards R'Us)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:53:08 +0100
"Subject: [css-d] IE 5 Margin Woes
�Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAr8lY0hVSt0GwCUriyH46gcKDAAAQAAAAUrRwFaryNk+fCMqWmDO7KAEAAAAA@ntlworld.com>

5Hi all - newbie to the list - hope you all are well,

GNow to the matters in hand, can anyone help/advise me on the following
point.

9Firstly the CSS validates and the XHTML does as strict. 

EBut....IE 5 seems to ignore the margin for the nav.a and nav.a:hover
7declaration set on my css in regards to the CSS below;

.nav{
*background-image:url('../img/navbg.jpg');
background-repeat:no-repeat;
border-left:1px solid #CCCCCC;
 border-right:1px solid #CCCCCC;
border-top:medium none;
margin:0px;
padding:0px;
width:780px
}
.nav a{
color:#000000;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;
font-size:12px;
font-weight:normal;
line-height:52px;
margin-left:14px;    /ignores
margin-right:14px;  /ignores
padding:0px;
text-decoration:none;
text-transform:capitalize;
}
.nav a:hover{
color:#FF0000;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;
font-size:12px;
line-height:52px;
margin-left:14px;    /ignores
margin-right:14px;  /ignores
text-decoration:none;
text-transform:capitalize;
}

Any suggestions?

TIA

Jeremy

U13:43:45.282 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [222]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:59:56 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
EReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
3Message-ID: <p05210607bad4798b4575@[152.3.174.98]>

,At 9:09 AM -0300 4/28/03, Joel Young wrote:
>===============
>Scenario 1:
B>Assume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}
>
@>This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
$>of the browser's default. Yes? No?

GThis is a non-flame-war aspect to this problem, so I'll answer.  Yes, 
Gyour reading is correct on this point and all the points that follow, 
Bwith one caveat: be clear that "browser's default" refers to the 
Dperson doing the browsing, not the piece of software.  As has been 
Bthoroughly discussed, the individual may have changed his or her 
Dsettings, so what they see may not be the same as what the browser 
@ships configured to display.  So long as you are aware of that 
<possibility, you have calculated resulting sizes correctly.

EYou have to decide for yourself if it is more important to cater to 
Fthe cognoscenti or the clueless.  Just be aware that whichever group 
Fyou pick, the other group will see something different when it comes 
Fto font size.  Also, it is pretty much universally acknowledged that 
)the clueless is by far the larger group.

<opinion type="strongly held">
=My own view is that it is better to be concerned more about 
Eaccessibility and less about aesthetics.  Text that is slightly too 
Bsmall is less easily accommodated than text that is slightly too 
Clarge.  In addition, my experience is that more users back out of 
Dsites with text they find too small than sites with text they find 
Ctoo large.  This is the primary - and contrary to popular belief, 
Dcarefully-considered - reason that browser makers have chosen font 
Bsize defaults rather on the large side.  Take care in overriding 
their judgment.

DIn any case, be extremely sure of your choice if making non-header 
Afont sizes greater than 150% or less than 75-80% of the default 
G*anywhere* on a site.  Sizes outside that range are virtually assured 
Fof irritating some of your users.  (That is, constructions like your 
@third example, which made the inner text 72% of the "browser's 
(default", should generally be avoided.)
</opinion>

-- 

-Adam Kuehn

_13:43:45.284 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [389462] bytes
�13:43:45.284 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Thu Apr 24 16:07:26 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker

7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 16:40:48 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:40:48 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] List with mixed styles
:In-Reply-To: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
9References: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
/Message-ID: <3EA80580.3070503@cookiecrook.com>


K> What you want to do is create a div for the sub-items and add styles for
7> that specific div to your CSS. (Hat tip: Eric Meyer)
> 
> So, for example:
> <div id="menu">
> ITEM ONE
> <div class="subitems">
> Sub-item 1
> Sub-item 2
	> </div>
	> </div>

;The nesting idea is correct, but keep it a list, not divs.

<ul class="menu">
   <li>Item 1

     <ul>
       <li>Sub-item 1</li>
       <li>Sub-item 2</li>
     </ul>
	   </li>
   <li>Item 2</li>
   <li>Item 3</li>
</ul>

"ul.menu { /* top menu styles */ }
*ul.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
(ul.menu li ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
0ul.menu li ul li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

1Or, you could save a few bytes on the selectors.

 .menu { /* top menu styles */ }
(.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
#.menu ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
+.menu li li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

Good luck,
James Craig


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/

5From BradyG at BIDWELL.com  Thu Apr 24 16:49:36 2003
-From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
;for one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not ]
V13:43:45.285 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
Y13:43:45.285 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [4610]
Y13:43:45.285 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [5847]
Z13:43:45.285 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11042]
Z13:43:45.285 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11694]
Z13:43:45.286 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14322]
Z13:43:45.286 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14813]
Z13:43:45.286 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [17185]
Z13:43:45.286 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [22619]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [23777]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [24935]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [25600]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [27077]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [28048]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [31103]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [32322]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33207]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33881]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [36426]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [38906]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [39611]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40362]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40854]
Z13:43:45.342 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [42307]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [44381]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [45120]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [46626]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [47299]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [48023]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [49141]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [50265]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [53644]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [54261]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [55133]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [56603]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [57466]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [58820]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [60995]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [62757]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [63497]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [65951]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [66697]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [67645]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [68938]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [70058]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [71395]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [73633]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [76326]
Z13:43:45.343 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [77209]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [78431]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [82607]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [83312]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [85154]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [86345]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [88347]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [89056]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [91025]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [92518]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [94760]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [95686]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [97016]
Z13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [98916]
[13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [100703]
[13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [101981]
[13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [104651]
[13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [105522]
[13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [108140]
[13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [109030]
[13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [110577]
[13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [111713]
[13:43:45.344 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [112218]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [115007]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [117166]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [120070]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [121361]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [122997]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [123856]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [125795]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [128549]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129484]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129922]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [131612]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [132516]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [133642]
[13:43:45.345 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [134621]
[13:43:45.349 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [137652]
[13:43:45.350 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [138236]
[13:43:45.351 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [142465]
[13:43:45.351 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [143647]
[13:43:45.351 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [144733]
[13:43:45.352 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [145232]
[13:43:45.352 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [149409]
[13:43:45.352 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [151060]
[13:43:45.352 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153155]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153674]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [154221]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [155386]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [156187]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [158083]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [160013]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [162156]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [163096]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [165147]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [166475]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [167195]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [168631]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [170067]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [171200]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [172161]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [173044]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [175327]
[13:43:45.353 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [176650]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [182034]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [184318]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [185360]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [188868]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [189349]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [191813]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [192592]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [196228]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [201718]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [202888]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [205824]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [206835]
[13:43:45.354 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [209112]
[13:43:45.355 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [213575]
[13:43:45.355 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [214632]
[13:43:45.355 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [217173]
[13:43:45.355 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [218712]
[13:43:45.355 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [222713]
[13:43:45.355 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [225406]
[13:43:45.356 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [238231]
[13:43:45.357 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [240183]
[13:43:45.357 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [241335]
[13:43:45.357 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [242213]
[13:43:45.357 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [243658]
[13:43:45.357 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [247376]
[13:43:45.358 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [250226]
[13:43:45.358 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [251222]
[13:43:45.359 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [252782]
[13:43:45.359 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [253582]
[13:43:45.359 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [255113]
[13:43:45.359 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [257141]
[13:43:45.359 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [258729]
[13:43:45.359 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [260173]
[13:43:45.360 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [263021]
[13:43:45.360 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [266112]
[13:43:45.360 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [267943]
[13:43:45.360 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [268773]
[13:43:45.360 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [269368]
[13:43:45.360 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [270287]
[13:43:45.360 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [271965]
[13:43:45.360 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [272918]
[13:43:45.360 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [274357]
[13:43:45.360 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [275702]
[13:43:45.360 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [276626]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [278211]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [279791]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [280557]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281248]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281892]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [284485]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [285508]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [287192]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [289194]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290229]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290940]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [291497]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292008]
[13:43:45.361 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292955]
[13:43:45.362 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [295681]
[13:43:45.362 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [296401]
[13:43:45.362 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [297412]
[13:43:45.362 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [299878]
[13:43:45.362 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [302741]
[13:43:45.362 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [304075]
[13:43:45.371 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [305062]
[13:43:45.371 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [306733]
[13:43:45.371 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [307416]
[13:43:45.371 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [310045]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [311566]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [312707]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [314900]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [316029]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [318083]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [321443]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [323696]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [324549]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [325233]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [326418]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [328215]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [329589]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [331924]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [333708]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [334941]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [335517]
[13:43:45.372 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [337115]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [339999]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [344275]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [345199]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [348883]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [349908]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [354329]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [355908]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359330]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359935]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [361358]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [363720]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364142]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364749]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [366632]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [367896]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [368358]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [369601]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [370475]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [371432]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374211]
[13:43:45.373 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374625]
[13:43:45.374 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [378695]
[13:43:45.374 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [381979]
[13:43:45.374 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [384057]
[13:43:45.374 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [385721]
[13:43:45.374 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [387022]
S13:43:45.374 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker
S13:43:45.374 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [1]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:40:48 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] List with mixed styles
:In-Reply-To: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
9References: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
/Message-ID: <3EA80580.3070503@cookiecrook.com>


K> What you want to do is create a div for the sub-items and add styles for
7> that specific div to your CSS. (Hat tip: Eric Meyer)
> 
> So, for example:
> <div id="menu">
> ITEM ONE
> <div class="subitems">
> Sub-item 1
> Sub-item 2
	> </div>
	> </div>

;The nesting idea is correct, but keep it a list, not divs.

<ul class="menu">
   <li>Item 1

     <ul>
       <li>Sub-item 1</li>
       <li>Sub-item 2</li>
     </ul>
	   </li>
   <li>Item 2</li>
   <li>Item 3</li>
</ul>

"ul.menu { /* top menu styles */ }
*ul.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
(ul.menu li ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
0ul.menu li ul li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

1Or, you could save a few bytes on the selectors.

 .menu { /* top menu styles */ }
(.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
#.menu ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
+.menu li li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

Good luck,
James Craig


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
S13:43:45.377 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [2]
=================
-From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
Ifor one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not recommended for
Iothers (@page is useless for continuous media, pixels can't be used with
tty).

>@media was designed specifically for the purpose of declaring
Emedia-specific rules in a style sheet targetting more than one media
F(e.g., "all"). Why wouldn't you use it for that purpose? (OK, there's
poor support, but...)

=> Since your "ideal" set includes "handheld", and almost all
F> new devices fall into this category, you're not really avoiding the
> problem! :-)=20

DI only recommended using handheld if the /only/ styles declared are
Hthings like font and color. Handhelds have abysmal positioning support,
Hworse than WebTV (see below). If, however, you wanted to declare screen
6and handheld together, @media is the perfect tool.=20

=> Web of real CSS content to deal with. New devices are more
>> likely to be better at CSS since they have to work with new
=> Web content. And if the UA is compliant, then pages should

 Yes, but they aren't compliant:
("CSS2 Support in PDA/Handheld Browsers"
H<http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/handheldbrowsercsssupport.html>

@Thanks for making me think through all these media issues, Ian.

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
:From bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Apr 24 17:10:06 2003
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:10:06 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] smaller checkboxes
7References: <1824277687.20030423143018@balance.com.au>
P	<3EA71397.3080403@cookiecrook.com> <00be01c309ff$25f59db0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304231944540.19929-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
8Message-ID: <000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

----- Original Message -----
#From: "Ian Hickson" <ian@hixie.ch>
J<<Unfortunately that won't work in any standard-compliant UA, because the
KWingdings font doesn't have a UNICODE encoding, and so compliant UAs won't
Fuse it to render characters (since the font claims to not support any
EUNICODE characters, and the HTML and CSS specs say that the document
character set is UNICODE).

KTo make it work in any compliant UA, use the UNICODE checkmark characters,
Ge.g. U+2610 and U+2611 (entities &#x2610; and &#x2611;, which, if your
:e-mail client is working right, look like ☐ and ☑).>>
&- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

KWell, happily in respect to font substitution, Mozilla, Netscape 6.1+, and
IE
&are not standards-compliant browsers.

CI have tried UNICODE solutions and they always end up causing more
Cproblems in more situations than the easier and more common method
Gof font substitution. At least in the Windows world, I see nothing but
.problems in implementing Unicode equivalents.

BDo you have a link to some example where checkboxes (or something
;similar) have been done using standards for glyph display?

Brett




S13:43:45.379 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [3]
=================
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:24:25 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
8Message-ID: <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

=| I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
2| http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html
L| Explorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes
a
D| few problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.


HI feel like I'm getting more for my browser money when I click on those

big ones!

Brett
S13:43:45.379 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [4]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:25:06 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
.In-Reply-To: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
" <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>
3Message-ID: <p05210605bacdba15ac2a@[152.3.174.98]>

N>On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
>#
K># In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
M># relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
K># the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
L># changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
K># flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
;># page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.
>
F>I was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my
I>layout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So,
J>unless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do,
#>I'll have to abandon these plans.

FI haven't checked out this solution, so take it with a grain of salt:

GAbsolute positioning shouldn't affect the fluidity of your layout, if 
Cyou do it correctly.  If you absolutely position something, it is 
Dpositioned with respect to it's containing block.  That containing 
Cblock is defined to be the nearest ancestor with a position other 
Gthan "static".  Since "static" is also the default position for every 
Aelement, you would therefore need to position the element which 
Econtains the hidden/invisible content in question - in other words, 
Gposition the list item.  Try "relative" on the li, then "absolute" on 
=the paragraph and see if that does what you are looking for.

AIncidentally, to be a bit more semantically correct, you should 
Bactually make the invisible/hidden element a div , rather than a 
Gparagraph (positioned as explained).  Each verse could then be marked 
<up as a paragraph, with no additional positioning required.

-- 

-Adam Kuehn
3From steve at mrclay.org  Thu Apr 24 17:44:40 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:44:40 -0400
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
>In-Reply-To: <3CD82BA2-764B-11D7-9DBB-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
=References: <3CD82BA2-764B-11D7-9DBB-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
5Message-ID: <198361053093.20030424124440@mrclay.org>

:Thursday, April 24, 2003, 7:52:34 AM, Arlen Walker wrote:
AW> Margins also do *not* add;

2Vertically, but they don't collapse horizontally.

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
S13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [5]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:43:50 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
7Message-ID: <004801c30a80$af81d900$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Saila, Craig :
>
B> Thanks for making me think through all these media issues, Ian.

DAnd it's been a good conversation to follow along with, it's got me

thinking.
--Josh

S13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [6]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
>
> Steve Thomas wrote:
,>> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>>
?>>     <link rel="stylesheet" href="site.css" type="text/css">
>
K> The only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
I> so /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
	> stuff.

GThat's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has delegated
Gauthority over the "media" attribute to the CSS working group, who has
(decided to change the default to "all".

JUnfortunately I can't find a public reference to this decision. I'll look
	into it.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
3From steve at mrclay.org  Thu Apr 24 18:40:08 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:40:08 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
4Message-ID: <56364380796.20030424134008@mrclay.org>

1Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
CS> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
5S> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".

?This is a good way to stop using another purely presentational
Gelement.  You might also want to specify font-size:0; height:0 just to
<be sure the space within doesn't give you a 1em tall block.

DThere is a small catch in this display:block method, though: Inline
Gelements, such as A, are not supposed to contain blocks (as we've told
Espan to render), so, even though it's valid HTML/CSS, there could be
 unexpected behavior/rendering. 

Another technique would be:

span {
>   white-space:pre-line; /* gets rid of the space (CSS2.1) */
}
span:after {
4   content:"\A";         /* generated line-break */
}

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
S13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [7]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] smaller checkboxes
9In-Reply-To: <000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
7References: <1824277687.20030423143018@balance.com.au>
$	<3EA71397.3080403@cookiecrook.com>
-	<00be01c309ff$25f59db0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304231944540.19929-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
-	<000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241008150.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Brett Merkey wrote:
>
I> Well, happily in respect to font substitution, Mozilla, Netscape 6.1+,
/> and IE are not standards-compliant browsers.

@I believe recent Mozilla builds have been fixed in this regard.


E> I have tried UNICODE solutions and they always end up causing more
H> problems in more situations than the easier and more common method of
F> font substitution. At least in the Windows world, I see nothing but
0> problems in implementing Unicode equivalents.

JUnfortunately, we're not in a Windows world. Millions of people use other
operating systems.


D> Do you have a link to some example where checkboxes (or something
=> similar) have been done using standards for glyph display?

This works in Mozilla:

@   http://www.damowmow.com/playground/demos/checkboxes/001.html

KUnfortunately it doesn't work in WinIE6, due to its rather abysmal UNICODE
Jsupport. It is sad that the most popular UA is so bad at basic standards.
DIt was the same back in the days of Netscape 4... Maybe having poor
7support for the specs is the key to being popular? ;-)

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 18:46:03 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:46:03 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
?> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has
<> delegated authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS
A> working group, who has decided to change the default to "all".

-Well, that would make *a lot* more sense!=20

IThere does seems to be an inconsistency, given @import defaults to "all"
and this reference:
<<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/styles.html#h-14.4.1>
Bimplies it should default to "all" and apparently the DTD doesn't
;specify any default media-type, so "all" would make sense.

9Ain't it great when even the "standards" are consistent!

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
/From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Apr 24 18:49:31 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:49:31 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
9In-Reply-To: <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
- <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>


=> I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
I> http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html Explorer renders these
I> as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a few problems with
2> the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

KActually the reason Mozilla stops styling the checkboxes in strict mode is
Fthat the checkboxes have classes that do not match the classes in the
Kstylesheet. In quirks mode, Mozilla is ignoring the error and treating the
Iclasses as case insensitive, but in strict mode it does the right thing.

AIf you change the classes to lowercase throughout it works fine.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
<From contact at lukeredpath.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 19:08:38 2003
2From: contact at lukeredpath.co.uk (Luke Redpath)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:08:38 +0100
.Subject: [css-d] Cross-Browser Template Check
EMessage-ID: <ENEMIKFCPDMDJCEEJFPPOEKHCGAA.contact@lukeredpath.co.uk>

Hi,

<I'm working on a template for a redesign of a personal site
(www.sonicdeath.co.uk).

The template is here:

8http://testpad.sonicdeath.co.uk/sonicdeath_template.htm

/And a jpg of what it should look like is here:

8http://testpad.sonicdeath.co.uk/sonicdeath_template.jpg

ISo far it works in NS7, IE6, Opera 7, Moz 1.1/1.3 on Windows. It doesn't
Mwork in Opera 5 but that is fine with me because I would expect the majority
Dof Opera users (and we are talking about the majority of an extreme
Iminority) to have the latest version. I've not implemented any box model
Khacks yet either so I'm not bothered about what it looks like in IE 5.x at
this point in time.

HWhat I would like to know is what it looks like in any other browsers I
Ghaven't mentioned, particularly IE 5.2, Camino and Mozilla on the Mac.

MI need to tidy the code up a bit, but that said, it still validates as XHTML
'1.0 strict and the CSS also validates.

Cheers,

Luke Redpath
--
www.sonicdeath.co.uk/weblog
C"Celebrity Squares" - giving the web a CSS makeover - coming soon!

S13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [8]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:10:50 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3References: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
%Message-ID: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>

>
>
E> Here's my tip: create a <span> with a single space in it, like so:
B> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
4> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".
K> Now, without a stylesheet, you'll get the full link on one line - with a
I> space in the middle - but, in the styled version, the span will go on 
> to a
H> new line, but not actually show anything as there's only white-space 
	> in it,
> so it collapses.
-> There you have it - a CSS-only line break.
>
Yow!
-I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.

AWhy is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't

<p>
123 Trogdor St.<br />
Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
</p>

better than
p.address {margin: 0;}
'<p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
2<p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

besos
Miriam

-- 
http://www.surebluestudios.com

S13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [9]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:28:20 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3References: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
'Message-ID: <3EA82CC4.7030406@f2o.org>

>
E> Here's my tip: create a <span> with a single space in it, like so:
B> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
4> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".
K> Now, without a stylesheet, you'll get the full link on one line - with a
I> space in the middle - but, in the styled version, the span will go on 
> to a
H> new line, but not actually show anything as there's only white-space 
	> in it,
?> so it collapses. There you have it - a CSS-only line break. 


Yow!
-I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.

AWhy is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't

<p>
123 Trogdor St.<br />
Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
</p>

better than
p.address {margin: 0;}
'<p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
2<p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

besos
Miriam

-- 
http://www.surebluestudios.com


T13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [10]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:28:53 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
&In-Reply-To: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
'Message-ID: <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>

> <p>
> 123 Trogdor St.<br />
> Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
> </p>

.I suppose one could do similar with a list...
<ul>
<li>123 Trogdor St.</li>
<li>Strongbadia, Wherever</li>
</ul>

?but that's not really a list, is it, and is therefore just as 
&semantically meaningless as a <br />?
Hrrm.

besos
Miriam


--
http://www.surebluestudios.com
T13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [11]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:30:47 -0400
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
7Message-ID: <005301c30a8f$a31f3b80$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

GIf this is something that everyone knows about, forgive me for somehow
missing it somewhere!

CFor those redirecting non-compliant browsers via sniff or the cute
G"ahem" class that's revealed when the stylesheet isn't loaded... Where
Bare you going to send your non-compliant users now?  If anywhere?

C>From the page I always point to: http://webstandards.org/upgrade/

H"Note to site builders: The WaSP Browser Upgrade Campaign has come to a
Dclose. As such we ask that you discontinue your use of this upgrade
Hmessage and visit the Beyond the Browser Upgrade Campaign page to learn
about what to do instead."

:(

@This isn't old news is it? (I'll be really red-faced if it is).

ISo is there still a need to re-direct your non-compliant visitors, or do
Fyou agree with the sentiments about it just being an easy out for not
=testing our pages for some browsers like NN4 as expressed at
,http://webstandards.org/act/campaign/buc/ ?

FI personally, still see the need to redirect non-compliant users to a
Hpage that tells them more information, like where to obtain an upgrade,
Fwhy they were redirected (or why they were provided the link) and the
like.  Thoughts?

--Josh

T13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [12]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:33:01 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA82DDD.2080805@cookiecrook.com>


DI admit I haven't been paying as close attention to this thread as 
Ipossible, but what do you guys think of adding @media rules? Would this 
work?

6<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="all" />

DThen the stylesheet could include general styles still hidden from 
%Netscape 4, immediately followed by:

@media screen {
   @import "screen.css";
}
@media print {
   @import "print.css";
}

@Perhaps there are some bugs associated with this approach, too?

Just curious.
James

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [13]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:43:05 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241135500.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>


)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
> Ian Hickson wrote:
@>> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has
=>> delegated authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS
B>> working group, who has decided to change the default to "all".
>
,> Well, that would make *a lot* more sense!

GHeh. I've reminded the relevant person to add this to the HTML errata.


?> Ain't it great when even the "standards" are [in]consistent!

KThe people who write the browsers are the same as the people who write the
7specs... it's to be expected that both are flawed. ;-)

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
/From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Apr 24 20:02:24 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
&In-Reply-To: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Miriam Frost wrote:
>
C> Why is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't
>
> <p>
> 123 Trogdor St.<br />
> Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
> </p>
>
> better than
> p.address {margin: 0;}
)> <p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
4> <p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

Yes, it is. Even better is:

   <address>
   123 Trogdor St.<br>
   Strongbadia, Wherever<br>
   </address>

<<br> is only wrong when used to separate paragraphs, as in:

   Foo Bar.<br>
   <br>
   Baz.<br>
   <br>

...which would be better as:

   <p> Foo Bar. </p>
   <p> Baz. </p>

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
1From miriam at f2o.org  Thu Apr 24 20:04:35 2003
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:04:35 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EA83543.9040605@f2o.org>

>
>
>   <address>
>   123 Trogdor St.<br>
>   Strongbadia, Wherever<br>
>   </address>
>
D'oh!
JI have cause to use <address> so infrequently that it completely slipped 
	my mind.
%Off to wash the egg from my face....

besos
Miriam
T13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [14]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:12:29 -0500
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
-	<002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>


=>>I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
I>>http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html Explorer renders these
I>>as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a few problems with
2>>the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.
> 
B>If you change the classes to lowercase throughout it works fine.

GI can get the input's clickable area to enlarge in Mozilla and Opera, 
Abut not the actual visable representation like in IE. Is this a 
Fpreference setting or perhaps related to the XP native form elements?

Here's a screen shot.
@http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif

GOpera acts about the same except vertically aligned middle instead of 
bottom.

James


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [15]
=================
1From: lists at thinkbigideas.com (Anthony Baker)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 02:24:29 -0700
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
8In-Reply-To: <005301c30a8f$a31f3b80$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
4Message-ID: <001601c30a43$4e8a29f0$210110ac@BigGuy>



H| I personally, still see the need to redirect non-compliant users to a
?| page that tells them more information, like where to obtain 
| an upgrade,
H| why they were redirected (or why they were provided the link) and the
| like.  Thoughts?
| 
	| --Josh



DMake one of your own. Copy the content, create an upgrade page with
Ayour design, paste the content in. I did something similar on an
earlier site myself. 

DThat, or, someone could create another version of the page and have
Ait hosted somewhere, allowing folks to point to it. A grassroots
upgrade effort, as it were.

	/Anthony
T13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [16]
=================
,From: samuel at latchman.org (Sam Latchman)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:30:20 +0200
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
(In-Reply-To: <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
	<3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>
,Message-ID: <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>

9If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is

address {margin: 0;}
#<address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
)<address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>

3with possibly some class="street", class="city"...


::Sam

-- 
Samuel Latchman
-----------------
web designer [fr]
http://www.latchman.org/sam/


T13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [17]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
0In-Reply-To: <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
- <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
$ <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, James Craig wrote:
>
H> I can get the input's clickable area to enlarge in Mozilla and Opera,
B> but not the actual visable representation like in IE. Is this a
H> preference setting or perhaps related to the XP native form elements?
>
> Here's a screen shot.
B> http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif

KAssuming that shot is of Mozilla, then I would guess that the XP theme you
;use doesn't support scaling. What does it look like in IE?

FNote that at the moment, styling form controls is not covered by CSS.
GWhile we may be adding more control over this in future levels, at the
9moment, UA implementors can basically do what they like.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 20:57:40 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:57:40 -0500
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
-	<002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
$	<3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
+Message-ID: <3EA841B4.609@cookiecrook.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
*> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, James Craig wrote:
>
>>Here's a screen shot.
B>>http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif
> 
L>Assuming that shot is of Mozilla, then I would guess that the XP theme you
<>use doesn't support scaling. What does it look like in IE?

GYes, that's Mozilla 1.3 on Win XP. IE6 on XP gets the size right, but 
Duses the default browser form element appearance (black and white) 
Ginstead of the XP styled form controls. This is the default silver XP 
theme, not any add-on.

James

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [18]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:08:02 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD6@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

James Craig wrote:
E> I admit I haven't been paying as close attention to this thread as
E> possible, but what do you guys think of adding @media rules? Would
> this work?

FThat's exactly the way to go, and is what @media is designed for. The
Iproblem is, AFAIK, @media isn't well supported in some browser that have
Igood CSS support like IE5/Mac and some versions of KHTML-based browsers.

>> <link rel=3D"stylesheet" type=3D"text/css" media=3D"all" />
>=20
E> Then the stylesheet could include general styles still hidden from
'> Netscape 4, immediately followed by:
>=20
> @media screen {
>    @import "screen.css";
> }
> @media print {
>    @import "print.css";
> }
>=20
B> Perhaps there are some bugs associated with this approach, too?

DThat's kinda overkill if you're using it to block NN4, but it's the
Eideal way to work with media=3D"all" in that you're using @media.=20

FThe reason I say it's overkill is because NN4 doesn't get @import, so
*this, for example, would be just as good:

) <style type=3D"text/css" media=3D"all">
-  /* all-media general styles not for NN4 */

 </style>
 <style type=3D"text/css">
  @import "screen.css" screen;
  @import "print.css" print;

 </style>

IOr within that media=3D"all" CSS file (although I'm not sure if @media =
has
to come first, like @import):

-  /* all-media general styles not for NN4 */
 @media screen {
   /*rules for screen*/
 }
 @media print {
   /*rules for print*/
 }

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Thu Apr 24 21:24:45 2003
%From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:24:45 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <1051210553.6798@tweek.sebduggan.com>
2Message-ID: <1051215888.5130@tweek.sebduggan.com>


&> From: Miriam Frost <miriam@f2o.org>

> Yow!
/> I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.
> 
:> Why is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks

LThere's absolutely nothing wrong with line breaks. It's just that sometimes
Myou want your styled layout to break in a specific place, but have it appear
 as one line when it's unstyled.

T13:43:45.380 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [19]
=================
.From: info at n2dreamweaver.com (Donna Casey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:44:34 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3References: <1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com>
4Message-ID: <00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>

Itoo bad that the link to the "elm" program that actually works with this
Fstyle of non-munging list replies is an orphaned link...it seems that
Joutlook express doesn't offer a choice between individual and group, just
individual and all.

Donna

?> > http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssDiscussListHeaders
>
>
J> OK, I feel suitably chastened :)  It's just not the reply behaviour I'm
used
> to. I'm sure I'll adjust...
T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [20]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:56:57 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
CMessage-ID: <OFE5E77EAE.7CFFF59F-ON88256D12.0072C185@capgroup.com>


;> If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is

> address {margin: 0;}
%> <address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
+> <address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>

5> with possibly some class="street", class="city"...

HWe're getting off-topic here, but before we leave I'd like to point out
Jthat the above is not actually proper -- it denotes that each line of the
Laddress is an address itself, when in fact each element is only one part of
the address.

Thanks,

MikeL
T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [21]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:08:41 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] WaSP Upgrade Campaign.
7Message-ID: <010501c30aa5$af80eed0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

LI have put together a simple version of the WaSP Upgrade Campaign page that
Mcan be used in a similar manner as the previous one.  I used most of the old
&copy, so there should be no suprises.

%http://www.bewb.org/webstandards.asp


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [22]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:05:41 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
4Message-ID: <60376713968.20030424170541@mrclay.org>

9Thursday, April 24, 2003, 3:02:24 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:
8IH> <br> is only wrong when used to separate paragraphs

FThere are other instances where a line-break is visually preferred in
Fa certain place (rather than left to natural flow).  IMO, these cases
*warrant an alternate line-break solution.

ESay you have a heading that's just a tad too long for a single line:

$|  Welcome to My Page About Race  |
$|  Cars                           |

and you might want:

$|       Welcome to My Page        |
$|        About Race Cars          |

FA <br /> just really doesn't make sense structurally and playing with
Gmargins/padding until it wraps where you want is less-than-ideal (what
7if the user chooses a slightly bigger/different font).

8You could use non-breaking spaces to do something like:

E<h1>Welcome&nbsp;to&nbsp;My&nbsp;Page About&nbsp;Race&nbsp;Cars</h1>

2But this seems more elegant and content-friendly:

D<h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [23]
=================
9From: stephen at crescentcreative.com (Stephen Hamilton)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:01:18 -0700
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
4In-Reply-To: <009e01c30a1c$25ff5b80$650aa8c0@video>
3Message-ID: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>

GI don't know if it's correct form to reply to your own messages, but I
Ksolved most of my nested list / rollover issues with one remaining niggle.

IMy original problem was caused by not nesting the list elements properly
viz:

	<ul>
		<li>element1</li>
		<ul>
			<li>subelement1</li>
		</ul>
		<li>element2</li>
	</ul>

That piece is now corrected.

HHowever I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
8attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!

%Any pointers are always appreciated.

Stephen

-----Original Message-----
=From: Stephen Hamilton [mailto:stephen@crescentcreative.com]
(Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 9:44 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc


GI have built nested left navigation menus with CSS rollovers on a site
J(www.saveburlingameschools.com) and find significant differences from IE6
<versus Opera 7.1 , Netscape 7.0 , and Mozilla 1.3 (all W2K)

>1) IE does not pick up the color attribute for the text link:

.navbar li a {
 <snip>
  color: #880026;
 }

92) and IE does not pick up the submenu background image:

7http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/index.php?Topic=5

.subnavbar li a  {
 <snip>
1  background-image: url('pictures/submenu.gif');
   background-repeat: no-repeat;
  text-decoration: none;

LAll the other mentioned browsers seem to work ok (though there is a strange
;framing ssue with Mozilla that I haven't quite resolved!).

The style sheets are at :
2http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/measurea.css
8http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/measurealayout.css


.Any thoughts / pointers would be appreciated.

Many thanks

Stephen

J"There are many roads up the mountain, but they all lead to the top   ...
<The road is steep whichever way you go, so enjoy the view!"



T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [24]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:05:33 -0400
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
5In-Reply-To: <001601c30a43$4e8a29f0$210110ac@BigGuy>
7Message-ID: <006701c30aa5$3f66d010$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Anthony Baker : 
> Make one of your own. 

IYeah, that's what I plan on doing I think.. But my real main concern was
Ethe sites out there that have that reference that are now out of the
Fdesigner's control.  Thankfully I saw on Mark Pilgrim's site that the
Dpage isn't going anywhere, so we won't be sending folks to a 404 on
those older sites.
Ihttp://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/04/21/browser_upgrade_campaign_off
icially_retired.html

-- Josh

T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [25]
=================
*From: msauers at bcr.org (Michael Sauers)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:39:00 -0600
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
5In-Reply-To: <60376713968.20030424170541@mrclay.org>
;Message-ID: <KGEHKLFLLACNDPAKIHOPIEAHCPAA.msauers@bcr.org>

Steve;

KYou've just lost me completely. You're suggesting that <br /> doesn't make
Lsense to break a line into two but that we should span a space and classify
Iit as "br" (which you didn't say what that class is defined as) instead.

LWhy oh why would I do that? Why doesn't <br /> make sense structurally? Why
Mdo you suggest almost 15x the amount of code instead. This just doesn't make
7sense to me. Did I miss something in your explanation?

3--------------------------------------------------
,Michael Sauers, Librarian, Trainer & Author
*Bibliographical Center for Research (BCR)
3Aurora, CO :: 303-751-6277 x124 :: msauers@bcr.org
3--------------------------------------------------

G> Say you have a heading that's just a tad too long for a single line:
>
H> A <br /> just really doesn't make sense structurally and playing with
I> margins/padding until it wraps where you want is less-than-ideal (what
9> if the user chooses a slightly bigger/different font).
>
:> You could use non-breaking spaces to do something like:
>
G> <h1>Welcome&nbsp;to&nbsp;My&nbsp;Page About&nbsp;Race&nbsp;Cars</h1>
>
4> But this seems more elegant and content-friendly:
>
F> <h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [26]
=================
#From: rudy937 at rogers.com (rudy)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:44:06 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
3References: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>
<Message-ID: <003f01c30aaa$a3bebb90$0cb96618@r9373j4yqbe8dy>

J> However I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
:> attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!
"> (www.saveburlingameschools.com)

*i love the apple with the bite out of it!

Lhowever, the colours on the nav links are identical in ie6 and mozilla, and
5in fact are no different in link versus hover status

,hover underlines the links in both browsers


rudy
T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [27]
=================
)From: d.abraham at netgates.co.uk (Dave)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:59:14 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3References: <1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com>
)	<00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
2Message-ID: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>

JI am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
Hresource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
replies. Not much use at all.

MI don't understand the logic behind it, anyone know of any other CSS mailing
)lists that don't adopt this odd policy??

LPS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna Casey
(sorry Donna) Not good at all.

T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [28]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:02:01 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
3References: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>
2Message-ID: <006801c30aad$226a5600$6401a8c0@yoda>

J> However I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
:> attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!

.Link colors are controlled by pseudo-classes.

.navbar li a:link {
color: #880026;
}

Lonnie
<From contact at lukeredpath.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 23:51:28 2003
2From: contact at lukeredpath.co.uk (Luke Redpath)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:51:28 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
EMessage-ID: <ENEMIKFCPDMDJCEEJFPPEEKNCGAA.contact@lukeredpath.co.uk>

JIf you are using Outlook to use this list, it's not hard to adjust - just
Jhit reply to all instead, and quickly delete the sender from the to list,
leaving the list address.

Simple!

Cheers,

Luke Redpath
--
www.sonicdeath.co.uk/weblog
C"Celebrity Squares" - giving the web a CSS makeover - coming soon!

T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [29]
=================
%From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:54:53 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051221498.17020@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051224895.24032@tweek.sebduggan.com>


+> From: "Michael Sauers" <msauers@bcr.org>
> 
M> You've just lost me completely. You're suggesting that <br /> doesn't make
N> sense to break a line into two but that we should span a space and classify
K> it as "br" (which you didn't say what that class is defined as) instead.
> 
N> Why oh why would I do that? Why doesn't <br /> make sense structurally? Why
O> do you suggest almost 15x the amount of code instead. This just doesn't make
9> sense to me. Did I miss something in your explanation?

KIf you put a <br /> in the middle of a sentence, it puts a hard structural
Mbreak in - where what you really want is a purely layout break which doesn't
affect the flow of the words.

MIt basically goes to the core of separating layout from content - in Steve's
Kexample, the <br /> is being used just for layout, and should therefore be
frowned on.

T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [30]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:01:36 -0700 (PDT)
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
-In-Reply-To: <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
< <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org> <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241558520.15423-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Sam Latchman wrote:
>
;> If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is
>
> address {margin: 0;}
%> <address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
+> <address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>
>
5> with possibly some class="street", class="city"...

G<address> is a block-level element, it contains a single block address
9(well, actually, a single block of contact information).

HThe above markup would be two addresses, not one. One address should be
Kmarked up with one <address> element, with lineBReaks marked up with <br>.

G<br> is fine, it's only "evil" when it is used to do something that is
Jstrictly presentational. An address has multiple lines even when you read
,it out over the phone, so <br> makes sense.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
;From mark.r.stevens at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 00:00:38 2003
1From: mark.r.stevens at attbi.com (markinoregon)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:00:38 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
DMessage-ID: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>

GWhat's the big deal, I just right click on the message I want to reply
Mto,click reply-all, then remove the person's e-mail address from the to bar,
'like I did just now with Dave's reply.
IIt's just a matter of people being aware of who the addresses are in the
Kreply to header. we all know the horror stories in a corporate environment
Fwhere some knucklehead reply's about something sensitive to EVERYONE!

<>I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
>replies. Not much use at all.

KI TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
Kpeople on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
Kto try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
Athinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.

just my .02 cents.

-----Original Message-----
*From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org
>[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org]On Behalf Of Dave
'Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 2:59 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
*Subject: Re: [css-d] Replying to the list


JI am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
Hresource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
replies. Not much use at all.

MI don't understand the logic behind it, anyone know of any other CSS mailing
)lists that don't adopt this odd policy??

LPS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna Casey
(sorry Donna) Not good at all.


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [31]
=================
=From: Eli_Simpson at capgroup.com (Eli_Simpson@capgroup.com)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:14:15 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
CMessage-ID: <OF6AFD6A44.5D94CB6C-ON88256D12.007DFF19@capgroup.com>


F> <h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

EWith that solution you could end up with breaks between other words,
Idepending on font/window sizes.  Here's what I would do if you wanted to
5force a line break at that exact place and no other:

C<h1 style="white-space: nowrap">Welcome to My Page<br />About Race

Cars</h1>
T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [32]
=================
)From: d.abraham at netgates.co.uk (Dave)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:14:16 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
DReferences: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>
2Message-ID: <007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>


M> I TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
M> people on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
M> to try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
C> thinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.
>
> just my .02 cents.

MI have not been around long enough to see that. I am not saying people don't
Lhelp,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making the information
Lharder to find. It is more of an assumption and an observation after only a
day of watching mind.


T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [33]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:41:44 -0400
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
DReferences: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>
'	<007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>
#Message-ID: <3EA87638.46D7@ij.net>

Dave wrote:
 
> markinoregon wrote:

O> > I TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
O> > people on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
O> > to try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
E> > thinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.
 
O> I have not been around long enough to see that. I am not saying people don't
N> help,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making the information
N> harder to find. It is more of an assumption and an observation after only a
> day of watching mind.

Offlist replies mean:

E1-Others have no clue how many or even if others have responded to a
Brequest, which means there's no way for others to know whether an
+(additional) reply from them is warranted.

C2-Validity checking is unavailable. If others don't see responses,
:defective replies aren't trapped for rebuttal/correction.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [34]
=================
.From: info at n2dreamweaver.com (Donna Casey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:43:55 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
References: 
O	<1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com><00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
'	<002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
4Message-ID: <003c01c30abb$5ef43290$7802a8c0@buglet>


H> PS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna
Casey
!> (sorry Donna) Not good at all.

Mnot a problem but my point was that the link to the ELM program was defunct.
JI found the setup here odd at first but adjusted even with OE after a few
'abrupt messages from the email police.

I--mostly lurk and snatch up the delicious crumbs of CSS that others drop
here and there....

J<slithering back to a dark corner of the list.....we loves it here, don't
we, my preciousssss......>

T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [35]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:50:04 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
References: 
O	<1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com><00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
'	<002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
2Message-ID: <00f701c30abc$3abdc2f0$fd00a8c0@mike>

Dave

KI rarely send a message to a list... and though I've been an ardent lurker
Bfor a while this may well be the first time I have written to it.

JYou may already have learned something from replies as to how to reply to
Mthe list. Simple enough to use "reply-all" etc but so many people don't know
it.

MMore seriously, on CSS, there is no way you will get better quality in-depth
LCSS info anywhere. Far in advance of (incompetent) table based Web-dev too.
FWriter's to the list have combined technical knowledge and experience
Eunequalled. Enormously helpful, almost always on topic, friendly and
Hrespectful. Better than books or formal study. Stay with it a while and
Hyou'll see what I mean, give yourself time to get the "feel" of all the
helpful characters involved.

HTH, and welcome.

Mike
Edinburgh, Scotland

L> I am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
J> resource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
 > replies. Not much use at all.
T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [36]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:54:42 -0400
ISubject: [css-d] Helpfulness of the list (was Re:  Replying to the list)
3In-Reply-To: <007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>
7Message-ID: <007801c30abc$e3252e60$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



	> Dave :
<> I have not been around long enough to see that. I am not 
> saying people don't
?> help,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making 
> the information
6> harder to find. It is more of an assumption and an 
> observation after only a
> day of watching mind.


GJust a friendly suggestion Dave, hang out and give it a bit more time.
FWhat you don't see yet, and what impressed the hell outta me was just
>*how much* time some people here put into helping others with
Hworkarounds, helping with bug research, browser/os issues and the like.
BA lot of that help seems to happen on off time like after work or
Ebetween projects (I assume a lot of other people 'work' for a living
around here). 

EIf you take a cruise through the archives, it'll become obvious that
Isome of those answers and suggestions take a LONG time just to formulate
Ibefore it makes it to the list.  I say obvious because of the sheer size
"and complexity of some of them.  

EGo through and look at some of the replies from Holly Bergevin... At
Itimes she's reproduced entire pages with full code and original graphics
Hjust to help someone with their trouble.  And she's not the only one, I
Hdon't mean to exclude anyone, she's just the first that came to memory.
GPersonally, I can't figure out where some of these kind people get the
time!

CMany times people will solve their own problem that was previously
Eposted to the list and are kind enough to say "I figured it out, and
here's how..."

HDon't forget, many subscribe as Digest Mode, so they only get one email
Ea day, not every single one.  This slows down the process a bit too.

HYMMV, but I looked for a while JUST for this kind of help and this kind
Gof discussion, and while there are some other nice places out there, I
Hreally think, bang-for-the-buck, you just can't beat this list for this
particular issue. :)

--Josh


T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [37]
=================
;From: css-discuss at plumlee.org (css-discuss@plumlee.org)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:22:43 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
<Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030424201237.00bbd7c0@plumlee.org>

LI've been trying to use the excellent layouts provided by Alex Robinson to 
;cure a layout with Mac IE problems.  Ran across something 
Minteresting/infuriating and I'm hoping that someone here can either explain 
6it to me or point me in the direction of a known bug.

CUsing this layout, I tried to set up a page with a fixed width of 
.762px.  Left column is 120px, right is 145px.
�http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml?order=213&width_one=50&width_two=120&width_three=145&wrap_width=762&column_gutter=0&column_vertical_padding=0&column_horizontal_padding=0&columns_background=1&border_surround=0&body_padding=0&longest_column=one&controls=1&show_style=0

LLooks great in Mozilla and Opera.  If I try to place an image in the right 
Jhand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE 
5refuses to display the content in that third column.

HShorten the length of the image by 4px, and it displays.  Lengthen the 
Loverall length of the container div by 4px, it displays.  It looks like IE 
Kis placing a a 4px padding around the image.  Tried setting it to display 
&inline and block, no luck either way.

IBut if I float the image left or right, IE 6 works perfectly.  I've run 
Lacross problems where IE 6 collapses padding and margins when elements are 
Jadjacent to floated elements, so it seems that I'm taking advantage of a 
hack here.

Any thoughts?

Scott Plumlee
JPGP Public key: http://plumlee.org/pgp/   D64C 47D9 B855 5829 D22A  D390 
F8E2 9B58 9CBF 1F8D
T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [38]
=================
0From: earthwrk at earthlink.net (Bill Scheider)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:00:41 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <00f701c30abc$3abdc2f0$fd00a8c0@mike>
BMessage-ID: <MABBLFKKJOFHOKMHGDFOKEEOCPAA.earthwrk@earthlink.net>

	Hi Mike,

9I totally agree with you RE the quality of the CSS info.

MIt's not only better than books but many of the folks discussing CSS on this
:list have /written/ the books! It doesn't get any better.

Bill
G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

T13:43:45.381 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [39]
=================
,From: john at evolt.org.uk (John Handelaar)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 03:09:36 +0100
NSubject: ADMIN: End of thread, please. (was RE: [css-d] Replying to the list,
	and others)
CIn-Reply-To: <MABBLFKKJOFHOKMHGDFOKEEOCPAA.earthwrk@earthlink.net>
=Message-ID: <HNEPIHIKGMNGPEJJCMGMGEGACGAA.john@evolt.org.uk>


3My apologies to those who were wondering where the
 stand-in listmom went to today.

0It's time to stop this thread, I think, in the 
4interest of maintaining our regular signal-to-noise
ratio.

1Eric's position on header munging is very clear,
.and the relevant explanation on the wiki was 
posted earlier this afternoon.

3That wiki post also makes it abundantly clear that
3the place to drag this up (since it's clearly off-
-topic) is in private mail to the list owner.

-Eric will be back in a couple of weeks.  I'd
2appreciate not getting mail on the subject during
4his absence since I'm certainly not about to change
5the list settings without being able to consult him.

3I hope that I don't have to enforce this tomorrow,

folks :-)

Thanks for your attention.

John H
Server admin
,On behalf of the currently-absent Mr Meyer.

+------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

+T +44 20 8459 4923       M +44 7930 681789
+F +44 870 169 7657   E john@userfrenzy.com
+------------------------------------------
:From chris at placenamehere.com  Fri Apr 25 04:26:50 2003
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:26:50 -0400
CSubject: [css-d] [ANNC] PNH Developer Toolbar for Mozilla/Netscape
6In-Reply-To: <BAC2D566.52680%chris@placenamehere.com>
5Message-ID: <BACE233A.5380F%chris@placenamehere.com>

Eon 4/16/03 9:39 AM, Chris Casciano at chris@placenamehere.com wrote:

L> Since the cat is out of the bag already I figured I'd pass along the word
?> that I've released a toolbar add on for web developers using
> Mozilla/Netscape.
> 

1v0.51 is here! you firebird users get your wish!

%http://placenamehere.com/pnhtoolbar/

"Change Log for v0.51 (from v0.50)
F* Added a Firebird/Phoenix compatible installer w/ minor link changes
!* Added encoding of complex URLs
* Fixed a few typos
)* Added submission the W3C P3P Validator
)* Added Link to the DevEdge Sidebar Tabs

8Grab it now! Feedback to moz@placenamehere.com, please.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
T13:43:45.382 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [40]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:08 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
5Message-ID: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>

1Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
MS> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
KS> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
)S> stylesheets, there would be no break.

GSince this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
(for the methods described by Seb and I:
!http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
T13:43:45.382 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [41]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:25:09 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] Select first LI of an UL
>In-Reply-To: <F552B577-74D1-11D7-B5E8-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
=References: <F552B577-74D1-11D7-B5E8-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
3Message-ID: <12059885896.20030424222509@attbi.com>

6Arlen wrote on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 at 9:51:54 AM:

> li {font-weight: bold;}
> li + li {font-weight:normal}

B> [...] When it fails, the entire list will be bolded, so perhaps
?> you'll want to combine it with a hack that screens out those
1> browsers from seeing the initial bold styling.

CThis should have a better success rate, and it's not really a hack
;(i.e., it makes common sense, even if it is a bit longer):

    ul>li{font-weight:bold}
!    ul>li+li{font-weight:normal}

@There aren't many browsers that support child selectors without
'supporting adjacent sibling selectors.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.382 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [42]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:22:54 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] lists line height
7In-Reply-To: <014101c30931$efd61ca0$6001a8c0@felwithe>
3References: <000001c30930$2a93df00$42d5fea9@Estes>
+ <014101c30931$efd61ca0$6001a8c0@felwithe>
2Message-ID: <8263351585.20030424232254@attbi.com>

7Brandy wrote on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 at 7:47:37 PM:

$> http://clients.mediadiva.net/css/

C> The links on the left bottom side, I have the line height set to
E> 120, and I like how it looks, but I thought it was possible to set
?> the height between each LI element and then the height of an
G> individual LI element itself. This way links the run over to 2 lines
)> will look like 1 link and not 2 links.

'> Anyone know what I am talking about?

BYes. Although it took me a while to understand. :) If you want to
Cretain the line-height but have the links' background-color remain
G"together" over multiple lines, I think you'll need to use padding-top
3and padding-bottom on the a elements. For example:

    ul li a{padding:.2em 0}

CShould do the trick. You may also consider this, depending on your
0needs, but I doubt it will be more appropriate:

    ul>li a{padding:.2em 0}

$Support isn't as good, at any rate.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.382 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [43]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:18:01 -0500
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
4In-Reply-To: <000001c30a0f$5ab9d060$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
3References: <000001c30a0f$5ab9d060$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
3Message-ID: <14863058716.20030424231801@attbi.com>

9Aleem wrote on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 at 10:12:35 PM:

D> When I said semantic, I wasn't looking for a response along these
G> lines, but rather something which went beyond - example: by default,
F> does the body have a margin of ~10px from the frame or a padding of
D> 10px within? Is either semantically correct? In publishing, pages
C> don't have a frame (chrome) and since electronic publishing is a
D> derivative of print, I would go with padding instead of margin on
> that one.

ACSS agrees with you. <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/sample.html>

AI don't think it's possible to make a case for margin, if you're
Efamiliar with the spec. Of course that's what most browsers use. The
Eabove sample style sheet is just a suggestion, which is a good thing
	overall.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.382 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [44]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:23:38 -0500
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
0In-Reply-To: <3EA750F0.4020602@adelaide.edu.au>
3References: <000601c309f6$2e39ca90$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
$ <3EA750F0.4020602@adelaide.edu.au>
1Message-ID: <663395931.20030424232338@attbi.com>

8Steve wrote on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 at 9:50:24 PM:

?> <aside> Seems to me that many posts to this list are readily
@> answered by reference to the CSS2 spec. OK, it's not the most
G> readable spec in the world, and sometimes you need to read something
E> two or three times before you get it, but, it is worth reading. If
E> you haven't got it, get it. Mine is on my desk, or nearby, all the
> time. </aside>

-Those types of questions aren't discouraged.
+<http://www.css-discuss.org/policies.html>

FYour advice is nonetheless helpful, of course. I think what we really
Gneed is a comprehensive "spec for dummies," a document that deals with
CCSS2 as simply as possible, written for CSS authors instead of CSS
Fimplementors. A basic CSS vocabulary tutorial alone would be amazing;
Eeven veteran authors fudge their technospeak jargon. I think most of
Dthe CSS2 spec is pretty readable nowadays, but a couple years ago I
!was confused by simple passages.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.382 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [45]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:24:35 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
6In-Reply-To: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
*	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
/Message-ID: <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>

Steve Clay wrote:
3> Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
O> S> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
M> S> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
+> S> stylesheets, there would be no break.
> 
I> Since this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
*> for the methods described by Seb and I:
#> http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks

Nice page!

I notice you used

	white-space:pre-line;

 whereas the CSS2 spec at W3 has

	white-space:pre;

"Is this something new? Or a typo?


:I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using 
Awhitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in 
9the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

@<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
#   <meta http-equiv="content-type"
+  content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
/   <meta name="author" content="Steve Thomas">
   <title>Test</title>
   <style type="text/css">
      h1 { text-align: center; }
"     h1#pref { white-space:pre; }
   </style>
</head>
<body>
#<h1 id="pref">Dr. Strangelove,<br>
or:<br>
6How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb</h1>
<p>Blah blah blah</p>
</body>
</html>

AOn browsers which don't implement whitespace, this will degrade 
Anicely. Those that do will display the heading precisely as you 
@want. (With the caveat that whitespace:pre will keep each line 
:as given, even with narrow windows, requiring scrolling.)

AAbove all, this preserves the semantic integrity of the heading 
*intact, without the need to embed coding.


Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
T13:43:45.382 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [46]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:00:58 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
6Message-ID: <0C1E480F.3B3D924D.009CE500@netscape.net>

css-discuss@plumlee.org wrote:

$>layouts provided by Alex Robinson 

�>http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml?order=213&width_one=50&width_two=120&width_three=145&wrap_width=762&column_gutter=0&column_vertical_padding=0&column_horizontal_padding=0&columns_background=1&border_surround=0&body_padding=0&longest_column=one&controls=1&show_style=0

*>If I try to place an image in the right 
M>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6. �IE 
6>refuses to display the content in that third column.

�Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the size of the image. Is it possible you have a page you could put up so your specific case can be looked at? That would make it easier to give specific suggestions instead of theoritical ones.

�As for hacks for IE, (and other browsers as needed), in my opinion, they are inevitable. As long as they validate, and don't mess something up for another browser (that cannot be worked around) you're probably going to have to use some. 

�However, I always try to see if I can write/fix a page in such a way as to use the least number possible. What that means is if IE6 needs to have and image floated to work, and floating that image doesn't bother other browsers, I write it so the image is floated and move on to something else. 

Now, about that URL...

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
4From gleemax at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 06:10:45 2003
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:10:45 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
0In-Reply-To: <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
M <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org> <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
3Message-ID: <12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>

8Steve wrote on Thursday, April 24, 2003 at 11:54:35 PM:

 >         white-space:pre-line;

$> Is this something new? Or a typo?

8It's new in CSS 2.1, which is not yet a recommendation:
8<http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/text.html#white-space-prop>

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.382 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [47]
=================
,From: gavin at refinery.com (Gavin Kistner)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:21:43 -0600
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
@Message-ID: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>

EForgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the 
<browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
0http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

CMy expectation was for the way Camino/Mozilla did it to be right. 
F(Under the assumption that 100% was based off of the 'standard' line 
Fheight, and hence >100% should result in increased line spacing, not 
decreased.)

HBut now the spec seems to imply that something like Safari may be more 
Ecorrect. I'm just...very unused to Mozilla getting something wrong. 
I(Camino is built off of the Mozilla 1.0 trunk, IIRC, but the appearance 
is the same in 1.2.1 also.)
T13:43:45.382 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [48]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:06:24 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
M	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org> <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
(	<12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA8C958.2010405@adelaide.edu.au>

John Lewis wrote:
:> Steve wrote on Thursday, April 24, 2003 at 11:54:35 PM:
> 
> 
 >>        white-space:pre-line;
> 
> 
$>>Is this something new? Or a typo?
> 
> 
:> It's new in CSS 2.1, which is not yet a recommendation:
9> <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/text.html#white-space-prop
> 

@Thanks. And amazingly, although not yet even a recommendation, 
 it works! (In Moz 1.2.1 anyway)

AI guess on reflection, that gives you an insight into how these 
0standards are generated in the first place. :-)

	Regards,
Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
T13:43:45.388 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [49]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:47:25 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Path Positioning Problem.
6Message-ID: <02A69262.14063CDB.009CE500@netscape.net>

5"Will Boyett" <WBoyett@smtp.co.alachua.fl.us> wrote:

I>Hello all, I'm still rather new to this list, and so appologize for any
>faux pas on my part.

Hi Will - Welcome to the list.

>here is my dilema:
>
H>I am trying to make a local path statement in a bar, with a link to my
L>site map on the right margin of the same bar. �So far, so good. However,
E>my Site Map link keeps overlapping the text of my path statement on
>narrow monitors, 
[snip]

�Now I have to apologize, because even with your explanation and the code you provided, you lost me. Is it possible for you to provide a URL to the page in question so we can give it a look see? If the content is restricted, strip it out and replace it with dummy text. Working with the actual page generally offers the best opportunity for someone to provide helpful advice.

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
8From holnkids at netscape.net  Fri Apr 25 07:04:05 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:04:05 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
6Message-ID: <69589F46.5F9A91EF.009CE500@netscape.net>

#Donna m87 <dm87@rogers.com> wrote:

H>I have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
H>header, content and footer. �When the content increases, the footer 
>is overwritten.
>
D>How can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
D>volume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?
>
G>What sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

aHi Donna - Have you seen the wiki pages about different layout options? The main page is here - 
0http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts

�There are links to several other wiki pages from the above page that discuss the merits and difficulties of various types of layouts as well as links to outside sources. 

�In addition, Bob Easton has assembled a very nice collection of links to 3-column-layouts (with notes about the techniques used on each) - 
8http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ThreeColumnLayouts

gIf you don't need that many columns, many 3-column layouts can be adjusted to work with fewer columns.

HTH,

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Fri Apr 25 09:18:24 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:18:24 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051243530.20492@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051258707.23490@tweek.sebduggan.com>


JThanks Steve - I couldn't have explained it better myself (and, indeed, I
didn't...).

Seb


&> From: Steve Clay <steve@mrclay.org>
*> Reply-To: Steve Clay <steve@mrclay.org>
(> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:08 -0400
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
3> Subject: Re: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
> 
> 
3> Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
O> S> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
M> S> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
+> S> stylesheets, there would be no break.
> 
I> Since this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
*> for the methods described by Seb and I:
#> http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks
> 
> Steve
> -- 
> http://mrclay.org/
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 

T13:43:45.388 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [50]
=================
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:22:35 +0100
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
2Message-ID: <1051262556.1547@tweek.sebduggan.com>


:Is there any way to set the minimum height of an element?

LThere is the CSS2 property min-height, but it only seems to be supported in
MOpera 6+ and Gecko/Mozilla browsers - no versions of IE, or the current beta
(of Safari (although it may come later).

JSo, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x pixels
Lhigh, while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary? (And before
Lsomeone suggests it, I don't intend putting a 1px x 400px gif in my page ;)


Seb

T13:43:45.388 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [51]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:28:02 +0200
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

E> So, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x
pixels high,=20
:while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary?
GIn IE on PC, it will expand if you have set the height to 20px and its
content is bigger...
FHowever, you can't use min-height and height in conjunction for Gecko
etc.

So, for IE on PC, use this:

height:20px;

0and for standrads-compliant browsers, use this:

min-height:20px;


/Robert
1From rijk at opera.com  Fri Apr 25 10:46:42 2003
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:46:42 +0200
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
MReferences: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
)Message-ID: <oprn6ir4x6yoq9u9@localhost>

LOn Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:28:02 +0200, Robert Nyman <robert.nyman@centus.com> 
wrote:

F>> So, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x
J>> pixels high, while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary?

I> In IE on PC, it will expand if you have set the height to 20px and its
> content is bigger...
H> However, you can't use min-height and height in conjunction for Gecko
> etc.
>
> So, for IE on PC, use this:
>
> height:20px;
2> and for standrads-compliant browsers, use this:
> min-height:20px;

For example like this:

$div {height:20px; min-height:20px;}
html>body div {height:auto;}

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
@ making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com M
T13:43:45.388 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [52]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:59:02 +0100
ISubject: [css-d] safari and mac IE5 hacks or alternative layout solution
	needed
0Message-ID: <3EA906E6.1010304@starskiweb.co.uk>

Hi All

JI need some help with this conversion from a table layout to a tableless 
layout. This is it so far:-

:http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/3_col_margin_border.htm

GI have a fixed width 3 column layout with a liquid header and footer. 
HColumns 2 and 3 have their own header. I have tried various solutions, 
Cbut currently I have 2 main floating columns, the second of which 
Econtains two floating sub columns. I have used a top margin to push 
Jthese two sub columns down and have an absolutely positioned heading for 
Jthese columns. The center and right columns need a border so this was my 
.main reason for wrapping them in another div.

EThis works on PC IE5 and 6, Mozilla 1.3, but safari (not sure which 
Mversion) the footer wont stay put and and IE5 mac the main column drifts up.

HThis doesn't need to support Netscape 4 - I will be hiding most of the 
styling from that.

--
Rick Hurst
http://hypothecate.co.uk
T13:43:45.388 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [53]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:48:47 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
6In-Reply-To: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
*	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
/Message-ID: <3EA90B87.3010409@adelaide.edu.au>

>Arrgghh! Apologies to all, my HTML editor mangled my example 
Bcode, which should of course NOT have <br> tags in the middle of 
:the header. Here's the corrected version (at the risk of 
prolonging the bordom):

...

9I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
@whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
9the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

@<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
$    <meta http-equiv="content-type"
,   content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
0    <meta name="author" content="Steve Thomas">
    <title>Test</title>
    <style type="text/css">
!      h1 { text-align: center; }
#      h1#pref { white-space:pre; }
    </style>
</head>
<body>
<h1 id="pref">Dr. Strangelove,
or:
6How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb</h1>
<p>Blah blah blah</p>
</body>
</html>

@On browsers which don't implement whitespace, this will degrade
@nicely. Those that do will display the heading precisely as you
?want. (With the caveat that whitespace:pre will keep each line
:as given, even with narrow windows, requiring scrolling.)

@Above all, this preserves the semantic integrity of the heading
*intact, without the need to embed coding.

<(And no, whitespace:pre-line; doesn't work in Moz1.2.1/PC.)


8Hopefully that makes more sense than the previous post.


Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
T13:43:45.388 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [54]
=================
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:06 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051266048.25755@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051268466.27913@tweek.sebduggan.com>


6> From: Steve Thomas <stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au>
>....
;> I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
B> whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
;> the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

MVery nice Steve - this seems to be the most elegant solution so far - and it
2seems to work in every browser I've thrown it at!

(I'll be changing my own code to this...


Seb

T13:43:45.388 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [55]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:00:13 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
AIn-Reply-To: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
3Message-ID: <16087194233.20030425060013@attbi.com>

6Gavin wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 12:21:43 AM:

2> http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

D> My expectation was for the way Camino/Mozilla did it to be right.
G> (Under the assumption that 100% was based off of the 'standard' line
G> height, and hence >100% should result in increased line spacing, not
> decreased.)

BThe suggested default line-height value is between 1 and 1.2, but
Athere is no rule saying browsers need to follow it. Any value is
Facceptable according to CSS2. That means it's impossible to determine
Gif a value greater than 100% will be bigger, smaller, or the same. All
:this without taking crazy user style sheets into account!

FAfter reading CSS2, playing with line-height in Opera 7.1 and Mozilla
G1.4a, and comparing renderings for far too long, I'm stumped. I really
Fhave very little idea of how the inline box model and line-height are
Gsupposed to work. For the most part, with identical values Mozilla and
FOpera returned similar and even identical results. That's comforting.
GFor some reason, Mozilla doesn't behave anything like Camino. At first
EI thought my test page was strange; then I visited your page and the
EMozilla result look basically identical to Opera and Safari. I can't
Dexplain the Mac IE or Camino results. I don't expect line-height to
5behave like that, but I'm pretty weak on the theory.

8The shoddiness of the Win IE rendering is self-evident.

BI'd be interested to see if anyone knows or can figure out why my
AMozilla and your Camino rendering look so different. I don't use
BMozilla much, so I haven't changed anything but the default font.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.388 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [56]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:11:04 +0200
OSubject: [css-d] Tip: How to add a rule with script and use the Box Model Hack
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D2@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

ITo use the Box Model hack in script, you need to add an extra backslash,
Hsince JavaScript interprets the first one for string escape purposes...

	Example:

6oStyleSheet.addRule("div.levelItem", "height:22px;");
8oStyleSheet.addRule("div.levelItem", "he\\ight:20px;");


/Robert
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Fri Apr 25 12:23:06 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:23:06 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D3@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

<Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only,
(which browsers are the most common etc?


/Robert
8From rick at starskiweb.co.uk  Fri Apr 25 13:10:08 2003
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:10:08 +0100
3Subject: [css-d] how do I hide style from Mac IE5?
0Message-ID: <3EA925A0.4080609@starskiweb.co.uk>

FI've made some progress with my liquid header and footer/fixed width 
Jcolumns layout problem and now my only real concern is the IE5 mac mess:-

)http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v6.htm

>so what I want now is just a hack to hide styles from mac IE5

cheers

--
Rick Hurst
http://hypothecate.co.uk
T13:43:45.388 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [57]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:09:11 +0200
3Subject: [css-d] how do I hide style from Mac IE5?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052DC@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

@> so what I want now is just a hack to hide styles from mac IE5
8http://www.sam-i-am.com/testsuite/css/mac_ie5_hack.html

/Robert
3From dmead at optiem.com  Fri Apr 25 13:21:47 2003
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:21:47 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] Hyperlink position in NN4.7
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E928D@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

Hi all,

EI've only joined the list yesterday and I already have a question to
pose.

GI'm designing a web site that has to be "viewable" down to NN4.7.  I'm
Iusing table with some CSS to style content in the cells etc.  My problem
	is this.

EMy footer nav runs nicely along the bottom (shortened version here):

  <div class=3D"footernav">=20
0  <p>&nbsp;<a href=3D"#">MENU</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a
#href=3D"#">LOCATIONS&nbsp;</a></p>
	  </div>

with the CSS code:

E  .footernav { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
G8px; color: #FEAC22; text-decoration: none; background-color: #7B0808;
padding: 5px 10px; }
H  .footernav a:link { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:
E#FEAC22; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px; background-color:
transparent; }
D  .footernav a:visited { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
:color: #FEAC22; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px;
 background-color: transparent;}
I  .footernav a:hover { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:
E#FFFFFF; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px; background-color:
transparent; }

=It looks fine in IE but when viewed in NN4.7 the links stack
Hone-on-top-of-another instead of side-by-side!  I've created a separate
Fstyle sheet for NN and removed the padding from the CSS code and this
Fbunches them all up (hence the two &nbsp; between links).  Is there a
)way around this or is this the best fix.

FI did a quick check through the archives but didn't turn anything up.
FApologies if the code is a little sloppy but I'm still finding my CSS
feet so to speak.

Many thanks,

Dave
T13:43:45.388 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [58]
=================
4From: larz at cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Ryan La Riviere)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:38:54 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] New CSS2 Site - XHTML 1.0
7In-Reply-To: <006f01c30920$b0d61750$6001a8c0@felwithe>
6Message-ID: <BACE968E.27D21%larz@cbis.ece.drexel.edu>

JOn 04/22/2003 18:44, "Brandy (mediadiva)" <fortuneb@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> who did?
> 
>> 
1>> Yea...spelled Cingular wrong on the file.  :/

JMe on the screenshot's file name I had uploaded...I should have specified
the "I" part.

-Ryan

-- 
Mr. Ryan La Riviere
6Project Manager; Mechanical Engineering and Mechanics
*College of Engineering; Drexel University
Philadelphia, PA 19104

*hp: http://staff.tdec.drexel.edu/~edljedi
IM (AIM, Yahoo, MSN): edljedi
w: 215.895.6460
<Geek Code: http://staff.tded.drexel.edu/~edljedi/geeksville

HOne thing the hardware engineers just can't seem to get the bugs out of
is... fresh paint.
T13:43:45.388 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [59]
=================
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:51:43 +0000
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>



=>Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only,
)>which browsers are the most common etc?

+My own stats, for what they're worth, say:

Ecxplorer 5    69%
Safari         15%
Mozilla         6%
Netscape 6      4%
Netscape 4      4%
Explorer 4      2%

NNote that these numbers are mainly from my development sites which attract a 
7higher share of non-IE browsers than the average site.

IWhichever stats you'll find, please keep in mind that Safari's share is 
Igoing to rise dramatically when it becomes the default browser for OS X.

GAny Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and 
Safari.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
;MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
)http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
T13:43:45.389 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [60]
=================
;From: css-discuss at plumlee.org (css-discuss@plumlee.org)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:54:17 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
7In-Reply-To: <0C1E480F.3B3D924D.009CE500@netscape.net>
<Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030425084249.00b5a738@plumlee.org>

(At 01:00 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:

+ >>If I try to place an image in the right
L >>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE
8 >>refuses to display the content in that third column.
 >
L >Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I
N >could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending
M >on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the
M >size of the image. Is it possible you have a page you could put up so your
M >specific case can be looked at? That would make it easier to give specific
+ >suggestions instead of theoritical ones.

6thank you for the response.  I've placed a page here:
Lhttp://wgi.org/2003/indexmac2.php where you can copy the code and watch it 
Hhappen.  Allow the float, works in IE.  Remove the float, doesn't show.

MWith the float: left in place for the img tag, it display correctly in IE 6 
>and Mozilla and Opera 7.10.  Without it, it vanishes in IE 6.

JAgain, many thinks to Alex Robinson for all the work on the page, and to 
Kthe other contributors (including Holly, I believe) that are listed there.

M >However, I always try to see if I can write/fix a page in such a way as to
M >use the least number possible. What that means is if IE6 needs to have and
F >image floated to work, and floating that image doesn't bother other
N >browsers, I write it so the image is floated and move on to something else.

JI appreciate the advice.  I think I might have a "immovable object meets 
>the irresistible force" complex about this problem right now.
T13:43:45.389 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [61]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:57:14 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052E0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

Interesting!
GEspecially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
!dramatically increase later on).
IHave you seen any pattern when it comes to versions of IE, i.e. 5.0, 5.1
	and 5.2?


/Robert


-----Original Message-----
<From: Peter-Paul Koch [mailto:gassinaumasis@hotmail.com]=20
Sent: den 25 april 2003 14:52
.To: Robert Nyman; css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
4Subject: Re: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?




F>Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only, which=20
#>browsers are the most common etc?

+My own stats, for what they're worth, say:

Ecxplorer 5    69%
Safari         15%
Mozilla         6%
Netscape 6      4%
Netscape 4      4%
Explorer 4      2%

CNote that these numbers are mainly from my development sites which
attract a=20
7higher share of non-IE browsers than the average site.

KWhichever stats you'll find, please keep in mind that Safari's share is=20
Igoing to rise dramatically when it becomes the default browser for OS X.

IAny Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and=20
Safari.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
4http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/ Column "Keep it Simple":
1http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
=MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.=20
+http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/virus
T13:43:45.389 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [62]
=================
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:14:06 +0000
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>


>Interesting!
H>Especially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
">dramatically increase later on).

AMy Safari stats are especially unreliable because I posted some 
LSafari-related material pretty soon after the beta was released. Naturally 
Hgeeky Safari users first take a look at sites discussing their beloved 
	browser.

LFor the non-geeky sites I keep track of the score is between 2 and 10 % of 
4all Mac users (and I find that 10% strangely high).

K>Have you seen any pattern when it comes to versions of IE, i.e. 5.0, 5.1 

>and 5.2?

Nope.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
>Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 
,http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
T13:43:45.439 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [63]
=================
5From: WBoyett at smtp.co.alachua.fl.us (Will Boyett)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:56:18 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Path Positioning Problem.
1Message-ID: <sea90654.037@smtp.co.alachua.fl.us>

Holly et all;

GFirst off, let me say that I recieved an off-list reply from Jason Van
FPelt which has not only served as the foundation for my correction of
Dthe issue I was having, but has also served to illuminate whole new
Iaspects of CSS which I only dimly understood before... a classic example
Cof a working example being worth volumes of technical explanation.

DThat said, I would be happy to provide a link to the site, and I do
Iwelcome other construcitve commentary. My goal/directive is to provide a
Every accessible site using CSS layout, and favoring a "Red White and
IBlue" palette.  I have inherited a lot of code from previous webmasters,
Eand as the redesign is only one of my job duties, I have not had the
Itime to devote to removing all of the older legacy elements to date. The
Imain page (which does not use the path statement I wrote for help on) is
in my signature.

Chttp://elections.alachua.fl.us/welcome.html is one of the pages in
Hwhich the code can be seen. The "problem code" was the red outlined box
Hwith the path statement and the site map link. It now has new code, and
works as originally intended.


William Dove Boyett
#Alachua County Elections Webmaster
"http://elections.co.alachua.fl.us
8-------------------------------------------------------
!"The user owns the Back button."
4-- Dr. Jakob Nielsen, http://www.useit.com/alertbox

@>>> Holly Bergevin <holnkids@netscape.net> 04/25/03 01:47AM >>>
[snip snip]
DNow I have to apologize, because even with your explanation and the
Hcode you provided, you lost me. Is it possible for you to provide a URL
Hto the page in question so we can give it a look see? If the content is
Frestricted, strip it out and replace it with dummy text. Working with
Ethe actual page generally offers the best opportunity for someone to
provide helpful advice.

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
1http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380 

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
9http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 
G______________________________________________________________________
+css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] 
3http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d 
DSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ 


.Inbound Mail Scanned by Mcafee Web Appliance.




/OutBound Mail Scanned by Mcafee Web Appliance.

T13:43:45.439 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [64]
=================
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:13:00 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741F4@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

EI have the following style, which "works" in all browsers outside of
Netscape 4.76:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
  background-color: #FFE;
  border-top:  1px solid #EEE;
  border-left: 1px solid #EEE;
!  border-bottom: 1px solid #333;
!  border-right:  1px solid #777;
}

DNetscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:

  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;

KRemove them and all's well with the world, include either and it generates
errors and closes.

LAny way around this outside of creating a special style sheet for Netscape?

	Thanks -

george
T13:43:45.439 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [65]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:21:40 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <46.381a3fa4.2bda9e74@aol.com>



LFirst I'd like to say this list has been an excellent resource to me, and I
 think everyone else will agree.


OBut I'd like to point out that lately list posters seem to be blindly posting 
to the
Llist. What I mean is, People might be forgetting that some email providers 
Olike the one I use (AOL) actually interpret HTML tags in email. Which means I 

don't see
Lthem in the context of the message, I see it as if I were reading the post 
through
a browser window.


EWhen you refer to [b] tag I see the rest of the message in bold text
Junless you use the closing [/b] tag. Oh, and try reading a message with a
heading tag in it.


MNow don't get me wrong, I don't mean to chastise the list, but this does get
>annoying. So please accept my apologies if I offended anyone.



Thank You
Curt
>From Michael_Landis at capgroup.com  Fri Apr 25 15:38:57 2003
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:38:57 -0700
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
CMessage-ID: <OFCBF69188.A61F3A48-ON88256D13.004F8FB1@capgroup.com>


George Smyth wrote:

G> I have the following style, which "works" in all browsers outside of
> Netscape 4.76:

> .NavText {
>   font-size: 0.7em;
>   text-align: left;
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;
>   background-color: #FFE;
!>   border-top:  1px solid #EEE;
!>   border-left: 1px solid #EEE;
#>   border-bottom: 1px solid #333;
#>   border-right:  1px solid #777;
> }
>
F> Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
>
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;

INetscape 4 tends to act like the proverbial straw-carrying camel. We all
Gknow it is buggy to one extent or another, but each bug-tripping style
Kdeclaration seems to add a little bit more to its instability. If too many
Kbuggy declarations (that is, valid CSS that causes bugs in NS 4) appear in
Kthe CSS, it will hang, crash, and otherwise let you down when it hits that
final straw.

IIf you don't want to switch stylesheets, you might want to resort to the
HCiao NS4-hiding hack (http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CaioHack) to
Kremove enough styles to let it limp along. You may want to hide additional
;ones, so that you aren't right at the edge of instability.

KAnother alternative is to link a stylesheet that only contains styles that
Lare solid with NS 4, then import a second sheet that adds additional styles
for "good" browsers.

HTH,

MikeL
T13:43:45.439 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [66]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:45:34 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] Hyperlink position in NN4.7
CMessage-ID: <OF642D1E9C.73522B52-ON88256D13.0050CA54@capgroup.com>


Dave Mead wrote:

G> My footer nav runs nicely along the bottom (shortened version here):

[snip]

?> It looks fine in IE but when viewed in NN4.7 the links stack
J> one-on-top-of-another instead of side-by-side!  I've created a separate
H> style sheet for NN and removed the padding from the CSS code and this
H> bunches them all up (hence the two &nbsp; between links).  Is there a
+> way around this or is this the best fix.

GAs you have discovered, adding padding or margins to an inline element
Hconverts it to a block element in NS 4. I haven't seen a workaround for
this.

Sorry for the bad news! :-)

MikeL
T13:43:45.439 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [67]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:44:47 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD7@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

George Smyth wrote:
F> Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
>=20
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;
>=20
@> Remove them and all's well with the world, include either and
"> it generates errors and closes.

HYou can remove "width: auto" safely (unless a width is being inherited)
)and/or you can use Caio's Hack, like so:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
/*/*/
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
/**/
  background-color: #FFE;
  border:  1px solid #EEE;
  border-bottom-color: #333;
  border-right-color: :#777;
}

5(Note: I just shortened your border styles slightly)

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
3From ken at kpmartin.com  Fri Apr 25 16:09:05 2003
'From: ken at kpmartin.com (Ken Martin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:09:05 -0500
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
@Message-ID: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>

FI checked the wiki and didn't see anything, though I suspect this is 
probably frequently asked.

HDoes PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if 
DI need to use it in tandem with other declarations or if it simply 
doesn't work.

TIA

Ken Martin
T13:43:45.439 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [68]
=================
 From: jgay at tla.com (Jim Gay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:17:07 -0400
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
,In-Reply-To: <46.381a3fa4.2bda9e74@aol.com>
)Message-ID: <BACEC9B3.6927%jgay@tla.com>

P> But I'd like to point out that lately list posters seem to be blindly posting
	> to the
M> list. What I mean is, People might be forgetting that some email providers
P> like the one I use (AOL) actually interpret HTML tags in email. Which means I
> don't see
M> them in the context of the message, I see it as if I were reading the post

> through
> a browser window.

HI'm new here, but looking at the policies, although it says no html/rtf
Kemail, I don't think that excludes any html code at all. I think its a bit
Lmuch to ask a list about code of a few hundred people to stop writing about
their code in some context.
Jperhaps the problem is in the AOL client rendering html when it shouldn't
4be? (are you set to receive Plain or MIME content?)

please correct me if I'm wrong
Jperhaps I need more clarity on the policy. should I exclude all html when
I'm next tempted to post?

-jim
T13:43:45.439 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [69]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:30:24 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
7Message-ID: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

MDoes anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can change
the list-item-marker's color?

JI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

Anyone?

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

T13:43:45.439 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [70]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:31:20 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ken Martin wrote:
I> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

B(Apologies if someone has answered this, my email is slow lately)

ANo support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
,<http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
&<http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
>From Dwayne.Conyers at veridian.com  Fri Apr 25 16:41:46 2003
7From: Dwayne.Conyers at veridian.com (Conyers, Dwayne)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:41:46 -0400
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
FMessage-ID: <E4C14A1BFBDD144490EAF53424176D6D11CF46@FCVAMAIL.mrj.com>

HI think enclosing code in <pre></pre> tags should alleviate that issue.

--
Dwacon
www.dwacon.com
<From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 25 16:46:49 2003
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:46:49 +0000
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F69qVDokSUIwMw0000d806@hotmail.com>

H> > Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
> >
> >   width: auto;
> >   padding: 2px;
> >
B> > Remove them and all's well with the world, include either and
$> > it generates errors and closes.
>
I>You can remove "width: auto" safely (unless a width is being inherited)
*>and/or you can use Caio's Hack, like so:

LWhile that is certainly true, my guess is that the border declarations are 
Iactually the problem. NN4 has a long and nasty history of problems with 
	borders.

7Try your original style sheet, but change the borders:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
  background-color: #FFE;
  border: 1px solid #EEE;
  border-bottom-color: #333;
  border-right-color:  #777;
}

GIn a few similar cases I found that using the shorthand notations for 
L'border-left', 'border-right' etc. (though not for 'border' itself) causes 
NN4 problems.

?But maybe I'm wrong and this is an entirely different problem.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
;MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
)http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
T13:43:45.440 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [71]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:47:11 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
,Message-ID: <199.194e6936.2bdab27f@aol.com>

NIn a message dated 4/25/2003 11:17:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, jgay@tla.com 
writes:


5>be? (are you set to receive Plain or MIME content?)


DI only use AOL for a connection to the Internet and to receive mail
Aso I really don't no how to set that, or even if I can with AOL.

 >please correct me if I'm wrong
K>perhaps I need more clarity on the policy. should I exclude all html when
>I'm next tempted to post?

HNo, the tags that effect my mail are heading, bold, italics, typewriter
Ktype, paragraphs, break, and such that refer specifically to font control.

IUL, li, span, div, and others that refer to structure and css don't get 

rendered.
(I see the tag itself, not it's effects.

JBy the way, I didn't type the subject line. My brother did. I don't write
Ksubjects until I ready to send the mail. He tried to replicate the subject
Elines of the css mail program and didnt know it was do automatically
( thought it was funny)

Curt
7From gary at star-chaser.com  Fri Apr 25 17:01:57 2003
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:57 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
AIn-Reply-To: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>
@References: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA95BF5.4040005@star-chaser.com>

Ken Martin wrote:
H> I checked the wiki and didn't see anything, though I suspect this is 
> probably frequently asked.
> 
L> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if I 
L> need to use it in tandem with other declarations or if it simply doesn't 
> work.
> 

HIt only supports position:fixed on backgrounds. You can get it to work 
in two ways.

Javascript
*http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html

conditional comments
"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

HTH
Gary

-- 
Gary Bland
StarChaser Web Architecture
http://www.star-chaser.com
 Building Tomorrow's World Today

The Nemesis Project
http://nemesis1.f2o.org
One Stop CSS
T13:43:45.440 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [72]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:04:44 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
6Message-ID: <556DFCA4.3DC753BE.009CE500@netscape.net>

("Jason Estes" <ckestes@bewb.org> wrote:

P>Does anyone know, I didn't see it in �the CSS spec, if or how you can change
>the list-item-marker's color?

WHi Jason - Did you try setting the color for the unordered list and/or the list items?
ul, li {color: #800080}

/My quick test worked on IE6, Moz and Op7 WinXP

HTH,

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
3From dmead at optiem.com  Fri Apr 25 17:02:56 2003
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:02:56 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E928E@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

FI achieved the effect I think you're after by calling the marker as a
graphic in my CSS file:=20

*   list-style-image: url(images/dot.gif);

Hope this helps.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
,From: Jason Estes [mailto:ckestes@bewb.org]
&Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:30 AM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color


FDoes anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can
change
the list-item-marker's color?

DI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my
text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

Anyone?

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
<From asparber at projectseven.com  Fri Apr 25 17:09:03 2003
0From: asparber at projectseven.com (Al Sparber)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:09:03 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
3Message-ID: <004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL>


Here're a couple more:
Ehttp://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
problematic on Mac)

Bhttp://www.flevooware.nl/dreamweaver/#PersistentLayers (scripted)

Al Sparber
?http://www.projectseven.com - Extensions | DW FAQs | Tutorials
9Co-Author: Dreamweaver MX: Building on Solid Foundations



From: "Saila, Craig"

Ken Martin wrote:
I> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

B(Apologies if someone has answered this, my email is slow lately)

ANo support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
,<http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
&<http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>


T13:43:45.440 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [73]
=================
<From: Jason.Gennaro at jus.gov.on.ca (Gennaro, Jason (JUS))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:09:52 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
DMessage-ID: <419FB3B69D66D311AC120008C79138C0169906BD@JUS00AEX0315>


7On Friday, April 25, 2003 11:30 AM, Jason Estes wrote:

	<sniped>

JI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.


4Add the color to the ul and that should work, i.e.:

ul { color: blue }

,Worked for me in Moz 1.3 and IE 5.5 on W.2K

Jason
	
/From jgay at tla.com  Fri Apr 25 17:16:02 2003
 From: jgay at tla.com (Jim Gay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:16:02 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
8In-Reply-To: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
)Message-ID: <BACED782.692F%jgay@tla.com>

O> Does anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can change
 > the list-item-marker's color?
> 
L> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
;> but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
> 

2http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#lists

Iyou can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
Icorresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image
T13:43:45.440 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [74]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:16:25 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
6Message-ID: <0CC778E0.33459481.009CE500@netscape.net>

%Ken Martin <ken@kpmartin.com> wrote:

$>Does PC IE support position:fixed?

8"Saila, Craig" <Craig.Saila@bgminteractive.com> wrote: 

B>No support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
-><http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
'><http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

�Hi Ken - In addition to Craig's JavaScript suggestions there is a way to emulate position: fixed for IE. It's been called the Bednarz hack or the Ghost hack. See -
"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

HTH,

~holly 

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Fri Apr 25 17:30:11 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:30:11 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
)References: <BACED782.692F%jgay@tla.com>
7Message-ID: <006e01c30b47$f1ed2520$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

K> you can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
K> corresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image
> 

=Technically I guess you could if you did something like this

B<li style="color:red"><span style="color:#000;">sdaf </span></li>

1then you end up with red bullets and black text.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org 

T13:43:45.440 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [75]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:18:54 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
8In-Reply-To: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
7References: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
4Message-ID: <116106318348.20030425111854@attbi.com>

6Jason wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 10:30:24 AM:

G> Does anyone know, I didn't see it in the CSS spec, if or how you can
'> change the list-item-marker's color?

F> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my
A> text, but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

#If you're using generated content:

    li:before{color:#000}

DOtherwise I'd need to check. It may be unspecified, or it may match
Dthe list-item's color. I don't think there's a special way of doing
it, though.

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.440 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [76]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
AIn-Reply-To: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
LMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304250930390.2597-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

*On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Gavin Kistner wrote:

F> Forgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the
>> browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
2> http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

HThe 'default' value is pretty loose, such that actually pretty much all
the renderings are correct.

EHowever, having said that, the intention of the Mozilla guys is that
F'default' use the font's specified default line height, which I don't
Fthink works correctly on Mac (I know it doesn't work exactly right on

Windows).

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
3From cs03 at combonet.se  Fri Apr 25 17:35:51 2003
(From: cs03 at combonet.se (Christina S)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:35:51 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
.Message-ID: <BACF3018.53804%cs03@combonet.se>

JOn 03-04-25 17.31, "Saila, Craig" <Craig.Saila@bgminteractive.com> wrote:

> Ken Martin wrote:
J>> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

C> No support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
.> <http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
(> <http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

 Or with a nice little css-hack:
$<http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/>
Works as a charm.

DI think it is linked somewhere from the css-wiki? (or it should be)
 
/Christina
T13:43:45.440 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [77]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:41:51 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
7In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>
6References: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>
3Message-ID: <p05210607bacf10e7b3c7@[152.3.174.98]>

>>Interesting!
I>>Especially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
#>>dramatically increase later on).
>
B>My Safari stats are especially unreliable because I posted some 
C>Safari-related material pretty soon after the beta was released. 
E>Naturally geeky Safari users first take a look at sites discussing 
>their beloved browser.
>
E>For the non-geeky sites I keep track of the score is between 2 and 
=>10 % of all Mac users (and I find that 10% strangely high).

GI work in academia with folks who are geeky, but not necessarily in a 
Gweb browser sort of way, but who are mostly Mac users.  Among the Mac 
Dpeople, a very large majority use IE 5 - about 72%, at last count. 
DThese are about evenly divided between 5.2+ on OSX and all others. 
>The next highest is NN4, at a scary 9%.  Safari has recently 
@overtaken gecko-based, with some early adopters giving me a 7% 
Dreading, while all geckos (NN6, NN7, all Mozillas and derivatives) 
=are another 6%.  IE4 has just 1%, and all others (including 
Cunidentified) account for the rest.  I have had exactly one Opera 
	visitor.

FAll this is after subtracting my own hits in development and all the 
AWindows people, including the hackers trying to get root.exe or 
Bcmd.exe to do something on my Mac server.  (Which always sort of 
makes me chuckle.)

-- 

-Adam Kuehn
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Fri Apr 25 17:57:25 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:57:25 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
DReferences: <419FB3B69D66D311AC120008C79138C0169906BD@JUS00AEX0315>
7Message-ID: <008c01c30b4b$bfe56340$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
;> but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
>
>
6> Add the color to the ul and that should work, i.e.:
>
> ul { color: blue }
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> Supported by evolt

KThanks for all the response, I got it from Holly first so I'll credit her,
/but really it was just my own stupid overlook.

KAnd to respond to this last one, technically the only reason that works is
Kcause the [li] inherits the color, but you can control the li individually
by adding the color to the li


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
1.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

T13:43:45.440 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [78]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:55:11 -0700
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
CMessage-ID: <OF2A66C6B4.16E163EC-ON88256D13.005C9BE6@capgroup.com>


Jim Gay wrote:

> Jason Estes wrote:
>
F> > Does anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you
-> > can change the list-item-marker's color?
> >
E> > I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of
F> > my text, but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
> >
>
4> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#lists
>
K> you can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
K> corresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image

JHate to say it, but it sounds like the easiest (albeit messier) way to do
Jit is to span/div content inside of the li tags to override the colors...

MikeL
T13:43:45.440 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [79]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:24:28 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <ae.3e6bab30.2bdac94c@aol.com>

@In a message dated 4/25/2003 1:23:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
$Dwayne.Conyers@veridian.com writes:


> 
> 
8> I think enclosing code in tags should alleviate that 
	> issue.
> 
> --
	> Dwacon
> www.dwacon.com
> 
T13:43:45.440 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [80]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:13:51 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
A	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304250930390.2597-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
2Message-ID: <009e01c30b56$6caf59f0$6401a8c0@yoda>

,> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Gavin Kistner wrote:
>
H> > Forgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the
@> > browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
4> > http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

OAs you've learned, the default line-height is determined by the UA with the W3
Irecommendation that it be between a factor of 1 to 1.2 of the font-size.

HTo override the default UA treatment, you can simply set your preferred
Pline-height in the ICB of the document and let the cascade naturally adjust. Be
Laware though, that you should set line-heights as a factor rather than in a
specific unit. For example,

html, body {
Kfont-size: 16px /*I'm not promoting fixed sizes, just making an example.*/
line-height: 18px;
}

Nwill be problematic when your long unstylyed <h1> wraps - effectively doing a
Qfont-size of about 2x the default (32px) but cascading the 18px line-height. The
Bwrapped lines are going to overlap. However, if you use a factor,

html, body {
Kfont-size: 16px /*I'm not promoting fixed sizes, just making an example.*/
line-height: 1.2;
}

Kthe line-height will cascade appropriately for in each descendent element.

"So, if on your test page, you use

.col1 p {line-height:1;}
.col2 p {line-height:1.1;}
.col3 p {line-height:1.2;}

,you'll find much better x-browser behavior.

Lonnie
T13:43:45.441 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [81]
=================
3From: marc.richards at verizon.net (Marc Richards)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:53:44 -0400
@Subject: [css-d] Mozilla isn't pulling css pages from the cache
MIn-Reply-To: <20030403112504.PVKS1042.mta018.verizon.net@acornparenting.org>
4Message-ID: <000201c30b5b$ff8658f0$0100000a@diablo>

Hi,

@I have been doing some testing recently that involved careful =
examination of
Imy http headers. I have noticed that Mozilla ALWAYS gets a fresh copy of
Eexternal CSS pages (both imported and linked) when navigating thru =
various
Fweb pages (zeldman.com, centricle.com, my own internal site).  This =
	seems to
Hgo against one of the major benefits of CSS (less bandwidth).  I tested
Iusing Internet Explorer 6 and it caches the pages just fine. Has any one
Delse noticed this?  I am using Mozilla 1.3 on windows XP with the =
default
cache settings.

Marc=20

T13:43:45.441 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [82]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:28:00 -0500
Subject: [css-d] 
G Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?)
7In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
6References: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA98C40.3000802@cookiecrook.com>

Peter-Paul Koch wrote:
> 
I> Any Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and 

> Safari.

HSpeaking of which, the meetup.com website styles dreadfully in Safari, 
Hso it kind of throws an ironic wrench at the web standards meetup idea 
,doesn't it? http://webstandards.meetup.com/

GAlso, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is 
Dcancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so 
Iprematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas and 
Gstill want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll 
Jarrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may be 
 interested in an Austin meetup.

Cheers,
James Craig

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
T13:43:45.441 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [83]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:17:57 -0500
FSubject: [css-d]  Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats for
	browsers on Mac?)
6References: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
$	<3EA98C40.3000802@cookiecrook.com>
7Message-ID: <00e301c30b67$c3454660$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

> 
I> Also, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is 
F> cancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so 
K> prematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas and 
I> still want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll 
L> arrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may be 
"> interested in an Austin meetup.
> 

> Cheers,
> James Craig


LAt least you have people in Austin signed up for the webstandards.meetup.  

8I am the only person in Fort Worth signed up for it. :(

	OH well!


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org 

T13:43:45.441 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [84]
=================
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:31:57 -0400
'Subject: [css-d]  Web Standards Meetup
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A28FECC@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

BI came across this on Mr Craig's web site and decided to join the
8Cleveland one only to see the next day it cancelled :-(

6Maybe the web developers one will be better attended.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
,From: Jason Estes [mailto:ckestes@bewb.org]
%Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:18 PM
To: James Craig; 'CSS-discuss'
ESubject: Re: [css-d] Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats
forbrowsers on Mac?)


>=20
K> Also, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is=20
H> cancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so=20
F> prematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas
and=20
K> still want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll=20
H> arrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may
be=20
"> interested in an Austin meetup.
>=20

> Cheers,
> James Craig


5At least you have people in Austin signed up for the
webstandards.meetup. =20

8I am the only person in Fort Worth signed up for it. :(

	OH well!


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org=20


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
4From daniel at ionize.net  Fri Apr 25 22:06:01 2003
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:06:01 -0500
0Subject: [css-d] Help w/ IE Mac disappearing ID
>Message-ID: <B8088CA6-7761-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

Hi,

FI have been busy on a project that is almost done, but I find myself 
+deeply in need of some expertise and help.

HI'm trying to finish up a site now at: http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/

One issue remains, however:

HIn IE4, (and IE5) on the Mac (OS 9), I'm getting reports that the logo 
Iin the top left is not appearing. Unfortunately, I don't have access to 
Gan OS 9 box to test. (I tried installing it, but my monitor-- yes, my 
Gmonitor-- prevented me from doing so). In my copy of IE5 Mac on OS X, 
it renders correctly.

ICan someone w/ IE 4 or IE 5 running under OS 9 confirm that the logo is 
=not appearing? Does anyone know why this would be happening?

6The xhtml/css validates, but it *is* a tabled design.


The goods:

6default style sheet (setting #logo to display: none):
4http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/default.css
E	- I *did* try removing the link to this stylesheet and the problem 
	persists
.global style sheet that sets styles for #logo
3http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/global.css
H	- This stylesheet is linked to using imports in the second stylesheet 
Flinked (import.css). I know that the IEs in question are getting the 
Gglobal stylesheet, however, because other styles from it are rendered 
correctly.

thanks,
-daniel
T13:43:45.441 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [85]
=================
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:21:42 -0500
0Subject: [css-d] Help w/ IE Mac disappearing ID
?In-Reply-To: <B8088CA6-7761-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>
>Message-ID: <E9393B98-7763-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

!Sorry, I left out the directory:

> The goods:
>
6> http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/default.css

<http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/_library/styles/default.css

5> http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/global.css

;http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/_library/styles/global.css
T13:43:45.447 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [86]
=================
0From: valleyofmalls at yahoo.com (David Norris)
,Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:31:36 -0700 (PDT)
7Subject: [css-d] image float right issues in IE5.5 win
AMessage-ID: <20030425213136.54351.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>

�I have sliced up an image and floated it right inside a table using the method here http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/raggedfloat/demo.html I'm using the style code as follows on my slices:img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 0 0 0;} (I have enough white space on the sliced images that I don't need to add any margin for the text wrap) Looks fine it seems everywhere except IE5.5 windows, not sure about mac. In IE 5.5 there's some space between the images and the right edge of the table so it won't meet up with the edge. But if I add some negative px or em to the right margin it looks fine in IE 5.5, the image goes flush to the edge. example: img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -3px 0 0;} img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -1em 0 0;}  Is there an IE 5.5 hack or something for this?  


"---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
fThe New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.From holnkids at netscape.net  Fri Apr 25 23:26:08 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:26:08 -0400
7Subject: [css-d] image float right issues in IE5.5 win
6Message-ID: <0DC0F06E.2A589CC0.009CE500@netscape.net>

.David Norris <valleyofmalls@yahoo.com> wrote:

�>I have sliced up an image and floated it right inside a table using the method here http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/raggedfloat/demo.html I'm using the style code as follows on my slices:img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 0 0 0;} (I have enough white space on the sliced images that I don't need to add any margin for the text wrap) Looks fine it seems everywhere except IE5.5 windows, not sure about mac. In IE 5.5 there's some space between the images and the right edge of the table so it won't meet up with the edge. But if I add some negative px or em to the right margin it looks fine in IE 5.5, the image goes flush to the edge. example: img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -3px 0 0;} img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -1em 0 0;} �Is there an IE 5.5 hack or something for this? 

�Hi David - If you know it is only IE5.5 (and not IE6 also) that is doing this, you can use the Tan hack [1] to feed the negative right margin to IE5.5 which would look like this -

img.slices {
    float: right; 
    clear: right; 
8    margin: 0; /* Margin settings for most browsers */ 
    }

B* html img.slices { /*Only IE browsers see this (including Mac)*/
2    margin-right: -3px; /* Set value for IE5.5 */
<    ma\rgin-right: 0; /* Reset value for IE6 and IE5-Mac */
    }

�Otherwise (if IE6 needs the negative margin as well), try setting the "incorrect" value in the regular selector and use the child selector to reset it for the other browsers -

img.slices {
    float: right; 
    clear: right; 
    margin: 0 -3px 0 0; 
    }

)html>body img.slices {margin-right: 0; }

HTH,

~holly

[1] See: "A Modified SBMH" -
7     http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BoxModelHack

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
9From fortuneb at bellsouth.net  Fri Apr 25 23:38:11 2003
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:38:11 -0400
Subject: [css-d] site check
AReferences: <002101c30a3e$21449a20$97a4d742@charterpipeline.net>
*	<009e01c30a40$9dec4e40$73163d0a@sdig.fr>
6Message-ID: <00a801c30b7b$5a454d40$6001a8c0@felwithe>

Bnot diggin the techno on the home page. cool music, but annoying.


> ----- Original Message -----
%> From: "Ian Adams" <icadams@pe.net>
>
L> I am updating the code for my site to a standards compliant xhtml/css and
M> cannot get the style to view in Netscape 7.  The syle views fine in IE and
J> the site validates every way I can think of to test it.  The address is
> http://www.microtech.com
>
>
T13:43:45.448 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [87]
=================
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:40:10 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
6Message-ID: <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>

2can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
4From gleemax at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 23:49:00 2003
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:49:00 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7In-Reply-To: <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
References: 
J <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+ <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
4Message-ID: <151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>

6Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:

4> can you have more then one media="all" on a page?

BYes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
>media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,

G<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" media="all">
E<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">

-- 
John Lewis
T13:43:45.448 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [88]
=================
,From: epersonae at mail.com (Elaine Nelson)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:03:30 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] site check - esp. on Mac?
1Message-ID: <20030425230331.9939.qmail@mail.com>

(http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/test/pioneer/
*(links don't work, this is only a mockup)

�I've checked it on Moz 1.2.1, IE 6, Netscape 4.something and Opera 6 (all win2K), and am reasonably satisfied with the results. It's been validated all round, and passed. :)  

�Minimal style is fed to old browsers, with additional stuff for the more modern crowd.  I decided to go for the XML prolog to force IE6 into non-strict mode so I could keep using body>#whatever selectors rather than some other hack...I don't know if this causes problems elsewhere....

MA check from Mac users would be especially helpful!  Thanks for your time...

Elaine Nelson
 work: http://www.pierce.ctc.edu
"notWork: http://www.epersonae.com

-- 
;__________________________________________________________
:Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
T13:43:45.448 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [89]
=================
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:10:17 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] site check - esp. on Mac?
2In-Reply-To: <20030425230331.9939.qmail@mail.com>
>Message-ID: <1474BED5-7773-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

HOn Friday, Apr 25, 2003, at 18:03 America/Chicago, Elaine Nelson wrote:

*> http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/test/pioneer/
,> (links don't work, this is only a mockup)


Looking Good Mac Side:

[OS X]

Moz
IE 5.2
Safari
T13:43:45.448 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [90]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:56:20 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
6Message-ID: <46F927D0.13623D7A.009CE500@netscape.net>

css-discuss@plumlee.org wrote:

)>At 01:00 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>
,> >>If I try to place an image in the right
O> >>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6. �IE
9> >>refuses to display the content in that third column.

$>http://wgi.org/2003/indexmac2.php 

`Hi Scott - I played around some more with your example and found a few more interesting things.

�It seems putting a top border on the div.column-three-content will kill the problem without using the float, as long as the image is wrapped inside something else. You could put it in another div, or a paragraph, either one seemed to work. 

�What I did was give the div.column-three-content a {border-top: 1px solid #6666ff;} which is the same color as the background of the column. I then gave each of the other div.column-xxx-content a top border the same color as their backgrounds, and 1px high to balance things between the columns. This works great in the example you provided.

�Unfortunately, what you will find if you put content in the middle div is that the image gets pushed below the bottom of the content level of the middle div, though it still does display. 

�Another thing I tried which IE6 is okay with but Moz and Op aren't is to give the image a margin property that looks like img {margin: 0 -3px;} IE6 happily centers the image and displays it, too. Unfortunately, Moz and Op drag the thing to the left 3px. You can use a child selector to reset the margin value for the other browsers - html>body img {margin: 0;}

�I'm afraid this is going to be a case of pick your hack. The float one isn't that bad, especially if the image is going to take up the entire width of that right side div and since you said it isn't causing problems for Moz and Op7.  

�So after all this, my suggestion is to go with the float. It seems the easiest way to deal with the various problems that are encountered. Be aware that if you need to put content in the right div *before* the image, the image will disappear again, even with the float. This time it's hiding behind the background, so add [img] to the selector that has the {p\osition: relative;} property. If you don't want a background on the right div, you won't need the pos:rel.

+In brief, my suggestion looks like this - 

.box-wrap, .columns-float, 
.column-one, .column-two, 
.h2, .column-three, img {p\osition: relative;}

img { float: left;}

K>I appreciate the advice.  I think I might have a "immovable object meets 
?>the irresistible force" complex about this problem right now.

�I'm not sure which one of those is you and which is IE6, but I do agree this is a frustrating problem, and one that is going to require the application of a(nother) hack to solve. 

+Not sure I was much help this time, sorry,

~holly


C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
7From ehmer at pacific.net.au  Sat Apr 26 06:00:43 2003
5From: ehmer at pacific.net.au (David & Angela Ehmer)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:00:43 +1000
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem
3Message-ID: <005301c30bb0$cca941e0$5bf88fcb@ehmer>

HI have developed a horizontal menu system which works okay except that;

GExtra space appears below the horizontal menu, both when the dropdowns
Jappear and when they don't.  Not sure where this is coming from or how to
Ieliminate it. Think it may be related to the cumulative space the 3 drop
Kdowns take up.  Also the menus appear a bit touchy and disappear sometimes
3when they shouldn't (probably Javascript problem!)

MNote, I have used relative positioning as I want the page to be centred on a
$screen with resolution of 1024x768.

%Appreciate any suggestions.  See URL

,http://www.netnoise.com.au/acpchn/index.php

David
T13:43:45.448 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [91]
=================
1From: mark.r.stevens at attbi.com (markinoregon)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:20:19 -0700
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem
4In-Reply-To: <005301c30bb0$cca941e0$5bf88fcb@ehmer>
DMessage-ID: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAGEGICAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>


AYeah, the menu's are touchy here on XP/IE6 Broadband connection,
Ealso i noticed your australian map, on the right side of the header,
#is a few pixels off from the text.
-----Original Message-----
*From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org
H[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org]On Behalf Of David & Angela
Ehmer
&Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 10:01 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem


HI have developed a horizontal menu system which works okay except that;

GExtra space appears below the horizontal menu, both when the dropdowns
Jappear and when they don't.  Not sure where this is coming from or how to
Ieliminate it. Think it may be related to the cumulative space the 3 drop
Kdowns take up.  Also the menus appear a bit touchy and disappear sometimes
3when they shouldn't (probably Javascript problem!)

MNote, I have used relative positioning as I want the page to be centred on a
$screen with resolution of 1024x768.

%Appreciate any suggestions.  See URL

,http://www.netnoise.com.au/acpchn/index.php

David

G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
T13:43:45.448 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [92]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:51:53 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C2348@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

H> I work in academia with folks who are geeky, but not necessarily in a
H> web browser sort of way, but who are mostly Mac users.  Among the Mac
E> people, a very large majority use IE 5 - about 72%, at last count.
E> These are about evenly divided between 5.2+ on OSX and all others.
?> The next highest is NN4, at a scary 9%.  Safari has recently
A> overtaken gecko-based, with some early adopters giving me a 7%
E> reading, while all geckos (NN6, NN7, all Mozillas and derivatives)
>> are another 6%.  IE4 has just 1%, and all others (including
F> unidentified) account for the rest.  I have had exactly one Opera =
	visitor.

=20
Thanks Adam,
=20
*I find this very interesting information!
&And yes, 9% with NS4 is really scary!
=20
=20
/Robert
=20
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Sat Apr 26 12:48:09 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:48:09 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <1051268977.6929@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051357689.16411@tweek.sebduggan.com>



<>> I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
C>> whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
<>> the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:
> 
O> Very nice Steve - this seems to be the most elegant solution so far - and it
4> seems to work in every browser I've thrown it at!
> 
*> I'll be changing my own code to this...

Final word on this...

GI tested my page on a friend's Linux box, on Konqueror. Unfortunately,
LKonqueror currently only supports white-space:pre for PRE and XMP elements.
LHowever, even the earlier beta of Safari handles it correctly, so it should
1find its way in to the KHTML source fairly soon.

F(Also, it wasn't a disastrous mis-rendering - and Konqueror users are
6probably a very small minority of my site's traffic).


Seb

T13:43:45.448 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [93]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:24:43 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] Quick thank you
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426112216.00ba3028@cbiweb.com>

MJust wanted to say thanks to those who gave me suggestions the other day on 
Imaking lists with mixed styles. I haven't been able to try them out yet 
Lbecause I got distracted with another project. But I will let you know how 
$it works out when I get back to it.

Thanks!

Joel
T13:43:45.448 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [94]
=================
=From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rick_Hurst?=)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:21:10 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
EMessage-ID: <mailman.163.1051374077.541.css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>

Nfor some reason this layout is missing the left border when displayed in IE5=
N mac=2E The odd thing is that the space has been left for the border, but no=
> colour is showing=2E Any ideas why, or how I might fix it=3F

7http://www=2Ehypothecate=2Eco=2Euk/css=5Ftest/v8=2Ehtm


T13:43:45.448 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [95]
=================
.From: steven at sjknet.com (Steven Kallstrom)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:47:17 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
2Message-ID: <000e01c30c13$829c7730$6401a8c0@MAIN>

CSS Experts,

:	I am working on a layout where I have a large graphic as
Fbackground, and menu.  I don't want to reload that since it is static
Dthroughout, so I decided to just make it so that I would reload the
content area.

%http://12.221.231.252/test/test.html

F1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
HCSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
Hto do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
4in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?

F2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
Iusing an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the content inside
Hthe div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
Ffile...  I wish they had something like <div src="page"> sort of like
Aiframes, but you are simply change what is inbetween the divs...

what do you think?

Thanks a ton,

Steven J. Kallstrom

T13:43:45.448 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [96]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:50:21 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>

KIf this has been asked recently, I apologize for the repeat. Feel free to 
%direct me to the thread if you like.

JI've been doing some testing with ems and %'s. I like the versatility of 
Iboth, but which is better in today's browser compatibility climate? I'm 
Hconcerned mostly about consistent results while avoiding the tiny text 
Lsyndrome that can occur on a Mac. (I don't have a Mac, so all my design is 
PC oriented.)

LMy main goal is to design with less-than-default-size text, but still give 
0users the ability to change it if they want to.

TIA,

Joel
T13:43:45.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [97]
=================
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:55:04 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+	<00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
)	<151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>
6Message-ID: <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>

#can you have more then one import?


----- Original Message ----- 
'From: "John Lewis" <gleemax@attbi.com>
"To: <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
%Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 6:49 PM
-Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import


8> Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:
> 
6> > can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
> 
D> Yes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
@> media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,
> 
I> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" media="all">
G> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">
> 
> -- 
> John Lewis
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
;From matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com  Sat Apr 26 19:52:00 2003
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:52:00 +0100
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
7Message-ID: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>

'http://blogstreetjournal.com/index.php

MWorks fine in all win browsers I've been able to download, no Mac, and Linux
Ktill I get a spare day, so if any one with either of these platforms could
'check it for me, I'd be most grateful.

Matt

-- 

Khttp://unitedheroes.net/blogs/matt/ - usually updated, occasionally funny,
sometimes even informative!
T13:43:45.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [98]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:28 +0100
1Subject: FW:RE:  [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7Message-ID: <000d01c30c25$6ac11d70$0100007f@localhost>

Not sent to the list.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:48 PM
To: 'Brandy (mediadiva)'
-Subject: RE: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import


I don't think so . . .

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
<}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of 
}Brandy (mediadiva)
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 6:55 PM
-}To: John Lewis; css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
.}Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
}
}
$}can you have more then one import?
}
}
}----- Original Message ----- 
(}From: "John Lewis" <gleemax@attbi.com>
#}To: <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
&}Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 6:49 PM
.}Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
}
}
9}> Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:
}> 
7}> > can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
}> 
E}> Yes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
A}> media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,
}> 
>}> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" 
}media="all">
H}> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">
}> 
}> -- 
}> John Lewis
}> 
}> 
H}______________________________________________________________________
-}> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
5}> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
F}> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

T13:43:45.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [99]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:57 +0100
%Subject: FW: [css-d] ems or percent?
7Message-ID: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>

Damn outlook.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:45 PM
To: 'Joel Young'
%Subject: RE: [css-d] ems or percent?


Joel,

HThe way I've found to use these (and avoid the broken box model as much
;as possible) it to decale the follwing in you style sheet:

body {
	font-size: 100%;
}

P (or your divs or whatever) {
	font-size: 0.8em;
	line-height: 1.166667em;
}

DThis give you the equivalent of 12px font sizing, and a 17.5px line
height.

CThe body { font-size: 100%; } should avoid it inheriting, as would
Eexplicitly declaring all tags you use with { font-size:0.8em; } This
Fworks in every windows browser that I've been able to find a download
?for, though I don't own to a mac, so I don't know about those.

"For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.

Matt

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
F}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Joel Young
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 6:50 PM
!}To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
"}Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
}
}
?}If this has been asked recently, I apologize for the repeat. 
}Feel free to 
&}direct me to the thread if you like.
}
<}I've been doing some testing with ems and %'s. I like the 
}versatility of 
=}both, but which is better in today's browser compatibility 
}climate? I'm 
I}concerned mostly about consistent results while avoiding the tiny text 
@}syndrome that can occur on a Mac. (I don't have a Mac, so all 
}my design is 
}PC oriented.)
}
>}My main goal is to design with less-than-default-size text, 
}but still give 
1}users the ability to change it if they want to.
}
}TIA,
}
}Joel
}
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

U13:43:45.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [100]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:54:58 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7In-Reply-To: <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>
References: 
J <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+ <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
) <151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>
+ <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>
4Message-ID: <148201738897.20030426135458@attbi.com>

9Brandy wrote on Saturday, April 26, 2003 at 12:55:04 PM:

%> can you have more then one import?

CYes, with the caveat that all @import rules must appear before all
(other rules. For example, this is okay:

    @import "main.css";
    @import "print.css" print;
    h1{font-size:3em}

DAlso, keep in mind that an imported style sheet without a specified
Fmedia, like the first rule in the above example, has an implied media

of "all".

-- 
John Lewis
U13:43:45.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [101]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:42 +0100
,Subject: FW: [css-d] inline frame border...
7Message-ID: <000e01c30c25$6fead4d0$0100007f@localhost>

And again.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:47 PM
To: 'Steven Kallstrom'
,Subject: RE: [css-d] inline frame border...


EBest of my knowledge, only framesets (urgh) or iframes will give you
Dthis action. Don't know how to remove the IE iframe border with CSS
though.

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
<}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of 
}Steven Kallstrom
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 5:47 PM
}To: 'CSS List'
)}Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
}
}
}CSS Experts,
}
;}	I am working on a layout where I have a large graphic as
G}background, and menu.  I don't want to reload that since it is static
E}throughout, so I decided to just make it so that I would reload the
}content area.
}
&}http://12.221.231.252/test/test.html
}
G}1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
I}CSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
I}to do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
5}in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?
}
G}2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
<}using an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the 
}content inside
I}the div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
G}file...  I wish they had something like <div src="page"> sort of like
B}iframes, but you are simply change what is inbetween the divs...
}
}what do you think?
}
}Thanks a ton,
}
}Steven J. Kallstrom
}
}
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

U13:43:45.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [102]
=================
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:02:49 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
2References: <000e01c30c13$829c7730$6401a8c0@MAIN>
8Message-ID: <005701c30c26$6e5d1370$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

H| 1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
J| CSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
J| to do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
6| in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?

BNot that I know of. This has been a complaint since IE3. In fact,
>IFRAMEs in IE have other default attributes that override any
2CSS property, sometimes with nasty consequences. 


H| 2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
K| using an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the content inside
J| the div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
| file... 


@No again. You may want to experiment using the OBJECT tag. For 
0instance, this works in IE5/Win and Netscape 7:

B<object data="another.htm" type="text/html" id="yourID"></object>

ENote that the object tag must be given an explicit height and width,
Deither as attributes or thru the CSS. Note also that here again, IE
insists on a border.

Brett


U13:43:45.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [103]
=================
RFrom: info at brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk (Brighton Freelance Web Design)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:21:56 +0100
2Subject: [css-d] How to center an image using CSS
WMessage-ID: <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>


Hi there,

8I'm trying to center the image at the top of this page.

Ahttp://www.brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk/szoo/template.htm

using the following code.

.logo {
	width: 333px;
	margin-right: auto;
	margin-left: auto;
	margin-bottom: 55px;
	text-align: center;
}

*It works on IE5.5 Mac but not on IE6 Win.

BAny ideas how I can get it to center on the most common browsers?

Andy
U13:43:45.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [104]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:23:50 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
7References: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
"Message-ID: <3EAADCC6.C4A@ij.net>

Matthew Davey wrote:
 
J> The way I've found to use these (and avoid the broken box model as much
=> as possible) it to decale the follwing in you style sheet:
 
	> body {
>         font-size: 100%;
> }
 
!> P (or your divs or whatever) {
>         font-size: 0.8em;
#>         line-height: 1.166667em;
> }
 
3> This give you the equivalent of 12px font sizing

G.8em gives a little over a half size character box on a system that is
Iusing the windoze common default of 12pt/16px@96DPI. (144 dot box vs 256
dot box; 56.25%).
 
$> For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.

FFor what reference? 15px=1em if and only if the default size is 15px,
Gwhich is not the default case for any browser as a virgin installation
Gon any virgin PC OS. Netscape 4, IE6 & Mozilla/Netscape 6+ all default
Eto 16px/12pt. Windoze defaults to 96DPI. For IE6 you can see the few
;instances where 15px would be the default in the charts at
;http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [105]
=================
(From: knaepkens.luc at pandora.be (Luc)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:28:28 +0200
%Subject: FW: [css-d] ems or percent?
8In-Reply-To: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
7References: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
4Message-ID: <12423476367.20030426212828@pandora.be>

Good evening Matthew,  
    

AIt was foretold that on 26-4-2003 @ 19:55:57 GMT+0100 (which was
320:55:57 where I live) Matthew Davey would mumble:

<snipped a bit>

&MD> For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.
  
GMatthew,  how  do  you  get  that value of 15px? In your example there
/aren't  any  px set, only 100% (body) and ems.

GI  thought  that  the  'em'  unit  equals  the  computed  value of the
G'font-size'  property  of the element on which it is used, except when
Git  occurs  in  the  value of the 'font-size' property itself. In that
7case it refers to the font size of the parent element.

;Or am i missing something fundamental here? (probably yes)
 
Best regards,
 Luc

---------------------------------------------
APowered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build
E2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera.

G"Men were made for war. Without it they wandered greyly about, getting
Dunder the feet of the women, who were trying to organize the really
0important things of life." - Alice Thomas Ellis
---------------------------------------------











U13:43:45.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [106]
=================
'From: david at lenef.com (David Lenef)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:44:00 -0500
,Subject: [css-d] Disappearing Div on Mac IE
;Message-ID: <NFBBKJNGEDABMFKHCIFEAECKEAAA.david@lenef.com>

!http://Lenef.com/elite/prodtest/
:(Don't bother clicking the button - it doesn't work yet.)

KPlease refer to the above page on which I'm testing a product page layout.
KOn NetMechanic's Browser Photo, the right-hand content div does not appear
Kin Mac IE 5.0 screenshots, and most of it is way off the right edge of the
viewport on Mac IE 4.5.

EIt's supposed to be a 2-column layout with photos down the left side
I(float:left) and text specs on the right (margin-left used to create the
Kright column effect and stay out of the way of the photos). Style sheet is
Lembedded in the page. Any ideas what I need to do to accommodate Mac users?

FIt will eventually be dropped into a container div on the final page.

K(BTW, Mac users represent a miniscule portion of this site's audience, but
Hif one arrives at the page, they need to at least see the information.)

David Lenef
david@lenef.com
http://Lenef.com

U13:43:45.449 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [107]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:48:17 -0400
2Subject: [css-d] How to center an image using CSS
XIn-Reply-To: <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>
References: 
L <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>
6Message-ID: <63-1549435046.20030426154817@mrclay.org>

6Saturday, April 26, 2003, 3:21:56 PM, Brighton wrote:
>BFWD> I'm trying to center the image at the top of this page.
GBFWD> http://www.brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk/szoo/template.htm

ADrop the width and l/r margins on .logo.  It will expand to 100%
Dnaturally and text-align will do its job.  You can also use IDs for
/elements that only appear once in a document..

<div id="logo">
D   <img src="images/logos/home_logo.jpg" width="333" height="96" />
</div>

#logo {
    margin-bottom: 55px;
    text-align: center;
}

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
U13:43:45.450 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [108]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>

Joel,
FI've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font 
7size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...

body {  font-size: 76%; }

LThen, for different sections (divs) I set the font size to ems. Examples...

#middle { font-size: 1em; }
#left { font:-size: .9em }

?I also set the font size by ems for other elements. Example...

h1 { font-size: 2em; }

CThis allows the fonts to resize in ems in relation to the first % 
Fdeclaration. Whether it works for you, or not I don't  know. You may 
Jwant to try it and experiment changing % and em sizes and see if you can 
tweek it to your needs.
--
Tony
U13:43:45.450 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [109]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:06:28 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
G> I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
9> size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>
> body {  font-size: 76%; }

Why?

EI, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
Apage's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
1From mrmazda at ij.net  Sat Apr 26 21:18:34 2003
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:18:34 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>

Ian Hickson wrote:
 
*> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:

I> > I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
;> > size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
 
> Why?
 
G> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

HShhhhh! You, of all people, should know better. For people like you and
Gme, this is how we want inconsiderate web designers to make their text
Atiny. When they use 'body {font-size: 76%;}', it allows our user
Hstylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100% !important;}' to put it back how
Ait belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in body and shrink everything
Eelsewhere, our simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing
something?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.450 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [110]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:26:05 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
 <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>

Ian,
IUntimately almost anyone can set their font size as a user, even if the 
Epage is built to display at pixels. The designer sets the size they 
Ithink is best. After that, its out of their hands and the viewer can do 
Cas they wish. I picked up the method I suggest from Owen Briggs...

Ahttp://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html

JIt made sense to me, so I went with it. He gives some good reasons as to 
why he uses % and ems.

GAs usual, the wiki for this list points to some excellent resources...

.http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FontSize
--
Tony

Ian Hickson wrote:

)>On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>  
>
G>>I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
9>>size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>>
>>body {  font-size: 76%; }
>>    
>>
>
>Why?
>
F>I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
B>page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
>  
>
U13:43:45.450 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [111]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261322140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:
> > >
 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }
> >
I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
2> Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better.

Hehe.


D> For people like you and me, this is how we want inconsiderate web
E> designers to make their text tiny. When they use 'body {font-size:
D> 76%;}', it allows our user stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100%
I> !important;}' to put it back how it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in
I> body and shrink everything elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule
&> can't work. Am I missing something?

II used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
to use it.

It doesn't work.

JThe problem is that many people write pages that are sized in pixels, and
Hwhen you override their setting on body, you end up making entire pages
unreadable.

FI guess it's better for authors to make their pages unreadable in one
Kplace (the body rule above) rather than all over though, as you point out.
KI just wish I understood why people are so obsessed with making their text
tiny.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
/From ian at hixie.ch  Sat Apr 26 21:32:19 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261328180.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
K> It made sense to me, so I went with it. He gives some good reasons as to
> why he uses % and ems.

JOh I wasn't disagreeing with using %s and ems -- indeed I have written my
own comments on the matter:

1    http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1045789943&count=1

II'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
use better than me. :-)

#*crawls back into his ivory tower*

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
=From joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca  Sat Apr 26 21:51:21 2003
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:51:21 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

?Well, the replies to my message are certainly interesting. ;-)

JI'm not entirely new to CSS, but I am new to sizing fonts with something 
Mother than pixels (yes I decided to give control back to the user). The use 
Gof ems vs % almost seems to be a personal preference, so I guess that 
doesn't really matter.

MSo if I use body {font-size: 100%}, then the rest of the page will be sized 
Lin relation to that (i.e. 80% of 100, 75% of 100), right? Or will there be 
;some inheritance along the way under certain cirumstances?

?And does this apply to ems as well? Or do ems act differently?


MThat's a lot of questions for just one answer, eh?  -- If there is only one 
answer :-)




(At 05:18 PM 4/26/03, Felix Miata wrote:
>Ian Hickson wrote:
>
,> > On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
K> > > I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
=> > > size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>
 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
	> > Why?
>
I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
I>Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better. For people like you and
H>me, this is how we want inconsiderate web designers to make their text
B>tiny. When they use 'body {font-size: 76%;}', it allows our user
I>stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100% !important;}' to put it back how
B>it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in body and shrink everything
F>elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing
>something?
>--
?>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
?>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur
>
(>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
>
@>Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
>
H>______________________________________________________________________
+>css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3>http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D>Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
U13:43:45.450 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [112]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:57:22 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261322140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAAF2B2.7C90@ij.net>

Ian Hickson wrote:
 
*> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:

"> > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }

K> > > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
G> > > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

4> > Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better.
 
> Hehe.
 
F> > For people like you and me, this is how we want inconsiderate web
G> > designers to make their text tiny. When they use 'body {font-size:
F> > 76%;}', it allows our user stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100%
K> > !important;}' to put it back how it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in
K> > body and shrink everything elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule
(> > can't work. Am I missing something?
 
K> I used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
> to use it.
 
> It doesn't work.

Better than nothing.
 
L> The problem is that many people write pages that are sized in pixels, and
J> when you override their setting on body, you end up making entire pages
> unreadable.

GWell, body 100% doesn't impact elements sized in px. :-( But, only for
Fthe time it takes to use zoom, pending a fix someday maybe (users can
Eall hope, can't we?) for bug 4821, or even implementation of Jakob's
*suggestion "Improving Future Browsers" at
-http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20020819.html.

H> I guess it's better for authors to make their pages unreadable in one
M> place (the body rule above) rather than all over though, as you point out.

Shhhhh!

M> I just wish I understood why people are so obsessed with making their text
> tiny.

FAt URL below I've collected some reasons. Maybe you can add some I've
missed?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

FFelix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/defaultsize.html
U13:43:45.450 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [113]
=================
)From: sarah at weed.org.nz (Sarah Wedde)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:02:01 +1200
,Subject: [css-d] Disappearing Div on Mac IE
<In-Reply-To: <NFBBKJNGEDABMFKHCIFEAECKEAAA.david@lenef.com>
.Message-ID: <BAD14D09.8875%sarah@weed.org.nz>

David,

KI think you  need to set an explicit width on the left-hand div (div.photo
H{margin-bottom: 2em; width: 300px;}) in order to get Mac/IE5 to behave.

Sarah


;On 4/27/03 7:44 AM, "David Lenef" <david@lenef.com> wrote:

#> http://Lenef.com/elite/prodtest/

M> On NetMechanic's Browser Photo, the right-hand content div does not appear
M> in Mac IE 5.0 screenshots, and most of it is way off the right edge of the
> viewport on Mac IE 4.5.
 
G> It's supposed to be a 2-column layout with photos down the left side
K> (float:left) and text specs on the right (margin-left used to create the
M> right column effect and stay out of the way of the photos). Style sheet is
N> embedded in the page. Any ideas what I need to do to accommodate Mac users?
 
> David Lenef
U13:43:45.450 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [114]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:11:58 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261359140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

'On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Joel Young wrote:
>
A> And does this apply to ems as well? Or do ems act differently?

JOn the font-size property, 'em' and '%' mean exactly the same. (Well, 1em
Kis equivalent to 100%, so they mean the same thing given a factor of 100.)
JBoth of them refer to a value relative to the parent element's font-size.

IOn other properties, '%' refer to other measures, for example percentage
Gmargins refer to the width of the containing block. On the other hand,
4'em' units always refer to the element's font-size.

For example, given:

   h1 { font-size: 2em; }
   p { text-indent: 1em; }
$   blockquote { font-size: 0.5em; }

	...then:

-  <body>              User's font size (1em)
:   <h1> ... </h1>     Twice user's font size (2em of 1em)
4   <p> ... </p>       User's font size (1em of 1em)
   <blockquote>
=    <h1> ... </h1>    User's font size (2em of 0.5em of 1em)
B    <p> ... </p>      Half user's font size (1em of 0.5em of 1em)
   </blockquote>

  </body>

HTH,
-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
8From kr43m0r at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 26 22:16:26 2003
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:16:26 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
J	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
2Message-ID: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
> Why?
>
G> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

PWhy? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the OS. This
&is often in conflict with the design.

NWhat is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser, 76% is a
JVERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
,comfortable with reading text at that size.

PIf you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser to something
Qcomfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer to mimic the size of your
Emenu text by adjusting the default browser font size with a % value.

QGood for you if you've changed the default browser text size to fit your viewing
Kpleasure. By setting the default size to a percentage of the default, that
Qdesigner has opened the door for you to tweak it to suit your preference. Had he
6specified pixels, you on IE would have little choice.

Q>From my point of view, if you find MOST of the sites you visit too difficult to
Nview, then you'd be advised to seek an alternative UA if your user preference
yields no improvement.

Can you read a typical book?

PI'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs. I did 100% at
Qone point and got an equal amount of suggestions from users to reduce or enlarge
)the default size as I do now. Go figure?

Lonnie
U13:43:45.454 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [115]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:26:02 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
p	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
2Message-ID: <002101c30c3a$706aa6a0$6401a8c0@yoda>

Felix,

NAccording to your calculations, I'm glad it is impossible for me to ever even
meet you half-way!

Lonnie
U13:43:45.454 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [116]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:31:46 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261328180.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
5Message-ID: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>

7on 4/26/03 4:32 PM, Ian Hickson at ian@hixie.ch wrote:

K> I'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
> use better than me. :-)
> 
%> *crawls back into his ivory tower*

KAnd while you're up there see if you can get the W3C to drop font settings
Gfrom CSS3 - or perhaps just drop fixed-size units all together - cause
Kthat's the only way we'll never see this topic again. (and while you're at
Mit can we get some relative color units? Like "dark, darker, light, lighter"
Lor maybe that would screw with users who change their color settings to the
Dinverse of what authors expect... So maybe some way to reference an
3"opposite" color would be needed... Hehe... Sorry)

MAs an author I find a base px size with relative units off of that (as a few
Mothers have referred to in this thread) is sometimes the only sane way to do
Jthings - especially when so many other items on a page are based on pixel
Imeasurements. It just doesn't make sense not to give a default in pix to
Jmaintain the balance of a layout for the vast majority of users who don't
Mtouch their prefs. I also am generally pretty liberal with my choice of font
9sizes - using what is some circles would consider "big".

FYes using all relative units (or just not touching anything) would be
Jpreferred, but because there's such a wide gap between the many who don't
Lknow about their prefs, the few who do and take care to adjust accordingly,
Gand the clients that are paying the bills its sometimes not practical.

KAs a surfer I sometimes wish my browser(s) of choice were smarter in these
Iareas and could do things like remember text zoom settings, or alternate
Kstyle sheet choices across a site and across multiple sessions, similar to
Jhow remembers image blocking or cookies choices. I also am quick to set a
Mminimum font size of 9 or 10px when I install a browser which causes some of
Jits own problems (e.g. may hide some implied document structure, or cause
=overflow issues) but alleviates many of the worst offenders.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:45.454 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [117]
=================
1From: svendtofte at svendtofte.com (Svend Tofte)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:42:31 +0200
%Subject: SV: [css-d] ems or percent?
EMessage-ID: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEENOCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>

<> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge.
> X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

IJust wanted to point out, that menu text, and "reading" text, is not the
Ksame, and is not read in the same way. I would be veary of comparing maybe
Hten small words, at the top of a window, with a page full of text, it's
Itotally different sizes here. Microsoft Word has a default size of 12pt.

Just a comment :)

Svend
U13:43:45.454 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [118]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:15:04 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
6In-Reply-To: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:
> > >
F> > > When they use 100% in body and shrink everything elsewhere, our
G> > > simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing something?
> >
M> > I used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
 > > to use it. It doesn't work.
>
> Better than nothing.

KNot really. All it does is change one set of unreadable pages for another.
;As you point out, what is really needed is full page zoom.


#On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Lonnie wrote:
>
P> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

Interesting.

LSo basically I should set my font size to 130% of what I would want to see?

GUnfortunately this makes sites that do honour my settings way too big.


F> I'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs. I
D> did 100% at one point and got an equal amount of suggestions from
F> users to reduce or enlarge the default size as I do now. Go figure?

GIf you got the same number of complaints when doing the right thing as
Gwhen doing the wrong thing, I would suggest doing the right thing. :-)


+On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Chris Casciano wrote:
9> on 4/26/03 4:32 PM, Ian Hickson at ian@hixie.ch wrote:
>
M> > I'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
> > use better than me. :-)
> >
'> > *crawls back into his ivory tower*
>
M> And while you're up there see if you can get the W3C to drop font settings
I> from CSS3 - or perhaps just drop fixed-size units all together - cause
8> that's the only way we'll never see this topic again.

DDropping absolute units has been considered several times, but as a
Awhole the working group feels that they do have valid use cases.


E> (and while you're at it can we get some relative color units? Like
F> "dark, darker, light, lighter" or maybe that would screw with users
A> who change their color settings to the inverse of what authors
E> expect... So maybe some way to reference an "opposite" color would
> be needed... Hehe... Sorry)

EThis is also being considered, although I hear there are issues with
?how to define it. I recommend checking the www-style archives.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
2From tbounds at gci.net  Sat Apr 26 23:40:48 2003
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:40:48 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>

Ian,
GWhat do you think of the designer being so bold as to not honor other 
user settings? For instance...

EFont Type: Setting preferred font types. As with setting font size, 
Hdoing such requires the user to go out of their way to apply what they 
may prefer.

IContent Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in 
?effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.

DLink Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a 
designers preference. 
--
Tony
U13:43:45.454 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [119]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:42:09 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
UReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
'	<001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
#Message-ID: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>

Lonnie wrote:

> Ian Hickson wrote:

> > Tony Bounds wrote:

 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }

	> > Why?

I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
 
R> Why? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the OS. This
(> is often in conflict with the design.
 
<> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge.

GActually it is a terrible gauge propagated by Owen Biggs, who has also
:shared such other gems as "the browser defaults are huge"
G<http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html> and
D"most browsers default to a text size that I have to back up to the
kitchen to read"
I<http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/font/index.html>.
EIt is apparent that Owen's eyes are not your average UA user's eyes,
Hbeing akin to those of an eagle, able to see the tiniest things at huge
Ddistances. It is wholly unfair to assume most UA users have similar
	ability.

> X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

IIt's an awful and not even comparable estimate. Bogus, bogus, bogus. Can
Eread and comfortable read are entirely different things. If the menu
Atext is 76% of a comfortably set default page text, it is merely
Elegible, not comfortable. Simply legible is good enough for familiar
Hthings like system controls. They get used frequently, but only briefly
Ieach time. With each use, they become more familiar, eventually reaching
Ithe point where experienced users wish they were smaller still, in order
Fto provide more space to the viewport, or to allow the use of smaller
Iwindows, so that more of other windows could be seen simultaneously. The
Gfamiliarity all but dispenses with any need to read at all, with mouse
Ievents targeted to remembered screen locations rather than words read. A
Gshort squint at small controls here & there is far more tolerable than
Gfull time squint required to read page text as small as controls text.

R> If you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser to something
S> comfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer to mimic the size of your
G> menu text by adjusting the default browser font size with a % value.

ENo it isn't, and you don't know what size my menu text is anyway. In
Gwindoze for example, controls text size varies according to DPI, which
Ialso you don't know. The eagle-eyed may very well find that the default,
Fdesigned for low resolution displays, works perfectly fine even after
Hdoubling the screen resolution from the low common values of 640 or 800
Gwide. Others, like me, and many others no longer under 40, welcome the
Iability to increase controls size, whether or not increasing resolution,
7taking away the need to squint to use system controls.

GFWIW, the IE6/Mozilla defaults of 16px/12pt are close enough for me to
Icall just right, when I'm using 1024 wide resolution, and a 19" monitor.
CWhen I drop the resolution back to 800 wide, 13px becomes slightly
Ftaller than 16px is on 1024 wide, while 12px becomes slightly shorter
D<http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/pixelsize2.html>, & I change my
default from 16 to 13.

%Now, compare to Ian Hixie's settings
E<http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1045789943&count=1>. Twice 12.5px is 25px
D(prefs options include 24 & 26, but not 25). Twice 800 wide is 1600
Fwide. The only significant difference in conversion is his display is
Bsmaller, but then he's probably not even half my age (50+), still
Eblessed with decent if not good eyesight. From what I've seen of his
Dmusings on the subject of font sizes, I hesitate to assume his near
vision is excellent.
 
> Can you read a typical book?

DThere is no such thing as a typical book. My bible is a large print
Fedition. Many paperbacks use smaller text than newspapers. Newspapers
Hare a strain, so I get most of my news off TV, or the internet, where I
Ghave a UA that allows me to override the common arrogant page designer
Iassumption that UA designers are ignorant morons who make the PC default
12pt/16px without good reason.
 
C> I'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs

CI'd like to visit some of these. As long as I've been reading your
Hadvocations of designer knows best I can't recall one instance of a URL
pointing to any of your work.

> I did 100% at
S> one point and got an equal amount of suggestions from users to reduce or enlarge
+> the default size as I do now. Go figure?

8You place more value upon the clueless than the clued. 

ADo you design sites using IE6 using the system defaults, with no
Eadjustment to the defaults, such as adjusting the browser default to
Gyour liking before starting a design? One of these days section 508 is
liable to catch up with you.

GIt's certainly a good thing for users of sites made by people like you
?that UA zoom and !important in user stylesheets are available.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.454 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [120]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:59:51 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
5Message-ID: <BAD087A7.53B97%chris@placenamehere.com>

9on 4/26/03 6:42 PM, Felix Miata at mrmazda@ij.net wrote:

> 
9> You place more value upon the clueless than the clued.

Yes.

MAnd until browsers come with install wizards that walk through configuration
 I don't see that changing much.

M... If you know how to set up your browser of choice for desktop for optimal
Gviewing I will try my damnedest to not screw you over (e.g. 0.5-0.7ems
Iothers referenced) But I have a lot more confidence that you know how to
Kdeal with what I as an author throw your way, then I have for Joe Internet
User.

:*takes this moment to consider the absence of a list mom*

LI know you'll never be satisfied with that answer Felix so I'm not going to
Hbother continuing down this road. I urge others on both sides to do the
same.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:45.454 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [121]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
 <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261548211.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
H> What do you think of the designer being so bold as to not honor other
!> user settings? For instance...
>
F> Font Type: Setting preferred font types. As with setting font size,
I> doing such requires the user to go out of their way to apply what they
> may prefer.

IOverriding font-family is easy at the user stylesheet level, so I'm fine
*with authors choosing their own typeface.


J> Content Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in
A> effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.

HI say good luck to them. My user agent gives me the ability to override
window resizing, etc. :-)


E> Link Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a
> designers preference.

KLike with font-family, colours are easy to override, so I'm fine with that
Htoo. In general, and this applies to font-family too, different colours
Ddon't make a page more or less readable for me, like font sizes do.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
7From cdwise at wiserways.com  Sun Apr 27 00:04:28 2003
/From: cdwise at wiserways.com (Cheryl D. Wise)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:04:28 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
AMessage-ID: <003f01c30c48$30858060$1901a8c0@local.wiserways.com>

IYou may think on your monitor that 76% of the default setting is a "good
Hestimate" but I can't read 76% of the default on my laptop period, with
or without reading glasses.

GWhile I applaud using % instead of fixed px (or even worse pt) sizes I
Iget very tired of having to adjust fonts up to read them. Funny enough I
Hcan only think of one site that I even considered adjusting a font down
Hto a smaller size and it was a site on accessibility that seemed to use
an extra large size font.

EPersonally I'd rather a design be 'broken' than a site's contents be

unusable.

Cheryl D. Wise
WiserWays, LLC
www.wiserways.com
Office: 713.353.0139
Mobile: 713.412.0406
cdwise@wiserways.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Lonnie

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
> Why?
>
H> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the 
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

GWhy? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the
/OS. This is often in conflict with the design.
U13:43:45.454 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [122]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:12:47 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
#Message-ID: <3EAB126F.7A2D@ij.net>

Tony Bounds wrote:

E> Link Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a
> designers preference.

BEventually, the power for users to override using css will become
)commonly exercised. e.g., this I do now:

?:link:hover[target="_blank"],:visited:hover[target="_blank"] {
7  color: white !important; background: red !important;
}
;:link:hover[target="_new"],:visited:hover[target="_new"] {
7  color: white !important; background: red !important;
}

-http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.454 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [123]
=================
)From: simon at jessey.net (Simon Jessey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:33:20 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
o	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
	<3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
:Message-ID: <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>

----- Original Message ----- 
%From: "Felix Miata" <mrmazda@ij.net>
%Subject: Re: [css-d] ems or percent?


> If the menu
C> text is 76% of a comfortably set default page text, it is merely
G> legible, not comfortable. Simply legible is good enough for familiar
> things like system controls.


MI have to agree with that. I have a 21 inch monitor attached to a Windows XP
Iplatform set to 1280 x 1024. I use this setting because I want plenty of
Jscreen real estate, but the menus (in their default setting) are a little
too small for my liking.

JI make web documents using relative units, with the only exceptions being
Gthe odd bit of padding, border width or letter spacing. In the case of
Mfonts, I almost always set a size of 100% in the BODY and then have 0.8em as
Gmy smallest child size. Users have the option of making it quite a bit
Msmaller or larger if they desire. I like to make a font as large as possible
&without it being ugly or impractical.

FThis new trend for microfonts is peculiar. I can only assume that the
Ltypical designer has a gigantic monitor, or perhaps projects their computer
Himage on a wall. One site that particularly annoys me is Kaliber10000 (
Ihttp://www.k10k.net/ ). Let me quote from one of my own weblog entries:-

I'The design is absolutely incredible, but the small font size being used
Dmeans that glyphs are dwarfed by medium-sized subatomic particles.'

MAnd resizing the text isn't always the answer, assuming it is even possible.
MMaking the text bigger on the Kaliber10000 site reveals the structure of the
?typeface, causing it to appear blocky and '80s computer-like'.

ENo. I am a firm believer in using CSS relative units and leaving the
Ldecision up to the user. It is our job as web designers to conceive layouts
Lthat don't break when text is resized. The fixed width site is a dinosaur -
power to the user!

Simon Jessey

w: http://jessey.net/blog/
e: simon@jessey.net


U13:43:45.455 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [124]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:02:27 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
References: 
J <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
' <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
3Message-ID: <61220190472.20030426190227@attbi.com>

8Lonnie wrote on Saturday, April 26, 2003 at 4:16:26 PM:

D>> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting
?>> the page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems
>> strange.

E> Why? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than
5> the OS. This is often in conflict with the design.

GThat may be a good reason to send a nasty letter to browser makers. On
Ethe other hand, most browsers let the user choose their own default,
Gso it's not at all clear what you'd ask them to do. I'd argue that any
:size has a great chance of conflicting with most designs.

DI can already choose a good default size. My problem isn't with the
Fbrowser, it's with authors who assume I'm ignorant and lazy. They try
Cto "help" me because, after all, they're designers, so surely they
#know what I want better than I do.

G> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser,
D> 76% is a VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you
?> should be fairly comfortable with reading text at that size.

E76% of my preferred font-size = smaller than my preferred menu size,
Dand much smaller than my preferred font-size. What you're saying is
Ftrue if and only if the user hasn't changed their menu text size, the
Euser hasn't changed their browser text size, OS text scaling is off,
Eand they're using a common platform like Windows and IE on a monitor
Gof "normal" size. That's an assumption you can't make with confidence.
FOh, and of course then they need to have near perfect vision as well.

DNor are the two related; I set the menu size in my OS and I set the
Fdefault text size in my browser. Even if you can change the menu size
Edirectly in your browser, I doubt it also rescales your default text
Asize. Further, the two serve different purposes. I want my menus
Gtaking up as little space as possible while still being highly legible
C(where legible means "read easily"). I want web pages to be highly
Greadable (where readable means "read easily at length"). The two serve
Dradically different purposes. As such, my menus are set to a pretty
>small sans-serif and my user style sheet uses a larger serif.

@I don't mind if you override my font-family, even if you choose
Fsomething lame like Times New Roman. I may be annoyed, I may disagree
Ewith you, but at least the text is almost as readable as before. But
Fwhen you cut the size by a quarter, text suddenly becomes much harder
Cto read no matter what my preferred typeface is, and odds are your
@style sheet will be disabled after about two seconds (Ctrl+G by
Adefault in Opera). If your page is designed well, maybe I'll try
Ezooming first instead. Maybe I'll simply leave and go read something
Belse. One thing is certain: There's no way I'll sit there and try
reading tiny text.

E> If you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser
F> to something comfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer
G> to mimic the size of your menu text by adjusting the default browser
> font size with a % value.

DThat doesn't make any sense. The only way it would make sense is if
Gyou know the size of one or both, and you only have access to the size
Gof one (and even then you don't know the specified or actual size). As
Aa web page designer, it's impossible to mimic the size of a menu
Dwithout making assumptions about user settings. The two just aren't
"related unless by happy accident.

EAs mentioned above, nor does it mean the text will be readable, even
"if you could mimic the menu text.

F> Good for you if you've changed the default browser text size to fit
E> your viewing pleasure. By setting the default size to a percentage
E> of the default, that designer has opened the door for you to tweak
G> it to suit your preference. Had he specified pixels, you on IE would
> have little choice.

DI use Opera, and I'm not the only one. Even more people use Mozilla
@and Safari. Where do people get the idea that everyone uses IE?

> Can you read a typical book?

'Yes. That doesn't seem related to CSS.

-- 
John Lewis
U13:43:45.455 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [125]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 01:20:46 +0100
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
�	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda><3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
/	<002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
2Message-ID: <007d01c30c52$d918f950$fd00a8c0@mike>

MI feel somewhat humble at asking a small question in the midst of CSS gurus,
Lwith wide polarity of view (no pun intended), indulging in an excellent and
Kimportant debate. With my business consulting hat on, a simple question...
Gespecially given the cogent example of http://www.k10k.net/, someone's
Gexcellently designed window to the world but so difficult on the eyes.

MOn the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
Iyour opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
Gsettings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
users, most of the time?

Mike
Edinburgh, Scotland
U13:43:45.455 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [126]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:38:50 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <007d01c30c52$d918f950$fd00a8c0@mike>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
 <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
' <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
 <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
/ <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426213121.00bcd8b0@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

!At 09:20 PM 4/26/03, Mike wrote:
><snip>
N>On the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
J>your opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
H>settings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
>users, most of the time?
>
>Mike
>Edinburgh, Scotland



LYes! This is what my original question was about, and I'm glad you brought 
Lit back around, Mike. Hopefully someone will have an answer for us. In the 
Kmeantime, let's see if I understand a few things.  Someone please tell me 
<if I'm even close to knowing what I'm talking about.... :-)

===============
Scenario 1:
AAssume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}

?This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
#of the browser's default. Yes? No?
===============
Scenario 2:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 1em}

AAll text on the page will still be 80% of the browser's default,
=because basically 1em = 100%, and I'm only setting it to 20%
$less (which is 80%).  Right? Wrong?
===============
Scenario 3:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 0.9em}

:Okay, NOW the text will actually be just under 80% of the
:browser default, because it is 9/10ths of 80% of default.
===============
Scenario 4:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 100%}

=Again, the text remains at only 80% of default, because I've
Cset it to be 100% of the body font size (not that I would do that,
it's just for example)
===============
One more... Scenario 5:
body {font-size: 100%}
0.classname {font-size: 1em} or {font-size: 80%}

FHere, the text will either be the full browser default, or 80% of it.
Right?
===============


HIf all the above are correct, then it's just as easy to set the body at
D100% all the time, and simply use smaller percentages for different
sizes.
BThat, or do body {font-size: 100%}, and use various em sizes, and
Ceverything should work out - keeping the sizes within a reasonable
range, of course.

8Did I reach home base, or am I somewhere in left field?


Joel
U13:43:45.455 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [127]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:57:04 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
zReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
F	<3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net> <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
#Message-ID: <3EAB2AE0.7C85@ij.net>

Simon Jessey wrote:
 
H> This new trend for microfonts is peculiar. I can only assume that the
N> typical designer has a gigantic monitor, or perhaps projects their computer
J> image on a wall. One site that particularly annoys me is Kaliber10000 (
K> http://www.k10k.net/ ). Let me quote from one of my own weblog entries:-
 
K> 'The design is absolutely incredible, but the small font size being used
F> means that glyphs are dwarfed by medium-sized subatomic particles.'

HZoom to only 150% in Mozilla trunk, and right in the middle text spills
out of its containing image
Fhttp://www.k10k.net/images/frontpage/features_wspecials.gif. The site
1also depends on image substitutes for text. e.g.
8http://www.k10k.net/images/backs/front_issuematrix.gif 
@And, if you think it's tough now, try it at 1600 wide or higher
Hresolution. Hard to figure if the purpose of that site is anything more
)than to show off someone's css-d skills.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.455 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [128]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:06:58 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
6In-Reply-To: <BAD087A7.53B97%chris@placenamehere.com>
7Message-ID: <001601c30c59$4d8f5e90$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

> Chris Casciano :
>
;> on 4/26/03 6:42 PM, Felix Miata at mrmazda@ij.net wrote:
> >
;> > You place more value upon the clueless than the clued.
 
> Yes.

DEmphatically agree with Chris. While I hesitate to even chime in on
@this, since it seems more than played out and there seems to be
Hunwillingness to budge on both sides of the issue, I would just like to
Iadd, while this is obviously a *philosophical* difference, if left to my
Hown devices I would design for the clueless EVERY time, since they make
3up the vast majority of users that spend the cash.

DExample: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/us-tricks/  

I.. While it's an older article, so much of it is still true to this day.
HSpend some time watching **REAL** users... Not only do many of them not
Gknow what the Stop and Refresh button do, but I have NEVER seen ONE of
Four non-technical test users change their font size.  Ever. I've even
Dasked some to do so specifically and was greeted with the astounded
%reply of "you mean I can do that??".

II can't remember if this specific tale of woe is referenced in the above
Garticle, or one that it links to, but I have actually, personally seen
Eone user complain that he couldn't hit a link in question because he
E"ran out of desk".  This was a bio-chemist whose brain must weigh at
Dleast 5 times what mine does, and  who had been using computers for
Gquite a few years, who didn't realize he could actually pick the mouse
Iup off the desk and reposition it without effecting the cursor position.
HDo you think HE knows how to change his font size?  He doesn't, however
Ihe estimates that a full 60%-70% of his non-essential purchases are made
Eon-line!!!  THIS is the guy I gotta design for??!!?!  Yes.  And when
Bpresented with larger than life, default windows IE text size, he
Hdetests the excessive scrolling he has to go through, and uses the back
Fbutton instead.  I heard him before hitting his back once mutter, "do
 these people think I'm blind?".

GMy dear old mother, who still to this day double-clicks links AND form
Hbuttons on web sites despite all her kids and grandkids telling her not
Gto, can't set the font size on her browser, even though she's actually
Gbeen shown how to a few times, and even had the font-size button added
Cto her IE toolbar for her. She can use three things.. A web site's
Gpresented navigation, her back button, and her "x" button in the upper
Dright hand corner.  BUT, she Googles with the best of 'em, and is a
FHEAVY internet shopper, even finding full-adult size "footie" pajamas
Efor my wife and I (which ain't an easy task, but much appreciated in
INorthern Maine!).  From what I can discern, what she likes to see on web
Hsites is 12 pixel Arial, and will probably never learn how to apply her
Ipersonal preference at the browser level.. But will shop ecommerce sites
F'till the day she dies.  For her, the back button is just easier than
Gbothering with all the "stupid buttons" on the browser (her words, not
mine).

ESo, yeah, I'm totally with Chris.  I don't place more 'value' on the
Hclueless than the "clued"... But the "clued" can figure it out on their
Eown if they want to. The clueless, who spend the same money that the
G"clued" people do, and make up a greater number of users, would prefer
Gthe back button over actually learning how to use their tools.  Bottom
Fline is: my job ain't to convince them to use their tools, never mind
Ateach them HOW, my job is to sell them crap, or convince them of
something.  

DIt just depends on what you do for a living and who your target is.
BProgrammers and Designers are in no way reflective of the average
3internet user, though many of them think they are.

CThe usual disclaimers apply... Just my $0.02, IMHO, YMMV, etc.. :)

--Josh

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=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:30:01 +0930
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
(In-Reply-To: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
/Message-ID: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>

Tony Bounds wrote:
> ...
> 
K> Content Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in 
A> effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.
> 
> ...

AI've already been thru a flame war on this on another list, but 
-css-d attracts a more sensible crowd, so ...

BI'm not sure if this is what you meant, but, one of my pet hates 
@is sites which spread their text across the whole width of the 
?window. This particularly applies to "minimal" sites where no 
>use is made of CSS at all, but I've seen it in lots of other 
sites too.

BNow, lots of studies have been done on this, and the evidence is 
@not entirely equivocal, but a concensus seems to be that lines 
8of text should not exceed a certain length for optimum 
@readability. Therefore, it is arguably best to limit the width 
>of blocks of text to, say, 33em. (I've played with this, and 
B30em seemed too narrow, 35em too wide -- to my eyes.) Certainly, 
:this corresponds more or less to what you'll find in any 
Bbookstore. If print publishing represents 500 years of trial and 
>error, then we can feel at least a little confident that the 
@present-day format for books represents a pretty good standard 
:for readability. (Also black text on a white background, 
9although that may also be influenced by printing costs.)

1So there is an argument for using something like

"	div.text { max-width:33em; ... }

?to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of 
the user's screen.

>But many seem to find any kind of limitations placed on user 
Apreference abhorrent, so I'm prepared to hear negative feedback 
on this suggestion.

.A compromise I've adopted at my ebooks site, 
&http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/
6is to open each ebook in a new window which is sized 
Bappropriately*, and leave the user free to resize the new window 
6if they wish. But I'm still tempted to use max-width.

?[* Javascript only lets you specify window size in pixels, so 
/this is only going to be approximate at best.]

	Regards,
Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
U13:43:45.455 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [130]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 05:22:54 -0500
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
? <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net> <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
4Message-ID: <181257423383.20030427052254@attbi.com>

6Steve wrote on Sunday, April 27, 2003 at 12:00:01 AM:

?> But many seem to find any kind of limitations placed on user
E> preference abhorrent, so I'm prepared to hear negative feedback on
> this suggestion.

FOn the contrary, I think they'd be inclined to agree with you. I know
FI do! I'll now start rambling on about CSS; feel free to stop reading
here if you're busy.

EUsing min-width in conjunction with max-width is usually superior to
Dsizing something with a basic em width. The difference is basically
Fthat between a range (e.g., 16em to 32em) and a single number (24em).
?I think we can all agree that a range is almost always better.

FWe don't have anything like min-width and max-width for font-size. If
Dwe did, keeping with the same spirit of min-width and max-width, it
Gwould probably be way too complicated (for author use) anyway. You can
Eeither take monitor, resolution, preferred text size, window height,
Gand window width into account, or you can let it be useless. Including
Fonly some of the above basically cuts its usefulness so much that you
Bmight as well use font-size, and including it all (or most of it)
?makes it so complicated that it would never be implemented, or
Eprobably even specified. Users have their own set of problems. Let's
Gsay it's specified for users instead, with no auto sizing for authors.
-You have two main options for min-font-size:

+    1. Specify a minimum legible font-size
,    2. Specify a minimum readable font-size

CThe problem is, on a well designed page (1em body text and smaller
Bnavigation text) specifying a minimum readable font-size is quite
Cimperfect. Sure, text will be your minimum readable font-size--but
Gthat means that stuff you would prefer small (i.e., legible instead of
Areadable, like menus and legal text) will be too big. On a badly
Ddesigned page (smaller body text and much smaller navigation text),
Athe opposite happens. If you specify the min-font-size to be the
Eminimum legible size, to erase the possibility of illegible text but
Gnot erase the possibility that text will be unreadable, the navigation
Dtext, which was previously illegible, is now legible. The body text
Ewas already legible, so it didn't change in size! It's still just as
>unreadable, because "readable" and "legible" are two entirely
Cdifferent concepts. Which means your two options above really are:

A    1. Screw up small text at well designed sites, but fix badly
)       designed sites as well as you can
E    2. Don't fix badly designed sites, but leave well designed sites
       alone.

@The same applies to max-font-size to a lesser degree, but since
Gmax-font-size isn't quite as important as min-font-size (max-font-size
Eis like min-width, and min-font-size is like max-width, for those of
Byou confused but familiar with those properties--although I think
Fmin-width is relatively more useful than max-font-size, so it's not a
fair comparison).

?Setting a sane column width doesn't have as great an effect on
Ereadability as decreasing a font-size from an optimum size, which is
Dby definition unsafe. It's hard to think of a user style sheet that
?would cause problems if a page sensibly overrode max-width and
Dmin-width values, unless the need was vital (in which case the user
Gwould have already overriden, rendering the problem moot--keep in mind
GI'm only talking about advanced users, since we can assume no one else
Dwould use min-width or max-width or even have a user style sheet at
all).

CIn the case of neophyte users, setting a sane column width doesn't
Chave as adverse an effect on readability as decreasing a font-size
Ffrom an unknown size, because no matter the em value the column width
Cwill make sense (even if it's unreadable, or produces a horizontal
Escrollbar, it will still make sense if you're the page author--which
=is all you can know, since you don't control the user or his
Acomputer), because you have knowledge of the entire author style
Csheet, there is no user style sheet by definition, and even if you
Dsniff for a browser and assume a default font size it may have been
Echanged by accident or by a different user or by OS settings. On the
Fother hand, decreasing an unknown font-size can lead to illegible and
Dunreadable fonts (e.g., if you're decreasing a font-size already on
-the threshold of legibility or readability).

DIn reality, setting a max-width is like setting a line-height. It's
Brelated to the font-size, and it affects readability greatly, but
?they're both based on the font-size in CSS. You can change the
Eline-height, margin, padding, width, and so on that are based on ems
Gwith wild abandon. Even changing colors affects readability (so try to
Eavoid fuschia on magenta, if it's no big deal). You can use them all
Fresponsibly or irresponsibly. The fundamental difference in font-size
B(compared to ems in other properties, in this example) is that by
Dchanging it you affect a great deal. When you change the font-size,
Fmargins and padding in ems are also decreased, the actual line-height
Dis usually decreased, and the width or height of a box sized in ems
<decreases. That's a much bigger deal than changing most CSS
properties.

ENot all ems are created equal. A value of .5em applied to a width is
Galways .5em, no matter the actual font-size. Since you know .5em = 1/2
Bthe current font-size, that's valuable even if you don't know the
Eactual font-size. Setting em on width doesn't change the value; it's
Dconsistent. On the other hand, a value of .5em applied to font-size
Dchanges the meaning of an em. From now on, .5em of that font-size =
C1/4 of the 1em and 1/2 of the current .5em, unless you're changing
Efont-size again, in which case you modify the value for that element
Band its descendants as well. You've now lost basically all of the
Fusefulness of em. You can still calculate values of em, and fractions
Band so on (like I did above), but it won't help you design a page
Gwell, since you don't know the actual value. Much of the reason 1em is
Gso valuable is that it's 1em, not ".9em to 1.3em". That's why assuming
F1em is more valuable than assuming everyone's browser default is 16px
Gexcept that group, whose default is 14px, etc. The absolute values are
Finherently less useful. In a perfect world, you'd know all the values
Gand style according. You'd also know the users favorite colors and pet
peeves.

=You need to know the actual value of 1em to change the value
Dsignificantly with confidence, if you want to know you're improving
Ethe user experience. I define significantly as above 6.25%, but it's
Esort of arbitrary. Sort of. You could practically change it by 18.5%
Cor so without causing major harm in most cases, but you're sure to
Fhave an impact that's felt, and there is the very real possibility of
Aunreadable text. So, 93.75%? Hardly a big deal. I might not even
Dnotice, and even if I do I'm not likely to be hurt terribly. On the
Cother hand, I'll notice and probably curse 81.5% (depending on the
Ctypeface, leading, column width, and my mood). If you were against
Gchanging font-size for body text generally, because you realized there
Gare bad things about doing so, you could still change it to 93.75% (or
?so) and very few people would have cause to complain. Changing
=non-body text to about 81.5% is about as safe. You could get
Bcomplaints from veteran users, and it could cause something to be
<illegible, but very few people will have cause to complain.

FOf course, all that's sort of useless, because my 1em is not Alison's
G1em, or Sarah's 1em, or Aaron's 1em. It may be, but it isn't, and more
Eimportantly it can change, from day to day and even more frequently.
DFor example, my preferred font-size changed no less than four times
Gyesterday. I wasn't doing much of anything strange--I think it changes
at least twice a day.

EEven if a user has a max-width set on body, overriding that value is
Eless harmful than changing a font-size on body. Indeed, if max-width
?on body could cause a problem with your page, you'd do well to
Boverride it preemptively. I think it would be more harmful to not
Econsider the effect of max-width than to consider the effect and act
2accordingly. It would be hard to argue otherwise.

/> A compromise I've adopted at my ebooks site,
G> http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/ is to open each ebook in a new
C> window which is sized appropriately*, and leave the user free to
C> resize the new window if they wish. But I'm still tempted to use
> max-width.

BI say go for it! We need more intelligent uses of CSS on the web,
Gespecially of relatively rare properties. Anything to stop JS windows,
FI say. Of course, Win IE didn't support max-width last I checked, and
5it's funny how most of the web uses Win IE. Oh well.


GI thought about some guidelines for text sizing in CSS. At first I was
?going to list my own guidelines (in fact, I wrote up the email
Fyesterday, but I didn't send it), but I think it would be more useful
Fto list "guidelines for designers." I already know what I'm doing and
Gwhat I like. If someone is likely to agree with me, I think they could
Ejust as easily come up with similar guidelines. I might as well list
.some things people may actually find helpful.

; 1. Size everything relative to body (or the root element)

G    Sizing everything relative to body gives you just as much control,
F    and it lets a user easily override the "main" setting on body and
A    have your page text resize accordingly, both larger and even
F    smaller. Use math if you want exact values. For instance, instead
D    of 14px body text and 28px headings, use 14px body text and 2em
    headings.

  2. Use safe line-height values

@    There's hardly ever a need to specify dangerous line-height
B    values. If you want to maintain an exact value from a certain
A    size, use a little math. For example, 14px/19px would become
B    14px/1.357 (and so on, if you'd like). It's most important to
E    avoid 1em/19px or similar, because 1em could be much larger than
5    19px, in which case the text would be illegible.

$ 3. Take text resizing into account

E    There's a reason pixel-width layouts suck. If there's no room to
E    breath, increased text size values lead to tiny columns of text.
A    In an ideal world, you'd use min-width and max-width to size
F    columns. The reality is there's no good solution today other than
B    avoiding bad situations. That doesn't mean you should neglect
F    min-width and max-width, it just means you shouldn't rely on them
E    working. Keep it in your "complex" style sheet if that's how you
    do things.

; 4. Try to avoid massive font-size changes relative to 1em

D    In many ways, some random px value (as above, preferably on the
F    body element) is better than a small % of my preferred font-size.
B    A small % is surely going to cause headaches, but a random px
F    value has a decent chance of working, and a much better chance of
G    causing less harm if it doesn't work. On the other hand, about 80%
F    of the body size on a menu stands a great chance of being helpful
F    and a tiny chance of being harmful. So do that! It's pretty safe,
    and the payoff is big.

& 5. Try to consider user style sheets

A    I never realized how powerful user style sheets were until I
C    started using them. Similarly, it helps a great deal if you've
D    experimented with CSS before you tackle potential problems. For
<    example, if have a rule like this in a user style sheet

(        p{color:white;background:black}

D    (ever mind how unlikely that is for the moment) and you have an
!    author style sheet with this

        p{background:white}

F    we have a problem. Try to set common values in pairs and whatnot.
G    If something would look truly hideous with a border, and you could
E    imagine someone putting a border on that element in a user style
<    sheet, play it safe and override the border. Colors and
<    backgrounds are meant to be together; on't forget about
E    transparent backgrounds, since you'll probably need or want them
G    at some point. Another thing, since so few CSS sites seem to do it
F    (for whatever reason), please set a line-height if you assume the
E    default value, even if you just use "normal." I don't think it's
D    going to harm anyone, and it will benefit those of us trying to
G    read a narrow column with a huge line-height (or, theoretically, a
@    wide column with a tiny line-height, but that isn't exactly
    likely).

-- 
John Lewis
U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [131]
=================
.From: moose at literarymoose.info (The Moose)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:41:52 -0500
4Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
7Message-ID: <oproadf2zb98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>

Hello,

KI have played a bit with the display of the unordered lists when they are 
Kused for navigation of a logical sequence of pages, and would like to ask 
Bfor screenshots from the following browsers: *Safari*, *Camino*, 
*Konqueror*.

EThere are two pages (I'd like to get screenshots for both from each 

browser):

9http://www.literarymoose.info/=/destroy/moovigation.html

Ahttp://www.literarymoose.info/=/destroy/moovigation-variant.html

FThe first features generated content (with entities only) hidden via 
Khtml[xmlns] method, the second does not. Mozilla displays &#xxxx; instead 
Mof the character on the second page (I don't know why). Opera7.1 behaves in 
both cases.

DThe size of screenshots does not matter, I'll be watching my inbox.

thank you in advance,

Wojtek

p.s. styles embedded.
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Sun Apr 27 12:53:21 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:53:21 +0100
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
2Message-ID: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>


KDoes anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and below

for OS X?

LI've successfully divided my CSS into basic version, which gets read by all
Mbrowsers, and more advanced CSS, which gets read by browsers that understand
M@import. This works perfectly in every browser I've thrown it at - including
4the betas of OmniWeb 4.5, based on Apple's WebCore.

MUnfortunately, OmniWeb 4.2 understands @import, but hasn't a clue about what
to do with the CSS afterwards.

MIs there a CSS-based way of hiding styles from OmniWeb? Or would I be better
Loff detecting the user-agent on the server - and then add any other problem
browsers to my detection list?


Seb

U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [132]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:09:17 +0900
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
3In-Reply-To: <1160748345-3816664@pointinspace.com>
=Message-ID: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 01:21  AM, Rick Hurst wrote:

I> for some reason this layout is missing the left border when displayed 
E> in IE5 mac. The odd thing is that the space has been left for the 
L> border, but no colour is showing. Any ideas why, or how I might fix > it?
>
/> http://www.hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.htm

EYour <div id="myclear"> is empty, except for an absolute positioned 
Himage (which is taken out of the document flow any way). I deleted the 
F'width' on your #myclear, and added a non-breaking space in the div, 
;and then your layout worked out exactly as in Mozilla 1.4.

	Philippe

:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [133]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:09:30 +0900
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
3In-Reply-To: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
=Message-ID: <7B1D8EC7-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 08:53  PM, Seb Duggan wrote:

H> Does anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and 
> below
> for OS X?

:I use <link rel="stylesheet"............media="Screen" />
(note the capital S)
D<http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/macbrowsercsssupport.html>,
scroll down to the bottom.

	Philippe

:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [134]
=================
*From: WebHead at wi.rr.com (Arlen Walker)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 08:47:55 -0500
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
8In-Reply-To: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
=Message-ID: <D971F63A-78B6-11D7-A71B-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>


@On Saturday, April 26, 2003, at 01:52  PM, Matthew Davey wrote:

J> Works fine in all win browsers I've been able to download, no Mac, and 
> Linux
H> till I get a spare day, so if any one with either of these platforms 
> could
)> check it for me, I'd be most grateful.

JNot bad. Suffers from the "phantom right margin" bug in IE5/Mac, because 
Iyour "linksright" div is right-poistioned within 16px of the right edge 
Fof the viewport. When this happens, IE5/Mac adds another 16px to the 
Gwidth, forcing horizontal scrollbars when none are needed. Fix is not 
Jpositioning it within 16 px of the edge and optionally giving a negative 
$right margin to move the text over.

=Also center column is a tad lower than the two outside ones.

ABoth of these are minor cosmetics, the second one could even be 
Econsidered an intentional design choice (the "asymmetry adds visual 
Jinterest" bit). Positioned as it is below the subtitle for your site, it 
@actually works better than uniform starting positions, I think.

HThen again, I always liked comic books with non-square panels, as well.


Have fun,
Arlen

-----
-In God We Trust, all others must supply data
U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [135]
=================
0From: css at nextw3.net (Marcello Armand-Pilon)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:42:17 +0200
,Subject: [css-d] IE Win positioning problem
:Message-ID: <3E8423B100919A0B@smtp12.cp.tin.it> (added by
	postmaster@virgilio.it)

Hi all,

�I am working on a site that displays correctly in a variety of browsers under Mac and Win, except IE6 Win. Sorry if I cannot provide a URL, 'cause I'm still working locally, but here's the main DIV that's causing the poblem:

#mainframe {
	position: absolute;
	text-align: center;
	width: 800px;
	margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px;
	padding: 0;
	text-align: left;
	}

�With all the browsers I have tested so far, the left margin is anchored 20px far from the browser left side, but IE6 Win add a huge 400px margin (more or less) on the left side. If I change the position from absolute to relative, things run better, but the content is then liquid, while I want it to stay 20px from the browser left side, and don't move.

[I'm sure this matter has been discussed already, but any help would be gratly appreciated.

Thanks, Marcello
:From chris at placenamehere.com  Sun Apr 27 17:55:27 2003
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:55:27 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
3In-Reply-To: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
5Message-ID: <BAD183BF.53C5C%chris@placenamehere.com>

?on 4/27/03 7:53 AM, Seb Duggan at outlaw@joseywales.com wrote:

O> Unfortunately, OmniWeb 4.2 understands @import, but hasn't a clue about what
!> to do with the CSS afterwards.
>

LThere's a point at which a user needs to be reminded they're using a flawed
Lproduct by seeing things break. Most site builders don't have the luxury of
Kputting NN4, IE, Safari or Moz in that category due to the politics of the
Imarketplace. I consider OmniWeb 4.2- as the exception for a few reasons:

K* OmniWeb users as a whole seem to be the types that are more impressed by
JUI features and control then they are with presentation of content. While
IOmniGroup doesn't promote the fact that their rendering engine is behind
Mthey don't cover the fact up at all. They maintain a more active part in the
Kgeneral user community then any browser vendor I know and they are very in
Ftune with the interface features that users are looking for. The only
Mcompelling reason (to date) to use OmniWeb is was for its interface options.
JAs a result, using the terminology of another recent thread, I would as a
Mrule consider OmniWeb users to be "clued" and able to roll with the punches.

J* The OmniGroup folks are good people who know their product is flawed in
Lterms of CSS. For some time now they have had plans to rewrite their engine
Kso haven't totally overhauled their current NN4-like engine, but even with
Kthat in mind they have always (IMExperience) been quick to fix errors that
Jcaused the loss of access to a site. So in many ways having a broken page
/has made the browser better in the short term.


MSo given that OW is a currently active development project (unlike NN4), and
Kits users are as a (my) rule the informed type (which is unheard of in all
Lother situations) and keep on top of software updates, I generally take the
Cstance that a site for a general audience should do very little to
accommodate OW users.

GPlease don't try and convince me that I'm wrong here, the above wasn't
Kintended to convince anyone of anything. Just thought it be appropriate to
Gstate my (formed after 2 yrs of watching this very open community-like
Eproject, cause I'm a software geek that way) position on the matter.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [136]
=================
+From: derek at derekrogerson.com (Derek R)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:06:46 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
7Message-ID: <001101c30cf0$27e7e8a0$96a95bd1@satellite>

	  
Somebody said:
,>| I did 100% at one point and got an equal
/>| amount of suggestions from users to reduce 
7>| or enlarge the default size as I do now. Go figure?


IIt is my experience that designers tend to make their font-size as small
Gas possible simply because the content which the font-size contains is
)largely, if not entirely, communicative.

=This is to say, most blogs/websites/news-stories etc have no
Einformation/knowledge to offer so ostentatious exhibition is instead
9brought in to disguise --or make up for-- the absence of
Dcontent/substance, which is plainly absent when one reads the words
(i.e. it is communicative).

AIt is very much like Western/European culture in general, or say
EHollywood promotions, where what is promoted (the movie/tv-show, for
Hinstance) is, upon real experience/inspection [i.e. sitting through the
Aentirety of the production] not-at-all-worth-the-time-spent, but
Deverybody-else-is-doing-it, so the tendency (fear) is not to appear
oppositional.

HSmall-font designers treat their text like greek-text, which is to say,
Cif they were to expand it and make it much larger-in-size it would
Ibecome *painfully* obvious just what is being said (nothing worthwhile).

ITo provide the /appearance/ of intelligence, relevance, and/or pleasure,
Gthe designer uses small font-sizes to mask the content itself, thereby
Gsaving-face through obscuring what the designer knows to be valueless.

GThis is the same as people who wear message t-shirts or highly-visible
Dbranded clothing, who, by diverting attention to the message on the
Bmaterial one is wearing, obscures the wearer (the person) thereby
Hsaving-face and avoiding the pain of being responsible for who-they-are
(don't look in my eyes).  

IThis is not to say most everything online or in Western/European culture
Hhas nothing genuine to say or lacks value, indeed, this is exactly what
>I'm saying, but, rather, that *revelation* of this absence of
Isense/content is, its own medicine, so to speak, so that the sight of it
makes one account for it.

EIn summary, a larger font-size (say 100% ~ the whole tamale) is more
Hprominent than the usual smaller font-sizes one encounters, which is to
Bsay larger is bigger, which no doubt will cause attention to come
forward (to the content).

EThe real question is what are you saying (substance) and why are you
Htrying to hide it? (I understand ostentatious exhibition is largely the
'substance of Western/European design).


AThis email is a characterization of a generalization (seething).


+__________________________________________
"Chant down Babylon"
	 
	 
U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [137]
=================
(From: tl at abhalfdan.dk (Torben Linde)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:57:11 +0200
8Subject: [css-d] IE missing borders on inline list menu
6Message-ID: <20030427195711.28518@smtp.gnbolignet.dk>

Hello

BI have made a tab-like menu for this page: www.bryggenet.dk using
Funordered lists with inline li's. The page is valid xhtml 1.0 and css
(except the forum area).

HThe menus are located in div class="menua" and div class="menub". menua
<is the tabs and menub is a submenu on the page of each tab.

<The css-file is here: www.bryggenet.dk/layout/bryggenet.css

JThis works well in Mozilla and Safari, but the tab-like look is dependant
)on changes in border color on the li's. 
JIE/win will not show the top and bottom border on these elements and that
ruins the tab-effect somewhat.

8Is there any way to make IE show the borders correctly?

JI have tried to do the menus with left-floated divs instead but so far it
has not worked too well.



Torben Linde
U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [138]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:42:10 +0100
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
3Message-ID: <l03130300bad1d4c8a3aa@[192.168.1.36]>

K>Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I
M>could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending
L>on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the
>size of the image

IJust a quick note since I'm unfortunately tied up with mountains of work
Eand attempting to resuscitate my iBook which is dying the death of a
Aseemingly infinite number of colourful (and colourless) screens.

JAs Holly points out, it's not too hard to make css layouts fall over. The
Gpage can't take in to account all possible bugs and flaws and it's not
Emeant to just be used as is - it's not a substitute for the dull and
;thankless task of checking accross platforms and browsers.

JThat said, I'll try and pursue Holly's line of enquiries as to under what
0precise circumstances things can vanish in IE6.

EAll I can suggest (untested since I have no IE6 at themoment) did is
Esetting the image's position to relative. Nested divs in this layout
Drequire that and maybe images that fit the exact width need it too.
LAlternatively you could increase the width of the right hand column and set
its margin

JAnyhow when I've got a copy of IE6 again I'll investigate and also see if
Mthe pure float model (FFFF rather than FMFM) suffers from the same problems.


U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [139]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:32:11 +0100
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
>In-Reply-To: <7B1D8EC7-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
2References: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <l03130301bad1f7eee1c5@[192.168.0.36]>

H>> Does anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and
	>> below
>> for OS X?

GThere is another way to hide CSS from OmniWeb which doesn't rely on an
.external files like the Codebitch method does

<<http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/test/OmniWebInlineHack.mhtml>

JI'd guess that OmniWeb 4.5 with it's all new rendering engine will now do
Kthe right thing (can't check that myself so any reports on that gratefully

received)

U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [140]
=================
;From: peter.williams at hendersons.com.au (Peter Williams)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:36:58 +1000
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
LMessage-ID: <NBBBKHLHIPAOABOPCOCBEEGJAKAB.peter.williams@hendersons.com.au>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Thomas
> 
D> I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but, one of my pet hates 
B> is sites which spread their text across the whole width of the 
> window. 
> 
3> So there is an argument for using something like
> 
$> 	div.text { max-width:33em; ... }
> 
A> to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of 
> the user's screen.
> 

=I've worked on line lengths of 43 chars in the past as being
=comfortable for reading. Just last week I used the max-width
9directive to prevent text running off to the right in an
=unconstrained manner. It only works in some browsers though.
;I've really started to try to use w3c standards and ignore
?browser quirks and issues where possible for my intranet work.
CUnless a page is rendered unusable in either Moz or IE5 and higher
=I'll go with a clean, standard HTML 4 Strict or XHTML markup
<and some CSS these days. Our public web site is a different
Akettle of fish though, I'll make sure that works well in as many
Bbrowsers as possible, although I won't use non-validating markup.

<flame class="low crackle">
ANew windows of a size chosen by the page author are abhorent :-)
	</flame>

--
Peter Williams
U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [141]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:01:24 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
<Message-ID: <000001c30d08$8ea98680$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>

	Hi guys,
 
@I have done pretty much all I can with my client's new site in 
@css. (I know I have used tables in a couple of places, but that
:was for avoiding IE problems with small screen widths ...
and time constraints)
 
*I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera, 

Mac IE 5?
 
>Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
.MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
 
Thanks ...
 
,... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
 
http://www.golfbreaks.com/
 
--
Sam Ellis - 
7From RHulse at radionz.co.nz  Sun Apr 27 23:36:54 2003
.From: RHulse at radionz.co.nz (Richard Hulse)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:36:54 +1200
&Subject: [css-d] Unfixing fixed menus
4Message-ID: <sead0460.099@rnz03.wgtn.radionz.co.nz>

+I have posted this on WD-L for discussion.

HI'm posting it here as it is of interest, even is slightly OT due the =
javascript content.

	regards,
Richard
%=AF---------------------------------
>I have taken Eric Bednarz' example of fixed areas in IE at=20

"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

(and applied it to this sub-site at RNZ:

&http://www.radionz.co.nz/digitallife/

MIt worked quite well but for one main issue - when the width of the screen =
Mis too narrow the scoll bar dissappears. I'm not sure if this can be fixed =
by tweaking the CSS files.

LAnyway, as is always the case with fixed menus, if the window is not high =
(enough you lose the bottom of the menu.

KI have come up with a little JS that fixes both the problem. It works in =
,Moz and IE 5/6. on PC (not sure about Mac).

=In moz if the browser is too short then it unfixes the menu.
MIn IE it unfixes the menu, and re-fixes it if the browser is returned to a =
suitable size.

FThe JS relys on the IE style sheet having a title (which IE ignores).

.Any suggestions and improvements appreciated.

U13:43:45.456 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [142]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:43:12 +0100
!Subject: [css-d] Problem layouts
;Message-ID: <022269AB-790A-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


Hello,

GI've been using CSS for a while now and I'm beginning to feel that it 
Gdoesn't quite offer me the design toolbox I need. During almost every 
Dproject I work on there is a period of hacking with CSS to get the 
Edesired results. While most of this is due to browser bugs, I think 
/that in some situations CSS lacks design nous.

GI think that one of the reasons that CSS layout is being adopted very 
Eslowly (1 major site to date) is because it doesn't make it easy to 
Hrebuild your pages in the new syntax. Of course it's mainly because of 
Hbad browsers and the continuing use of legacy browsers that's to blame.

HI'm trying to put together a list of problem layouts that people often 
Fwant to build but can't do so simply. The worst one is positioning a 
Eblock element at the centre of the browser window. I know there are 
Flots of ways to achieve or almost achieve the required effect, using 
G100% tables, margin:auto; or other options, but these are non-trivial 
9solutions and use syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.

@If you have come across situations where CSS doesn't offer the 
Eexpressiveness you feel it should, please let me know either on- or 

off-list.

EI apologise if you are also a member of www-style and have received 
this request twice.

Thanks,

Ben


(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:45.457 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [143]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:02:51 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>

Hi everyone,

KI searched the list archives for an answer but couldn't find one, so it's 
$either well hidden or non-existent.

MI can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a global font size. 
IHere's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as IE6 in all 

cases)...

-On a page with no other styling, I did this:

      body {font-size: .7em}

MIn Mozilla, all my text is exactly the size I expected and wanted it to be. 
KIn IE6, there's no effect. The font size stays at the default 1em (100% / 
16px).

=So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:

      body {font-size: .7em}
      td {font-size: .7em}

MThis puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule text 
that Superman couldn't read.


KSo I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing 
Kis styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers - 
aren't they?....

"      (no body styling this time)
      td {font-size: .7em}

GThat looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a 
strong pair of glasses.


HAll I want is to set a global font size, and make other sizing changes 
'where necessary. So what's the secret?
U13:43:45.457 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [144]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:14:58 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] Problem layouts
<In-Reply-To: <022269AB-790A-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>
3Message-ID: <000001c30d2b$fb536fd0$42d5fea9@Estes>


> 
=> I'm trying to put together a list of problem layouts that 
> people often 
H> want to build but can't do so simply. The worst one is positioning a 
G> block element at the centre of the browser window. I know there are 
H> lots of ways to achieve or almost achieve the required effect, using 
I> 100% tables, margin:auto; or other options, but these are non-trivial 
;> solutions and use syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.
> 

GWhile I'm sure that you are about to get flamed by people, and rightly
6so, I just want to address one part of your position.

CYou stated in you thread above that margin:auto, was a non-trivial
:solution that uses syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.

"The CSS1 Spec specifically says :

F"Otherwise, if both 'margin-left' and 'margin-right' are 'auto', they
Ewill be set to equal values. This will center the element inside its

parent. "

GWhich means that it is exactly what it is intended to do, and with /2/
Hlines of code which could be simplified to /one/ line of code.  You set
Hmargin-left and margin-right to auto and it centers and that's how that
Gis accomplished.  If you are using other methods, then you are the one
Edoing it wrong not CSS.  That's "non-trivial"?...seems pretty simple
enough to me.

GOn another note, I find that my development efforts have been twice as
Ceasy as in traditional table layouts, and that most 'hacks' can be
Iavoided in many if not all circumstances by using a wee bit more code in
:your code.  You can review my "To hack or not to Hack" at
9http://www.bewb.org/archiveposts.asp?id=11, to read why.

FI feel (as the Lead Creative Artists and Lead Interface Developer for
Ethe company I work for) that I have much more freedom in design than
Hwhen I was faced with supporting legacy browsers.  I have intentionally
Dstepped up my designs because I know that with the power of CSS and
GXHTML, I can produce more vivid content in a more beatiful manner, all
Cwhile providing consistent renderings and with less code than ever
thought possible.

IOn one last note (and I said I was only addressing one point), there are
2quite a few "major" sites adopting CSS layouts.  

To name a few:
http://www.cingular.com 
http://www.search.yahoo.com 
http://www.pga.com 
http://www.wired.com 
http://www.espn.com


HWell anyway, I haven't found that there has been anything that I wanted
Ito create and couldn't because of the limitations of CSS and XHTML.  And
Hwith the additional support of CSS2 and then CSS3, we'll have even more
(to work with, and I for one can't wait!

Good luck to ya'

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
 


U13:43:45.457 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [145]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:17:39 -0500
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
<In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
3Message-ID: <000101c30d2c$5b0e6ce0$42d5fea9@Estes>


DThis is from the wiki http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsingEms

GA word of caution concerning IE. Be careful using ems. The most recent
Fversions of IE for Windows tend to flummox text with a font-size less
@than 1em ("0.5em", for instance). Percentages tend to work more
Gpredictably, and (for who knows what reason) are usually more accurate
H(possibly rounding errors?) than their em equivalents. Please note that
Ithis applies only to the font-size and line-height properties. All other
Cproperties for which ems are suitable (margins, padding, width and
Gheight, among others) are not so for percentages, since the latter are
Hcalculated according to the dimensions of parent elements. - ShawnAllen

H...and the other problem with EMs in IE is the resizing of them. If for
?instance you set the root element (either <body> or <html>) to
Ifont-size:1em, then just setting View > Text Size to "smaller" can cause
the text to become unreadable.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
 


> -----Original Message-----
-> From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
G> [mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Joel Young
'> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 8:03 PM
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
1> Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
> 
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
@> I searched the list archives for an answer but couldn't find 
> one, so it's 
&> either well hidden or non-existent.
> 
=> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a 
> global font size. 
@> Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as 
> IE6 in all 
> cases)...
> 
/> On a page with no other styling, I did this:
> 
>       body {font-size: .7em}
> 
>> In Mozilla, all my text is exactly the size I expected and 
> wanted it to be. 
A> In IE6, there's no effect. The font size stays at the default 
> 1em (100% / 
	> 16px).
> 
?> So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:
> 
>       body {font-size: .7em}
>       td {font-size: .7em}
> 
@> This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into 
> miniscule text 
> that Superman couldn't read.
> 
> 
?> So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since 
> all I'm doing 
>> is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in 
> all browsers - 
> aren't they?....
> 
$>       (no body styling this time)
>       td {font-size: .7em}
> 
I> That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a 
> strong pair of glasses.
> 
> 
;> All I want is to set a global font size, and make other 
> sizing changes 
)> where necessary. So what's the secret?
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
-> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] 
6> http://www.css-> discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> Supported 
> by evolt.org -- 
+> http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 


U13:43:45.457 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [146]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:55:42 +0930
Subject: [css-d] Content width
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
?	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net> <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
/Message-ID: <3EAC9126.6030101@adelaide.edu.au>

Steve Thomas wrote:

> ...
>
3> So there is an argument for using something like
>
'>     div.text { max-width:33em; ... }
>
E> to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of the 
> user's screen. 

HExperimentally, I've created a new ebook with a slight variation to my 
Hstandard style sheet, to see how this looks and works in practice. You 
Dcan see the result at http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/h/h27ro/

%The style sheet now reads (in part):

BODY {
-        margin-left: 3em; margin-right: 2em;
-        color: #000000; background: #ffffff;
}
/html>body { max-width:33em; margin:1em auto; }

EThe last line is the new bit, and this appears to work perfectly in 
DMozilla 1.3/Win. (Also prints beautifully.) It also displays OK on 
GIE6/Win, although the max-width doesn't work. Maybe "html>body" isn't 
Himplemented on IE6? (Can't find that browser compatibility chart right 
now -- too many bookmarks!)

HThis approach also means that it will display OK on NN4, which ignores 
the last line (I guess).

MI'd appreciate some feedback from those with Macs and/or different browsers.


	Regards,
Steve

-- 

Stephen Thomas, 
Senior Systems Analyst, 
University of Adelaide Library
UNIVERSITY OF ADELAIDE SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
'Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au 
2URL: http://www.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/

U13:43:45.457 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [147]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:26:22 -0500
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
<In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
3Message-ID: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>

 
<> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a
> global font size. 
@> Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as 
> IE6 in all 
> cases)...
> 

GI tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
7.1 on WinXP


<style type="text/css">
body,td {font-size:0.7em;}
	</style>


GBasically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
Hdoesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
Opera

Looks good in all of them.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org



U13:43:45.457 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [148]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:04:07 -0400
Subject: [css-d] Content width
0In-Reply-To: <3EAC9126.6030101@adelaide.edu.au>
7Message-ID: <003101c30d32$d59a2200$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

>  Steve Thomas :
"> <snip> Maybe "html>body" isn't 
> implemented on IE6? 

INope, IE ignores the html>body selector entirely... For sure on Win, and
Hif I remember correctly (which is always a gamble at this hour) also on
*Mac.  Reference the common Box Model Hack
6http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html.

--Josh

U13:43:45.457 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [149]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:10:16 -0400
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
=In-Reply-To: <000001c30d08$8ea98680$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>
7Message-ID: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Sam  Ellis (css-d) :
,> I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera, 
> Mac IE 5?
>  
@> Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
0> MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
>  
> Thanks ...
>  
.> ... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
>  
http://www.golfbreaks.com/

ICan't help with the Mac/Unix issues, sorry.  Hit your site with IE6 (Win
IXP) and thought it was a very sharp lookin' design!  Good work.  But hit
Hit with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
Ithe page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
need, lemme know.

--Josh

U13:43:45.457 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [150]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:16:35 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
;Message-ID: <D17FA29E-7927-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


7Looks good in Safari Beta 2 and Camino 0.7 on the Mac.

EIn IE 5 on OS X it looks good except the title area of the Featured 
IVenues portlet has gone awry, it is the height of the picture and fully 
Dcontains the image. I can provide a screenshot if you send me your 
;address (I joined the list after you posted your request).

Ben


FOn Monday, Apr 28, 2003, at 04:10 Europe/London, Josh Ambrutis wrote:

>
>
>> Sam  Ellis (css-d) :
,>> I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera,
>> Mac IE 5?
>>
A>> Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
1>> MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
>>
>> Thanks ...
>>
/>> ... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
>>
> http://www.golfbreaks.com/
>
G> Can't help with the Mac/Unix issues, sorry.  Hit your site with IE6 
> (Win
H> XP) and thought it was a very sharp lookin' design!  Good work.  But 
> hit
J> it with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
H> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if 
> you
> need, lemme know.
>
	> --Josh
>
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:45.457 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [151]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:29:33 +0900
Subject: [css-d] Content width
8In-Reply-To: <003101c30d32$d59a2200$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
=Message-ID: <A0FFF166-7929-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


>On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 12:04  PM, Josh Ambrutis wrote:

H> Nope, IE ignores the html>body selector entirely... For sure on Win, 
> and
J> if I remember correctly (which is always a gamble at this hour) also on
,> Mac.  Reference the common Box Model Hack
8> http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html.

GIE Mac does support html>body no problems. IE win does not understand 
the > child selector.

	Philippe
:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [152]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:31:16 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
4In-Reply-To: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

(At 11:26 PM 4/27/03, Jason Estes wrote:

H>I tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
>7.1 on WinXP
>
>
><style type="text/css">
>body,td {font-size:0.7em;}

></style>
>
>
H>Basically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
I>doesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
>Opera
>
>Looks good in all of them.



IFor some reason that's not working for me, and I'm using WinXP with the 
Lsame browser versions you listed.  I have the IE browser set to 'Smaller', 
Kand Moz at '100%', which I believe are their defaults. Or not? But still, 
Lresizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no 
clue.

JThe other thing is, and I should've mentioned this before, my tests were 
Gonly with no other styling in <body>, but for the actual page I'll be 
Kdoing, <body> will contain more than that, and I don't want the <td>'s to 
=have all those attributes. Sorry for not saying that before.

IIt's late where I am, so I'll pick this up tomorrow and see what's what.

Thanks!

Joel


U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [153]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:44:12 -0400
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
:	<5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
#Message-ID: <3EACA38C.2134@ij.net>

Joel Young wrote:
 
J> For some reason that's not working for me, and I'm using WinXP with the
M> same browser versions you listed.  I have the IE browser set to 'Smaller',
L> and Moz at '100%', which I believe are their defaults. Or not? But still,

FMoz defaults to 16px regardless of other settings. Moz font sizes are
Hnot impacted by system DPI setting except for the menu/chrome text, and
page text sized in points.

HIE defaults to medium. What medium (or other sizes) means to IE depends
Eon the system DPI setting, which defaults to 96. Medium at 96 DPI is
)16px. You can find other combinations at
;http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html

M> resizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no
> clue.

*Are you using an ancient Mozilla version?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [154]
=================
3From: webapprentice at onemain.com (Webapprentice)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:01:59 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
+Message-ID: <3EACA7B7.3070805@onemain.com>

Hello,

3I have a question about the use of width property.

8Look at this site in IE5.5+, Mozilla 1.0+, NS6.2+, etc.

+http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html

HThe middle white area, where there is a link to "See the style sheet," 
Iis not stretched all the way.  I'd like to stretch the white area so it 
?almost reaches the right white area but not colliding with it.

CI've tried "width: auto" and "width: 100%," but this doesn't work.

AI'm trying to mimic the final look with as much CSS as possible:
*http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/final.jpg

EYou can click the link "See the style sheet" to view the stylesheet.
!Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Stephen
U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [155]
=================
/From: nkaisare1 at hotmail.com (Niket Kaisare)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:20:40 +0000
;Subject: [css-d] Navigation links - list? (and Site Check)
6Message-ID: <Law14-F682aZcdjaS3600023087@hotmail.com>

Hi,

HI have four images (150*70px) as main navigation links and a list as a 
/sub-navigation. Currently, I have the links as
<div>
<a href=""><img></a>
#<ul><!-- List of sublinks --></ul>
<a href=""><img></a><br>
<a href=""><img></a><br>
<a href=""><img></a>
</div>

LI read on accessibility issues that there should be something other than a 
K<br> space or carriage return separating various links for accessibility. 
JHence I tried changing the main links also to a list. But the problem is 
'that in NS4.7, it gets displayed like:
  ---------
  | IMAGE |
* ---------
!(where * represents list marker)

HThis is no good because the display becomes confusing. It will be much 
better if display would be:
* ---------
  | IMAGE |
  ---------

+Second thing is that the page does a FOUC 
M(http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/fouc.asp) I tried the method mentioned in 
Athis article, but that didn't help... I still get FOUC in Opera.

URL for the specific page:
$http://atlanta.vibha.org/volunteer/
CSS for this page:
(http://atlanta.vibha.org/image/real.css

LAlso, this is my first project using CSS. So any suggestions for improving 
will be appreciated.

TIA
Niket

B_________________________________________________________________
<Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
1http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [156]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:21:23 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
,Message-ID: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>

HAnyone here that plays on blogshares has probably noticed already that 
GSeyed (the owner) changed the navigation images to text the other day 
G(most likely to speed up load-time).  This led to an experiment on my 
Ipart to see how much I could clean up the code.  I started from scratch 
Jto make the Blogshares stock page[1] and ended up with a version that is 
Gvalid XHTML 1.0 Strict, 10kb smaller (20kb smaller if you include the 
Hsupporting images/javascript), fluid-width, relative font sizes (I did 
Fwhat was easiest, perhaps not the best method, so don't go off on me 
Ilike that ems vs % thread), and more Netscape-friendly (it's still ugly 
2and not easy to use, but at least it's readable).

HI'm mainly looking for a browser check. I've got Firebird (yesterday's 
Fnightly) and IE6, but I need others... especially Macs.  I know that 
DIE/Mac has a huge horiz. scroll due to the stock ticker, but there 
Edoesn't seem to be any way to fix that without causing all kinds of 
other problems.

FIf you've got any comments on the layout unrelated to the browser or 
*CSS, let me know anyway (maybe offlist?).

I[Note: I do not work for Blogshares. Seyed hasn't even seen this layout 
Byet, although I emailed him just before sending this to the list]

--
Marshall Roch

[1] 
Lhttp://www.blogshares.com/blogs.php?blog=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogshares.com%2F

U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [157]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:43:24 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
-In-Reply-To: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
,References: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
,Message-ID: <3EACB16C.4020309@exclupen.com>

Marshall Roch wrote:
J> I'm mainly looking for a browser check. I've got Firebird (yesterday's 
H> nightly) and IE6, but I need others... especially Macs.  I know that 
F> IE/Mac has a huge horiz. scroll due to the stock ticker, but there 
G> doesn't seem to be any way to fix that without causing all kinds of 
> other problems.

4Easier to help me if I include a link, huh?  Oops..

-http://www.exclupen.com/projects/blogshares/

--
Marshall Roch

U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [158]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:48:39 -0800
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
,References: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
'Message-ID: <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>


Marshall,
HOn ie5.1.5mac the 'GO' button is shifted underneath the input field on 
Jyour search form. Also, the background is missing to the left of the top 
Fbanner leaving a blank white space. The ticker is missing completely.

IOn ns7.02mac the ticker is overlayed atop the blue 'Fantasy Blog Shares 
JMarket' rule and is unreadable. It also takes up so many cpu cycles that 
9its making typing this creep along slowly and painfully.
--
Tony
U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [159]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:24:17 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <000001c30d57$30f3b660$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


>  
> http://www.golfbreaks.com/

J> it with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
K> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
> need, lemme know.

Thanks for the heads up.

LI had only checked with Opera 6, and I think I changed the css for that bar
recently - since testing

Sam


U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [160]
=================
*From: sasha at amm.com.au (Sasha Gerrand)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:30:57 +1000
8Subject: [css-d] Re: Moovigation - a screenshot request
8In-Reply-To: <oproadf2zb98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>
-Message-ID: <BAD315D1.BFD0%sasha@amm.com.au>

Try these:

3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-camino1.jpg
3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-camino1.jpg

3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-safari1.jpg
3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-safari2.jpg

HTH - both on OS X 10.2.5

Cheers,
Sasha

--=AD--=AD--=AD--=AD--
Sasha Gerrand
sasha@amm.com.au
+61 425 745 207

EOM=20

MNOTICE - This message and any attached files may contain information that i=
s
Lconfidential and/or subject of legal privilege intended only for use by the
Hintended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient or the person
Mresponsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, be advise=
d
Ithat you have received this message in error and that any dissemination,
Jcopying or use of this message or attachment is strictly forbidden, as is
Mthe disclosure of the information therein. If you have received this messag=
e
Fin error please notify the sender immediately and delete the message.

-> From: The Moose <moose@literarymoose.info>
#> Organization: LiteraryMoose.info
%> Reply-To: moose@literarymoose.info
(> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:41:52 -0500
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
6> Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
>=20
	> Hello,
>=20
L> I have played a bit with the display of the unordered lists when they are
L> used for navigation of a logical sequence of pages, and would like to ask
C> for screenshots from the following browsers: *Safari*, *Camino*,
> *Konqueror*.
>=20
F> There are two pages (I'd like to get screenshots for both from each
> browser):
>=20
=> http://www.literarymoose.info/=3D/destroy/moovigation.html
>=20
E> http://www.literarymoose.info/=3D/destroy/moovigation-variant.html
>=20
G> The first features generated content (with entities only) hidden via
L> html[xmlns] method, the second does not. Mozilla displays &#xxxx; instead
M> of the character on the second page (I don't know why). Opera7.1 behaves =
in
> both cases.
>=20
F> The size of screenshots does not matter, I'll be watching my inbox.
>=20
> thank you in advance,
>=20
	> Wojtek
>=20
> p.s. styles embedded.
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>=20
U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [161]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:34:47 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <000101c30d58$af49ac30$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


J> .. with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
K> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
> need, lemme know.

> -- Josh

;Just downloaded Opera 7.1 and I cannot see the problem ...

HIt looks as if your version of Opera is looking at the print stylesheet
E(try print previewing). What version are you using? It would be very
Guseful to see screenshots. Does anyone else know about Opera rendering
#css from a media=print stylesheet?

1.. maybe it is my use of the !important rule...?

FThe only issue I can see is that the text on the Features Venues goes
Cover the Request Brochure images (because of position: relative to
avoid the ie6 peekaboo bug)

Thanks

Sam

U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [162]
=================
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:42:17 +0200
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
4In-Reply-To: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
3References: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
)Message-ID: <oprobw0rt0yoq9u9@localhost>

JOn Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:26:22 -0500, Jason Estes <ckestes@bewb.org> wrote:

=>> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a
K>> global font size. Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the 
 >> same as IE6 in all cases)...

HIn Opera 7 and MSIE, you'll get behavior like Mozilla when you trigger 
KStandards mode. In Quirks mode rendering, font-sizes don't inherit into a 
Htables... In Opera 5-6 and MSIE 4-5.5 you are stuck, as these browsers 
don't have a Standards mode.

I> I tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
> 7.1 on WinXP
>
> <style type="text/css">
> body,td {font-size:0.7em;}
> </style>
>
I> Basically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
J> doesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
> Opera
>
> Looks good in all of them.

MIt shouldn't work that way according to the specs (TD fonts should be sized 
Lat .49 of the default size...), so it will probably break in Opera 7, MSIE 
H6 and Mozilla when you trigger Standards mode. But if you make sure to 
Ktrigger Quirks mode, this might be a compromise because it will also work 
in MSIE 4-5.5 and Opera 4-6.

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
@ making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com M
U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [163]
=================
4From: design at q7design.demon.co.uk (David Leader)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:35:04 +0100
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <p04330100bad1fbd43502@[194.222.231.193]>

DOn the topic of Safari uptake on MacOS X, I'd just like to mention 
Fthat at the moment Safari is the only Mac browser that supports Java 
C1.4. (I was suprised when I read this on a Mac Java list but I've 
Etested it and find that currently IE and Mozilla do not support the 
EJava 1.4 plugin) This may have nothing to do with css, but it has a 
Elot to do with the sort of reasons Mac users might switch to Safari 
Band why I presume Apple decided to have its own browser, i.e. to 
Densure Mac users were not dependent on third parties for access to 
$web content (e.g. on-line banking).

<It is clearly important from a css standpoint that as much 
Fconstructive criticism as possible is brought to bear to ensure that 
ESafari has good css support. One imagines Apple and the Safari will 
be receptive to this.

David
8From rick at starskiweb.co.uk  Mon Apr 28 09:10:55 2003
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:10:55 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
>In-Reply-To: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
=References: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
0Message-ID: <3EACE20F.6030806@starskiweb.co.uk>

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

G> Your <div id="myclear"> is empty, except for an absolute positioned 
J> image (which is taken out of the document flow any way). I deleted the 
L> 'width' on your #myclear, and added a non-breaking space in the div, and 
9> then your layout worked out exactly as in Mozilla 1.4.

FThanks for the advice Philippe, but I haven't managed to get mine to 
work using the above advice:-

+http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.2.htm

,The left border is still missing on IE5 mac

Iunless the person who is testing this for me has a different version of 
	mac IE5?
U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [164]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:46:49 +0900
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
1In-Reply-To: <3EACE20F.6030806@starskiweb.co.uk>
=Message-ID: <F34BB1E0-7955-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 05:10  PM, Rick Hurst wrote:

H> Thanks for the advice Philippe, but I haven't managed to get mine to 
 > work using the above advice:-
>
-> http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.2.htm
>
.> The left border is still missing on IE5 mac

,Comparing your stylesheet, and what I used:
#document-wrap {
	border-top:12px solid black;
	border-left:12px solid black;
	/*height: 100%;*/
}

II had commented out the height declaration, I should've mentioned it, I 
guess.

	Philippe
:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:45.465 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [165]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:19:14 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
3References: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
0 <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428061642.00bcf118@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>


>Joel Young wrote:
O> > resizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no

> > clue.


(At 12:44 AM 4/28/03, Felix Miata wrote:

+>Are you using an ancient Mozilla version?



NNo. I'm using 1.3... I use the most recent release of any browser I test on. 
U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [166]
=================
,From: tarquin at planetunreal.com (tarquin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:37:55 +0100
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
0Message-ID: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>

*what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
&as seen here to make rounded corners:

Hhttp://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

Gshould we avoid these because they are non-standard? (the same way we 
Eshould be avoiding IE-only stuff like scrollbar, filters, & marquee)

*is there a reference for these somewhere?

U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [167]
=================
,From: tarquin at planetunreal.com (tarquin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:47:05 +0100
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0References: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0Message-ID: <3EACF899.6050902@planetunreal.com>

tarquin wrote:

>
>
,> is there a reference for these somewhere?

found something:

Mhttp://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/nsextensions.htm
:-)

& started a page on the wiki

U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [168]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:24:32 -0400
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
=In-Reply-To: <000101c30d58$af49ac30$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>
7Message-ID: <002901c30d78$be93a6d0$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Sam Ellis (css-d) : 
=> Just downloaded Opera 7.1 and I cannot see the problem ...
> 
@> It looks as if your version of Opera is looking at the print 
> stylesheet
G> (try print previewing). What version are you using? It would be very
I> useful to see screenshots. Does anyone else know about Opera rendering
%> css from a media=print stylesheet?

)http://portalsmith.com/golfbreaks-ss.jpg

GOpera 7.02, Win XP.  Did a print preview, and while some of the layout
Gchanged, it didn't change much... Text links still unreadable, but the
?content switched from anchored left to centered, and the green
&backgrounds were dropped.  HTH a bit.

--Josh

U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [169]
=================
#From: liorean at f2o.org (liorean)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:55:49 +0200
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0References: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>

tarquin wrote:
,> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
(> as seen here to make rounded corners:
J> http://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

CThere are three reasons for vendor specific properties and values:
F1. Implementing a not-yet-standard css property, such as css3 rounded
	corners.
B2. Allowin the specification of behaviors and handling in css for
Ebehaviors that you can not for the momemnt achieve with your current
supported base of standards.
A3. Adding new functionality that neither can be defined in other
Ftechnologies for the web or is upcoming in an upcoming new or updated

standard.

EIn moz, we see quite a few cases of 1 and some of 2. I suppose there
:might be some 3 as well, but if so I don't know about it.
=In op7, we see 2 alone, from what I can tell - if their "web
4specifications supported in opera" page is correct.
/In ie, we see mainly a bunch of 3 and a few 2.
GIn saf/konq, I have no idea what may or may not exist when it comes to
4this, but I would think the engine is rather clean.

I> should we avoid these because they are non-standard? (the same way we 
G> should be avoiding IE-only stuff like scrollbar, filters, & marquee)

%You should stay clearly away from 3.
 You should consider avoiding 2.
%I see no reason to stay away from 1.

IYou should use 1 in combination with the W3C upcoming if you wish to use
that feature.

,> is there a reference for these somewhere?

1Oh, they are spread over the vendors using them.
Opera:
R<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/operaextensions.htm>
9Opera 7: <http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/#xml-css-link>
	Mozilla:
l<http://unstable.elemental.com/mozilla/build/latest/mozilla/dom/dox/interfacensIDOMNSCSS2Properties.html>, 

O<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/nsextensions.htm>
Microsoft:
I<http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/css/reference/attributes.asp>

FThere are also a few that MSDN doesn't contain any documentation for,
<like the expression(jsExpression) syntax. (It only contains
Idocumentation for the getExpression, setExpression and removeExpression,
Cand this document is about the best I can find about expression():
G<http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/recalc.asp>)

-- 
&liorean <mailto:liorean@user.bip.net>

HViewStyles, ViewScripts, ToggleStyles and GraphicsInfo bookmarklets and
)Theme Switcher, Cookies Handler scripts:
#<http://liorean.web-graphics.com/>

U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [170]
=================
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:52:03 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
(	<004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL>
4Message-ID: <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>

Hi Al,

>
> Here're a couple more:
G> http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
> problematic on Mac)

Msorry to disappoint you, but your menue doesn't work as intended on MSIE 5.0
Jon W2k. The menue just scrolls with the rest of the page. no fixed menue.
unfortunately.

greetings from germany,

Jens Grochtdreis
U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [171]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:04:11 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <002901c30d78$be93a6d0$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <001301c30d7e$4ba8cd20$6300a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


+> http://portalsmith.com/golfbreaks-ss.jpg
I> Opera 7.02, Win XP.  Did a print preview, and while some of the layout
I> changed, it didn't change much... Text links still unreadable, but the

Kthe links are meant to be small - this is for printing and if they are too
Jbig they much up the entire site (and take up too much screen realestate)
Kand as most people do not want to read them, they are in fine print - only
Iif the person wants to go to the page ... probably me being too hi-tech!

Glooks like Opera 7.02 is using all the !important css in the print.css
Estylesheet throughout the entire media range, instead of print only.

?I'm going try to download 7.02 to test, if not will post again

Cheers
Sam

U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [172]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:09:39 -0300
.Subject: (resend) Re: [css-d] ems or percent?
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

=(I think the email below may have gotten lost in the shuffle
'over the weekend, so I'm resending it.
8If I've broken any etiquette by doing so, I apologize.)



!At 09:20 PM 4/26/03, Mike wrote:
><snip>
N>On the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
J>your opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
H>settings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
>users, most of the time?
>
>Mike
>Edinburgh, Scotland




LYes! This is what my original question was about, and I'm glad you brought 
Lit back around, Mike. Hopefully someone will have an answer for us. In the 
Kmeantime, let's see if I understand a few things.  Someone please tell me 
<if I'm even close to knowing what I'm talking about.... :-)

===============
Scenario 1:
AAssume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}

?This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
#of the browser's default. Yes? No?
===============
Scenario 2:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 1em}

AAll text on the page will still be 80% of the browser's default,
=because basically 1em = 100%, and I'm only setting it to 20%
$less (which is 80%).  Right? Wrong?
===============
Scenario 3:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 0.9em}

:Okay, NOW the text will actually be just under 80% of the
:browser default, because it is 9/10ths of 80% of default.
===============
Scenario 4:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 100%}

=Again, the text remains at only 80% of default, because I've
Cset it to be 100% of the body font size (not that I would do that,
it's just for example)
===============
One more... Scenario 5:
body {font-size: 100%}
0.classname {font-size: 1em} or {font-size: 80%}

FHere, the text will either be the full browser default, or 80% of it.
Right?
===============


HIf all the above are correct, then it's just as easy to set the body at
D100% all the time, and simply use smaller percentages for different
sizes.
BThat, or do body {font-size: 100%}, and use various em sizes, and
Ceverything should work out - keeping the sizes within a reasonable
range, of course.

8Did I reach home base, or am I somewhere in left field?


Joel
U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [173]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:11:27 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234D@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

HCorrect me if I'm wrong, but min-height isn't supported in IE 5 on Mac,
right?

BIn that case, how do I get an element to adapt its size after its
	content,
8but that it will still be a specified height otherwise.

BFor example, I want a DIV to be at least 20 px height, but if its
content is more,=20
Fthen I want it to adapt its size (and the whole document's flow after
that).

?This works with min-height:20px; in Opera, Gecko etc, and with
height:20px; in IE on PC.
GBut in IE 5 on Mac the height is only 20 px no matter the content (and
if the content is
0more, it just flows outside of the element...).

Any solutions for this?


/Robert
1From rijk at opera.com  Mon Apr 28 13:13:59 2003
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:13:59 +0200
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
(In-Reply-To: <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>
KReferences: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com> <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>
)Message-ID: <oprob9llpayoq9u9@localhost>

EOn Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:55:49 +0200, liorean <liorean@f2o.org> wrote:

> tarquin wrote:
->> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
)>> as seen here to make rounded corners:
K>> http://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

GThis page looks fine (maybe a bit boxy) in Opera 7. No harm done, IMO.

E> There are three reasons for vendor specific properties and values:
H> 1. Implementing a not-yet-standard css property, such as css3 rounded
> corners.
E> 2. Allowing the specification of behaviors and handling in css for
G> behaviors that you can not for the momemnt achieve with your current
> supported base of standards.
C> 3. Adding new functionality that neither can be defined in other
H> technologies for the web or is upcoming in an upcoming new or updated
> standard.
[..]
'> You should stay clearly away from 3.
"> You should consider avoiding 2.
'> I see no reason to stay away from 1.
>
K> You should use 1 in combination with the W3C upcoming if you wish to use
> that feature.

IFor both 1, 2 and 3 it is important that the page doesn't depend on the 
Inon-standard property to be useful and good looking. But even when they 
Kdon't cause problems in other browsers, it is best to avoid such features 
Lif you want to build robust public pages. Even in category 1, the property 
Kmight change a bit before it gets into the standard, and it might be also 
Kproblematic when someone else has to take over the maintainance of a page.

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
> making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com
U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [174]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:30:01 +0900
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234D@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
=Message-ID: <220371DF-7975-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


=On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 09:11  PM, Robert Nyman wrote:

J> Correct me if I'm wrong, but min-height isn't supported in IE 5 on Mac,
	> right?

Nope, doesn't work in IE5 mac.
>
D> In that case, how do I get an element to adapt its size after its
> content,
:> but that it will still be a specified height otherwise.
>
D> For example, I want a DIV to be at least 20 px height, but if its
> content is more,
H> then I want it to adapt its size (and the whole document's flow after
	> that).
>

BUsing the intrinsic (is that the word ?) height of the element ? 
?Without a real sample it is a bit difficult to say, of course.
;div {border:1px solid #000; padding: 2px, font-size:12px; 
3line-height:14px;} should give something you want.

Or do I miss something ?

	Philippe


:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [175]
=================
#From: eoghan at redry.net (eoghan)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:49:01 +0100
 Subject: [css-d] select problem
)Message-ID: <3EAD233D.3000203@redry.net>

hello,
Di am referring to a problem that occurs in particular with ie5+ on 
windows. the
J<select> form element is apparently described as a "windowed elements"...
Eso this means that they should paint themselves on top of all other 
elements on a
Hpage. so, when using dropdown menus, selects will appear through them. 
this behaviour
Fdoesnt occur in nn7/moz1+ or firebird0.5. however, these browsers do 
have problems
Ewhen the "multiple" attribute is applied to the select, or when the 
select is opened.
Di was wondering if anyone else had come across this issue. using a 
z-index in this
Fcase will not work. and apart from avoiding this problem, has anyone 
come up with
&any workarounds for this issue. for a
small example, see here:

-http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/css/001.html

thanks

U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [176]
=================
.From: moose at literarymoose.info (The Moose)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:45:20 -0500
4Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
.In-Reply-To: <3EAD1DF2.1020700@jeugdhuisx.be>
-References: <3EAD1DF2.1020700@jeugdhuisx.be>
7Message-ID: <oproca1u1m98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>

M> You'd have to encode the entities with the \xxxx values. I think they are 
 > in hex, but am not 100% sure.

MWell, thank you kindly, my good sir! You have helped me more than you would 
Jthink. I have now made the variant obsolete, and rewrote the entities in 
Mhex (eg. content: "\xxxx", " ";). Now I must start rewriting where thus far 
I had misused it.

grazie,

Wojtek

Hp.s. I now have screenshots complete. Many thanks to everyone who sent 
theirs.
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Mon Apr 28 13:57:44 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:57:44 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234E@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

5> line-height:14px;} should give something you want.
> Or do I miss something ?

'Line-height won't help in this case...

Well, take this example:

div.levelItem{
	position:relative;
	width:100px;
	border:1px solid black;	=09
	background:#ffffa2;
	min-height:20px;
}

"and then for IE on PC I add this:

div.levelItem{
	height:20px;
}

HBut if the content is, for instance, a full sentence, I want the DIV to
expand its height
2according to the space that the sentence takes up
I(which works with min-height, and in IE on PC it resizes automatically).

2How do I get that kind of resizing for IE on Mac?


/Robert

U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [177]
=================
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:02:51 -0400
Subject: [css-d] Flash & CSS ?
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>


Dear all,

.I was asked the following question last week:

D"Can you use FLASH in the same way as you can with images in CSS to
7provide background and/or rollover effects for links".

IMy first reaction was no as (I believe) FLASH has to be the top layer of
Da web page and also how would you code the EMBED statement?  Then I
Dthought I'd ask here as CSS is still fairly new to me and maybe I'm
missing something.


Comments?

Thanks,

Dave
U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [178]
=================
3From: web2k2 at premonition.co.uk (Geoff Sheridan)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:39:17 +0100
Subject: [css-d] Flash & CSS ?
In-Reply-To: 
K <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>
References: 
K <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>
2Message-ID: <p0510030dbad2ddc8ef7c@[192.168.8.3]>

E>"Can you use FLASH in the same way as you can with images in CSS to
8>provide background and/or rollover effects for links".
>
J>My first reaction was no as (I believe) FLASH has to be the top layer of
E>a web page and also how would you code the EMBED statement?  Then I
E>thought I'd ask here as CSS is still fairly new to me and maybe I'm
>missing something.

?Your first reaction was right. Unless you did something like :
a:hover object {display:none;}
Din which case you can probably hide/show flash content on rollover.
6I haven't tested and certainly do not recommend this.
FWhat's the point, when flash contains it's own rollover events which 
)are likely to give a much better result?
AIt would be nice to be able to have flash content as background 
Bimages 'tho. I can imagine this being egregiously misused but it 
;would be very handy for all sorts of great visual effects.

Geoff
;From moronicbajebus at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 28 14:48:36 2003
1From: moronicbajebus at yahoo.com (Seamus Leahy)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:48:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
AMessage-ID: <20030428134836.91265.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com>


.--- tarquin <tarquin@planetunreal.com> wrote:
,> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?

7I think the -moz rules were created for effects in the
3user interface of Mozilla because XUL (the Mozilla
interface) uses CSS. 



#__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
/The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Mon Apr 28 14:51:43 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:51:43 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234F@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

!> div {height: 20px;} /*IE win*/
?> html>body div {min-height:20px; height:auto;} /*all others*/

EBut that doesn't solve my problem with IE on Mac. I have no problems
with
8getting it to work for IE on PC and all other browsers.

DThe only one that it doesn't work in is in IE on Mac, which doesn't
understand min-height,
Ghence it doesn't get the element to expand its size accordingly to the
!text, not even with height:auto.


/Robert
U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [179]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:12:39 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052FE@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

7> The only one that it doesn't work in is in IE on Mac


My bad...
8Using height:auto and line-height solved the problem...

/Robert
8From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Mon Apr 28 15:48:12 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:48:12 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] Redesign Problem
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C7420F@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

LI have got a problem with a redesign and am wondering if anyone can help me
out.

MI have a class that defines the look of a div and I apply it to each section
Cof the navigation bar on the left.  Oddly enough, the border color
Dcharacteristics are not being displayed on the home page (the other
Lcharacteristics do work), but do work on other pages.  The code "should" be
Lthe same, with the exception of no active "Home" link on the home page (the
Monly real code difference I can tell is that the other pages are being drawn
Kvia an include statement, but doing so on the home page still exhibits the

problem).

HThe home page is located at http://test.usna.com/, and if you click the
MEvents link you will see how it should be displayed.  I've looked and looked
Kat this and just can't figure out why the home page is not being displayed

properly.

Thanks for looking -

george
U13:43:45.466 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [180]
=================
3From: christopher at christopher.org (Christopher)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:24:18 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] ANNC: 50+ Headings
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052FE@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
9Message-ID: <BAD2BFE2.10978%christopher@christopher.org>

	Hi, all,

@Headings in Web pages--marked up with h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, or h6
Melements=8B-help the reader determine the purpose of sections in content. It
Halso does one other thing: it helps the reader judge if the material is
something they want to read.

JThe only problem is that the default rendering of those headings is often
visually bland.

KIn order to help people create better designed headings, I've released the
KCSS resource, 50+ Headings, where you can see up to fifty headings designs
and their variations.

JYou can submit their own heading variations as well--which represents the
"plus" in the title.

3< http://www.cssbook.com/resources/css/headings/ >


Best,
Christopher Schmitt
?  Author, "Designing CSS Web Pages" -- http://www.cssbook.com/
>  Web Design Specialist -- http://www.christopherschmitt.com/
U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [181]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:35:36 -0700
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
CMessage-ID: <OFD278A69D.7CC3E6CA-ON88256D16.00545AA2@capgroup.com>


Joel Young wrote:

?> So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:
>
>       body {font-size: .7em}
>       td {font-size: .7em}
>
I> This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule
text
> that Superman couldn't read.
>
>
L> So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing

L> is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers -

> aren't they?....
>
$>       (no body styling this time)
>       td {font-size: .7em}
>
H> That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a
> strong pair of glasses.

Welcome, Joel!

There are two tricks here:

H1) IE does not inherit font sizes through the table tag, but the td tag
Ldoes inherit correctly. Instead of the body/td style combo above, try this:

    body {font-size: 70%}
    table {font-size: 100%}

JThis tells IE to inherit the font size through the table, which will then
Eallow the td fonts to size correctly. It also doesn't cause any side
Leffects in more compliant browsers, because 100% of 100% is, well, 100%. If
Lyou have reasons to change font sizes for specific td's, this also lets you
Gdo so without worrying about clobbering the browser compatibility fix.

H2) Jason Estes mentioned the issue with setting font sizes in ems -- it
Icauses IE to do strange things when the browser is set to anything other
Lthan "Medium". I can't agree more strongly, with respect with the body font
Hsize. Basically, IE will misbehave if you use ems as the font-size that
2everything else is relative to, so something like

    body {font-size: 0.7em}
    cite {font-size: 0.9em}

Kwill shrink to unreadable proportions. If, however, you set your outermost
Lfont-size using percents, you can then make all other font sizes in ems, if
2you prefer reading them that way. In other words,

    body {font-size: 70%}
    cite (font-size: 0.9em}

will behave correctly.

HTH,

MikeL
U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [182]
=================
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:46:41 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
5In-Reply-To: <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
P	<004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL> <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>
/Message-ID: <3EAD4CE1.9010008@star-chaser.com>

Jens Grochtdreis wrote:
	> Hi Al,
> 
> 
>>Here're a couple more:
G>>http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
>>problematic on Mac)
> 
> 
O> sorry to disappoint you, but your menue doesn't work as intended on MSIE 5.0
L> on W2k. The menue just scrolls with the rest of the page. no fixed menue.
> unfortunately.
> 
> greetings from germany,
> 
> Jens Grochtdreis

@Why not take the time to read the material before posting? The 
Cinformation on the page makes no mention of it working in IE5 Win.

<quote>
B"It will work as intended in MSIE5-MAC, MSIE6-PC, Netscape 6.2+, 
GNetscape 7, Mozilla 1x, and Opera5+. It will degrade nicely in lesser 
browsers."
	</quote>

Gary

U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [183]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:13:50 -0400
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
*In-Reply-To: <oprob9llpayoq9u9@localhost>
5Message-ID: <BAD2CB7E.53E2B%chris@placenamehere.com>

Bon 4/28/03 8:13 AM, Rijk van Geijtenbeek at rijk@opera.com wrote:

> 
J> For both 1, 2 and 3 it is important that the page doesn't depend on the
J> non-standard property to be useful and good looking. But even when they
L> don't cause problems in other browsers, it is best to avoid such features
M> if you want to build robust public pages. Even in category 1, the property
L> might change a bit before it gets into the standard, and it might be also
M> problematic when someone else has to take over the maintainance of a page.

EI'd like reiterate the point about "change a bit" as there's nothing
Dstopping the VND in question not for changing the property at will.

FI'll take the -moz- extensions as an example. Those that are there to
Fprovide an implementation of the spec before its a recommendation are
Iexpected to change. Because the spec may change there is no promise of a
Ldirect translation from "-moz-property" to "property". When "property" gets
Gfinalized and support is in the browser -moz-property and property may
Iactually conflict so if you think you're smart by sneaking "property" in
Itheir for forward compatibility expect to have to edit your pages anyway
=(although I don't know what the odds of this happening are).

LThere is no promise of backwards compatibility within the extension itself.
A real example this time:

MThere was once a time before bug 195883 where -moz-opacity would accept both
D%age units and floating point values between 0 & 1. Well, we're now
Apost-195883 and %ages don't work anymore. Sucks to be anyone who
Kexperimented with them in the past only to have long forgotten demos break
(me included).

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [184]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:55:36 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>

�Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.

! 1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
 3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
 4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
 5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
/From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Apr 28 17:55:50 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:55:50 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304280947420.26619-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

4On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Ian Hickson (that's me) wrote:
+> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
>>
B>> The only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is
D>> "screen", so /technically/ other media types would never see the
>> embedded @media stuff.
>
I> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has delegated
I> authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS working group, who has
*> decided to change the default to "all".
>
G> Unfortunately I can't find a public reference to this decision. I'll
> look into it.

0I've found a formal reference to this decision:

c   http://hades.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/voyager-issues/HTML-4.01?id=528;expression=screen;user=guest

EThat's the relevant entry in the HTML working group issues database.

HTH,
-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
4From afternoon at uk2.net  Mon Apr 28 18:15:24 2003
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:15:24 +0100
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
;Message-ID: <000B1247-799D-11D7-88C8-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


DObviously this is not the complete answer, but I've had my copy of 
2Safari confused for the mythical NS 5 before now.

Ben


FOn Monday, Apr 28, 2003, at 17:55 Europe/London, Bill Creswell wrote:

G> Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is 
I> that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.
>
">  1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91
!>  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33
 >  3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10
>  4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8
>  5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7
>
> Bill Creswell
> Helpdesk/Webmaster
> Van Eerden Distribution
> http://www.vaneerden.com
> (616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [185]
=================
+From: dnelson at netbank.com (Dave Nelson)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:02:07 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OMessage-ID: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBA5@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>

KI think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 6.1
0was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x

-----Original Message-----
2From: Bill Creswell [mailto:BillC@VanEerden.com] 
&Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 12:56 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?


IWebtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that
Btracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.

! 1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
 3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
 4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
 5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
5From me at chrismcleod.net  Mon Apr 28 19:21:28 2003
+From: me at chrismcleod.net (Chris McLeod)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:21:28 +0100
ISubject: [css-d] a div that is at least the full height of the window...
FMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030428185406.00b18cd0@mail.qawebhosting.com>

MI've been trying to create a ALA style layout for a site template. This bit 
Jis all simple enough... However, I need the main content area to stretch 
Hthe full height of the window at the very least. The content area is a 
Mdifferent colour from the page background, and it looks a bit silly as just 
a block in the upper corner.

JI've tried height and min-height equal to 100% or auto, but neither have 
Cworked at all, if the positioning is done with floats or relative 
Kpositioning. If I set the positioning to absolute, it works but it forces 
-scroll bars, which is obviously undesirable.

LIs it possible to have a floated div fill the entire height of the window? 
KOr will I have to create the effect using a background image (which is my 
backup plan...)


Thanks,


Chris.
U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [186]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:26:41 +0100
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
0Message-ID: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>

HIs there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without 
%having to specifically overide them?

GWe are doing some work on a content management system interface where 
Jstyles have already been applied to selectors such as <p> and we want to 
C  "reset" them for certain situations without editing the default 
stylesheet.

Be.g. if the styles already applied in the default stylesheet are 
something like:-

)p {font-size:2em;color:red;margin:20px;}

:and in our custom interface we want to use something like

G#mystyle p {(ignore all styles already applied to p without overiding 
them one by one)}
U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [187]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:51:15 -0500
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
0References: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
7Message-ID: <003901c30db7$25e162d0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

I> Is there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without
'> having to specifically overide them?


MYou can use the specificity in CSS to override the values.  So if the values
)are originally set with p {declarations}
Jyou can use body p{declarations} which has a higher specificity.  You can
3replace body with whatever the parent selector is.

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [188]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:41:56 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>

L>I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 6.1
1>was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x

{Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4 (which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent string).\

Bill
<From svendtofte at svendtofte.com  Mon Apr 28 20:01:35 2003
1From: svendtofte at svendtofte.com (Svend Tofte)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:01:35 +0200
<Subject: SV: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
8In-Reply-To: <003901c30db7$25e162d0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
EMessage-ID: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>

JYou'd still have to override all the individual rules, no? Otherwise they
would cascade in.

D> You can use the specificity in CSS to override the values.  So if
> the values
+> are originally set with p {declarations}
L> you can use body p{declarations} which has a higher specificity.  You can
5> replace body with whatever the parent selector is.
U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [189]
=================
#From: ksoh at colby.edu (Karen Oh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:18:15 -0400
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
8In-Reply-To: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
7References: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
6Message-ID: <a05111b0dbad32e3aed12@[137.146.196.147]>


(>http://blogstreetjournal.com/index.php

Hi,
 not sure if you got feedback. .

Mac OS 9.2

IE5
Fonts are teeny
D3-column layout, 1st and 2nd col touch, 2nd and 3rd do not (have a 
little gutter between them).

02nd col is not vertically aligned with 1 and 3.

NN4.7
:Not that legible--degrades poorly, overlapping text, etc.

NN7
;Looks Great! (Fonts may be a little bigger. . . like 12px)

hth,
karen
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Mon Apr 28 20:19:31 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:19:31 -0500
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
7Message-ID: <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> You'd still have to override all the individual rules, no? Otherwise they
> would cascade in.
>


2In the original email he said they were set up as

p {declarations}

and wanted something like

#mysite p {declarations}

Kbut instead of applying an ID which would require modifying the markup, he
could just use a selector like

J#wrapper p {declarations} where #wrapper is already the <div> surrounding
Mthe content area. of if he wanted to apply the styles to all the p's then he

could use

Dbody p {declarations} which would apply to all the p's on the page.

GIt's hard to account for specific circumstances of inheritance without
Iseeing the code though.  Maybe Rick could provide us some sample of what

he's got.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [190]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:16:29 -0400
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
1In-Reply-To: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
0References: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
4Message-ID: <17715762453.20030428151629@mrclay.org>

6Monday, April 28, 2003, 2:26:41 PM, Rick Hurst wrote:
LRH> Is there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without 
)RH> having to specifically overide them?

BNo, *however*, you can use a copy of Mozilla's HTML.css file (the
Gbrowser's default stylesheet) as a guide to help you return properties
Cto their original values.  If you know a property was set and that
;property can have a value of "inherit", set it to inherit.

JRH> We are doing some work on a content management system interface where
%RH> styles have already been applied

GIf a stylesheet is out of your control, it's out of your control.  You
Ecan disable a stylesheet with javascript, but this isn't a solution.
FYour situation is similar to writing a user stylesheet - In your case
Hthe author is your CMS.  The only way is to redefine all the properties
you need control over.

FThis is another good reason to write stylesheets to take advantage of
Dinheritance.  It easier for everyone to write stylesheets to extend
the existing one.

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [191]
=================
0From: lists at dramatic.co.nz (Richard Grevers)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:45:36 +1200
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>
IReferences: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>
)Message-ID: <oprocuiajczs1r4a@localhost>

IOn Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:41:56 -0400, Bill Creswell <BillC@VanEerden.com> 
!gave utterance to the following:

K>> I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 
>> 6.1
3>> was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x
>
J> Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4 
6> (which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent string).\
>
JOr any other Mozilla from around 0.5 onwards - False reports of Netscape 
:5.0 have been cropping up in stats for a year or two now.

-- 
HUsing M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
7From gary at star-chaser.com  Mon Apr 28 20:54:02 2003
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:54:02 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
IReferences: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
/Message-ID: <3EAD86DA.9090706@star-chaser.com>

Bill Creswell wrote:
�> Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.
> 
#>  1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
">  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
!>  3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
>  4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
>  5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 
> 
Elooks like your logs are identifying Mozilla as Netscape, All gecko 
Fbased browsers id themselves as mozilla/5.0 unless they have been re 
Ibranded. you have to look at the whole string to determine what browser 
it is.

example netscape 7.0 string
CMozilla/5.0 (windows; U; NT4.0; en-us) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0

A mozilla string
:  Mozilla/5.001 (windows; U; NT4.0; en-us) Gecko/25250101

IIf they have been re branded then they will still use Mozilla and gecko 
in their string.

C  Mozilla/9.876 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i686, en) Gecko/25250101 
 Netscape/5.432b1 (C-MindSpring)


HTH
Gary


Gary Bland
StarChaser Web Architecture
http://star-chaser.com
 Building Tomorrow's World Today
U13:43:45.467 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [192]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:08:15 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
(In-Reply-To: <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>
GReferences: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com> <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>
,Message-ID: <3EAD8A2F.4080603@exclupen.com>

Tony Bounds wrote:

> Marshall,
J> On ie5.1.5mac the 'GO' button is shifted underneath the input field on 
L> your search form. Also, the background is missing to the left of the top 
H> banner leaving a blank white space. The ticker is missing completely.

4I'm at a loss to why that background isn't working.

 This was the rule for that div:


#header {
padding-right: 10px;
9background: url('images/logo_bg.gif') top left repeat-x;
text-align: right;
}

8I just changed the 's to "s, let me know if that helps.

K> On ns7.02mac the ticker is overlayed atop the blue 'Fantasy Blog Shares 
L> Market' rule and is unreadable. It also takes up so many cpu cycles that 
;> its making typing this creep along slowly and painfully.

GI don't know what to do about that ticker... It's from DevEdge[1], but
Hit doesn't work very well in Netscape anyway.  To get it to stay inside
Ethe width that I need it, I had to set it absolutely inside the main
Fcolumn div, which has margins the size of the left and right columns.
IHowever, it was overlapping the title (BlogShares - Blah blah blah) so I
?gave it a top: -20px; which causes that overlap of the logo in
0Opera7/Win too.  Any ideas on what to do there?

II'm not sure what to do about the slowness of it.. Does anyone know of a
Ecross-browser ticker that uses HTML to store the content (instead of
embedding it in a JS)?

--
Marshall Roch

D[1] http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/examples/2001/stock-ticker/


U13:43:45.468 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [193]
=================
2From: cicero2002 at centrum.cz (bill shakespeare)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:16:25 +0200
"Subject: [css-d] Redesign Problem
@Message-ID: <20030428201632Z317121-615+143500@mail2.centrum.cz>


George,

EThere are many, many "deep-water mines" concealed from an untrained 
Beye in your code.  Incidentally, whatever happened to those mine 
Gsniffing dolphins, plowing the waters of the Gulf ?  The last I heard 
-of them was a week or so into the Operation.

Problemo Uno:

FYour front page sports a different doctype from that of Events.htm.  
4Believe it or not, I may make a helluva difference.

Problemo Due:

0Your front page sports, furthermore, this line:

,<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>

GI recommend tossing it out.  Most of the time it's more of a nuisance 
6than a benefit.  It may send IE6/Win into a tailspin.

Problemo Tre:

AThe best practice calls for introducing a stylesheet before any 
JavaScript.

DRectifying the problems does not guarantee a desired effect.  Yet, 
it's a very good start.


--------------------
�Vyhrajte kuchy� za 200 000 K�, leteck� z�jezd a dal�� zaj�mav� ceny! Z��astn�te se �ten��sk� ankety IDE�LN� MU� na http://zena.centrum.cz/ideal


U13:43:45.468 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [194]
=================
5From: incoming at kubaton.com (incoming@kubaton.com)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:42:39 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
KMessage-ID: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>

,Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?

http://riotgrrrl.com/

GThe "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
Jhaving it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
Icouldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?

_Lea
U13:43:45.468 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [195]
=================
.From: csslist at theparagon.org ({ schaapy })
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:01:39 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
LIn-Reply-To: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
3Message-ID: <BAD30EF3.1F95%csslist@theparagon.org>



I would do something like:


#header {
    height: 15px;
}

#header.letters {
    float: left;
}



<div id="header">
!    <div class="letters">r</div>
!    <div class="letters">i</div>
!    <div class="letters">o</div>
!    <div class="letters">t</div>
</div>


IGive each letter a transparent background - this will let you change the
'color of the top bar if you so choose.

------------------------------
Aaron Schaap
www.theparagon.org

+They tell me the internet never sleeps ...
1... Evidently, that means I don't get to either.

> From: <incoming@kubaton.com>
(> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:42:39 -0400
.> To: "'Css-D'" <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
?> Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
> 
.> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
> 
> http://riotgrrrl.com/
> 
I> The "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
L> having it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
K> couldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?
> 
> _Lea
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 
U13:43:45.468 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [196]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:13:30 -0500
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
7Message-ID: <008301c30dcb$050b1380$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>


.> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
>
> http://riotgrrrl.com/
>
I> The "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
L> having it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
K> couldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?


LHere you go, I couldn't tell if it worked perfectly cause I didn't have the
+images, but looks ok from what I can tell.

A<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//Ddiv HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>
<head>
" <title>Untitled Document</title>
J <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
=   <link href="global.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
   <style type="text/css">
    body {
    margin:0;
    padding:0;
}
   .piece {
    text-align:center;
 width:6%;
; background-image:url(images/top/background.png) repeat-x;
 float:left;
 }
   .heading2 {
    clear:both;
 }
   </style>


</head>

<body>

<div id="topbanner">
K  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/left.png" width="16" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/i.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/o.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/t.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/g.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r2.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r3.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r4.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/l.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
J  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/dot.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/c.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/o2.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/m.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
L  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/right.png" width="16" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
</div>

7<p class="heading2">New &amp; Improved Coming Soon</p>

</body>

</html>

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


U13:43:45.468 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [197]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:13:32 -0400
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
CReferences: <OFD278A69D.7CC3E6CA-ON88256D16.00545AA2@capgroup.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAD997C.4DB1@ij.net>

#Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
 
> Joel Young wrote:
 
A> > So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:

!> >       body {font-size: .7em}
> >       td {font-size: .7em}

P> > This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule text
!> > that Superman couldn't read.

N> > So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing

N> > is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers -

> > aren't they?....

&> >       (no body styling this time)
> >       td {font-size: .7em}

J> > That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a
> > strong pair of glasses.
 
> There are two tricks here:
 
J> 1) IE does not inherit font sizes through the table tag, but the td tag
N> does inherit correctly. Instead of the body/td style combo above, try this:
 
>     body {font-size: 70%}
>     table {font-size: 100%}
 
L> This tells IE to inherit the font size through the table, which will then
G> allow the td fonts to size correctly. It also doesn't cause any side
N> effects in more compliant browsers, because 100% of 100% is, well, 100%. If
N> you have reasons to change font sizes for specific td's, this also lets you
I> do so without worrying about clobbering the browser compatibility fix.
 
J> 2) Jason Estes mentioned the issue with setting font sizes in ems -- it
K> causes IE to do strange things when the browser is set to anything other
N> than "Medium". I can't agree more strongly, with respect with the body font
J> size. Basically, IE will misbehave if you use ems as the font-size that
4> everything else is relative to, so something like
 
>     body {font-size: 0.7em}
>     cite {font-size: 0.9em}
 
M> will shrink to unreadable proportions. If, however, you set your outermost
N> font-size using percents, you can then make all other font sizes in ems, if
4> you prefer reading them that way. In other words,
> 
>     body {font-size: 70%}
>     cite (font-size: 0.9em}
> 
> will behave correctly.

ISince Matthew Davey started the ems or percent? thread over the weekend,
FI've been playing around with IE6 off and on trying to understand the
@pattern. NAICT so far, and using standards mode exclusively, IE
Dmisbehaves on font-size inheritance under more conditions than just
.tables. I just haven't found the pattern yet.

HFor example, at http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ie/IE6tB.html, which
Ehas only two font-size rules applied to the whole page (table=100% &
Gtd=.8em), upon setting IE6 to "smaller" and Gecko to 13px, the first 6
Enon-blank rows (1 apparent paragraph) display the same font sizes in
2both Gecko and IE, since all are specified in px.

AThe next apparent paragraph (3 rows) match the first two rows at
I13px=medium and 12px=small. In the next row, Gecko shows x-small at 10px
3(leaving 9px for xx-small), while IE drops to 9px.

HThe 3rd apparent paragraph (3 rows) shows matches only in the first row
Hat 13px=medium. The next two rows exhibit the mis-sizing problem in IE,
Iwhile they display as expected in Gecko, which correctly applies .8em to
Athe 2nd row and .8emX.8em=.64em to the third row. Note that this
Fparagraph is three nested divs, no tables, and yet what IE appears to
Ehave done is apply .8emX.8em to row two, and .8emX.8emX.8em=.51em or
(.8emX.8emX.8emX.8em=.41em to row three.

FNext 2 paragraphs/rows are simply for reference for what follows, but
Enote that .8em is smaller in IE, even though the default is the same
13px.

FLast, is a three row table, with another table in the 2nd row. Again,
EGecko renders exactly as expected. In contrast, IE, which supposedly
Ifubars em text sizing *too small* if a % size is not set in body or html
Fand not set in prefs to medium, displays the first two rows, sized in
(ems, *larger* than Gecko. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
U13:43:45.475 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [198]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:26:14 -0500
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
3References: <BAD30EF3.1F95%csslist@theparagon.org>
7Message-ID: <008901c30dcc$cc8789b0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

>
> I would do something like:
>
> #header {
>     height: 15px;
> }
>
> #header.letters {
>     float: left;
> }
>
>
>
> <div id="header">
#>     <div class="letters">r</div>
#>     <div class="letters">i</div>
#>     <div class="letters">o</div>
#>     <div class="letters">t</div>
	> </div>

JThe only problem with this is that you didn't explicitly set the width of
Ethe letters, which is required for floats.  That is until CSS 2.1 is
Jfinalized.  If you use this without explicit declaration of width it will
@break in IE 5.x on the mac, most other browsers will display it
appropriately..


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org



U13:43:45.475 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [199]
=================
*From: andrewyao at yahoo.com (Andrew Yao)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
AMessage-ID: <20030428224834.33497.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com>


Hi Folks,

7There is a subtle effect with both solutions presented
2so far: when you resie the browser width so it is
7smaller than the combined width of all the images, the
7banner will wrap into multiple lines.. I don't know if
this is the desired effect.

-I propose to use multiple spans in a div and
white-space:nowrap 

<html>
	<head>
#		<title>Untitled Document</title>
		<style type="text/css">
			#topbanner {
				white-space:nowrap;
5				background-image:url(images/top/background.png);
 				background-repeat:repeat-x;
			}
			#topbanner span {
				width:6%;
			}
		</style>
		</head>
	<body>
		<div id="topbanner">
3			<span><img src="images/top/left.png" width="16"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/r.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/i.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/o.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/t.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/g.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r2.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r3.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r4.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/l.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
2			<span><img src="images/top/dot.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/c.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/o2.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/m.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
4			<span><img src="images/top/right.png" width="16"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
			</div>
		</body>
</html>

cheers

Andrew

#__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
/The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
3From steve at mrclay.org  Tue Apr 29 00:20:41 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:20:41 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
LIn-Reply-To: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
5Message-ID: <156730414296.20030428192041@mrclay.org>

@Monday, April 28, 2003, 4:42:39 PM, incoming@kubaton.com wrote:
1ikc> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
ikc> http://riotgrrrl.com/

+Fun stuff.  http://mrclay.org/secret/riot/
EThis uses all spans and background-images, so no messy imgs or block
2containers in markup.  A min-width prevents wrap.

Moz/Opera7: works great.
'IE6: fine, but right piece is missing.
Others: shudder to imagine.

?Since this is all basically presentational markup, I'd make an
9average-sized img and put it in a noscript element, then
Gdocument.write in all this markup from an external .js file.  At least
3you'll have cleaner documents and the mess cached.

EOr you might experiment with an img stretched horizontally with CSS,
Cit might not look as tight, but would be much cleaner and possibly
more reliable:

G<img (left piece) /><img style="width:80%" ... /><img (right piece) />

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
U13:43:45.476 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [200]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:36:12 +0100
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
6In-Reply-To: <156730414296.20030428192041@mrclay.org>
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
@ <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
3Message-ID: <l03130317bad36b51335b@[192.168.0.36]>

2>ikc> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
>ikc> http://riotgrrrl.com/
>
,>Fun stuff.  http://mrclay.org/secret/riot/

LWow, looks like everyone's stepped up to the bat on this one - mine's not a
Imillion miles from Steve's though I think mine is just that bit sleeker.
JHowever, what with the embarrassment of riches now on display, I can't be
Abothered to finish it but I think the proof of concept is there.

6<http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/cssjunk/Riotgirl.mhtml>

LOf course, I'd junk the images as text and just justify the text but that's
just me...



U13:43:45.476 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [201]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:33:52 EDT
+Subject: [css-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <1ea.79417d2.2bdf2270@aol.com>

@In a message dated 4/28/2003 1:36:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ironmike@inav.net writes:


I> <.bold> Is this bold in your reader? <.h2>It should be in regular text

OI think it's fine, but I don't think it will be picked up by the rest of this 
List.

MI am interested in the list you refer to. If you could send some info on it 
Mto me, I'd appreciate being able to check it out. Thanks for the suggestion.


Curt
8From holnkids at netscape.net  Tue Apr 29 03:47:36 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:47:36 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
6Message-ID: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>

1Webapprentice <webapprentice@onemain.com> wrote:

,>http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html
>
I>The middle white area, where there is a link to "See the style sheet," 
L>is not stretched all the way. �I'd like to stretch the white area so it 
@>almost reaches the right white area but not colliding with it.
>
D>I've tried "width: auto" and "width: 100%," but this doesn't work.

qHi Stephen - You have a couple of options here, and which you chose may depend on what else you put on the page.

�To use absolute positioning as currently written on the div#contentarea and get the browsers to expand a greater distance than the short amount of text you have in there now, specifiy a width for #contentarea. You might choose your min-width value for this. Depending on the browser size and/or screen resolution of your user, the gap will be wider or narrower (or non-existant) with this method. I suspect that this probably isn't what you want to have to deal with.

�Another option is to use relative positioning instead, and use right margining to set the distance away from the right border, much like you already have. This will allow the div#contentarea to expand the full width of the area available, as long as it is greater than the min-width you have set. You will also have to adjust the top position, and you shouldn't need the width property at all. 

#contentarea {
 � �other: styles;
( � �position: relative;/* change */
4 � �top: 46px; � � � �/* change also */
6 � �/*width: auto;*/ /* probably not necessary */

�The min-width property will keep the #contentarea from collapsing beyond the value you have set as the browser narrows, but the #rightnavarea will slide on top of the #contentarea as the browser is narrowed beyond the min-width (except in IE-win which doesn't recognize min-width). If you want that middle column fluid in all browsers, remove the min-width property.

HTH,

~holly




C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
<From webapprentice at onemain.com  Tue Apr 29 05:02:46 2003
3From: webapprentice at onemain.com (Webapprentice)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:02:46 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
7In-Reply-To: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>
6References: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>
+Message-ID: <3EADF966.6080700@onemain.com>


Hi Holly,
Thank you for the quick reply.

IYou are correct that absolute positioning + min-width was not the way I 
Hwanted go.  I  wanted the middle column to be fluid, much like the old 
/HTML table hack of setting a td width to 100%.

HYour second option of relative positioning intrigued me.  I have never 
Dquite gotten that to behave properly, so I've always used absolute 
9positioning.  I had a lot of problems trying to combine 
Hrelatively-positioned elements with absolutely-positioned elements.  I 
,probably don't understand page flow enough.

FI've employed your relatively-positioned idea, and it works.  I must 
Hhave been very close to solving my problem, since I only had to change 
3two properties for #contentarea, position and top.

+http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html

<I'm kind of amazed that relatively-positioned elements and 
.absolutely-positioned elements can cooperate.

5I have to examine relative positioning more closely.

Thank you Holly.

Sincerely,
Stephen
U13:43:45.476 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [202]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:01:46 +0100
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
8In-Reply-To: <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
,	<005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
,Message-ID: <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>

Jason Estes wrote:

4> In the original email he said they were set up as
> 
> p {declarations}
> 
> and wanted something like
> 
> #mysite p {declarations}

DI probably wasn't being specific enough - i'll explain the set-up:-

IThere are two templates involved - one CMS admin template which already 
Ehas a stylesheet attached (and needs to stay attached), and we have 
Eattached our own additional stylesheet and one public site template 
Fwhich has just our style sheet. Within the admin template you create 
J"inner templates" such as "news item" which are inserted into the public 
Gsite template, but the problem is when you try to preview these inner 
Jtemplates within the admin template, they also inherit the global styles 
from the admin style sheet.

GThe admin style sheet has rules defined for p, h1, h2 etc and so does 
Iour public style sheet, and although we can redefine each of these rule 
Fby rule, this means we would need to add loads of extra rules to our 
(public style sheet to catch everything.

JI was trying to find a way to stop the inheritance for everything within 
Ba particular div without having to overide the styles one by one.

Hope thats clearer!
U13:43:45.476 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [203]
=================
.From: andy at webprojects.co.uk (Andy Walker)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:48:42 +0100
4Subject: [css-d] IE6  absolute positioning problems
3Message-ID: <002f01c30e23$c2a8ea40$c501a8c0@holly>

$Looks fine in everything except IE6

&I was using an ie6 - specific hack...

G#leftsidebar {position: absolute; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 140px; =
-background-color: white; text-align: right;}
@/* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
0* html #leftsidebar { /*\*/ left:-150px; /* */}

EThis worked fine, but in IE 5.0, it positioned the sidebar off the =
left-hand edge of the page.

I have changed it to...

G#leftsidebar {position: absolute; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 140px; =
-background-color: white; text-align: right;}
@/* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
-* html #leftsidebar { /*\*/ left:0px; /* */}

K...for the purposes of testing in ie 5.0, but the menu's now incorrectly =
positioned in ie6

&http://www.webprojects.co.uk/csslist/

any ideas?
DFrom Andreas.Reuterberg at staff.spray.se  Tue Apr 29 09:55:40 2003
@From: Andreas.Reuterberg at staff.spray.se (Andreas Reuterberg)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:55:40 +0200
6Subject: [css-d] 2 columns centered but unkown width?
FMessage-ID: <8E9E6E8B6A579344999D9B303F0B3B2D306312@safir.i.spray.se>

FI have a slight problem. I know how to solve it but I would like an =
Ieasier alternative. I have two columns, one of them is 200px wide (for =
Bexample) and the other one is sometimes 200px and sometimes 0px =
I(shouldn't be shown). The problem is that these two columns need to be =
Hcentered on the page and to do that I need to put them in a <div> and =
Kset that width to the width of them both together. But I need to get rid =
Gof that set width (300px) because the content in the right column is =
Hthere sometimes and sometimes it's not (it contains a banner). I know =
6how to do this with tables but.. Well, tables suck :)

9Can anyone help me? This is a short example of the code:

$<body style=3D"text-align:center;">
0	<div style=3D"width:300px; border:1px solid;">
H		<div style=3D"float:left; width:200px; border:1px solid;">200px</div>
;		<div style=3D"float:left; border:1px solid;">100px</div>
	</div>
</body>


Andreas
;From knaepkens.luc at pandora.be  Tue Apr 29 11:51:27 2003
(From: knaepkens.luc at pandora.be (Luc)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:51:27 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] IE and the fixed position
3Message-ID: <1448902190.20030429125127@pandora.be>

 Good afternoon list,      

B I read up on http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/ to make the fixed
B position work in IE but i seem to have a serious brain damage: i
 can't get it to work.

 My testpage:

@ http://users.pandora.be/luc_test/Projecten/Test/Pages/Test.htm

 sheet:

7 http://users.pandora.be/luc_test/Stylesheets/test.css

C The top banner and left nav should be fixed (Opera does it) but i
D can't get it fixed in IE.  Could some of you kind souls explain me
A how to implement the devnull hack or provide me the code for my
0 project so i can try and figger it out myself?
 
-- 
Best regards,
 Luc
---------------------------------------------
APowered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build
E2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera.

A"Acting is just a way of making a living, the family is life." -
Denzel Washington (1954-____).
---------------------------------------------

U13:43:45.476 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [204]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:54:15 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B90@vec01.vaneerden.com>

>>Here're a couple more:
G>>http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
>>problematic on Mac)

~Caution to all: If you use this, remember that (800x600 Firebird) I can't do anything to make the bottom of the menu visible.

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
 
U13:43:45.476 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [205]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:11:39 -0400
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
-In-Reply-To: <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
L <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH> <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
4Message-ID: <56127789375.20030429071139@mrclay.org>

1Tuesday, April 29, 2003, 2:01:46 AM, Rick wrote:
CRH> when you try to preview these inner templates within the admin
GRH> template, they also inherit the global styles from the admin style
RH> sheet.

EOoooh, you're preview environment is basically corrupted by an admin
FCSS file that won't be there for the user, but you need /some/ of the
Fadmin rules to keep the CMS "chrome" nice during preview.  Here are a
Fcouple ideas for which you'll need a partial admin.css file with what
you don't want stripped out:

E1) Write a bookmarklet that disables link to admin.css and adds link
?to partialAdmin.css  You'd have to run this with every preview

F2) Temporarily replace admin.css with partialAdmin.css on the server.
FTry to tie the code to do this into the preview function of your CMS.

DIf partialAdmin.css can't be created, your dev team would just have
Eto live with the admin "chrome" being unstyled during preview.  Just
)/move/ or disable admin.css temporarily.

HTH,
Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
U13:43:45.476 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [206]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:24:48 +0100
FSubject: [css-d] Site check please... Global 3 Col Fluid CSS Template
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
L	<005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH> <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
)	<56127789375.20030429071139@mrclay.org>
2Message-ID: <00b501c30e4a$53696250$fd00a8c0@mike>

<I hope some kind folk can help with a site check... please!

IGiven recent discussions on this list, especially regarding em's v % and
Gbrowser compatibility/hacks, I decided to create global templates that
Laddress some regular issues. My aim is to create some sort of "Standard", a
Lgood starter for people to use which also explains how the page builds from
beginning to final design.

EThe first of these templates is for a 3 column, cross-browser, cross
Lplatform, standards compliant, table-less, fluid page. The first-draft home
page is at
Khttp://www.china-and-west.com/cssTemps/layout1_3col/three_col_home.htm and
its layout is at
Lhttp://www.china-and-west.com/cssTemps/layout1_3col/three_col_testbasic.htm
K. The layout test page is a bit messy but there so the code is seen at the
"place of relevance in the layout.

II would appreciate site checks on as many platforms as possible. To save
Jcluttering the list with replies I would appreciate a direct reply unless
:there are issues which may be of design relevance to all.

MOne intention is to fully comment both the CSS and page, so commentary is as
 important as design competence.

KI need the type of templates I am designing. At the same time I considered
Gthey should be available to all, thus saving re-invention and enabling
Hdesigners (especially those new to CSS) to grasp some issues constantly
Gdiscussed on the list. I am happy to act as a conduit (do the work) to
Kbenefit others. If, when finished, someone wants to put these templates on
Mtheir own CSS-help sites or in publications then okay, so long as this helps
towards good design standards.

KWhen this one's complete I intend to produce fully commented templates for
J2-column, photo album, and E-book pages. I'll add more if I'm not totally
exhausted after that!

Many thanks!

Mike A
Edinburgh, Scotland
4malaja@malaja.f9.co.uk (preferred for this subject)
mike@china-and-west.com
T. 00 44 31 664 6604
U13:43:45.476 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [207]
=================
5From: ehmer at pacific.net.au (David & Angela Ehmer)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:49:00 +1000
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3Message-ID: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>

JAppreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
Hdetail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
explained examples.

Thanks
David
U13:43:45.476 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [208]
=================
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:58:56 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
4Message-ID: <007301c30e4f$1b61def0$d201a8c0@jenspc>


Hi David,

Fmy favourite is "Eric Meyer on CSS" [http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/].
LIt is full of advanced CSS-Stuff which you only can understand, if you have
a little bit of CSS-practice.

DAnd I hope, there will be a 2nd Edition of his "normal" CSS-Book at

O'Reilly.

Greetings from Germany,

Jens
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [209]
=================
#From: ksoh at colby.edu (Karen Oh)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:13:04 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
4In-Reply-To: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
6Message-ID: <a05111b09bad42a3626b7@[137.146.196.147]>

(I got Eric Meyer's "Eric Meyer on CSS."

CIt's decent if you are interested in learning CSS from the start. 
CEach chapter is an case study of a design and he shows you how to 
Ccreate that design using CSS with step by step instructions. Good 
2beginner tutorial book, but not a reference book.

GIf you want a reference type of book that gives crude examples (boxes 
Eand text mainly, nothing designed or whatnot), the O'Reilly book on 
.CSS is a good base. That's how I am learning.

$Plus, there's tons of stuff online.

HTH
Karen


K>Appreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
I>detail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
>explained examples.
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Tue Apr 29 14:31:36 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:31:36 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
7Message-ID: <001701c30e53$a8dfa790$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> Appreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
J> detail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
> explained examples.


MI too have "Eric Meyer on CSS" and I think it's a fantastic tool.  It starts
Ewith simple pages in tables and progresses through entire pages done
Lstrictly with CSS.  It delves into a few of the finer points of CSS which I
Mthink is great, plus there are online files you can download to "play along"
Hwith the book, which is infinitely more helpful than just reading text.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [210]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:58:03 -0700
4Subject: [css-d] IE6  absolute positioning problems
CMessage-ID: <OFF0EE69DE.6470F02F-ON88256D17.004BAB72@capgroup.com>


@[n.b.: I've reformatted the styles for folks whose mail readers
automatically wrap text...]

Andy wrote:

(> I was using an ie6 - specific hack...

> #leftsidebar {
>   position: absolute;
>   left: 0px;
>   top: 0px;
>   width: 140px;
>   background-color: white;
>   text-align: right;
> }
B> /* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
> * html #leftsidebar {

>   /*\*/
>   left:-150px;

>   /* */
> }

JI've seen that hack identified for hiding properties in Mac IE 5, but not

IE 6. Try

* html #leftsidebar {
	   /*\*/
   lef\t:-150px;
	   /* */
}

FThis assumes that Mac IE 5 works fine with left: 0px. The escaped "t"
Dcauses all IE versions except for 6.0 to ignore the style -- see "A
DModified SBMH" on http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BoxModelHack

GIf Mac IE needs the same fix, remove the comments. See Edwardson Tan's
great page on comment hacks at
Ihttp://www.info.com.ph/~etan/w3pantheon/style/commentbugs.html for other
variations.

HTH,

MikeL
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [211]
=================
9From: jazzsnot at optonline.net (jazzsnot@optonline.net)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:03:57 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
2Message-ID: <b4f13b2bfc.b2bfcb4f13@optonline.net>

�"Designing CSS Web Pages" is an amazing book, especially for design. It teaches you how to design pages properly and put CSS to use. It has made me think totally different after reading it. Highly recommended.

Roy
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [212]
=================
)From: gsam at trini0.org (Gerard Samuel)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:06:45 -0400
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
*Message-ID: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>

%Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
-With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
<<p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
=<div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
?<span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.

6Im just looking for verification on this observation.
HIf Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
to gain a "special" effect.

IFor example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not to 
use tables for layout.
IThe only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by line 
fashion is by ->
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
<div></div>
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

E(Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
:control the space between options, style the option text,
Gand if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
the form inputs.

(Thanks for any insight you may provide.
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [213]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:14:27 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] what is troubling IE6?
5Message-ID: <132787639953.20030429111427@mrclay.org>

FLea's layout made me think of the old Mad Fold-Ins, so I put together
=this in CSS: http://mrclay.org/junk/mad/ (narrow the window)

FI know IE doesn't have min/max widths, but I don't see where the rest
Dof this is failing.  The wider inside image seems to be missing (or
/rendering at width:0).  Any ideas to fix this?

(Everything is held by abs. positioning:

outer div:
?|--- img ---|--- inside span ---|--- img --- | (max-width set)
,   left:0;        left:95px;       right:0;
                  right:95px;
                  display:block;
inside span:
|---- img ----|
  width:100%;

Steve

'PS: Where I can get a funnier fold-in?
-- 
http://mrclay.org
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [214]
=================
+From: dnelson at netbank.com (Dave Nelson)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:14:18 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OMessage-ID: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBB4@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>

1Bill Creswell [mailto:BillC@VanEerden.com] said:

J>> I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of
6.1
3>> was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x
>
I> Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4
6(which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent > string).\
>
> Bill

JI downloaded and installed Netscape 6 from the evolt archive and if it is
Ethe same install from the initial release I was wrong. It is clearly
identified as Netscape 6

@userAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; m18)
Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0

-My own stats from AWStats so far this month:
23 million hits total
91% IE
 4% NS

Netscape5   250854
Netscape6.0   1832 
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [215]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:26:50 +0100
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
+In-Reply-To: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
;Message-ID: <FF8EE716-7A56-11D7-BCD5-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


E<span> and <div> are unstyled tags and contain no style properties, 
Cexcept that span is inline in it's display and div is block. This 
!creates the effect you describe.

B<p> on the other hand has more default properties. Commonly this 
@involves a margin or padding area equal in height to one line. 
IDifferent browsers define this standard style differently. IE PC places 
Gsome space above and below the text, Moz places it all below. You can 
&override this space with a rule like:

.p { margin:0; padding:0; margin-bottom:1em; }

FFor your example, I would recommend something along the lines of the 
following:

G<div class="f"> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /> 

bar</div>
H<div class="f" > <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /> 

bar</div>

And in your CSS:

.f { margin-bottom:1em; }

%Or whatever presentation you desire.

HTH,

Ben

H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

GOn Tuesday, Apr 29, 2003, at 16:06 Europe/London, Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
J> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
H> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not 
> to use tables for layout.
F> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by 
> line fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
>
G> (Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
<> control the space between options, style the option text,
I> and if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
> the form inputs.
>
*> Thanks for any insight you may provide.
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [216]
=================
+From: justin at get-put.com (justin braem)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:29:50 -0500
Subject: [css-d] align-bottom
?Message-ID: <6AAAFCBE-7A57-11D7-B8A8-000393C28C30@get-put.com>

?I'm new here, so my apologies if this has been covered before.

AIs there any way to align a div to the bottom of a page without 
8resorting to finding the window height with javascript?
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [217]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:18:02 -0700
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
CMessage-ID: <OFFD126CEE.4F42D79A-ON88256D17.00570F2F@capgroup.com>


Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
I> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
J> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not to
> use tables for layout.
J> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by line
> fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

KWelcome to the world of CSS, Gerard! It sounds like you are also beginning
8to get into the world of structural (or semantic) HTML.

FBasically, each tag represents some type of information. <p> tags are
Ddesigned to represent paragraphs. Most browsers place space between
Kparagraphs to identify where it begins or ends. Some browsers put one full
Jline space between paragraphs, others place half a space. Either of these
$can be overridden with CSS, though.

J<div> and <span> tags are generic containers used to enclose content that
Ghas some common purpose. <div> tags are intended to represent discrete
Lblocks of information, while <span> tags are intended to represent specific
Linformation inside of a block. (More accurately, <div> tags are block-level
Gcontainers that typically create carriage returns, and <span> tags are
inline containers.)

JIn most circumstances, you would want to wrap information that belongs in
%its own block in <div> tags, so that

F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
<div></div>
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

becomes

8<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo"
/><span>bar</span></div>
8<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo"
/><span>bar</span></div>

KThis tells the browser that the label "bar" belongs with the checkbox as a
Jsingle unit. You can then apply CSS styles to the divs, to properly space
the blocks apart.

F<div> tags can also contain other block-level tags like <p> and other
F<div>s, but paragraphs can only contain non-block-level elements like
K<span>, <em>, etc. (If you consider <p> tags as representing paragraphs it
Jmakes some sense -- you might emphasize some text in a paragraph, but you
Ftypically wouldn't place a paragraph inside of another paragraph, for

example.)

IAnother enhancement you might consider is replacing the <span> tags with
J<label> tags. Inside forms, <label> tags permit you to add semantic value
Ito this text. You can associate labels with inputs, so that clicking the
Glabel highlights the input as well. As an example, you can rewrite the
above checkboxes as follows:

G<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" id="optionFoo" value="foo"
+/><label for="optionFoo">foo</label></div>
G<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" id="optionBar" value="bar"
+/><label for="optionBar">bar</label></div>

JAs long as the "for" attribute in the label matches the "id" attribute in
Jthe input, you can click the text and it will check/uncheck the checkbox.
HYou can style the label tag in the same way as you would've intended to
Kstyle the span tag. Also, the <label> tag more semantically represents the
purpose of this text.

EFor more information, check out the "Forms" section of the HTML 4.01
specification:

/http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html

JThis spec can also be useful (albeit a bit daunting at first) for finding
<out how W3C intended HTML to be put together in a document.

HTH,

MikeL
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [218]
=================
,From: scotts at rci-nv.com (Scott Schrantz)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:20:50 -0700
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
=Message-ID: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EE3B@SERVER1>

> -----Original Message-----
/> From: Gerard Samuel [mailto:gsam@trini0.org]
> 
'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
> 
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
@> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to 
(> use these to gain a "special" effect.

JOne of the first things to learn when using CSS is not to choose elements
Jbased on what their default presentation is, but rather on what structure
Jthey give to the page. You then use CSS to give them the presentation you
want.

K<p> denotes a paragraph. Use it when you are marking up a single paragraph
Jof text. It is a block element, meaning that there is a line break before
Land after it. It doesn't "create 2 line breaks", it has margins that create
Mwhite space between it and other elements. That white space can be done away
with using CSS.

p {margin: 0px;}

J<div> is a container, used for grouping elements. You use it when several
Lparagraphs need to have the same style or be separated from the rest of the
Fpage somehow. It is also a block element, but its margins are zero by
	default.

K<span> is also a container, but it is an inline container. As you noticed,
Lit doesn't come with any line break or margins. You use it when you need to
Lisolate a few words or a passage in the middle of a paragraph and give them
a particular style.

KThe true way to use CSS is to start by using basic HTML properly, and then
Ladd the CSS to make it look the way you want. Don't choose HTML elemnts for
3their "special effects". Add the effects with CSS.

--
Scott Schrantz
www.computer-vet.com/weblog/
scotts@computer-vet.com
AFrom grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de  Tue Apr 29 17:27:50 2003
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:27:50 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OReferences: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBB4@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>
4Message-ID: <00b001c30e6c$4a62c670$d201a8c0@jenspc>

Hi,

Aaccording to Apple the new Safari-Browser may be your Netscape5.
GOn http://developer.apple.com/internet/safari_faq.html#2 you can read:

<cite>
(The entire Safari user-agent string is:
LMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/XX (KHTML, like
Gecko) Safari/YY

K...where XX is the version of Apple's web technology used by Safari and YY
*is the version of the Safari application.
JAnd remember, since the rendering engine used by Safari behaves most like
HNetscape, the Safari JavaScript engine will report navigator.appName as
,"Netscape". Other Navigator values include:

G      navigator.appCodeName = "Mozilla" navigator.appName = "Netscape"
A      navigator.appVersion = "5.0" navigator.platform = "MacPPC"
D      navigator.product = "Gecko" navigator.productSub = "20030107"
0      navigator.vendor = "Apple Computer, Inc."

</cite>

HTH,

Jens
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [219]
=================
)From: gsam at trini0.org (Gerard Samuel)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:55:01 -0400
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
+In-Reply-To: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
*References: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
*Message-ID: <3EAEBC75.7010602@trini0.org>

IThanks to all those who replied.  It has become a little clearer for me.
HI felt that what I was trying to do was cheat the system, and I didn't 
want to develop bad
habits from the start.
HNow I think I understand why Eric Meyer requested to pull all <br> and 
&nbsp; tags out of
Fyour html document when converting to CSS in the book "Eric Meyer on 
)CSS" (excellent resource so far for me).
1So back to work for me, till my next question :)

Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
J> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
H> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not 
> to use tables for layout.
F> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by 
> line fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
>
G> (Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
<> control the space between options, style the option text,
I> and if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
> the form inputs.
>
*> Thanks for any insight you may provide.
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [220]
=================
.From: weston at canncentral.org (Weston Cann)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:37:27 -0600
KSubject: [css-d] Trying to hide styles from different browsers (IE Win, IE
	Mac, everything else)
CMessage-ID: <A0B8F58A-7A71-11D7-94CC-0050E4F9FA12@canncentral.org>

II've got a layout with some absolutely positioned elements that seem to 
Jdisplay a few pixels off from browser to browser. After some reflection, 
HI've decided to try and feed different sets of values to three general 
kinds of browsers:

(1) MS IE Win
(2) MS IE Mac
1(3) Any other child-selector recognizing browser

@The scheme I've been trying to use to accomplish this has been:

F(1) Feed the IE Win value straight out in the style sheet ( example: 
.#tlmenu { position: absolute; top: 118px; } )
G(2) Feed the IE Mac value using a child selector expression, which is 
Jtherefore hidden from IE Win (example: #centring>#tlmenu { top: 119px } )
J(3) Use the \ comment hack and another child selector expression to feed 
Ianother value to all other child-selector reading browsers (example: /* 
.hack \ */ #centring>#tlmenu { top: 120px; } )

JThe problem is: the Gecko-based browser I'm using (Chimera/Navigator .6) 
Hseems to be oblivious to everything I put in #3. Am I going about this 
Jin a fundamentally wrong way, or is there just a detail I'm missing? Are 
there other, better schemes?

&(If you want the full context, go to 
Ihttp://weston.canncentral.org/misc/XVoyager/about.html ... it's got the 
XHTML and style sheets)

Thanks,

	Weston

~ == ~
http://weston.canncentral.org/
FMaybe the reason the invisible hand is invisible is because it isn't 
there.
U13:43:45.477 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [221]
=================
1From: css.rules at ntlworld.com (Standards R'Us)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:53:08 +0100
"Subject: [css-d] IE 5 Margin Woes
�Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAr8lY0hVSt0GwCUriyH46gcKDAAAQAAAAUrRwFaryNk+fCMqWmDO7KAEAAAAA@ntlworld.com>

5Hi all - newbie to the list - hope you all are well,

GNow to the matters in hand, can anyone help/advise me on the following
point.

9Firstly the CSS validates and the XHTML does as strict. 

EBut....IE 5 seems to ignore the margin for the nav.a and nav.a:hover
7declaration set on my css in regards to the CSS below;

.nav{
*background-image:url('../img/navbg.jpg');
background-repeat:no-repeat;
border-left:1px solid #CCCCCC;
 border-right:1px solid #CCCCCC;
border-top:medium none;
margin:0px;
padding:0px;
width:780px
}
.nav a{
color:#000000;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;
font-size:12px;
font-weight:normal;
line-height:52px;
margin-left:14px;    /ignores
margin-right:14px;  /ignores
padding:0px;
text-decoration:none;
text-transform:capitalize;
}
.nav a:hover{
color:#FF0000;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;
font-size:12px;
line-height:52px;
margin-left:14px;    /ignores
margin-right:14px;  /ignores
text-decoration:none;
text-transform:capitalize;
}

Any suggestions?

TIA

Jeremy

U13:43:45.478 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [222]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:59:56 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
EReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
3Message-ID: <p05210607bad4798b4575@[152.3.174.98]>

,At 9:09 AM -0300 4/28/03, Joel Young wrote:
>===============
>Scenario 1:
B>Assume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}
>
@>This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
$>of the browser's default. Yes? No?

GThis is a non-flame-war aspect to this problem, so I'll answer.  Yes, 
Gyour reading is correct on this point and all the points that follow, 
Bwith one caveat: be clear that "browser's default" refers to the 
Dperson doing the browsing, not the piece of software.  As has been 
Bthoroughly discussed, the individual may have changed his or her 
Dsettings, so what they see may not be the same as what the browser 
@ships configured to display.  So long as you are aware of that 
<possibility, you have calculated resulting sizes correctly.

EYou have to decide for yourself if it is more important to cater to 
Fthe cognoscenti or the clueless.  Just be aware that whichever group 
Fyou pick, the other group will see something different when it comes 
Fto font size.  Also, it is pretty much universally acknowledged that 
)the clueless is by far the larger group.

<opinion type="strongly held">
=My own view is that it is better to be concerned more about 
Eaccessibility and less about aesthetics.  Text that is slightly too 
Bsmall is less easily accommodated than text that is slightly too 
Clarge.  In addition, my experience is that more users back out of 
Dsites with text they find too small than sites with text they find 
Ctoo large.  This is the primary - and contrary to popular belief, 
Dcarefully-considered - reason that browser makers have chosen font 
Bsize defaults rather on the large side.  Take care in overriding 
their judgment.

DIn any case, be extremely sure of your choice if making non-header 
Afont sizes greater than 150% or less than 75-80% of the default 
G*anywhere* on a site.  Sizes outside that range are virtually assured 
Fof irritating some of your users.  (That is, constructions like your 
@third example, which made the inner text 72% of the "browser's 
(default", should generally be avoided.)
</opinion>

-- 

-Adam Kuehn

_13:43:45.488 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [389462] bytes
�13:43:45.488 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Thu Apr 24 16:07:26 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker

7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 16:40:48 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:40:48 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] List with mixed styles
:In-Reply-To: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
9References: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
/Message-ID: <3EA80580.3070503@cookiecrook.com>


K> What you want to do is create a div for the sub-items and add styles for
7> that specific div to your CSS. (Hat tip: Eric Meyer)
> 
> So, for example:
> <div id="menu">
> ITEM ONE
> <div class="subitems">
> Sub-item 1
> Sub-item 2
	> </div>
	> </div>

;The nesting idea is correct, but keep it a list, not divs.

<ul class="menu">
   <li>Item 1

     <ul>
       <li>Sub-item 1</li>
       <li>Sub-item 2</li>
     </ul>
	   </li>
   <li>Item 2</li>
   <li>Item 3</li>
</ul>

"ul.menu { /* top menu styles */ }
*ul.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
(ul.menu li ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
0ul.menu li ul li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

1Or, you could save a few bytes on the selectors.

 .menu { /* top menu styles */ }
(.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
#.menu ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
+.menu li li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

Good luck,
James Craig


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/

5From BradyG at BIDWELL.com  Thu Apr 24 16:49:36 2003
-From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
;for one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not ]
V13:43:45.488 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
Y13:43:45.488 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [4610]
Y13:43:45.489 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [5847]
Z13:43:45.489 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11042]
Z13:43:45.489 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11694]
Z13:43:45.489 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14322]
Z13:43:45.489 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14813]
Z13:43:45.489 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [17185]
Z13:43:45.490 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [22619]
Z13:43:45.490 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [23777]
Z13:43:45.490 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [24935]
Z13:43:45.490 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [25600]
Z13:43:45.490 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [27077]
Z13:43:45.490 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [28048]
Z13:43:45.490 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [31103]
Z13:43:45.490 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [32322]
Z13:43:45.539 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33207]
Z13:43:45.539 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33881]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [36426]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [38906]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [39611]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40362]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40854]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [42307]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [44381]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [45120]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [46626]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [47299]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [48023]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [49141]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [50265]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [53644]
Z13:43:45.540 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [54261]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [55133]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [56603]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [57466]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [58820]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [60995]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [62757]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [63497]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [65951]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [66697]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [67645]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [68938]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [70058]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [71395]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [73633]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [76326]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [77209]
Z13:43:45.541 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [78431]
Z13:43:45.542 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [82607]
Z13:43:45.542 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [83312]
Z13:43:45.542 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [85154]
Z13:43:45.542 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [86345]
Z13:43:45.542 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [88347]
Z13:43:45.542 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [89056]
Z13:43:45.543 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [91025]
Z13:43:45.543 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [92518]
Z13:43:45.543 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [94760]
Z13:43:45.543 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [95686]
Z13:43:45.543 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [97016]
Z13:43:45.543 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [98916]
[13:43:45.543 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [100703]
[13:43:45.543 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [101981]
[13:43:45.543 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [104651]
[13:43:45.543 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [105522]
[13:43:45.546 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [108140]
[13:43:45.546 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [109030]
[13:43:45.546 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [110577]
[13:43:45.547 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [111713]
[13:43:45.547 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [112218]
[13:43:45.547 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [115007]
[13:43:45.547 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [117166]
[13:43:45.547 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [120070]
[13:43:45.547 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [121361]
[13:43:45.547 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [122997]
[13:43:45.547 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [123856]
[13:43:45.547 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [125795]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [128549]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129484]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129922]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [131612]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [132516]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [133642]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [134621]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [137652]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [138236]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [142465]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [143647]
[13:43:45.548 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [144733]
[13:43:45.549 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [145232]
[13:43:45.552 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [149409]
[13:43:45.553 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [151060]
[13:43:45.553 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153155]
[13:43:45.553 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153674]
[13:43:45.553 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [154221]
[13:43:45.553 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [155386]
[13:43:45.553 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [156187]
[13:43:45.553 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [158083]
[13:43:45.553 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [160013]
[13:43:45.553 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [162156]
[13:43:45.553 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [163096]
[13:43:45.554 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [165147]
[13:43:45.554 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [166475]
[13:43:45.554 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [167195]
[13:43:45.554 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [168631]
[13:43:45.554 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [170067]
[13:43:45.554 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [171200]
[13:43:45.555 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [172161]
[13:43:45.556 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [173044]
[13:43:45.556 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [175327]
[13:43:45.556 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [176650]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [182034]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [184318]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [185360]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [188868]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [189349]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [191813]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [192592]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [196228]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [201718]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [202888]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [205824]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [206835]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [209112]
[13:43:45.557 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [213575]
[13:43:45.558 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [214632]
[13:43:45.558 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [217173]
[13:43:45.558 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [218712]
[13:43:45.558 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [222713]
[13:43:45.558 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [225406]
[13:43:45.558 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [238231]
[13:43:45.558 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [240183]
[13:43:45.558 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [241335]
[13:43:45.558 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [242213]
[13:43:45.558 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [243658]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [247376]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [250226]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [251222]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [252782]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [253582]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [255113]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [257141]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [258729]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [260173]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [263021]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [266112]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [267943]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [268773]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [269368]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [270287]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [271965]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [272918]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [274357]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [275702]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [276626]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [278211]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [279791]
[13:43:45.559 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [280557]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281248]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281892]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [284485]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [285508]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [287192]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [289194]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290229]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290940]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [291497]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292008]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292955]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [295681]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [296401]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [297412]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [299878]
[13:43:45.560 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [302741]
[13:43:45.563 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [304075]
[13:43:45.563 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [305062]
[13:43:45.563 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [306733]
[13:43:45.563 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [307416]
[13:43:45.563 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [310045]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [311566]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [312707]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [314900]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [316029]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [318083]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [321443]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [323696]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [324549]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [325233]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [326418]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [328215]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [329589]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [331924]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [333708]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [334941]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [335517]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [337115]
[13:43:45.564 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [339999]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [344275]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [345199]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [348883]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [349908]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [354329]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [355908]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359330]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359935]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [361358]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [363720]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364142]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364749]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [366632]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [367896]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [368358]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [369601]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [370475]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [371432]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374211]
[13:43:45.565 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374625]
[13:43:45.566 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [378695]
[13:43:45.566 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [381979]
[13:43:45.566 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [384057]
[13:43:45.566 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [385721]
[13:43:45.566 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [387022]
�13:43:45.566 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.567 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.store.MemoryStore - Initialized net.sf.ehcache.store.NotifyingMemoryStore for mstor.mbox.214306153
`13:43:45.567 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.Cache - Initialised cache: mstor.mbox.214306153
�13:43:45.567 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.config.ConfigurationHelper - CacheDecoratorFactory not configured for defaultCache. Skipping for 'mstor.mbox.214306153'.
�13:43:45.567 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:45.567 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker
�13:43:45.572 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.572 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [1]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:40:48 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] List with mixed styles
:In-Reply-To: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
9References: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
/Message-ID: <3EA80580.3070503@cookiecrook.com>


K> What you want to do is create a div for the sub-items and add styles for
7> that specific div to your CSS. (Hat tip: Eric Meyer)
> 
> So, for example:
> <div id="menu">
> ITEM ONE
> <div class="subitems">
> Sub-item 1
> Sub-item 2
	> </div>
	> </div>

;The nesting idea is correct, but keep it a list, not divs.

<ul class="menu">
   <li>Item 1

     <ul>
       <li>Sub-item 1</li>
       <li>Sub-item 2</li>
     </ul>
	   </li>
   <li>Item 2</li>
   <li>Item 3</li>
</ul>

"ul.menu { /* top menu styles */ }
*ul.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
(ul.menu li ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
0ul.menu li ul li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

1Or, you could save a few bytes on the selectors.

 .menu { /* top menu styles */ }
(.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
#.menu ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
+.menu li li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

Good luck,
James Craig


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [2]
=================
-From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
Ifor one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not recommended for
Iothers (@page is useless for continuous media, pixels can't be used with
tty).

>@media was designed specifically for the purpose of declaring
Emedia-specific rules in a style sheet targetting more than one media
F(e.g., "all"). Why wouldn't you use it for that purpose? (OK, there's
poor support, but...)

=> Since your "ideal" set includes "handheld", and almost all
F> new devices fall into this category, you're not really avoiding the
> problem! :-)=20

DI only recommended using handheld if the /only/ styles declared are
Hthings like font and color. Handhelds have abysmal positioning support,
Hworse than WebTV (see below). If, however, you wanted to declare screen
6and handheld together, @media is the perfect tool.=20

=> Web of real CSS content to deal with. New devices are more
>> likely to be better at CSS since they have to work with new
=> Web content. And if the UA is compliant, then pages should

 Yes, but they aren't compliant:
("CSS2 Support in PDA/Handheld Browsers"
H<http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/handheldbrowsercsssupport.html>

@Thanks for making me think through all these media issues, Ian.

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
:From bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Apr 24 17:10:06 2003
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:10:06 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] smaller checkboxes
7References: <1824277687.20030423143018@balance.com.au>
P	<3EA71397.3080403@cookiecrook.com> <00be01c309ff$25f59db0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304231944540.19929-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
8Message-ID: <000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

----- Original Message -----
#From: "Ian Hickson" <ian@hixie.ch>
J<<Unfortunately that won't work in any standard-compliant UA, because the
KWingdings font doesn't have a UNICODE encoding, and so compliant UAs won't
Fuse it to render characters (since the font claims to not support any
EUNICODE characters, and the HTML and CSS specs say that the document
character set is UNICODE).

KTo make it work in any compliant UA, use the UNICODE checkmark characters,
Ge.g. U+2610 and U+2611 (entities &#x2610; and &#x2611;, which, if your
:e-mail client is working right, look like ☐ and ☑).>>
&- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

KWell, happily in respect to font substitution, Mozilla, Netscape 6.1+, and
IE
&are not standards-compliant browsers.

CI have tried UNICODE solutions and they always end up causing more
Cproblems in more situations than the easier and more common method
Gof font substitution. At least in the Windows world, I see nothing but
.problems in implementing Unicode equivalents.

BDo you have a link to some example where checkboxes (or something
;similar) have been done using standards for glyph display?

Brett




�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [3]
=================
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:24:25 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
8Message-ID: <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

=| I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
2| http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html
L| Explorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes
a
D| few problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.


HI feel like I'm getting more for my browser money when I click on those

big ones!

Brett
�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [4]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:25:06 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
.In-Reply-To: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
" <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>
3Message-ID: <p05210605bacdba15ac2a@[152.3.174.98]>

N>On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
>#
K># In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
M># relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
K># the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
L># changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
K># flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
;># page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.
>
F>I was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my
I>layout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So,
J>unless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do,
#>I'll have to abandon these plans.

FI haven't checked out this solution, so take it with a grain of salt:

GAbsolute positioning shouldn't affect the fluidity of your layout, if 
Cyou do it correctly.  If you absolutely position something, it is 
Dpositioned with respect to it's containing block.  That containing 
Cblock is defined to be the nearest ancestor with a position other 
Gthan "static".  Since "static" is also the default position for every 
Aelement, you would therefore need to position the element which 
Econtains the hidden/invisible content in question - in other words, 
Gposition the list item.  Try "relative" on the li, then "absolute" on 
=the paragraph and see if that does what you are looking for.

AIncidentally, to be a bit more semantically correct, you should 
Bactually make the invisible/hidden element a div , rather than a 
Gparagraph (positioned as explained).  Each verse could then be marked 
<up as a paragraph, with no additional positioning required.

-- 

-Adam Kuehn
3From steve at mrclay.org  Thu Apr 24 17:44:40 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:44:40 -0400
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
>In-Reply-To: <3CD82BA2-764B-11D7-9DBB-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
=References: <3CD82BA2-764B-11D7-9DBB-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
5Message-ID: <198361053093.20030424124440@mrclay.org>

:Thursday, April 24, 2003, 7:52:34 AM, Arlen Walker wrote:
AW> Margins also do *not* add;

2Vertically, but they don't collapse horizontally.

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [5]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:43:50 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
7Message-ID: <004801c30a80$af81d900$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Saila, Craig :
>
B> Thanks for making me think through all these media issues, Ian.

DAnd it's been a good conversation to follow along with, it's got me

thinking.
--Josh

�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [6]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
>
> Steve Thomas wrote:
,>> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>>
?>>     <link rel="stylesheet" href="site.css" type="text/css">
>
K> The only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
I> so /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
	> stuff.

GThat's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has delegated
Gauthority over the "media" attribute to the CSS working group, who has
(decided to change the default to "all".

JUnfortunately I can't find a public reference to this decision. I'll look
	into it.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
3From steve at mrclay.org  Thu Apr 24 18:40:08 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:40:08 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
4Message-ID: <56364380796.20030424134008@mrclay.org>

1Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
CS> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
5S> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".

?This is a good way to stop using another purely presentational
Gelement.  You might also want to specify font-size:0; height:0 just to
<be sure the space within doesn't give you a 1em tall block.

DThere is a small catch in this display:block method, though: Inline
Gelements, such as A, are not supposed to contain blocks (as we've told
Espan to render), so, even though it's valid HTML/CSS, there could be
 unexpected behavior/rendering. 

Another technique would be:

span {
>   white-space:pre-line; /* gets rid of the space (CSS2.1) */
}
span:after {
4   content:"\A";         /* generated line-break */
}

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:45.573 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [7]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] smaller checkboxes
9In-Reply-To: <000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
7References: <1824277687.20030423143018@balance.com.au>
$	<3EA71397.3080403@cookiecrook.com>
-	<00be01c309ff$25f59db0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304231944540.19929-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
-	<000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241008150.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Brett Merkey wrote:
>
I> Well, happily in respect to font substitution, Mozilla, Netscape 6.1+,
/> and IE are not standards-compliant browsers.

@I believe recent Mozilla builds have been fixed in this regard.


E> I have tried UNICODE solutions and they always end up causing more
H> problems in more situations than the easier and more common method of
F> font substitution. At least in the Windows world, I see nothing but
0> problems in implementing Unicode equivalents.

JUnfortunately, we're not in a Windows world. Millions of people use other
operating systems.


D> Do you have a link to some example where checkboxes (or something
=> similar) have been done using standards for glyph display?

This works in Mozilla:

@   http://www.damowmow.com/playground/demos/checkboxes/001.html

KUnfortunately it doesn't work in WinIE6, due to its rather abysmal UNICODE
Jsupport. It is sad that the most popular UA is so bad at basic standards.
DIt was the same back in the days of Netscape 4... Maybe having poor
7support for the specs is the key to being popular? ;-)

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 18:46:03 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:46:03 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
?> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has
<> delegated authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS
A> working group, who has decided to change the default to "all".

-Well, that would make *a lot* more sense!=20

IThere does seems to be an inconsistency, given @import defaults to "all"
and this reference:
<<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/styles.html#h-14.4.1>
Bimplies it should default to "all" and apparently the DTD doesn't
;specify any default media-type, so "all" would make sense.

9Ain't it great when even the "standards" are consistent!

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
/From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Apr 24 18:49:31 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:49:31 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
9In-Reply-To: <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
- <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>


=> I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
I> http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html Explorer renders these
I> as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a few problems with
2> the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

KActually the reason Mozilla stops styling the checkboxes in strict mode is
Fthat the checkboxes have classes that do not match the classes in the
Kstylesheet. In quirks mode, Mozilla is ignoring the error and treating the
Iclasses as case insensitive, but in strict mode it does the right thing.

AIf you change the classes to lowercase throughout it works fine.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
<From contact at lukeredpath.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 19:08:38 2003
2From: contact at lukeredpath.co.uk (Luke Redpath)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:08:38 +0100
.Subject: [css-d] Cross-Browser Template Check
EMessage-ID: <ENEMIKFCPDMDJCEEJFPPOEKHCGAA.contact@lukeredpath.co.uk>

Hi,

<I'm working on a template for a redesign of a personal site
(www.sonicdeath.co.uk).

The template is here:

8http://testpad.sonicdeath.co.uk/sonicdeath_template.htm

/And a jpg of what it should look like is here:

8http://testpad.sonicdeath.co.uk/sonicdeath_template.jpg

ISo far it works in NS7, IE6, Opera 7, Moz 1.1/1.3 on Windows. It doesn't
Mwork in Opera 5 but that is fine with me because I would expect the majority
Dof Opera users (and we are talking about the majority of an extreme
Iminority) to have the latest version. I've not implemented any box model
Khacks yet either so I'm not bothered about what it looks like in IE 5.x at
this point in time.

HWhat I would like to know is what it looks like in any other browsers I
Ghaven't mentioned, particularly IE 5.2, Camino and Mozilla on the Mac.

MI need to tidy the code up a bit, but that said, it still validates as XHTML
'1.0 strict and the CSS also validates.

Cheers,

Luke Redpath
--
www.sonicdeath.co.uk/weblog
C"Celebrity Squares" - giving the web a CSS makeover - coming soon!

�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [8]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:10:50 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3References: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
%Message-ID: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>

>
>
E> Here's my tip: create a <span> with a single space in it, like so:
B> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
4> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".
K> Now, without a stylesheet, you'll get the full link on one line - with a
I> space in the middle - but, in the styled version, the span will go on 
> to a
H> new line, but not actually show anything as there's only white-space 
	> in it,
> so it collapses.
-> There you have it - a CSS-only line break.
>
Yow!
-I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.

AWhy is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't

<p>
123 Trogdor St.<br />
Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
</p>

better than
p.address {margin: 0;}
'<p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
2<p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

besos
Miriam

-- 
http://www.surebluestudios.com

�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
S13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [9]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:28:20 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3References: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
'Message-ID: <3EA82CC4.7030406@f2o.org>

>
E> Here's my tip: create a <span> with a single space in it, like so:
B> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
4> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".
K> Now, without a stylesheet, you'll get the full link on one line - with a
I> space in the middle - but, in the styled version, the span will go on 
> to a
H> new line, but not actually show anything as there's only white-space 
	> in it,
?> so it collapses. There you have it - a CSS-only line break. 


Yow!
-I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.

AWhy is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't

<p>
123 Trogdor St.<br />
Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
</p>

better than
p.address {margin: 0;}
'<p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
2<p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

besos
Miriam

-- 
http://www.surebluestudios.com


�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [10]
=================
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:28:53 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
&In-Reply-To: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
'Message-ID: <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>

> <p>
> 123 Trogdor St.<br />
> Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
> </p>

.I suppose one could do similar with a list...
<ul>
<li>123 Trogdor St.</li>
<li>Strongbadia, Wherever</li>
</ul>

?but that's not really a list, is it, and is therefore just as 
&semantically meaningless as a <br />?
Hrrm.

besos
Miriam


--
http://www.surebluestudios.com
�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [11]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:30:47 -0400
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
7Message-ID: <005301c30a8f$a31f3b80$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

GIf this is something that everyone knows about, forgive me for somehow
missing it somewhere!

CFor those redirecting non-compliant browsers via sniff or the cute
G"ahem" class that's revealed when the stylesheet isn't loaded... Where
Bare you going to send your non-compliant users now?  If anywhere?

C>From the page I always point to: http://webstandards.org/upgrade/

H"Note to site builders: The WaSP Browser Upgrade Campaign has come to a
Dclose. As such we ask that you discontinue your use of this upgrade
Hmessage and visit the Beyond the Browser Upgrade Campaign page to learn
about what to do instead."

:(

@This isn't old news is it? (I'll be really red-faced if it is).

ISo is there still a need to re-direct your non-compliant visitors, or do
Fyou agree with the sentiments about it just being an easy out for not
=testing our pages for some browsers like NN4 as expressed at
,http://webstandards.org/act/campaign/buc/ ?

FI personally, still see the need to redirect non-compliant users to a
Hpage that tells them more information, like where to obtain an upgrade,
Fwhy they were redirected (or why they were provided the link) and the
like.  Thoughts?

--Josh

�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [12]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:33:01 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA82DDD.2080805@cookiecrook.com>


DI admit I haven't been paying as close attention to this thread as 
Ipossible, but what do you guys think of adding @media rules? Would this 
work?

6<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="all" />

DThen the stylesheet could include general styles still hidden from 
%Netscape 4, immediately followed by:

@media screen {
   @import "screen.css";
}
@media print {
   @import "print.css";
}

@Perhaps there are some bugs associated with this approach, too?

Just curious.
James

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [13]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:43:05 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241135500.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>


)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
> Ian Hickson wrote:
@>> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has
=>> delegated authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS
B>> working group, who has decided to change the default to "all".
>
,> Well, that would make *a lot* more sense!

GHeh. I've reminded the relevant person to add this to the HTML errata.


?> Ain't it great when even the "standards" are [in]consistent!

KThe people who write the browsers are the same as the people who write the
7specs... it's to be expected that both are flawed. ;-)

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
/From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Apr 24 20:02:24 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
&In-Reply-To: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Miriam Frost wrote:
>
C> Why is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't
>
> <p>
> 123 Trogdor St.<br />
> Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
> </p>
>
> better than
> p.address {margin: 0;}
)> <p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
4> <p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

Yes, it is. Even better is:

   <address>
   123 Trogdor St.<br>
   Strongbadia, Wherever<br>
   </address>

<<br> is only wrong when used to separate paragraphs, as in:

   Foo Bar.<br>
   <br>
   Baz.<br>
   <br>

...which would be better as:

   <p> Foo Bar. </p>
   <p> Baz. </p>

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
1From miriam at f2o.org  Thu Apr 24 20:04:35 2003
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:04:35 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EA83543.9040605@f2o.org>

>
>
>   <address>
>   123 Trogdor St.<br>
>   Strongbadia, Wherever<br>
>   </address>
>
D'oh!
JI have cause to use <address> so infrequently that it completely slipped 
	my mind.
%Off to wash the egg from my face....

besos
Miriam
�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.574 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [14]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:12:29 -0500
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
-	<002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>


=>>I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
I>>http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html Explorer renders these
I>>as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a few problems with
2>>the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.
> 
B>If you change the classes to lowercase throughout it works fine.

GI can get the input's clickable area to enlarge in Mozilla and Opera, 
Abut not the actual visable representation like in IE. Is this a 
Fpreference setting or perhaps related to the XP native form elements?

Here's a screen shot.
@http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif

GOpera acts about the same except vertically aligned middle instead of 
bottom.

James


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
�13:43:45.578 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.578 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.578 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [15]
=================
1From: lists at thinkbigideas.com (Anthony Baker)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 02:24:29 -0700
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
8In-Reply-To: <005301c30a8f$a31f3b80$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
4Message-ID: <001601c30a43$4e8a29f0$210110ac@BigGuy>



H| I personally, still see the need to redirect non-compliant users to a
?| page that tells them more information, like where to obtain 
| an upgrade,
H| why they were redirected (or why they were provided the link) and the
| like.  Thoughts?
| 
	| --Josh



DMake one of your own. Copy the content, create an upgrade page with
Ayour design, paste the content in. I did something similar on an
earlier site myself. 

DThat, or, someone could create another version of the page and have
Ait hosted somewhere, allowing folks to point to it. A grassroots
upgrade effort, as it were.

	/Anthony
�13:43:45.578 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [16]
=================
,From: samuel at latchman.org (Sam Latchman)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:30:20 +0200
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
(In-Reply-To: <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
	<3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>
,Message-ID: <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>

9If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is

address {margin: 0;}
#<address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
)<address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>

3with possibly some class="street", class="city"...


::Sam

-- 
Samuel Latchman
-----------------
web designer [fr]
http://www.latchman.org/sam/


�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [17]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
0In-Reply-To: <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
- <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
$ <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, James Craig wrote:
>
H> I can get the input's clickable area to enlarge in Mozilla and Opera,
B> but not the actual visable representation like in IE. Is this a
H> preference setting or perhaps related to the XP native form elements?
>
> Here's a screen shot.
B> http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif

KAssuming that shot is of Mozilla, then I would guess that the XP theme you
;use doesn't support scaling. What does it look like in IE?

FNote that at the moment, styling form controls is not covered by CSS.
GWhile we may be adding more control over this in future levels, at the
9moment, UA implementors can basically do what they like.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 20:57:40 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:57:40 -0500
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
-	<002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
$	<3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
+Message-ID: <3EA841B4.609@cookiecrook.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
*> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, James Craig wrote:
>
>>Here's a screen shot.
B>>http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif
> 
L>Assuming that shot is of Mozilla, then I would guess that the XP theme you
<>use doesn't support scaling. What does it look like in IE?

GYes, that's Mozilla 1.3 on Win XP. IE6 on XP gets the size right, but 
Duses the default browser form element appearance (black and white) 
Ginstead of the XP styled form controls. This is the default silver XP 
theme, not any add-on.

James

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [18]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:08:02 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD6@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

James Craig wrote:
E> I admit I haven't been paying as close attention to this thread as
E> possible, but what do you guys think of adding @media rules? Would
> this work?

FThat's exactly the way to go, and is what @media is designed for. The
Iproblem is, AFAIK, @media isn't well supported in some browser that have
Igood CSS support like IE5/Mac and some versions of KHTML-based browsers.

>> <link rel=3D"stylesheet" type=3D"text/css" media=3D"all" />
>=20
E> Then the stylesheet could include general styles still hidden from
'> Netscape 4, immediately followed by:
>=20
> @media screen {
>    @import "screen.css";
> }
> @media print {
>    @import "print.css";
> }
>=20
B> Perhaps there are some bugs associated with this approach, too?

DThat's kinda overkill if you're using it to block NN4, but it's the
Eideal way to work with media=3D"all" in that you're using @media.=20

FThe reason I say it's overkill is because NN4 doesn't get @import, so
*this, for example, would be just as good:

) <style type=3D"text/css" media=3D"all">
-  /* all-media general styles not for NN4 */

 </style>
 <style type=3D"text/css">
  @import "screen.css" screen;
  @import "print.css" print;

 </style>

IOr within that media=3D"all" CSS file (although I'm not sure if @media =
has
to come first, like @import):

-  /* all-media general styles not for NN4 */
 @media screen {
   /*rules for screen*/
 }
 @media print {
   /*rules for print*/
 }

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Thu Apr 24 21:24:45 2003
%From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:24:45 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <1051210553.6798@tweek.sebduggan.com>
2Message-ID: <1051215888.5130@tweek.sebduggan.com>


&> From: Miriam Frost <miriam@f2o.org>

> Yow!
/> I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.
> 
:> Why is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks

LThere's absolutely nothing wrong with line breaks. It's just that sometimes
Myou want your styled layout to break in a specific place, but have it appear
 as one line when it's unstyled.

�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [19]
=================
.From: info at n2dreamweaver.com (Donna Casey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:44:34 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3References: <1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com>
4Message-ID: <00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>

Itoo bad that the link to the "elm" program that actually works with this
Fstyle of non-munging list replies is an orphaned link...it seems that
Joutlook express doesn't offer a choice between individual and group, just
individual and all.

Donna

?> > http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssDiscussListHeaders
>
>
J> OK, I feel suitably chastened :)  It's just not the reply behaviour I'm
used
> to. I'm sure I'll adjust...
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [20]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:56:57 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
CMessage-ID: <OFE5E77EAE.7CFFF59F-ON88256D12.0072C185@capgroup.com>


;> If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is

> address {margin: 0;}
%> <address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
+> <address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>

5> with possibly some class="street", class="city"...

HWe're getting off-topic here, but before we leave I'd like to point out
Jthat the above is not actually proper -- it denotes that each line of the
Laddress is an address itself, when in fact each element is only one part of
the address.

Thanks,

MikeL
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [21]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:08:41 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] WaSP Upgrade Campaign.
7Message-ID: <010501c30aa5$af80eed0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

LI have put together a simple version of the WaSP Upgrade Campaign page that
Mcan be used in a similar manner as the previous one.  I used most of the old
&copy, so there should be no suprises.

%http://www.bewb.org/webstandards.asp


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [22]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:05:41 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
4Message-ID: <60376713968.20030424170541@mrclay.org>

9Thursday, April 24, 2003, 3:02:24 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:
8IH> <br> is only wrong when used to separate paragraphs

FThere are other instances where a line-break is visually preferred in
Fa certain place (rather than left to natural flow).  IMO, these cases
*warrant an alternate line-break solution.

ESay you have a heading that's just a tad too long for a single line:

$|  Welcome to My Page About Race  |
$|  Cars                           |

and you might want:

$|       Welcome to My Page        |
$|        About Race Cars          |

FA <br /> just really doesn't make sense structurally and playing with
Gmargins/padding until it wraps where you want is less-than-ideal (what
7if the user chooses a slightly bigger/different font).

8You could use non-breaking spaces to do something like:

E<h1>Welcome&nbsp;to&nbsp;My&nbsp;Page About&nbsp;Race&nbsp;Cars</h1>

2But this seems more elegant and content-friendly:

D<h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [23]
=================
9From: stephen at crescentcreative.com (Stephen Hamilton)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:01:18 -0700
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
4In-Reply-To: <009e01c30a1c$25ff5b80$650aa8c0@video>
3Message-ID: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>

GI don't know if it's correct form to reply to your own messages, but I
Ksolved most of my nested list / rollover issues with one remaining niggle.

IMy original problem was caused by not nesting the list elements properly
viz:

	<ul>
		<li>element1</li>
		<ul>
			<li>subelement1</li>
		</ul>
		<li>element2</li>
	</ul>

That piece is now corrected.

HHowever I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
8attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!

%Any pointers are always appreciated.

Stephen

-----Original Message-----
=From: Stephen Hamilton [mailto:stephen@crescentcreative.com]
(Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 9:44 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc


GI have built nested left navigation menus with CSS rollovers on a site
J(www.saveburlingameschools.com) and find significant differences from IE6
<versus Opera 7.1 , Netscape 7.0 , and Mozilla 1.3 (all W2K)

>1) IE does not pick up the color attribute for the text link:

.navbar li a {
 <snip>
  color: #880026;
 }

92) and IE does not pick up the submenu background image:

7http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/index.php?Topic=5

.subnavbar li a  {
 <snip>
1  background-image: url('pictures/submenu.gif');
   background-repeat: no-repeat;
  text-decoration: none;

LAll the other mentioned browsers seem to work ok (though there is a strange
;framing ssue with Mozilla that I haven't quite resolved!).

The style sheets are at :
2http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/measurea.css
8http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/measurealayout.css


.Any thoughts / pointers would be appreciated.

Many thanks

Stephen

J"There are many roads up the mountain, but they all lead to the top   ...
<The road is steep whichever way you go, so enjoy the view!"



�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [24]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:05:33 -0400
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
5In-Reply-To: <001601c30a43$4e8a29f0$210110ac@BigGuy>
7Message-ID: <006701c30aa5$3f66d010$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Anthony Baker : 
> Make one of your own. 

IYeah, that's what I plan on doing I think.. But my real main concern was
Ethe sites out there that have that reference that are now out of the
Fdesigner's control.  Thankfully I saw on Mark Pilgrim's site that the
Dpage isn't going anywhere, so we won't be sending folks to a 404 on
those older sites.
Ihttp://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/04/21/browser_upgrade_campaign_off
icially_retired.html

-- Josh

�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [25]
=================
*From: msauers at bcr.org (Michael Sauers)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:39:00 -0600
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
5In-Reply-To: <60376713968.20030424170541@mrclay.org>
;Message-ID: <KGEHKLFLLACNDPAKIHOPIEAHCPAA.msauers@bcr.org>

Steve;

KYou've just lost me completely. You're suggesting that <br /> doesn't make
Lsense to break a line into two but that we should span a space and classify
Iit as "br" (which you didn't say what that class is defined as) instead.

LWhy oh why would I do that? Why doesn't <br /> make sense structurally? Why
Mdo you suggest almost 15x the amount of code instead. This just doesn't make
7sense to me. Did I miss something in your explanation?

3--------------------------------------------------
,Michael Sauers, Librarian, Trainer & Author
*Bibliographical Center for Research (BCR)
3Aurora, CO :: 303-751-6277 x124 :: msauers@bcr.org
3--------------------------------------------------

G> Say you have a heading that's just a tad too long for a single line:
>
H> A <br /> just really doesn't make sense structurally and playing with
I> margins/padding until it wraps where you want is less-than-ideal (what
9> if the user chooses a slightly bigger/different font).
>
:> You could use non-breaking spaces to do something like:
>
G> <h1>Welcome&nbsp;to&nbsp;My&nbsp;Page About&nbsp;Race&nbsp;Cars</h1>
>
4> But this seems more elegant and content-friendly:
>
F> <h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.579 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [26]
=================
#From: rudy937 at rogers.com (rudy)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:44:06 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
3References: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>
<Message-ID: <003f01c30aaa$a3bebb90$0cb96618@r9373j4yqbe8dy>

J> However I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
:> attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!
"> (www.saveburlingameschools.com)

*i love the apple with the bite out of it!

Lhowever, the colours on the nav links are identical in ie6 and mozilla, and
5in fact are no different in link versus hover status

,hover underlines the links in both browsers


rudy
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [27]
=================
)From: d.abraham at netgates.co.uk (Dave)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:59:14 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3References: <1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com>
)	<00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
2Message-ID: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>

JI am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
Hresource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
replies. Not much use at all.

MI don't understand the logic behind it, anyone know of any other CSS mailing
)lists that don't adopt this odd policy??

LPS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna Casey
(sorry Donna) Not good at all.

�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [28]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:02:01 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
3References: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>
2Message-ID: <006801c30aad$226a5600$6401a8c0@yoda>

J> However I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
:> attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!

.Link colors are controlled by pseudo-classes.

.navbar li a:link {
color: #880026;
}

Lonnie
<From contact at lukeredpath.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 23:51:28 2003
2From: contact at lukeredpath.co.uk (Luke Redpath)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:51:28 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
EMessage-ID: <ENEMIKFCPDMDJCEEJFPPEEKNCGAA.contact@lukeredpath.co.uk>

JIf you are using Outlook to use this list, it's not hard to adjust - just
Jhit reply to all instead, and quickly delete the sender from the to list,
leaving the list address.

Simple!

Cheers,

Luke Redpath
--
www.sonicdeath.co.uk/weblog
C"Celebrity Squares" - giving the web a CSS makeover - coming soon!

�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [29]
=================
%From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:54:53 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051221498.17020@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051224895.24032@tweek.sebduggan.com>


+> From: "Michael Sauers" <msauers@bcr.org>
> 
M> You've just lost me completely. You're suggesting that <br /> doesn't make
N> sense to break a line into two but that we should span a space and classify
K> it as "br" (which you didn't say what that class is defined as) instead.
> 
N> Why oh why would I do that? Why doesn't <br /> make sense structurally? Why
O> do you suggest almost 15x the amount of code instead. This just doesn't make
9> sense to me. Did I miss something in your explanation?

KIf you put a <br /> in the middle of a sentence, it puts a hard structural
Mbreak in - where what you really want is a purely layout break which doesn't
affect the flow of the words.

MIt basically goes to the core of separating layout from content - in Steve's
Kexample, the <br /> is being used just for layout, and should therefore be
frowned on.

�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [30]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:01:36 -0700 (PDT)
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
-In-Reply-To: <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
< <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org> <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241558520.15423-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Sam Latchman wrote:
>
;> If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is
>
> address {margin: 0;}
%> <address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
+> <address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>
>
5> with possibly some class="street", class="city"...

G<address> is a block-level element, it contains a single block address
9(well, actually, a single block of contact information).

HThe above markup would be two addresses, not one. One address should be
Kmarked up with one <address> element, with lineBReaks marked up with <br>.

G<br> is fine, it's only "evil" when it is used to do something that is
Jstrictly presentational. An address has multiple lines even when you read
,it out over the phone, so <br> makes sense.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
;From mark.r.stevens at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 00:00:38 2003
1From: mark.r.stevens at attbi.com (markinoregon)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:00:38 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
DMessage-ID: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>

GWhat's the big deal, I just right click on the message I want to reply
Mto,click reply-all, then remove the person's e-mail address from the to bar,
'like I did just now with Dave's reply.
IIt's just a matter of people being aware of who the addresses are in the
Kreply to header. we all know the horror stories in a corporate environment
Fwhere some knucklehead reply's about something sensitive to EVERYONE!

<>I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
>replies. Not much use at all.

KI TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
Kpeople on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
Kto try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
Athinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.

just my .02 cents.

-----Original Message-----
*From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org
>[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org]On Behalf Of Dave
'Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 2:59 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
*Subject: Re: [css-d] Replying to the list


JI am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
Hresource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
replies. Not much use at all.

MI don't understand the logic behind it, anyone know of any other CSS mailing
)lists that don't adopt this odd policy??

LPS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna Casey
(sorry Donna) Not good at all.


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [31]
=================
=From: Eli_Simpson at capgroup.com (Eli_Simpson@capgroup.com)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:14:15 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
CMessage-ID: <OF6AFD6A44.5D94CB6C-ON88256D12.007DFF19@capgroup.com>


F> <h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

EWith that solution you could end up with breaks between other words,
Idepending on font/window sizes.  Here's what I would do if you wanted to
5force a line break at that exact place and no other:

C<h1 style="white-space: nowrap">Welcome to My Page<br />About Race

Cars</h1>
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [32]
=================
)From: d.abraham at netgates.co.uk (Dave)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:14:16 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
DReferences: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>
2Message-ID: <007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>


M> I TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
M> people on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
M> to try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
C> thinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.
>
> just my .02 cents.

MI have not been around long enough to see that. I am not saying people don't
Lhelp,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making the information
Lharder to find. It is more of an assumption and an observation after only a
day of watching mind.


�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [33]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:41:44 -0400
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
DReferences: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>
'	<007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>
#Message-ID: <3EA87638.46D7@ij.net>

Dave wrote:
 
> markinoregon wrote:

O> > I TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
O> > people on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
O> > to try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
E> > thinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.
 
O> I have not been around long enough to see that. I am not saying people don't
N> help,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making the information
N> harder to find. It is more of an assumption and an observation after only a
> day of watching mind.

Offlist replies mean:

E1-Others have no clue how many or even if others have responded to a
Brequest, which means there's no way for others to know whether an
+(additional) reply from them is warranted.

C2-Validity checking is unavailable. If others don't see responses,
:defective replies aren't trapped for rebuttal/correction.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [34]
=================
.From: info at n2dreamweaver.com (Donna Casey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:43:55 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
References: 
O	<1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com><00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
'	<002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
4Message-ID: <003c01c30abb$5ef43290$7802a8c0@buglet>


H> PS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna
Casey
!> (sorry Donna) Not good at all.

Mnot a problem but my point was that the link to the ELM program was defunct.
JI found the setup here odd at first but adjusted even with OE after a few
'abrupt messages from the email police.

I--mostly lurk and snatch up the delicious crumbs of CSS that others drop
here and there....

J<slithering back to a dark corner of the list.....we loves it here, don't
we, my preciousssss......>

�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [35]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:50:04 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
References: 
O	<1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com><00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
'	<002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
2Message-ID: <00f701c30abc$3abdc2f0$fd00a8c0@mike>

Dave

KI rarely send a message to a list... and though I've been an ardent lurker
Bfor a while this may well be the first time I have written to it.

JYou may already have learned something from replies as to how to reply to
Mthe list. Simple enough to use "reply-all" etc but so many people don't know
it.

MMore seriously, on CSS, there is no way you will get better quality in-depth
LCSS info anywhere. Far in advance of (incompetent) table based Web-dev too.
FWriter's to the list have combined technical knowledge and experience
Eunequalled. Enormously helpful, almost always on topic, friendly and
Hrespectful. Better than books or formal study. Stay with it a while and
Hyou'll see what I mean, give yourself time to get the "feel" of all the
helpful characters involved.

HTH, and welcome.

Mike
Edinburgh, Scotland

L> I am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
J> resource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
 > replies. Not much use at all.
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [36]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:54:42 -0400
ISubject: [css-d] Helpfulness of the list (was Re:  Replying to the list)
3In-Reply-To: <007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>
7Message-ID: <007801c30abc$e3252e60$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



	> Dave :
<> I have not been around long enough to see that. I am not 
> saying people don't
?> help,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making 
> the information
6> harder to find. It is more of an assumption and an 
> observation after only a
> day of watching mind.


GJust a friendly suggestion Dave, hang out and give it a bit more time.
FWhat you don't see yet, and what impressed the hell outta me was just
>*how much* time some people here put into helping others with
Hworkarounds, helping with bug research, browser/os issues and the like.
BA lot of that help seems to happen on off time like after work or
Ebetween projects (I assume a lot of other people 'work' for a living
around here). 

EIf you take a cruise through the archives, it'll become obvious that
Isome of those answers and suggestions take a LONG time just to formulate
Ibefore it makes it to the list.  I say obvious because of the sheer size
"and complexity of some of them.  

EGo through and look at some of the replies from Holly Bergevin... At
Itimes she's reproduced entire pages with full code and original graphics
Hjust to help someone with their trouble.  And she's not the only one, I
Hdon't mean to exclude anyone, she's just the first that came to memory.
GPersonally, I can't figure out where some of these kind people get the
time!

CMany times people will solve their own problem that was previously
Eposted to the list and are kind enough to say "I figured it out, and
here's how..."

HDon't forget, many subscribe as Digest Mode, so they only get one email
Ea day, not every single one.  This slows down the process a bit too.

HYMMV, but I looked for a while JUST for this kind of help and this kind
Gof discussion, and while there are some other nice places out there, I
Hreally think, bang-for-the-buck, you just can't beat this list for this
particular issue. :)

--Josh


�13:43:45.580 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [37]
=================
;From: css-discuss at plumlee.org (css-discuss@plumlee.org)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:22:43 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
<Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030424201237.00bbd7c0@plumlee.org>

LI've been trying to use the excellent layouts provided by Alex Robinson to 
;cure a layout with Mac IE problems.  Ran across something 
Minteresting/infuriating and I'm hoping that someone here can either explain 
6it to me or point me in the direction of a known bug.

CUsing this layout, I tried to set up a page with a fixed width of 
.762px.  Left column is 120px, right is 145px.
�http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml?order=213&width_one=50&width_two=120&width_three=145&wrap_width=762&column_gutter=0&column_vertical_padding=0&column_horizontal_padding=0&columns_background=1&border_surround=0&body_padding=0&longest_column=one&controls=1&show_style=0

LLooks great in Mozilla and Opera.  If I try to place an image in the right 
Jhand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE 
5refuses to display the content in that third column.

HShorten the length of the image by 4px, and it displays.  Lengthen the 
Loverall length of the container div by 4px, it displays.  It looks like IE 
Kis placing a a 4px padding around the image.  Tried setting it to display 
&inline and block, no luck either way.

IBut if I float the image left or right, IE 6 works perfectly.  I've run 
Lacross problems where IE 6 collapses padding and margins when elements are 
Jadjacent to floated elements, so it seems that I'm taking advantage of a 
hack here.

Any thoughts?

Scott Plumlee
JPGP Public key: http://plumlee.org/pgp/   D64C 47D9 B855 5829 D22A  D390 
F8E2 9B58 9CBF 1F8D
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [38]
=================
0From: earthwrk at earthlink.net (Bill Scheider)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:00:41 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <00f701c30abc$3abdc2f0$fd00a8c0@mike>
BMessage-ID: <MABBLFKKJOFHOKMHGDFOKEEOCPAA.earthwrk@earthlink.net>

	Hi Mike,

9I totally agree with you RE the quality of the CSS info.

MIt's not only better than books but many of the folks discussing CSS on this
:list have /written/ the books! It doesn't get any better.

Bill
G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [39]
=================
,From: john at evolt.org.uk (John Handelaar)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 03:09:36 +0100
NSubject: ADMIN: End of thread, please. (was RE: [css-d] Replying to the list,
	and others)
CIn-Reply-To: <MABBLFKKJOFHOKMHGDFOKEEOCPAA.earthwrk@earthlink.net>
=Message-ID: <HNEPIHIKGMNGPEJJCMGMGEGACGAA.john@evolt.org.uk>


3My apologies to those who were wondering where the
 stand-in listmom went to today.

0It's time to stop this thread, I think, in the 
4interest of maintaining our regular signal-to-noise
ratio.

1Eric's position on header munging is very clear,
.and the relevant explanation on the wiki was 
posted earlier this afternoon.

3That wiki post also makes it abundantly clear that
3the place to drag this up (since it's clearly off-
-topic) is in private mail to the list owner.

-Eric will be back in a couple of weeks.  I'd
2appreciate not getting mail on the subject during
4his absence since I'm certainly not about to change
5the list settings without being able to consult him.

3I hope that I don't have to enforce this tomorrow,

folks :-)

Thanks for your attention.

John H
Server admin
,On behalf of the currently-absent Mr Meyer.

+------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

+T +44 20 8459 4923       M +44 7930 681789
+F +44 870 169 7657   E john@userfrenzy.com
+------------------------------------------
:From chris at placenamehere.com  Fri Apr 25 04:26:50 2003
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:26:50 -0400
CSubject: [css-d] [ANNC] PNH Developer Toolbar for Mozilla/Netscape
6In-Reply-To: <BAC2D566.52680%chris@placenamehere.com>
5Message-ID: <BACE233A.5380F%chris@placenamehere.com>

Eon 4/16/03 9:39 AM, Chris Casciano at chris@placenamehere.com wrote:

L> Since the cat is out of the bag already I figured I'd pass along the word
?> that I've released a toolbar add on for web developers using
> Mozilla/Netscape.
> 

1v0.51 is here! you firebird users get your wish!

%http://placenamehere.com/pnhtoolbar/

"Change Log for v0.51 (from v0.50)
F* Added a Firebird/Phoenix compatible installer w/ minor link changes
!* Added encoding of complex URLs
* Fixed a few typos
)* Added submission the W3C P3P Validator
)* Added Link to the DevEdge Sidebar Tabs

8Grab it now! Feedback to moz@placenamehere.com, please.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [40]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:08 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
5Message-ID: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>

1Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
MS> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
KS> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
)S> stylesheets, there would be no break.

GSince this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
(for the methods described by Seb and I:
!http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [41]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:25:09 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] Select first LI of an UL
>In-Reply-To: <F552B577-74D1-11D7-B5E8-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
=References: <F552B577-74D1-11D7-B5E8-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
3Message-ID: <12059885896.20030424222509@attbi.com>

6Arlen wrote on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 at 9:51:54 AM:

> li {font-weight: bold;}
> li + li {font-weight:normal}

B> [...] When it fails, the entire list will be bolded, so perhaps
?> you'll want to combine it with a hack that screens out those
1> browsers from seeing the initial bold styling.

CThis should have a better success rate, and it's not really a hack
;(i.e., it makes common sense, even if it is a bit longer):

    ul>li{font-weight:bold}
!    ul>li+li{font-weight:normal}

@There aren't many browsers that support child selectors without
'supporting adjacent sibling selectors.

-- 
John Lewis
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [42]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:22:54 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] lists line height
7In-Reply-To: <014101c30931$efd61ca0$6001a8c0@felwithe>
3References: <000001c30930$2a93df00$42d5fea9@Estes>
+ <014101c30931$efd61ca0$6001a8c0@felwithe>
2Message-ID: <8263351585.20030424232254@attbi.com>

7Brandy wrote on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 at 7:47:37 PM:

$> http://clients.mediadiva.net/css/

C> The links on the left bottom side, I have the line height set to
E> 120, and I like how it looks, but I thought it was possible to set
?> the height between each LI element and then the height of an
G> individual LI element itself. This way links the run over to 2 lines
)> will look like 1 link and not 2 links.

'> Anyone know what I am talking about?

BYes. Although it took me a while to understand. :) If you want to
Cretain the line-height but have the links' background-color remain
G"together" over multiple lines, I think you'll need to use padding-top
3and padding-bottom on the a elements. For example:

    ul li a{padding:.2em 0}

CShould do the trick. You may also consider this, depending on your
0needs, but I doubt it will be more appropriate:

    ul>li a{padding:.2em 0}

$Support isn't as good, at any rate.

-- 
John Lewis
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [43]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:18:01 -0500
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
4In-Reply-To: <000001c30a0f$5ab9d060$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
3References: <000001c30a0f$5ab9d060$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
3Message-ID: <14863058716.20030424231801@attbi.com>

9Aleem wrote on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 at 10:12:35 PM:

D> When I said semantic, I wasn't looking for a response along these
G> lines, but rather something which went beyond - example: by default,
F> does the body have a margin of ~10px from the frame or a padding of
D> 10px within? Is either semantically correct? In publishing, pages
C> don't have a frame (chrome) and since electronic publishing is a
D> derivative of print, I would go with padding instead of margin on
> that one.

ACSS agrees with you. <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/sample.html>

AI don't think it's possible to make a case for margin, if you're
Efamiliar with the spec. Of course that's what most browsers use. The
Eabove sample style sheet is just a suggestion, which is a good thing
	overall.

-- 
John Lewis
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [44]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:23:38 -0500
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
0In-Reply-To: <3EA750F0.4020602@adelaide.edu.au>
3References: <000601c309f6$2e39ca90$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
$ <3EA750F0.4020602@adelaide.edu.au>
1Message-ID: <663395931.20030424232338@attbi.com>

8Steve wrote on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 at 9:50:24 PM:

?> <aside> Seems to me that many posts to this list are readily
@> answered by reference to the CSS2 spec. OK, it's not the most
G> readable spec in the world, and sometimes you need to read something
E> two or three times before you get it, but, it is worth reading. If
E> you haven't got it, get it. Mine is on my desk, or nearby, all the
> time. </aside>

-Those types of questions aren't discouraged.
+<http://www.css-discuss.org/policies.html>

FYour advice is nonetheless helpful, of course. I think what we really
Gneed is a comprehensive "spec for dummies," a document that deals with
CCSS2 as simply as possible, written for CSS authors instead of CSS
Fimplementors. A basic CSS vocabulary tutorial alone would be amazing;
Eeven veteran authors fudge their technospeak jargon. I think most of
Dthe CSS2 spec is pretty readable nowadays, but a couple years ago I
!was confused by simple passages.

-- 
John Lewis
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [45]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:24:35 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
6In-Reply-To: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
*	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
/Message-ID: <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>

Steve Clay wrote:
3> Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
O> S> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
M> S> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
+> S> stylesheets, there would be no break.
> 
I> Since this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
*> for the methods described by Seb and I:
#> http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks

Nice page!

I notice you used

	white-space:pre-line;

 whereas the CSS2 spec at W3 has

	white-space:pre;

"Is this something new? Or a typo?


:I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using 
Awhitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in 
9the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

@<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
#   <meta http-equiv="content-type"
+  content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
/   <meta name="author" content="Steve Thomas">
   <title>Test</title>
   <style type="text/css">
      h1 { text-align: center; }
"     h1#pref { white-space:pre; }
   </style>
</head>
<body>
#<h1 id="pref">Dr. Strangelove,<br>
or:<br>
6How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb</h1>
<p>Blah blah blah</p>
</body>
</html>

AOn browsers which don't implement whitespace, this will degrade 
Anicely. Those that do will display the heading precisely as you 
@want. (With the caveat that whitespace:pre will keep each line 
:as given, even with narrow windows, requiring scrolling.)

AAbove all, this preserves the semantic integrity of the heading 
*intact, without the need to embed coding.


Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.581 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [46]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:00:58 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
6Message-ID: <0C1E480F.3B3D924D.009CE500@netscape.net>

css-discuss@plumlee.org wrote:

$>layouts provided by Alex Robinson 

�>http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml?order=213&width_one=50&width_two=120&width_three=145&wrap_width=762&column_gutter=0&column_vertical_padding=0&column_horizontal_padding=0&columns_background=1&border_surround=0&body_padding=0&longest_column=one&controls=1&show_style=0

*>If I try to place an image in the right 
M>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6. �IE 
6>refuses to display the content in that third column.

�Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the size of the image. Is it possible you have a page you could put up so your specific case can be looked at? That would make it easier to give specific suggestions instead of theoritical ones.

�As for hacks for IE, (and other browsers as needed), in my opinion, they are inevitable. As long as they validate, and don't mess something up for another browser (that cannot be worked around) you're probably going to have to use some. 

�However, I always try to see if I can write/fix a page in such a way as to use the least number possible. What that means is if IE6 needs to have and image floated to work, and floating that image doesn't bother other browsers, I write it so the image is floated and move on to something else. 

Now, about that URL...

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
4From gleemax at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 06:10:45 2003
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:10:45 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
0In-Reply-To: <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
M <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org> <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
3Message-ID: <12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>

8Steve wrote on Thursday, April 24, 2003 at 11:54:35 PM:

 >         white-space:pre-line;

$> Is this something new? Or a typo?

8It's new in CSS 2.1, which is not yet a recommendation:
8<http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/text.html#white-space-prop>

-- 
John Lewis
�13:43:45.582 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.582 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.582 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [47]
=================
,From: gavin at refinery.com (Gavin Kistner)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:21:43 -0600
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
@Message-ID: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>

EForgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the 
<browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
0http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

CMy expectation was for the way Camino/Mozilla did it to be right. 
F(Under the assumption that 100% was based off of the 'standard' line 
Fheight, and hence >100% should result in increased line spacing, not 
decreased.)

HBut now the spec seems to imply that something like Safari may be more 
Ecorrect. I'm just...very unused to Mozilla getting something wrong. 
I(Camino is built off of the Mozilla 1.0 trunk, IIRC, but the appearance 
is the same in 1.2.1 also.)
�13:43:45.582 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.582 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.582 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [48]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:06:24 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
M	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org> <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
(	<12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA8C958.2010405@adelaide.edu.au>

John Lewis wrote:
:> Steve wrote on Thursday, April 24, 2003 at 11:54:35 PM:
> 
> 
 >>        white-space:pre-line;
> 
> 
$>>Is this something new? Or a typo?
> 
> 
:> It's new in CSS 2.1, which is not yet a recommendation:
9> <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/text.html#white-space-prop
> 

@Thanks. And amazingly, although not yet even a recommendation, 
 it works! (In Moz 1.2.1 anyway)

AI guess on reflection, that gives you an insight into how these 
0standards are generated in the first place. :-)

	Regards,
Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
�13:43:45.582 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.582 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.585 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [49]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:47:25 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Path Positioning Problem.
6Message-ID: <02A69262.14063CDB.009CE500@netscape.net>

5"Will Boyett" <WBoyett@smtp.co.alachua.fl.us> wrote:

I>Hello all, I'm still rather new to this list, and so appologize for any
>faux pas on my part.

Hi Will - Welcome to the list.

>here is my dilema:
>
H>I am trying to make a local path statement in a bar, with a link to my
L>site map on the right margin of the same bar. �So far, so good. However,
E>my Site Map link keeps overlapping the text of my path statement on
>narrow monitors, 
[snip]

�Now I have to apologize, because even with your explanation and the code you provided, you lost me. Is it possible for you to provide a URL to the page in question so we can give it a look see? If the content is restricted, strip it out and replace it with dummy text. Working with the actual page generally offers the best opportunity for someone to provide helpful advice.

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
8From holnkids at netscape.net  Fri Apr 25 07:04:05 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:04:05 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
6Message-ID: <69589F46.5F9A91EF.009CE500@netscape.net>

#Donna m87 <dm87@rogers.com> wrote:

H>I have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
H>header, content and footer. �When the content increases, the footer 
>is overwritten.
>
D>How can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
D>volume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?
>
G>What sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

aHi Donna - Have you seen the wiki pages about different layout options? The main page is here - 
0http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts

�There are links to several other wiki pages from the above page that discuss the merits and difficulties of various types of layouts as well as links to outside sources. 

�In addition, Bob Easton has assembled a very nice collection of links to 3-column-layouts (with notes about the techniques used on each) - 
8http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ThreeColumnLayouts

gIf you don't need that many columns, many 3-column layouts can be adjusted to work with fewer columns.

HTH,

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Fri Apr 25 09:18:24 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:18:24 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051243530.20492@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051258707.23490@tweek.sebduggan.com>


JThanks Steve - I couldn't have explained it better myself (and, indeed, I
didn't...).

Seb


&> From: Steve Clay <steve@mrclay.org>
*> Reply-To: Steve Clay <steve@mrclay.org>
(> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:08 -0400
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
3> Subject: Re: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
> 
> 
3> Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
O> S> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
M> S> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
+> S> stylesheets, there would be no break.
> 
I> Since this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
*> for the methods described by Seb and I:
#> http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks
> 
> Steve
> -- 
> http://mrclay.org/
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 

�13:43:45.585 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.585 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [50]
=================
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:22:35 +0100
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
2Message-ID: <1051262556.1547@tweek.sebduggan.com>


:Is there any way to set the minimum height of an element?

LThere is the CSS2 property min-height, but it only seems to be supported in
MOpera 6+ and Gecko/Mozilla browsers - no versions of IE, or the current beta
(of Safari (although it may come later).

JSo, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x pixels
Lhigh, while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary? (And before
Lsomeone suggests it, I don't intend putting a 1px x 400px gif in my page ;)


Seb

�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [51]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:28:02 +0200
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

E> So, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x
pixels high,=20
:while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary?
GIn IE on PC, it will expand if you have set the height to 20px and its
content is bigger...
FHowever, you can't use min-height and height in conjunction for Gecko
etc.

So, for IE on PC, use this:

height:20px;

0and for standrads-compliant browsers, use this:

min-height:20px;


/Robert
1From rijk at opera.com  Fri Apr 25 10:46:42 2003
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:46:42 +0200
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
MReferences: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
)Message-ID: <oprn6ir4x6yoq9u9@localhost>

LOn Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:28:02 +0200, Robert Nyman <robert.nyman@centus.com> 
wrote:

F>> So, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x
J>> pixels high, while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary?

I> In IE on PC, it will expand if you have set the height to 20px and its
> content is bigger...
H> However, you can't use min-height and height in conjunction for Gecko
> etc.
>
> So, for IE on PC, use this:
>
> height:20px;
2> and for standrads-compliant browsers, use this:
> min-height:20px;

For example like this:

$div {height:20px; min-height:20px;}
html>body div {height:auto;}

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
@ making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com M
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [52]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:59:02 +0100
ISubject: [css-d] safari and mac IE5 hacks or alternative layout solution
	needed
0Message-ID: <3EA906E6.1010304@starskiweb.co.uk>

Hi All

JI need some help with this conversion from a table layout to a tableless 
layout. This is it so far:-

:http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/3_col_margin_border.htm

GI have a fixed width 3 column layout with a liquid header and footer. 
HColumns 2 and 3 have their own header. I have tried various solutions, 
Cbut currently I have 2 main floating columns, the second of which 
Econtains two floating sub columns. I have used a top margin to push 
Jthese two sub columns down and have an absolutely positioned heading for 
Jthese columns. The center and right columns need a border so this was my 
.main reason for wrapping them in another div.

EThis works on PC IE5 and 6, Mozilla 1.3, but safari (not sure which 
Mversion) the footer wont stay put and and IE5 mac the main column drifts up.

HThis doesn't need to support Netscape 4 - I will be hiding most of the 
styling from that.

--
Rick Hurst
http://hypothecate.co.uk
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [53]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:48:47 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
6In-Reply-To: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
*	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
/Message-ID: <3EA90B87.3010409@adelaide.edu.au>

>Arrgghh! Apologies to all, my HTML editor mangled my example 
Bcode, which should of course NOT have <br> tags in the middle of 
:the header. Here's the corrected version (at the risk of 
prolonging the bordom):

...

9I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
@whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
9the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

@<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
$    <meta http-equiv="content-type"
,   content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
0    <meta name="author" content="Steve Thomas">
    <title>Test</title>
    <style type="text/css">
!      h1 { text-align: center; }
#      h1#pref { white-space:pre; }
    </style>
</head>
<body>
<h1 id="pref">Dr. Strangelove,
or:
6How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb</h1>
<p>Blah blah blah</p>
</body>
</html>

@On browsers which don't implement whitespace, this will degrade
@nicely. Those that do will display the heading precisely as you
?want. (With the caveat that whitespace:pre will keep each line
:as given, even with narrow windows, requiring scrolling.)

@Above all, this preserves the semantic integrity of the heading
*intact, without the need to embed coding.

<(And no, whitespace:pre-line; doesn't work in Moz1.2.1/PC.)


8Hopefully that makes more sense than the previous post.


Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [54]
=================
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:06 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051266048.25755@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051268466.27913@tweek.sebduggan.com>


6> From: Steve Thomas <stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au>
>....
;> I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
B> whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
;> the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

MVery nice Steve - this seems to be the most elegant solution so far - and it
2seems to work in every browser I've thrown it at!

(I'll be changing my own code to this...


Seb

�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [55]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:00:13 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
AIn-Reply-To: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
3Message-ID: <16087194233.20030425060013@attbi.com>

6Gavin wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 12:21:43 AM:

2> http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

D> My expectation was for the way Camino/Mozilla did it to be right.
G> (Under the assumption that 100% was based off of the 'standard' line
G> height, and hence >100% should result in increased line spacing, not
> decreased.)

BThe suggested default line-height value is between 1 and 1.2, but
Athere is no rule saying browsers need to follow it. Any value is
Facceptable according to CSS2. That means it's impossible to determine
Gif a value greater than 100% will be bigger, smaller, or the same. All
:this without taking crazy user style sheets into account!

FAfter reading CSS2, playing with line-height in Opera 7.1 and Mozilla
G1.4a, and comparing renderings for far too long, I'm stumped. I really
Fhave very little idea of how the inline box model and line-height are
Gsupposed to work. For the most part, with identical values Mozilla and
FOpera returned similar and even identical results. That's comforting.
GFor some reason, Mozilla doesn't behave anything like Camino. At first
EI thought my test page was strange; then I visited your page and the
EMozilla result look basically identical to Opera and Safari. I can't
Dexplain the Mac IE or Camino results. I don't expect line-height to
5behave like that, but I'm pretty weak on the theory.

8The shoddiness of the Win IE rendering is self-evident.

BI'd be interested to see if anyone knows or can figure out why my
AMozilla and your Camino rendering look so different. I don't use
BMozilla much, so I haven't changed anything but the default font.

-- 
John Lewis
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [56]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:11:04 +0200
OSubject: [css-d] Tip: How to add a rule with script and use the Box Model Hack
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D2@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

ITo use the Box Model hack in script, you need to add an extra backslash,
Hsince JavaScript interprets the first one for string escape purposes...

	Example:

6oStyleSheet.addRule("div.levelItem", "height:22px;");
8oStyleSheet.addRule("div.levelItem", "he\\ight:20px;");


/Robert
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Fri Apr 25 12:23:06 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:23:06 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D3@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

<Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only,
(which browsers are the most common etc?


/Robert
8From rick at starskiweb.co.uk  Fri Apr 25 13:10:08 2003
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:10:08 +0100
3Subject: [css-d] how do I hide style from Mac IE5?
0Message-ID: <3EA925A0.4080609@starskiweb.co.uk>

FI've made some progress with my liquid header and footer/fixed width 
Jcolumns layout problem and now my only real concern is the IE5 mac mess:-

)http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v6.htm

>so what I want now is just a hack to hide styles from mac IE5

cheers

--
Rick Hurst
http://hypothecate.co.uk
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [57]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:09:11 +0200
3Subject: [css-d] how do I hide style from Mac IE5?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052DC@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

@> so what I want now is just a hack to hide styles from mac IE5
8http://www.sam-i-am.com/testsuite/css/mac_ie5_hack.html

/Robert
3From dmead at optiem.com  Fri Apr 25 13:21:47 2003
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:21:47 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] Hyperlink position in NN4.7
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E928D@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

Hi all,

EI've only joined the list yesterday and I already have a question to
pose.

GI'm designing a web site that has to be "viewable" down to NN4.7.  I'm
Iusing table with some CSS to style content in the cells etc.  My problem
	is this.

EMy footer nav runs nicely along the bottom (shortened version here):

  <div class=3D"footernav">=20
0  <p>&nbsp;<a href=3D"#">MENU</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a
#href=3D"#">LOCATIONS&nbsp;</a></p>
	  </div>

with the CSS code:

E  .footernav { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
G8px; color: #FEAC22; text-decoration: none; background-color: #7B0808;
padding: 5px 10px; }
H  .footernav a:link { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:
E#FEAC22; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px; background-color:
transparent; }
D  .footernav a:visited { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
:color: #FEAC22; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px;
 background-color: transparent;}
I  .footernav a:hover { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:
E#FFFFFF; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px; background-color:
transparent; }

=It looks fine in IE but when viewed in NN4.7 the links stack
Hone-on-top-of-another instead of side-by-side!  I've created a separate
Fstyle sheet for NN and removed the padding from the CSS code and this
Fbunches them all up (hence the two &nbsp; between links).  Is there a
)way around this or is this the best fix.

FI did a quick check through the archives but didn't turn anything up.
FApologies if the code is a little sloppy but I'm still finding my CSS
feet so to speak.

Many thanks,

Dave
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.586 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [58]
=================
4From: larz at cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Ryan La Riviere)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:38:54 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] New CSS2 Site - XHTML 1.0
7In-Reply-To: <006f01c30920$b0d61750$6001a8c0@felwithe>
6Message-ID: <BACE968E.27D21%larz@cbis.ece.drexel.edu>

JOn 04/22/2003 18:44, "Brandy (mediadiva)" <fortuneb@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> who did?
> 
>> 
1>> Yea...spelled Cingular wrong on the file.  :/

JMe on the screenshot's file name I had uploaded...I should have specified
the "I" part.

-Ryan

-- 
Mr. Ryan La Riviere
6Project Manager; Mechanical Engineering and Mechanics
*College of Engineering; Drexel University
Philadelphia, PA 19104

*hp: http://staff.tdec.drexel.edu/~edljedi
IM (AIM, Yahoo, MSN): edljedi
w: 215.895.6460
<Geek Code: http://staff.tded.drexel.edu/~edljedi/geeksville

HOne thing the hardware engineers just can't seem to get the bugs out of
is... fresh paint.
�13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [59]
=================
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:51:43 +0000
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>



=>Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only,
)>which browsers are the most common etc?

+My own stats, for what they're worth, say:

Ecxplorer 5    69%
Safari         15%
Mozilla         6%
Netscape 6      4%
Netscape 4      4%
Explorer 4      2%

NNote that these numbers are mainly from my development sites which attract a 
7higher share of non-IE browsers than the average site.

IWhichever stats you'll find, please keep in mind that Safari's share is 
Igoing to rise dramatically when it becomes the default browser for OS X.

GAny Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and 
Safari.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
;MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
)http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
�13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [60]
=================
;From: css-discuss at plumlee.org (css-discuss@plumlee.org)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:54:17 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
7In-Reply-To: <0C1E480F.3B3D924D.009CE500@netscape.net>
<Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030425084249.00b5a738@plumlee.org>

(At 01:00 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:

+ >>If I try to place an image in the right
L >>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE
8 >>refuses to display the content in that third column.
 >
L >Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I
N >could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending
M >on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the
M >size of the image. Is it possible you have a page you could put up so your
M >specific case can be looked at? That would make it easier to give specific
+ >suggestions instead of theoritical ones.

6thank you for the response.  I've placed a page here:
Lhttp://wgi.org/2003/indexmac2.php where you can copy the code and watch it 
Hhappen.  Allow the float, works in IE.  Remove the float, doesn't show.

MWith the float: left in place for the img tag, it display correctly in IE 6 
>and Mozilla and Opera 7.10.  Without it, it vanishes in IE 6.

JAgain, many thinks to Alex Robinson for all the work on the page, and to 
Kthe other contributors (including Holly, I believe) that are listed there.

M >However, I always try to see if I can write/fix a page in such a way as to
M >use the least number possible. What that means is if IE6 needs to have and
F >image floated to work, and floating that image doesn't bother other
N >browsers, I write it so the image is floated and move on to something else.

JI appreciate the advice.  I think I might have a "immovable object meets 
>the irresistible force" complex about this problem right now.
�13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [61]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:57:14 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052E0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

Interesting!
GEspecially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
!dramatically increase later on).
IHave you seen any pattern when it comes to versions of IE, i.e. 5.0, 5.1
	and 5.2?


/Robert


-----Original Message-----
<From: Peter-Paul Koch [mailto:gassinaumasis@hotmail.com]=20
Sent: den 25 april 2003 14:52
.To: Robert Nyman; css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
4Subject: Re: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?




F>Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only, which=20
#>browsers are the most common etc?

+My own stats, for what they're worth, say:

Ecxplorer 5    69%
Safari         15%
Mozilla         6%
Netscape 6      4%
Netscape 4      4%
Explorer 4      2%

CNote that these numbers are mainly from my development sites which
attract a=20
7higher share of non-IE browsers than the average site.

KWhichever stats you'll find, please keep in mind that Safari's share is=20
Igoing to rise dramatically when it becomes the default browser for OS X.

IAny Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and=20
Safari.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
4http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/ Column "Keep it Simple":
1http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
=MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.=20
+http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/virus
�13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [62]
=================
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:14:06 +0000
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>


>Interesting!
H>Especially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
">dramatically increase later on).

AMy Safari stats are especially unreliable because I posted some 
LSafari-related material pretty soon after the beta was released. Naturally 
Hgeeky Safari users first take a look at sites discussing their beloved 
	browser.

LFor the non-geeky sites I keep track of the score is between 2 and 10 % of 
4all Mac users (and I find that 10% strangely high).

K>Have you seen any pattern when it comes to versions of IE, i.e. 5.0, 5.1 

>and 5.2?

Nope.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
>Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 
,http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
�13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.587 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [63]
=================
5From: WBoyett at smtp.co.alachua.fl.us (Will Boyett)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:56:18 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Path Positioning Problem.
1Message-ID: <sea90654.037@smtp.co.alachua.fl.us>

Holly et all;

GFirst off, let me say that I recieved an off-list reply from Jason Van
FPelt which has not only served as the foundation for my correction of
Dthe issue I was having, but has also served to illuminate whole new
Iaspects of CSS which I only dimly understood before... a classic example
Cof a working example being worth volumes of technical explanation.

DThat said, I would be happy to provide a link to the site, and I do
Iwelcome other construcitve commentary. My goal/directive is to provide a
Every accessible site using CSS layout, and favoring a "Red White and
IBlue" palette.  I have inherited a lot of code from previous webmasters,
Eand as the redesign is only one of my job duties, I have not had the
Itime to devote to removing all of the older legacy elements to date. The
Imain page (which does not use the path statement I wrote for help on) is
in my signature.

Chttp://elections.alachua.fl.us/welcome.html is one of the pages in
Hwhich the code can be seen. The "problem code" was the red outlined box
Hwith the path statement and the site map link. It now has new code, and
works as originally intended.


William Dove Boyett
#Alachua County Elections Webmaster
"http://elections.co.alachua.fl.us
8-------------------------------------------------------
!"The user owns the Back button."
4-- Dr. Jakob Nielsen, http://www.useit.com/alertbox

@>>> Holly Bergevin <holnkids@netscape.net> 04/25/03 01:47AM >>>
[snip snip]
DNow I have to apologize, because even with your explanation and the
Hcode you provided, you lost me. Is it possible for you to provide a URL
Hto the page in question so we can give it a look see? If the content is
Frestricted, strip it out and replace it with dummy text. Working with
Ethe actual page generally offers the best opportunity for someone to
provide helpful advice.

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
1http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380 

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
9http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 
G______________________________________________________________________
+css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] 
3http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d 
DSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ 


.Inbound Mail Scanned by Mcafee Web Appliance.




/OutBound Mail Scanned by Mcafee Web Appliance.

�13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [64]
=================
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:13:00 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741F4@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

EI have the following style, which "works" in all browsers outside of
Netscape 4.76:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
  background-color: #FFE;
  border-top:  1px solid #EEE;
  border-left: 1px solid #EEE;
!  border-bottom: 1px solid #333;
!  border-right:  1px solid #777;
}

DNetscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:

  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;

KRemove them and all's well with the world, include either and it generates
errors and closes.

LAny way around this outside of creating a special style sheet for Netscape?

	Thanks -

george
�13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [65]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:21:40 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <46.381a3fa4.2bda9e74@aol.com>



LFirst I'd like to say this list has been an excellent resource to me, and I
 think everyone else will agree.


OBut I'd like to point out that lately list posters seem to be blindly posting 
to the
Llist. What I mean is, People might be forgetting that some email providers 
Olike the one I use (AOL) actually interpret HTML tags in email. Which means I 

don't see
Lthem in the context of the message, I see it as if I were reading the post 
through
a browser window.


EWhen you refer to [b] tag I see the rest of the message in bold text
Junless you use the closing [/b] tag. Oh, and try reading a message with a
heading tag in it.


MNow don't get me wrong, I don't mean to chastise the list, but this does get
>annoying. So please accept my apologies if I offended anyone.



Thank You
Curt
>From Michael_Landis at capgroup.com  Fri Apr 25 15:38:57 2003
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:38:57 -0700
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
CMessage-ID: <OFCBF69188.A61F3A48-ON88256D13.004F8FB1@capgroup.com>


George Smyth wrote:

G> I have the following style, which "works" in all browsers outside of
> Netscape 4.76:

> .NavText {
>   font-size: 0.7em;
>   text-align: left;
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;
>   background-color: #FFE;
!>   border-top:  1px solid #EEE;
!>   border-left: 1px solid #EEE;
#>   border-bottom: 1px solid #333;
#>   border-right:  1px solid #777;
> }
>
F> Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
>
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;

INetscape 4 tends to act like the proverbial straw-carrying camel. We all
Gknow it is buggy to one extent or another, but each bug-tripping style
Kdeclaration seems to add a little bit more to its instability. If too many
Kbuggy declarations (that is, valid CSS that causes bugs in NS 4) appear in
Kthe CSS, it will hang, crash, and otherwise let you down when it hits that
final straw.

IIf you don't want to switch stylesheets, you might want to resort to the
HCiao NS4-hiding hack (http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CaioHack) to
Kremove enough styles to let it limp along. You may want to hide additional
;ones, so that you aren't right at the edge of instability.

KAnother alternative is to link a stylesheet that only contains styles that
Lare solid with NS 4, then import a second sheet that adds additional styles
for "good" browsers.

HTH,

MikeL
�13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [66]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:45:34 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] Hyperlink position in NN4.7
CMessage-ID: <OF642D1E9C.73522B52-ON88256D13.0050CA54@capgroup.com>


Dave Mead wrote:

G> My footer nav runs nicely along the bottom (shortened version here):

[snip]

?> It looks fine in IE but when viewed in NN4.7 the links stack
J> one-on-top-of-another instead of side-by-side!  I've created a separate
H> style sheet for NN and removed the padding from the CSS code and this
H> bunches them all up (hence the two &nbsp; between links).  Is there a
+> way around this or is this the best fix.

GAs you have discovered, adding padding or margins to an inline element
Hconverts it to a block element in NS 4. I haven't seen a workaround for
this.

Sorry for the bad news! :-)

MikeL
�13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [67]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:44:47 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD7@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

George Smyth wrote:
F> Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
>=20
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;
>=20
@> Remove them and all's well with the world, include either and
"> it generates errors and closes.

HYou can remove "width: auto" safely (unless a width is being inherited)
)and/or you can use Caio's Hack, like so:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
/*/*/
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
/**/
  background-color: #FFE;
  border:  1px solid #EEE;
  border-bottom-color: #333;
  border-right-color: :#777;
}

5(Note: I just shortened your border styles slightly)

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
3From ken at kpmartin.com  Fri Apr 25 16:09:05 2003
'From: ken at kpmartin.com (Ken Martin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:09:05 -0500
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
@Message-ID: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>

FI checked the wiki and didn't see anything, though I suspect this is 
probably frequently asked.

HDoes PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if 
DI need to use it in tandem with other declarations or if it simply 
doesn't work.

TIA

Ken Martin
�13:43:45.640 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [68]
=================
 From: jgay at tla.com (Jim Gay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:17:07 -0400
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
,In-Reply-To: <46.381a3fa4.2bda9e74@aol.com>
)Message-ID: <BACEC9B3.6927%jgay@tla.com>

P> But I'd like to point out that lately list posters seem to be blindly posting
	> to the
M> list. What I mean is, People might be forgetting that some email providers
P> like the one I use (AOL) actually interpret HTML tags in email. Which means I
> don't see
M> them in the context of the message, I see it as if I were reading the post

> through
> a browser window.

HI'm new here, but looking at the policies, although it says no html/rtf
Kemail, I don't think that excludes any html code at all. I think its a bit
Lmuch to ask a list about code of a few hundred people to stop writing about
their code in some context.
Jperhaps the problem is in the AOL client rendering html when it shouldn't
4be? (are you set to receive Plain or MIME content?)

please correct me if I'm wrong
Jperhaps I need more clarity on the policy. should I exclude all html when
I'm next tempted to post?

-jim
�13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [69]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:30:24 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
7Message-ID: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

MDoes anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can change
the list-item-marker's color?

JI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

Anyone?

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

�13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [70]
=================
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:31:20 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ken Martin wrote:
I> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

B(Apologies if someone has answered this, my email is slow lately)

ANo support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
,<http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
&<http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
>From Dwayne.Conyers at veridian.com  Fri Apr 25 16:41:46 2003
7From: Dwayne.Conyers at veridian.com (Conyers, Dwayne)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:41:46 -0400
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
FMessage-ID: <E4C14A1BFBDD144490EAF53424176D6D11CF46@FCVAMAIL.mrj.com>

HI think enclosing code in <pre></pre> tags should alleviate that issue.

--
Dwacon
www.dwacon.com
<From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 25 16:46:49 2003
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:46:49 +0000
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F69qVDokSUIwMw0000d806@hotmail.com>

H> > Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
> >
> >   width: auto;
> >   padding: 2px;
> >
B> > Remove them and all's well with the world, include either and
$> > it generates errors and closes.
>
I>You can remove "width: auto" safely (unless a width is being inherited)
*>and/or you can use Caio's Hack, like so:

LWhile that is certainly true, my guess is that the border declarations are 
Iactually the problem. NN4 has a long and nasty history of problems with 
	borders.

7Try your original style sheet, but change the borders:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
  background-color: #FFE;
  border: 1px solid #EEE;
  border-bottom-color: #333;
  border-right-color:  #777;
}

GIn a few similar cases I found that using the shorthand notations for 
L'border-left', 'border-right' etc. (though not for 'border' itself) causes 
NN4 problems.

?But maybe I'm wrong and this is an entirely different problem.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
;MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
)http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
�13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [71]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:47:11 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
,Message-ID: <199.194e6936.2bdab27f@aol.com>

NIn a message dated 4/25/2003 11:17:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, jgay@tla.com 
writes:


5>be? (are you set to receive Plain or MIME content?)


DI only use AOL for a connection to the Internet and to receive mail
Aso I really don't no how to set that, or even if I can with AOL.

 >please correct me if I'm wrong
K>perhaps I need more clarity on the policy. should I exclude all html when
>I'm next tempted to post?

HNo, the tags that effect my mail are heading, bold, italics, typewriter
Ktype, paragraphs, break, and such that refer specifically to font control.

IUL, li, span, div, and others that refer to structure and css don't get 

rendered.
(I see the tag itself, not it's effects.

JBy the way, I didn't type the subject line. My brother did. I don't write
Ksubjects until I ready to send the mail. He tried to replicate the subject
Elines of the css mail program and didnt know it was do automatically
( thought it was funny)

Curt
7From gary at star-chaser.com  Fri Apr 25 17:01:57 2003
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:57 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
AIn-Reply-To: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>
@References: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA95BF5.4040005@star-chaser.com>

Ken Martin wrote:
H> I checked the wiki and didn't see anything, though I suspect this is 
> probably frequently asked.
> 
L> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if I 
L> need to use it in tandem with other declarations or if it simply doesn't 
> work.
> 

HIt only supports position:fixed on backgrounds. You can get it to work 
in two ways.

Javascript
*http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html

conditional comments
"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

HTH
Gary

-- 
Gary Bland
StarChaser Web Architecture
http://www.star-chaser.com
 Building Tomorrow's World Today

The Nemesis Project
http://nemesis1.f2o.org
One Stop CSS
�13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.641 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [72]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:04:44 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
6Message-ID: <556DFCA4.3DC753BE.009CE500@netscape.net>

("Jason Estes" <ckestes@bewb.org> wrote:

P>Does anyone know, I didn't see it in �the CSS spec, if or how you can change
>the list-item-marker's color?

WHi Jason - Did you try setting the color for the unordered list and/or the list items?
ul, li {color: #800080}

/My quick test worked on IE6, Moz and Op7 WinXP

HTH,

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
3From dmead at optiem.com  Fri Apr 25 17:02:56 2003
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:02:56 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E928E@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

FI achieved the effect I think you're after by calling the marker as a
graphic in my CSS file:=20

*   list-style-image: url(images/dot.gif);

Hope this helps.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
,From: Jason Estes [mailto:ckestes@bewb.org]
&Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:30 AM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color


FDoes anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can
change
the list-item-marker's color?

DI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my
text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

Anyone?

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
<From asparber at projectseven.com  Fri Apr 25 17:09:03 2003
0From: asparber at projectseven.com (Al Sparber)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:09:03 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
3Message-ID: <004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL>


Here're a couple more:
Ehttp://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
problematic on Mac)

Bhttp://www.flevooware.nl/dreamweaver/#PersistentLayers (scripted)

Al Sparber
?http://www.projectseven.com - Extensions | DW FAQs | Tutorials
9Co-Author: Dreamweaver MX: Building on Solid Foundations



From: "Saila, Craig"

Ken Martin wrote:
I> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

B(Apologies if someone has answered this, my email is slow lately)

ANo support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
,<http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
&<http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>


�13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [73]
=================
<From: Jason.Gennaro at jus.gov.on.ca (Gennaro, Jason (JUS))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:09:52 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
DMessage-ID: <419FB3B69D66D311AC120008C79138C0169906BD@JUS00AEX0315>


7On Friday, April 25, 2003 11:30 AM, Jason Estes wrote:

	<sniped>

JI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.


4Add the color to the ul and that should work, i.e.:

ul { color: blue }

,Worked for me in Moz 1.3 and IE 5.5 on W.2K

Jason
	
/From jgay at tla.com  Fri Apr 25 17:16:02 2003
 From: jgay at tla.com (Jim Gay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:16:02 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
8In-Reply-To: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
)Message-ID: <BACED782.692F%jgay@tla.com>

O> Does anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can change
 > the list-item-marker's color?
> 
L> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
;> but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
> 

2http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#lists

Iyou can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
Icorresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image
�13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [74]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:16:25 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
6Message-ID: <0CC778E0.33459481.009CE500@netscape.net>

%Ken Martin <ken@kpmartin.com> wrote:

$>Does PC IE support position:fixed?

8"Saila, Craig" <Craig.Saila@bgminteractive.com> wrote: 

B>No support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
-><http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
'><http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

�Hi Ken - In addition to Craig's JavaScript suggestions there is a way to emulate position: fixed for IE. It's been called the Bednarz hack or the Ghost hack. See -
"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

HTH,

~holly 

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Fri Apr 25 17:30:11 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:30:11 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
)References: <BACED782.692F%jgay@tla.com>
7Message-ID: <006e01c30b47$f1ed2520$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

K> you can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
K> corresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image
> 

=Technically I guess you could if you did something like this

B<li style="color:red"><span style="color:#000;">sdaf </span></li>

1then you end up with red bullets and black text.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org 

�13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [75]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:18:54 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
8In-Reply-To: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
7References: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
4Message-ID: <116106318348.20030425111854@attbi.com>

6Jason wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 10:30:24 AM:

G> Does anyone know, I didn't see it in the CSS spec, if or how you can
'> change the list-item-marker's color?

F> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my
A> text, but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

#If you're using generated content:

    li:before{color:#000}

DOtherwise I'd need to check. It may be unspecified, or it may match
Dthe list-item's color. I don't think there's a special way of doing
it, though.

-- 
John Lewis
�13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [76]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
AIn-Reply-To: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
LMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304250930390.2597-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

*On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Gavin Kistner wrote:

F> Forgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the
>> browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
2> http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

HThe 'default' value is pretty loose, such that actually pretty much all
the renderings are correct.

EHowever, having said that, the intention of the Mozilla guys is that
F'default' use the font's specified default line height, which I don't
Fthink works correctly on Mac (I know it doesn't work exactly right on

Windows).

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
3From cs03 at combonet.se  Fri Apr 25 17:35:51 2003
(From: cs03 at combonet.se (Christina S)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:35:51 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
.Message-ID: <BACF3018.53804%cs03@combonet.se>

JOn 03-04-25 17.31, "Saila, Craig" <Craig.Saila@bgminteractive.com> wrote:

> Ken Martin wrote:
J>> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

C> No support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
.> <http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
(> <http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

 Or with a nice little css-hack:
$<http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/>
Works as a charm.

DI think it is linked somewhere from the css-wiki? (or it should be)
 
/Christina
�13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.642 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [77]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:41:51 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
7In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>
6References: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>
3Message-ID: <p05210607bacf10e7b3c7@[152.3.174.98]>

>>Interesting!
I>>Especially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
#>>dramatically increase later on).
>
B>My Safari stats are especially unreliable because I posted some 
C>Safari-related material pretty soon after the beta was released. 
E>Naturally geeky Safari users first take a look at sites discussing 
>their beloved browser.
>
E>For the non-geeky sites I keep track of the score is between 2 and 
=>10 % of all Mac users (and I find that 10% strangely high).

GI work in academia with folks who are geeky, but not necessarily in a 
Gweb browser sort of way, but who are mostly Mac users.  Among the Mac 
Dpeople, a very large majority use IE 5 - about 72%, at last count. 
DThese are about evenly divided between 5.2+ on OSX and all others. 
>The next highest is NN4, at a scary 9%.  Safari has recently 
@overtaken gecko-based, with some early adopters giving me a 7% 
Dreading, while all geckos (NN6, NN7, all Mozillas and derivatives) 
=are another 6%.  IE4 has just 1%, and all others (including 
Cunidentified) account for the rest.  I have had exactly one Opera 
	visitor.

FAll this is after subtracting my own hits in development and all the 
AWindows people, including the hackers trying to get root.exe or 
Bcmd.exe to do something on my Mac server.  (Which always sort of 
makes me chuckle.)

-- 

-Adam Kuehn
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Fri Apr 25 17:57:25 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:57:25 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
DReferences: <419FB3B69D66D311AC120008C79138C0169906BD@JUS00AEX0315>
7Message-ID: <008c01c30b4b$bfe56340$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
;> but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
>
>
6> Add the color to the ul and that should work, i.e.:
>
> ul { color: blue }
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> Supported by evolt

KThanks for all the response, I got it from Holly first so I'll credit her,
/but really it was just my own stupid overlook.

KAnd to respond to this last one, technically the only reason that works is
Kcause the [li] inherits the color, but you can control the li individually
by adding the color to the li


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
1.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/

�13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [78]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:55:11 -0700
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
CMessage-ID: <OF2A66C6B4.16E163EC-ON88256D13.005C9BE6@capgroup.com>


Jim Gay wrote:

> Jason Estes wrote:
>
F> > Does anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you
-> > can change the list-item-marker's color?
> >
E> > I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of
F> > my text, but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
> >
>
4> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#lists
>
K> you can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
K> corresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image

JHate to say it, but it sounds like the easiest (albeit messier) way to do
Jit is to span/div content inside of the li tags to override the colors...

MikeL
�13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [79]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:24:28 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <ae.3e6bab30.2bdac94c@aol.com>

@In a message dated 4/25/2003 1:23:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
$Dwayne.Conyers@veridian.com writes:


> 
> 
8> I think enclosing code in tags should alleviate that 
	> issue.
> 
> --
	> Dwacon
> www.dwacon.com
> 
�13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [80]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:13:51 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
A	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304250930390.2597-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
2Message-ID: <009e01c30b56$6caf59f0$6401a8c0@yoda>

,> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Gavin Kistner wrote:
>
H> > Forgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the
@> > browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
4> > http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

OAs you've learned, the default line-height is determined by the UA with the W3
Irecommendation that it be between a factor of 1 to 1.2 of the font-size.

HTo override the default UA treatment, you can simply set your preferred
Pline-height in the ICB of the document and let the cascade naturally adjust. Be
Laware though, that you should set line-heights as a factor rather than in a
specific unit. For example,

html, body {
Kfont-size: 16px /*I'm not promoting fixed sizes, just making an example.*/
line-height: 18px;
}

Nwill be problematic when your long unstylyed <h1> wraps - effectively doing a
Qfont-size of about 2x the default (32px) but cascading the 18px line-height. The
Bwrapped lines are going to overlap. However, if you use a factor,

html, body {
Kfont-size: 16px /*I'm not promoting fixed sizes, just making an example.*/
line-height: 1.2;
}

Kthe line-height will cascade appropriately for in each descendent element.

"So, if on your test page, you use

.col1 p {line-height:1;}
.col2 p {line-height:1.1;}
.col3 p {line-height:1.2;}

,you'll find much better x-browser behavior.

Lonnie
�13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.643 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.651 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [81]
=================
3From: marc.richards at verizon.net (Marc Richards)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:53:44 -0400
@Subject: [css-d] Mozilla isn't pulling css pages from the cache
MIn-Reply-To: <20030403112504.PVKS1042.mta018.verizon.net@acornparenting.org>
4Message-ID: <000201c30b5b$ff8658f0$0100000a@diablo>

Hi,

@I have been doing some testing recently that involved careful =
examination of
Imy http headers. I have noticed that Mozilla ALWAYS gets a fresh copy of
Eexternal CSS pages (both imported and linked) when navigating thru =
various
Fweb pages (zeldman.com, centricle.com, my own internal site).  This =
	seems to
Hgo against one of the major benefits of CSS (less bandwidth).  I tested
Iusing Internet Explorer 6 and it caches the pages just fine. Has any one
Delse noticed this?  I am using Mozilla 1.3 on windows XP with the =
default
cache settings.

Marc=20

�13:43:45.652 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.652 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.652 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [82]
=================
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:28:00 -0500
Subject: [css-d] 
G Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?)
7In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
6References: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA98C40.3000802@cookiecrook.com>

Peter-Paul Koch wrote:
> 
I> Any Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and 

> Safari.

HSpeaking of which, the meetup.com website styles dreadfully in Safari, 
Hso it kind of throws an ironic wrench at the web standards meetup idea 
,doesn't it? http://webstandards.meetup.com/

GAlso, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is 
Dcancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so 
Iprematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas and 
Gstill want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll 
Jarrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may be 
 interested in an Austin meetup.

Cheers,
James Craig

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/
�13:43:45.656 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.656 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.657 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [83]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:17:57 -0500
FSubject: [css-d]  Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats for
	browsers on Mac?)
6References: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
$	<3EA98C40.3000802@cookiecrook.com>
7Message-ID: <00e301c30b67$c3454660$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

> 
I> Also, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is 
F> cancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so 
K> prematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas and 
I> still want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll 
L> arrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may be 
"> interested in an Austin meetup.
> 

> Cheers,
> James Craig


LAt least you have people in Austin signed up for the webstandards.meetup.  

8I am the only person in Fort Worth signed up for it. :(

	OH well!


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org 

�13:43:45.657 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.657 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.657 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [84]
=================
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:31:57 -0400
'Subject: [css-d]  Web Standards Meetup
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A28FECC@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

BI came across this on Mr Craig's web site and decided to join the
8Cleveland one only to see the next day it cancelled :-(

6Maybe the web developers one will be better attended.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
,From: Jason Estes [mailto:ckestes@bewb.org]
%Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:18 PM
To: James Craig; 'CSS-discuss'
ESubject: Re: [css-d] Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats
forbrowsers on Mac?)


>=20
K> Also, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is=20
H> cancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so=20
F> prematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas
and=20
K> still want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll=20
H> arrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may
be=20
"> interested in an Austin meetup.
>=20

> Cheers,
> James Craig


5At least you have people in Austin signed up for the
webstandards.meetup. =20

8I am the only person in Fort Worth signed up for it. :(

	OH well!


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org=20


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
4From daniel at ionize.net  Fri Apr 25 22:06:01 2003
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:06:01 -0500
0Subject: [css-d] Help w/ IE Mac disappearing ID
>Message-ID: <B8088CA6-7761-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

Hi,

FI have been busy on a project that is almost done, but I find myself 
+deeply in need of some expertise and help.

HI'm trying to finish up a site now at: http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/

One issue remains, however:

HIn IE4, (and IE5) on the Mac (OS 9), I'm getting reports that the logo 
Iin the top left is not appearing. Unfortunately, I don't have access to 
Gan OS 9 box to test. (I tried installing it, but my monitor-- yes, my 
Gmonitor-- prevented me from doing so). In my copy of IE5 Mac on OS X, 
it renders correctly.

ICan someone w/ IE 4 or IE 5 running under OS 9 confirm that the logo is 
=not appearing? Does anyone know why this would be happening?

6The xhtml/css validates, but it *is* a tabled design.


The goods:

6default style sheet (setting #logo to display: none):
4http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/default.css
E	- I *did* try removing the link to this stylesheet and the problem 
	persists
.global style sheet that sets styles for #logo
3http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/global.css
H	- This stylesheet is linked to using imports in the second stylesheet 
Flinked (import.css). I know that the IEs in question are getting the 
Gglobal stylesheet, however, because other styles from it are rendered 
correctly.

thanks,
-daniel
�13:43:45.657 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.657 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.657 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [85]
=================
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:21:42 -0500
0Subject: [css-d] Help w/ IE Mac disappearing ID
?In-Reply-To: <B8088CA6-7761-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>
>Message-ID: <E9393B98-7763-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

!Sorry, I left out the directory:

> The goods:
>
6> http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/default.css

<http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/_library/styles/default.css

5> http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/global.css

;http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/_library/styles/global.css
�13:43:45.657 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.657 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.657 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [86]
=================
0From: valleyofmalls at yahoo.com (David Norris)
,Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:31:36 -0700 (PDT)
7Subject: [css-d] image float right issues in IE5.5 win
AMessage-ID: <20030425213136.54351.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>

�I have sliced up an image and floated it right inside a table using the method here http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/raggedfloat/demo.html I'm using the style code as follows on my slices:img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 0 0 0;} (I have enough white space on the sliced images that I don't need to add any margin for the text wrap) Looks fine it seems everywhere except IE5.5 windows, not sure about mac. In IE 5.5 there's some space between the images and the right edge of the table so it won't meet up with the edge. But if I add some negative px or em to the right margin it looks fine in IE 5.5, the image goes flush to the edge. example: img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -3px 0 0;} img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -1em 0 0;}  Is there an IE 5.5 hack or something for this?  


"---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
fThe New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.From holnkids at netscape.net  Fri Apr 25 23:26:08 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:26:08 -0400
7Subject: [css-d] image float right issues in IE5.5 win
6Message-ID: <0DC0F06E.2A589CC0.009CE500@netscape.net>

.David Norris <valleyofmalls@yahoo.com> wrote:

�>I have sliced up an image and floated it right inside a table using the method here http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/raggedfloat/demo.html I'm using the style code as follows on my slices:img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 0 0 0;} (I have enough white space on the sliced images that I don't need to add any margin for the text wrap) Looks fine it seems everywhere except IE5.5 windows, not sure about mac. In IE 5.5 there's some space between the images and the right edge of the table so it won't meet up with the edge. But if I add some negative px or em to the right margin it looks fine in IE 5.5, the image goes flush to the edge. example: img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -3px 0 0;} img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -1em 0 0;} �Is there an IE 5.5 hack or something for this? 

�Hi David - If you know it is only IE5.5 (and not IE6 also) that is doing this, you can use the Tan hack [1] to feed the negative right margin to IE5.5 which would look like this -

img.slices {
    float: right; 
    clear: right; 
8    margin: 0; /* Margin settings for most browsers */ 
    }

B* html img.slices { /*Only IE browsers see this (including Mac)*/
2    margin-right: -3px; /* Set value for IE5.5 */
<    ma\rgin-right: 0; /* Reset value for IE6 and IE5-Mac */
    }

�Otherwise (if IE6 needs the negative margin as well), try setting the "incorrect" value in the regular selector and use the child selector to reset it for the other browsers -

img.slices {
    float: right; 
    clear: right; 
    margin: 0 -3px 0 0; 
    }

)html>body img.slices {margin-right: 0; }

HTH,

~holly

[1] See: "A Modified SBMH" -
7     http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BoxModelHack

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
9From fortuneb at bellsouth.net  Fri Apr 25 23:38:11 2003
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:38:11 -0400
Subject: [css-d] site check
AReferences: <002101c30a3e$21449a20$97a4d742@charterpipeline.net>
*	<009e01c30a40$9dec4e40$73163d0a@sdig.fr>
6Message-ID: <00a801c30b7b$5a454d40$6001a8c0@felwithe>

Bnot diggin the techno on the home page. cool music, but annoying.


> ----- Original Message -----
%> From: "Ian Adams" <icadams@pe.net>
>
L> I am updating the code for my site to a standards compliant xhtml/css and
M> cannot get the style to view in Netscape 7.  The syle views fine in IE and
J> the site validates every way I can think of to test it.  The address is
> http://www.microtech.com
>
>
�13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [87]
=================
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:40:10 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
6Message-ID: <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>

2can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
4From gleemax at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 23:49:00 2003
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:49:00 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7In-Reply-To: <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
References: 
J <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+ <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
4Message-ID: <151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>

6Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:

4> can you have more then one media="all" on a page?

BYes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
>media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,

G<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" media="all">
E<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">

-- 
John Lewis
�13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [88]
=================
,From: epersonae at mail.com (Elaine Nelson)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:03:30 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] site check - esp. on Mac?
1Message-ID: <20030425230331.9939.qmail@mail.com>

(http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/test/pioneer/
*(links don't work, this is only a mockup)

�I've checked it on Moz 1.2.1, IE 6, Netscape 4.something and Opera 6 (all win2K), and am reasonably satisfied with the results. It's been validated all round, and passed. :)  

�Minimal style is fed to old browsers, with additional stuff for the more modern crowd.  I decided to go for the XML prolog to force IE6 into non-strict mode so I could keep using body>#whatever selectors rather than some other hack...I don't know if this causes problems elsewhere....

MA check from Mac users would be especially helpful!  Thanks for your time...

Elaine Nelson
 work: http://www.pierce.ctc.edu
"notWork: http://www.epersonae.com

-- 
;__________________________________________________________
:Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
�13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [89]
=================
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:10:17 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] site check - esp. on Mac?
2In-Reply-To: <20030425230331.9939.qmail@mail.com>
>Message-ID: <1474BED5-7773-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

HOn Friday, Apr 25, 2003, at 18:03 America/Chicago, Elaine Nelson wrote:

*> http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/test/pioneer/
,> (links don't work, this is only a mockup)


Looking Good Mac Side:

[OS X]

Moz
IE 5.2
Safari
�13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [90]
=================
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:56:20 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
6Message-ID: <46F927D0.13623D7A.009CE500@netscape.net>

css-discuss@plumlee.org wrote:

)>At 01:00 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>
,> >>If I try to place an image in the right
O> >>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6. �IE
9> >>refuses to display the content in that third column.

$>http://wgi.org/2003/indexmac2.php 

`Hi Scott - I played around some more with your example and found a few more interesting things.

�It seems putting a top border on the div.column-three-content will kill the problem without using the float, as long as the image is wrapped inside something else. You could put it in another div, or a paragraph, either one seemed to work. 

�What I did was give the div.column-three-content a {border-top: 1px solid #6666ff;} which is the same color as the background of the column. I then gave each of the other div.column-xxx-content a top border the same color as their backgrounds, and 1px high to balance things between the columns. This works great in the example you provided.

�Unfortunately, what you will find if you put content in the middle div is that the image gets pushed below the bottom of the content level of the middle div, though it still does display. 

�Another thing I tried which IE6 is okay with but Moz and Op aren't is to give the image a margin property that looks like img {margin: 0 -3px;} IE6 happily centers the image and displays it, too. Unfortunately, Moz and Op drag the thing to the left 3px. You can use a child selector to reset the margin value for the other browsers - html>body img {margin: 0;}

�I'm afraid this is going to be a case of pick your hack. The float one isn't that bad, especially if the image is going to take up the entire width of that right side div and since you said it isn't causing problems for Moz and Op7.  

�So after all this, my suggestion is to go with the float. It seems the easiest way to deal with the various problems that are encountered. Be aware that if you need to put content in the right div *before* the image, the image will disappear again, even with the float. This time it's hiding behind the background, so add [img] to the selector that has the {p\osition: relative;} property. If you don't want a background on the right div, you won't need the pos:rel.

+In brief, my suggestion looks like this - 

.box-wrap, .columns-float, 
.column-one, .column-two, 
.h2, .column-three, img {p\osition: relative;}

img { float: left;}

K>I appreciate the advice.  I think I might have a "immovable object meets 
?>the irresistible force" complex about this problem right now.

�I'm not sure which one of those is you and which is IE6, but I do agree this is a frustrating problem, and one that is going to require the application of a(nother) hack to solve. 

+Not sure I was much help this time, sorry,

~holly


C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
7From ehmer at pacific.net.au  Sat Apr 26 06:00:43 2003
5From: ehmer at pacific.net.au (David & Angela Ehmer)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:00:43 +1000
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem
3Message-ID: <005301c30bb0$cca941e0$5bf88fcb@ehmer>

HI have developed a horizontal menu system which works okay except that;

GExtra space appears below the horizontal menu, both when the dropdowns
Jappear and when they don't.  Not sure where this is coming from or how to
Ieliminate it. Think it may be related to the cumulative space the 3 drop
Kdowns take up.  Also the menus appear a bit touchy and disappear sometimes
3when they shouldn't (probably Javascript problem!)

MNote, I have used relative positioning as I want the page to be centred on a
$screen with resolution of 1024x768.

%Appreciate any suggestions.  See URL

,http://www.netnoise.com.au/acpchn/index.php

David
�13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.658 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [91]
=================
1From: mark.r.stevens at attbi.com (markinoregon)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:20:19 -0700
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem
4In-Reply-To: <005301c30bb0$cca941e0$5bf88fcb@ehmer>
DMessage-ID: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAGEGICAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>


AYeah, the menu's are touchy here on XP/IE6 Broadband connection,
Ealso i noticed your australian map, on the right side of the header,
#is a few pixels off from the text.
-----Original Message-----
*From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org
H[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org]On Behalf Of David & Angela
Ehmer
&Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 10:01 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem


HI have developed a horizontal menu system which works okay except that;

GExtra space appears below the horizontal menu, both when the dropdowns
Jappear and when they don't.  Not sure where this is coming from or how to
Ieliminate it. Think it may be related to the cumulative space the 3 drop
Kdowns take up.  Also the menus appear a bit touchy and disappear sometimes
3when they shouldn't (probably Javascript problem!)

MNote, I have used relative positioning as I want the page to be centred on a
$screen with resolution of 1024x768.

%Appreciate any suggestions.  See URL

,http://www.netnoise.com.au/acpchn/index.php

David

G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
�13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [92]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:51:53 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C2348@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

H> I work in academia with folks who are geeky, but not necessarily in a
H> web browser sort of way, but who are mostly Mac users.  Among the Mac
E> people, a very large majority use IE 5 - about 72%, at last count.
E> These are about evenly divided between 5.2+ on OSX and all others.
?> The next highest is NN4, at a scary 9%.  Safari has recently
A> overtaken gecko-based, with some early adopters giving me a 7%
E> reading, while all geckos (NN6, NN7, all Mozillas and derivatives)
>> are another 6%.  IE4 has just 1%, and all others (including
F> unidentified) account for the rest.  I have had exactly one Opera =
	visitor.

=20
Thanks Adam,
=20
*I find this very interesting information!
&And yes, 9% with NS4 is really scary!
=20
=20
/Robert
=20
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Sat Apr 26 12:48:09 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:48:09 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <1051268977.6929@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051357689.16411@tweek.sebduggan.com>



<>> I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
C>> whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
<>> the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:
> 
O> Very nice Steve - this seems to be the most elegant solution so far - and it
4> seems to work in every browser I've thrown it at!
> 
*> I'll be changing my own code to this...

Final word on this...

GI tested my page on a friend's Linux box, on Konqueror. Unfortunately,
LKonqueror currently only supports white-space:pre for PRE and XMP elements.
LHowever, even the earlier beta of Safari handles it correctly, so it should
1find its way in to the KHTML source fairly soon.

F(Also, it wasn't a disastrous mis-rendering - and Konqueror users are
6probably a very small minority of my site's traffic).


Seb

�13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [93]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:24:43 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] Quick thank you
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426112216.00ba3028@cbiweb.com>

MJust wanted to say thanks to those who gave me suggestions the other day on 
Imaking lists with mixed styles. I haven't been able to try them out yet 
Lbecause I got distracted with another project. But I will let you know how 
$it works out when I get back to it.

Thanks!

Joel
�13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [94]
=================
=From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rick_Hurst?=)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:21:10 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
EMessage-ID: <mailman.163.1051374077.541.css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>

Nfor some reason this layout is missing the left border when displayed in IE5=
N mac=2E The odd thing is that the space has been left for the border, but no=
> colour is showing=2E Any ideas why, or how I might fix it=3F

7http://www=2Ehypothecate=2Eco=2Euk/css=5Ftest/v8=2Ehtm


�13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.659 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.660 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [95]
=================
.From: steven at sjknet.com (Steven Kallstrom)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:47:17 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
2Message-ID: <000e01c30c13$829c7730$6401a8c0@MAIN>

CSS Experts,

:	I am working on a layout where I have a large graphic as
Fbackground, and menu.  I don't want to reload that since it is static
Dthroughout, so I decided to just make it so that I would reload the
content area.

%http://12.221.231.252/test/test.html

F1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
HCSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
Hto do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
4in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?

F2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
Iusing an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the content inside
Hthe div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
Ffile...  I wish they had something like <div src="page"> sort of like
Aiframes, but you are simply change what is inbetween the divs...

what do you think?

Thanks a ton,

Steven J. Kallstrom

�13:43:45.660 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.660 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.660 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [96]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:50:21 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>

KIf this has been asked recently, I apologize for the repeat. Feel free to 
%direct me to the thread if you like.

JI've been doing some testing with ems and %'s. I like the versatility of 
Iboth, but which is better in today's browser compatibility climate? I'm 
Hconcerned mostly about consistent results while avoiding the tiny text 
Lsyndrome that can occur on a Mac. (I don't have a Mac, so all my design is 
PC oriented.)

LMy main goal is to design with less-than-default-size text, but still give 
0users the ability to change it if they want to.

TIA,

Joel
�13:43:45.664 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.664 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [97]
=================
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:55:04 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+	<00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
)	<151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>
6Message-ID: <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>

#can you have more then one import?


----- Original Message ----- 
'From: "John Lewis" <gleemax@attbi.com>
"To: <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
%Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 6:49 PM
-Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import


8> Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:
> 
6> > can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
> 
D> Yes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
@> media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,
> 
I> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" media="all">
G> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">
> 
> -- 
> John Lewis
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
;From matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com  Sat Apr 26 19:52:00 2003
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:52:00 +0100
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
7Message-ID: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>

'http://blogstreetjournal.com/index.php

MWorks fine in all win browsers I've been able to download, no Mac, and Linux
Ktill I get a spare day, so if any one with either of these platforms could
'check it for me, I'd be most grateful.

Matt

-- 

Khttp://unitedheroes.net/blogs/matt/ - usually updated, occasionally funny,
sometimes even informative!
�13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [98]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:28 +0100
1Subject: FW:RE:  [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7Message-ID: <000d01c30c25$6ac11d70$0100007f@localhost>

Not sent to the list.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:48 PM
To: 'Brandy (mediadiva)'
-Subject: RE: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import


I don't think so . . .

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
<}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of 
}Brandy (mediadiva)
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 6:55 PM
-}To: John Lewis; css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
.}Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
}
}
$}can you have more then one import?
}
}
}----- Original Message ----- 
(}From: "John Lewis" <gleemax@attbi.com>
#}To: <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
&}Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 6:49 PM
.}Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
}
}
9}> Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:
}> 
7}> > can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
}> 
E}> Yes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
A}> media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,
}> 
>}> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" 
}media="all">
H}> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">
}> 
}> -- 
}> John Lewis
}> 
}> 
H}______________________________________________________________________
-}> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
5}> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
F}> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

�13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
T13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [99]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:57 +0100
%Subject: FW: [css-d] ems or percent?
7Message-ID: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>

Damn outlook.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:45 PM
To: 'Joel Young'
%Subject: RE: [css-d] ems or percent?


Joel,

HThe way I've found to use these (and avoid the broken box model as much
;as possible) it to decale the follwing in you style sheet:

body {
	font-size: 100%;
}

P (or your divs or whatever) {
	font-size: 0.8em;
	line-height: 1.166667em;
}

DThis give you the equivalent of 12px font sizing, and a 17.5px line
height.

CThe body { font-size: 100%; } should avoid it inheriting, as would
Eexplicitly declaring all tags you use with { font-size:0.8em; } This
Fworks in every windows browser that I've been able to find a download
?for, though I don't own to a mac, so I don't know about those.

"For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.

Matt

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
F}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Joel Young
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 6:50 PM
!}To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
"}Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
}
}
?}If this has been asked recently, I apologize for the repeat. 
}Feel free to 
&}direct me to the thread if you like.
}
<}I've been doing some testing with ems and %'s. I like the 
}versatility of 
=}both, but which is better in today's browser compatibility 
}climate? I'm 
I}concerned mostly about consistent results while avoiding the tiny text 
@}syndrome that can occur on a Mac. (I don't have a Mac, so all 
}my design is 
}PC oriented.)
}
>}My main goal is to design with less-than-default-size text, 
}but still give 
1}users the ability to change it if they want to.
}
}TIA,
}
}Joel
}
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

�13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [100]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:54:58 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7In-Reply-To: <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>
References: 
J <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+ <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
) <151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>
+ <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>
4Message-ID: <148201738897.20030426135458@attbi.com>

9Brandy wrote on Saturday, April 26, 2003 at 12:55:04 PM:

%> can you have more then one import?

CYes, with the caveat that all @import rules must appear before all
(other rules. For example, this is okay:

    @import "main.css";
    @import "print.css" print;
    h1{font-size:3em}

DAlso, keep in mind that an imported style sheet without a specified
Fmedia, like the first rule in the above example, has an implied media

of "all".

-- 
John Lewis
�13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [101]
=================
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:42 +0100
,Subject: FW: [css-d] inline frame border...
7Message-ID: <000e01c30c25$6fead4d0$0100007f@localhost>

And again.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:47 PM
To: 'Steven Kallstrom'
,Subject: RE: [css-d] inline frame border...


EBest of my knowledge, only framesets (urgh) or iframes will give you
Dthis action. Don't know how to remove the IE iframe border with CSS
though.

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
<}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of 
}Steven Kallstrom
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 5:47 PM
}To: 'CSS List'
)}Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
}
}
}CSS Experts,
}
;}	I am working on a layout where I have a large graphic as
G}background, and menu.  I don't want to reload that since it is static
E}throughout, so I decided to just make it so that I would reload the
}content area.
}
&}http://12.221.231.252/test/test.html
}
G}1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
I}CSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
I}to do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
5}in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?
}
G}2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
<}using an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the 
}content inside
I}the div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
G}file...  I wish they had something like <div src="page"> sort of like
B}iframes, but you are simply change what is inbetween the divs...
}
}what do you think?
}
}Thanks a ton,
}
}Steven J. Kallstrom
}
}
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}

�13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.665 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [102]
=================
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:02:49 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
2References: <000e01c30c13$829c7730$6401a8c0@MAIN>
8Message-ID: <005701c30c26$6e5d1370$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

H| 1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
J| CSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
J| to do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
6| in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?

BNot that I know of. This has been a complaint since IE3. In fact,
>IFRAMEs in IE have other default attributes that override any
2CSS property, sometimes with nasty consequences. 


H| 2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
K| using an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the content inside
J| the div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
| file... 


@No again. You may want to experiment using the OBJECT tag. For 
0instance, this works in IE5/Win and Netscape 7:

B<object data="another.htm" type="text/html" id="yourID"></object>

ENote that the object tag must be given an explicit height and width,
Deither as attributes or thru the CSS. Note also that here again, IE
insists on a border.

Brett


�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [103]
=================
RFrom: info at brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk (Brighton Freelance Web Design)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:21:56 +0100
2Subject: [css-d] How to center an image using CSS
WMessage-ID: <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>


Hi there,

8I'm trying to center the image at the top of this page.

Ahttp://www.brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk/szoo/template.htm

using the following code.

.logo {
	width: 333px;
	margin-right: auto;
	margin-left: auto;
	margin-bottom: 55px;
	text-align: center;
}

*It works on IE5.5 Mac but not on IE6 Win.

BAny ideas how I can get it to center on the most common browsers?

Andy
�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [104]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:23:50 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
7References: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
"Message-ID: <3EAADCC6.C4A@ij.net>

Matthew Davey wrote:
 
J> The way I've found to use these (and avoid the broken box model as much
=> as possible) it to decale the follwing in you style sheet:
 
	> body {
>         font-size: 100%;
> }
 
!> P (or your divs or whatever) {
>         font-size: 0.8em;
#>         line-height: 1.166667em;
> }
 
3> This give you the equivalent of 12px font sizing

G.8em gives a little over a half size character box on a system that is
Iusing the windoze common default of 12pt/16px@96DPI. (144 dot box vs 256
dot box; 56.25%).
 
$> For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.

FFor what reference? 15px=1em if and only if the default size is 15px,
Gwhich is not the default case for any browser as a virgin installation
Gon any virgin PC OS. Netscape 4, IE6 & Mozilla/Netscape 6+ all default
Eto 16px/12pt. Windoze defaults to 96DPI. For IE6 you can see the few
;instances where 15px would be the default in the charts at
;http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [105]
=================
(From: knaepkens.luc at pandora.be (Luc)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:28:28 +0200
%Subject: FW: [css-d] ems or percent?
8In-Reply-To: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
7References: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
4Message-ID: <12423476367.20030426212828@pandora.be>

Good evening Matthew,  
    

AIt was foretold that on 26-4-2003 @ 19:55:57 GMT+0100 (which was
320:55:57 where I live) Matthew Davey would mumble:

<snipped a bit>

&MD> For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.
  
GMatthew,  how  do  you  get  that value of 15px? In your example there
/aren't  any  px set, only 100% (body) and ems.

GI  thought  that  the  'em'  unit  equals  the  computed  value of the
G'font-size'  property  of the element on which it is used, except when
Git  occurs  in  the  value of the 'font-size' property itself. In that
7case it refers to the font size of the parent element.

;Or am i missing something fundamental here? (probably yes)
 
Best regards,
 Luc

---------------------------------------------
APowered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build
E2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera.

G"Men were made for war. Without it they wandered greyly about, getting
Dunder the feet of the women, who were trying to organize the really
0important things of life." - Alice Thomas Ellis
---------------------------------------------











�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [106]
=================
'From: david at lenef.com (David Lenef)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:44:00 -0500
,Subject: [css-d] Disappearing Div on Mac IE
;Message-ID: <NFBBKJNGEDABMFKHCIFEAECKEAAA.david@lenef.com>

!http://Lenef.com/elite/prodtest/
:(Don't bother clicking the button - it doesn't work yet.)

KPlease refer to the above page on which I'm testing a product page layout.
KOn NetMechanic's Browser Photo, the right-hand content div does not appear
Kin Mac IE 5.0 screenshots, and most of it is way off the right edge of the
viewport on Mac IE 4.5.

EIt's supposed to be a 2-column layout with photos down the left side
I(float:left) and text specs on the right (margin-left used to create the
Kright column effect and stay out of the way of the photos). Style sheet is
Lembedded in the page. Any ideas what I need to do to accommodate Mac users?

FIt will eventually be dropped into a container div on the final page.

K(BTW, Mac users represent a miniscule portion of this site's audience, but
Hif one arrives at the page, they need to at least see the information.)

David Lenef
david@lenef.com
http://Lenef.com

�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [107]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:48:17 -0400
2Subject: [css-d] How to center an image using CSS
XIn-Reply-To: <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>
References: 
L <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>
6Message-ID: <63-1549435046.20030426154817@mrclay.org>

6Saturday, April 26, 2003, 3:21:56 PM, Brighton wrote:
>BFWD> I'm trying to center the image at the top of this page.
GBFWD> http://www.brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk/szoo/template.htm

ADrop the width and l/r margins on .logo.  It will expand to 100%
Dnaturally and text-align will do its job.  You can also use IDs for
/elements that only appear once in a document..

<div id="logo">
D   <img src="images/logos/home_logo.jpg" width="333" height="96" />
</div>

#logo {
    margin-bottom: 55px;
    text-align: center;
}

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.666 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [108]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>

Joel,
FI've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font 
7size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...

body {  font-size: 76%; }

LThen, for different sections (divs) I set the font size to ems. Examples...

#middle { font-size: 1em; }
#left { font:-size: .9em }

?I also set the font size by ems for other elements. Example...

h1 { font-size: 2em; }

CThis allows the fonts to resize in ems in relation to the first % 
Fdeclaration. Whether it works for you, or not I don't  know. You may 
Jwant to try it and experiment changing % and em sizes and see if you can 
tweek it to your needs.
--
Tony
�13:43:45.667 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.667 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.667 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [109]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:06:28 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
G> I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
9> size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>
> body {  font-size: 76%; }

Why?

EI, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
Apage's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
1From mrmazda at ij.net  Sat Apr 26 21:18:34 2003
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:18:34 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>

Ian Hickson wrote:
 
*> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:

I> > I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
;> > size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
 
> Why?
 
G> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

HShhhhh! You, of all people, should know better. For people like you and
Gme, this is how we want inconsiderate web designers to make their text
Atiny. When they use 'body {font-size: 76%;}', it allows our user
Hstylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100% !important;}' to put it back how
Ait belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in body and shrink everything
Eelsewhere, our simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing
something?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
�13:43:45.667 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.667 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.667 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [110]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:26:05 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
 <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>

Ian,
IUntimately almost anyone can set their font size as a user, even if the 
Epage is built to display at pixels. The designer sets the size they 
Ithink is best. After that, its out of their hands and the viewer can do 
Cas they wish. I picked up the method I suggest from Owen Briggs...

Ahttp://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html

JIt made sense to me, so I went with it. He gives some good reasons as to 
why he uses % and ems.

GAs usual, the wiki for this list points to some excellent resources...

.http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FontSize
--
Tony

Ian Hickson wrote:

)>On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>  
>
G>>I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
9>>size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>>
>>body {  font-size: 76%; }
>>    
>>
>
>Why?
>
F>I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
B>page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
>  
>
�13:43:45.667 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.667 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.667 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [111]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261322140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:
> > >
 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }
> >
I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
2> Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better.

Hehe.


D> For people like you and me, this is how we want inconsiderate web
E> designers to make their text tiny. When they use 'body {font-size:
D> 76%;}', it allows our user stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100%
I> !important;}' to put it back how it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in
I> body and shrink everything elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule
&> can't work. Am I missing something?

II used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
to use it.

It doesn't work.

JThe problem is that many people write pages that are sized in pixels, and
Hwhen you override their setting on body, you end up making entire pages
unreadable.

FI guess it's better for authors to make their pages unreadable in one
Kplace (the body rule above) rather than all over though, as you point out.
KI just wish I understood why people are so obsessed with making their text
tiny.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
/From ian at hixie.ch  Sat Apr 26 21:32:19 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261328180.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
K> It made sense to me, so I went with it. He gives some good reasons as to
> why he uses % and ems.

JOh I wasn't disagreeing with using %s and ems -- indeed I have written my
own comments on the matter:

1    http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1045789943&count=1

II'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
use better than me. :-)

#*crawls back into his ivory tower*

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
=From joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca  Sat Apr 26 21:51:21 2003
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:51:21 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

?Well, the replies to my message are certainly interesting. ;-)

JI'm not entirely new to CSS, but I am new to sizing fonts with something 
Mother than pixels (yes I decided to give control back to the user). The use 
Gof ems vs % almost seems to be a personal preference, so I guess that 
doesn't really matter.

MSo if I use body {font-size: 100%}, then the rest of the page will be sized 
Lin relation to that (i.e. 80% of 100, 75% of 100), right? Or will there be 
;some inheritance along the way under certain cirumstances?

?And does this apply to ems as well? Or do ems act differently?


MThat's a lot of questions for just one answer, eh?  -- If there is only one 
answer :-)




(At 05:18 PM 4/26/03, Felix Miata wrote:
>Ian Hickson wrote:
>
,> > On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
K> > > I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
=> > > size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>
 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
	> > Why?
>
I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
I>Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better. For people like you and
H>me, this is how we want inconsiderate web designers to make their text
B>tiny. When they use 'body {font-size: 76%;}', it allows our user
I>stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100% !important;}' to put it back how
B>it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in body and shrink everything
F>elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing
>something?
>--
?>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
?>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur
>
(>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
>
@>Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
>
H>______________________________________________________________________
+>css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3>http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D>Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
�13:43:45.668 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.668 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.668 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [112]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:57:22 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261322140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAAF2B2.7C90@ij.net>

Ian Hickson wrote:
 
*> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:

"> > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }

K> > > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
G> > > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

4> > Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better.
 
> Hehe.
 
F> > For people like you and me, this is how we want inconsiderate web
G> > designers to make their text tiny. When they use 'body {font-size:
F> > 76%;}', it allows our user stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100%
K> > !important;}' to put it back how it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in
K> > body and shrink everything elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule
(> > can't work. Am I missing something?
 
K> I used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
> to use it.
 
> It doesn't work.

Better than nothing.
 
L> The problem is that many people write pages that are sized in pixels, and
J> when you override their setting on body, you end up making entire pages
> unreadable.

GWell, body 100% doesn't impact elements sized in px. :-( But, only for
Fthe time it takes to use zoom, pending a fix someday maybe (users can
Eall hope, can't we?) for bug 4821, or even implementation of Jakob's
*suggestion "Improving Future Browsers" at
-http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20020819.html.

H> I guess it's better for authors to make their pages unreadable in one
M> place (the body rule above) rather than all over though, as you point out.

Shhhhh!

M> I just wish I understood why people are so obsessed with making their text
> tiny.

FAt URL below I've collected some reasons. Maybe you can add some I've
missed?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

FFelix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/defaultsize.html
�13:43:45.673 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.673 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [113]
=================
)From: sarah at weed.org.nz (Sarah Wedde)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:02:01 +1200
,Subject: [css-d] Disappearing Div on Mac IE
<In-Reply-To: <NFBBKJNGEDABMFKHCIFEAECKEAAA.david@lenef.com>
.Message-ID: <BAD14D09.8875%sarah@weed.org.nz>

David,

KI think you  need to set an explicit width on the left-hand div (div.photo
H{margin-bottom: 2em; width: 300px;}) in order to get Mac/IE5 to behave.

Sarah


;On 4/27/03 7:44 AM, "David Lenef" <david@lenef.com> wrote:

#> http://Lenef.com/elite/prodtest/

M> On NetMechanic's Browser Photo, the right-hand content div does not appear
M> in Mac IE 5.0 screenshots, and most of it is way off the right edge of the
> viewport on Mac IE 4.5.
 
G> It's supposed to be a 2-column layout with photos down the left side
K> (float:left) and text specs on the right (margin-left used to create the
M> right column effect and stay out of the way of the photos). Style sheet is
N> embedded in the page. Any ideas what I need to do to accommodate Mac users?
 
> David Lenef
�13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [114]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:11:58 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261359140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

'On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Joel Young wrote:
>
A> And does this apply to ems as well? Or do ems act differently?

JOn the font-size property, 'em' and '%' mean exactly the same. (Well, 1em
Kis equivalent to 100%, so they mean the same thing given a factor of 100.)
JBoth of them refer to a value relative to the parent element's font-size.

IOn other properties, '%' refer to other measures, for example percentage
Gmargins refer to the width of the containing block. On the other hand,
4'em' units always refer to the element's font-size.

For example, given:

   h1 { font-size: 2em; }
   p { text-indent: 1em; }
$   blockquote { font-size: 0.5em; }

	...then:

-  <body>              User's font size (1em)
:   <h1> ... </h1>     Twice user's font size (2em of 1em)
4   <p> ... </p>       User's font size (1em of 1em)
   <blockquote>
=    <h1> ... </h1>    User's font size (2em of 0.5em of 1em)
B    <p> ... </p>      Half user's font size (1em of 0.5em of 1em)
   </blockquote>

  </body>

HTH,
-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
8From kr43m0r at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 26 22:16:26 2003
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:16:26 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
J	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
2Message-ID: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
> Why?
>
G> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

PWhy? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the OS. This
&is often in conflict with the design.

NWhat is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser, 76% is a
JVERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
,comfortable with reading text at that size.

PIf you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser to something
Qcomfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer to mimic the size of your
Emenu text by adjusting the default browser font size with a % value.

QGood for you if you've changed the default browser text size to fit your viewing
Kpleasure. By setting the default size to a percentage of the default, that
Qdesigner has opened the door for you to tweak it to suit your preference. Had he
6specified pixels, you on IE would have little choice.

Q>From my point of view, if you find MOST of the sites you visit too difficult to
Nview, then you'd be advised to seek an alternative UA if your user preference
yields no improvement.

Can you read a typical book?

PI'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs. I did 100% at
Qone point and got an equal amount of suggestions from users to reduce or enlarge
)the default size as I do now. Go figure?

Lonnie
�13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [115]
=================
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:26:02 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
p	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
2Message-ID: <002101c30c3a$706aa6a0$6401a8c0@yoda>

Felix,

NAccording to your calculations, I'm glad it is impossible for me to ever even
meet you half-way!

Lonnie
�13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [116]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:31:46 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261328180.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
5Message-ID: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>

7on 4/26/03 4:32 PM, Ian Hickson at ian@hixie.ch wrote:

K> I'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
> use better than me. :-)
> 
%> *crawls back into his ivory tower*

KAnd while you're up there see if you can get the W3C to drop font settings
Gfrom CSS3 - or perhaps just drop fixed-size units all together - cause
Kthat's the only way we'll never see this topic again. (and while you're at
Mit can we get some relative color units? Like "dark, darker, light, lighter"
Lor maybe that would screw with users who change their color settings to the
Dinverse of what authors expect... So maybe some way to reference an
3"opposite" color would be needed... Hehe... Sorry)

MAs an author I find a base px size with relative units off of that (as a few
Mothers have referred to in this thread) is sometimes the only sane way to do
Jthings - especially when so many other items on a page are based on pixel
Imeasurements. It just doesn't make sense not to give a default in pix to
Jmaintain the balance of a layout for the vast majority of users who don't
Mtouch their prefs. I also am generally pretty liberal with my choice of font
9sizes - using what is some circles would consider "big".

FYes using all relative units (or just not touching anything) would be
Jpreferred, but because there's such a wide gap between the many who don't
Lknow about their prefs, the few who do and take care to adjust accordingly,
Gand the clients that are paying the bills its sometimes not practical.

KAs a surfer I sometimes wish my browser(s) of choice were smarter in these
Iareas and could do things like remember text zoom settings, or alternate
Kstyle sheet choices across a site and across multiple sessions, similar to
Jhow remembers image blocking or cookies choices. I also am quick to set a
Mminimum font size of 9 or 10px when I install a browser which causes some of
Jits own problems (e.g. may hide some implied document structure, or cause
=overflow issues) but alleviates many of the worst offenders.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
�13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [117]
=================
1From: svendtofte at svendtofte.com (Svend Tofte)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:42:31 +0200
%Subject: SV: [css-d] ems or percent?
EMessage-ID: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEENOCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>

<> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge.
> X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

IJust wanted to point out, that menu text, and "reading" text, is not the
Ksame, and is not read in the same way. I would be veary of comparing maybe
Hten small words, at the top of a window, with a page full of text, it's
Itotally different sizes here. Microsoft Word has a default size of 12pt.

Just a comment :)

Svend
�13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.674 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [118]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:15:04 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
6In-Reply-To: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:
> > >
F> > > When they use 100% in body and shrink everything elsewhere, our
G> > > simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing something?
> >
M> > I used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
 > > to use it. It doesn't work.
>
> Better than nothing.

KNot really. All it does is change one set of unreadable pages for another.
;As you point out, what is really needed is full page zoom.


#On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Lonnie wrote:
>
P> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

Interesting.

LSo basically I should set my font size to 130% of what I would want to see?

GUnfortunately this makes sites that do honour my settings way too big.


F> I'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs. I
D> did 100% at one point and got an equal amount of suggestions from
F> users to reduce or enlarge the default size as I do now. Go figure?

GIf you got the same number of complaints when doing the right thing as
Gwhen doing the wrong thing, I would suggest doing the right thing. :-)


+On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Chris Casciano wrote:
9> on 4/26/03 4:32 PM, Ian Hickson at ian@hixie.ch wrote:
>
M> > I'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
> > use better than me. :-)
> >
'> > *crawls back into his ivory tower*
>
M> And while you're up there see if you can get the W3C to drop font settings
I> from CSS3 - or perhaps just drop fixed-size units all together - cause
8> that's the only way we'll never see this topic again.

DDropping absolute units has been considered several times, but as a
Awhole the working group feels that they do have valid use cases.


E> (and while you're at it can we get some relative color units? Like
F> "dark, darker, light, lighter" or maybe that would screw with users
A> who change their color settings to the inverse of what authors
E> expect... So maybe some way to reference an "opposite" color would
> be needed... Hehe... Sorry)

EThis is also being considered, although I hear there are issues with
?how to define it. I recommend checking the www-style archives.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
2From tbounds at gci.net  Sat Apr 26 23:40:48 2003
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:40:48 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>

Ian,
GWhat do you think of the designer being so bold as to not honor other 
user settings? For instance...

EFont Type: Setting preferred font types. As with setting font size, 
Hdoing such requires the user to go out of their way to apply what they 
may prefer.

IContent Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in 
?effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.

DLink Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a 
designers preference. 
--
Tony
�13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [119]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:42:09 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
UReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
'	<001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
#Message-ID: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>

Lonnie wrote:

> Ian Hickson wrote:

> > Tony Bounds wrote:

 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }

	> > Why?

I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
 
R> Why? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the OS. This
(> is often in conflict with the design.
 
<> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge.

GActually it is a terrible gauge propagated by Owen Biggs, who has also
:shared such other gems as "the browser defaults are huge"
G<http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html> and
D"most browsers default to a text size that I have to back up to the
kitchen to read"
I<http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/font/index.html>.
EIt is apparent that Owen's eyes are not your average UA user's eyes,
Hbeing akin to those of an eagle, able to see the tiniest things at huge
Ddistances. It is wholly unfair to assume most UA users have similar
	ability.

> X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

IIt's an awful and not even comparable estimate. Bogus, bogus, bogus. Can
Eread and comfortable read are entirely different things. If the menu
Atext is 76% of a comfortably set default page text, it is merely
Elegible, not comfortable. Simply legible is good enough for familiar
Hthings like system controls. They get used frequently, but only briefly
Ieach time. With each use, they become more familiar, eventually reaching
Ithe point where experienced users wish they were smaller still, in order
Fto provide more space to the viewport, or to allow the use of smaller
Iwindows, so that more of other windows could be seen simultaneously. The
Gfamiliarity all but dispenses with any need to read at all, with mouse
Ievents targeted to remembered screen locations rather than words read. A
Gshort squint at small controls here & there is far more tolerable than
Gfull time squint required to read page text as small as controls text.

R> If you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser to something
S> comfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer to mimic the size of your
G> menu text by adjusting the default browser font size with a % value.

ENo it isn't, and you don't know what size my menu text is anyway. In
Gwindoze for example, controls text size varies according to DPI, which
Ialso you don't know. The eagle-eyed may very well find that the default,
Fdesigned for low resolution displays, works perfectly fine even after
Hdoubling the screen resolution from the low common values of 640 or 800
Gwide. Others, like me, and many others no longer under 40, welcome the
Iability to increase controls size, whether or not increasing resolution,
7taking away the need to squint to use system controls.

GFWIW, the IE6/Mozilla defaults of 16px/12pt are close enough for me to
Icall just right, when I'm using 1024 wide resolution, and a 19" monitor.
CWhen I drop the resolution back to 800 wide, 13px becomes slightly
Ftaller than 16px is on 1024 wide, while 12px becomes slightly shorter
D<http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/pixelsize2.html>, & I change my
default from 16 to 13.

%Now, compare to Ian Hixie's settings
E<http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1045789943&count=1>. Twice 12.5px is 25px
D(prefs options include 24 & 26, but not 25). Twice 800 wide is 1600
Fwide. The only significant difference in conversion is his display is
Bsmaller, but then he's probably not even half my age (50+), still
Eblessed with decent if not good eyesight. From what I've seen of his
Dmusings on the subject of font sizes, I hesitate to assume his near
vision is excellent.
 
> Can you read a typical book?

DThere is no such thing as a typical book. My bible is a large print
Fedition. Many paperbacks use smaller text than newspapers. Newspapers
Hare a strain, so I get most of my news off TV, or the internet, where I
Ghave a UA that allows me to override the common arrogant page designer
Iassumption that UA designers are ignorant morons who make the PC default
12pt/16px without good reason.
 
C> I'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs

CI'd like to visit some of these. As long as I've been reading your
Hadvocations of designer knows best I can't recall one instance of a URL
pointing to any of your work.

> I did 100% at
S> one point and got an equal amount of suggestions from users to reduce or enlarge
+> the default size as I do now. Go figure?

8You place more value upon the clueless than the clued. 

ADo you design sites using IE6 using the system defaults, with no
Eadjustment to the defaults, such as adjusting the browser default to
Gyour liking before starting a design? One of these days section 508 is
liable to catch up with you.

GIt's certainly a good thing for users of sites made by people like you
?that UA zoom and !important in user stylesheets are available.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
�13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [120]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:59:51 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
5Message-ID: <BAD087A7.53B97%chris@placenamehere.com>

9on 4/26/03 6:42 PM, Felix Miata at mrmazda@ij.net wrote:

> 
9> You place more value upon the clueless than the clued.

Yes.

MAnd until browsers come with install wizards that walk through configuration
 I don't see that changing much.

M... If you know how to set up your browser of choice for desktop for optimal
Gviewing I will try my damnedest to not screw you over (e.g. 0.5-0.7ems
Iothers referenced) But I have a lot more confidence that you know how to
Kdeal with what I as an author throw your way, then I have for Joe Internet
User.

:*takes this moment to consider the absence of a list mom*

LI know you'll never be satisfied with that answer Felix so I'm not going to
Hbother continuing down this road. I urge others on both sides to do the
same.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
�13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [121]
=================
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
 <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261548211.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
H> What do you think of the designer being so bold as to not honor other
!> user settings? For instance...
>
F> Font Type: Setting preferred font types. As with setting font size,
I> doing such requires the user to go out of their way to apply what they
> may prefer.

IOverriding font-family is easy at the user stylesheet level, so I'm fine
*with authors choosing their own typeface.


J> Content Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in
A> effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.

HI say good luck to them. My user agent gives me the ability to override
window resizing, etc. :-)


E> Link Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a
> designers preference.

KLike with font-family, colours are easy to override, so I'm fine with that
Htoo. In general, and this applies to font-family too, different colours
Ddon't make a page more or less readable for me, like font sizes do.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
7From cdwise at wiserways.com  Sun Apr 27 00:04:28 2003
/From: cdwise at wiserways.com (Cheryl D. Wise)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:04:28 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
AMessage-ID: <003f01c30c48$30858060$1901a8c0@local.wiserways.com>

IYou may think on your monitor that 76% of the default setting is a "good
Hestimate" but I can't read 76% of the default on my laptop period, with
or without reading glasses.

GWhile I applaud using % instead of fixed px (or even worse pt) sizes I
Iget very tired of having to adjust fonts up to read them. Funny enough I
Hcan only think of one site that I even considered adjusting a font down
Hto a smaller size and it was a site on accessibility that seemed to use
an extra large size font.

EPersonally I'd rather a design be 'broken' than a site's contents be

unusable.

Cheryl D. Wise
WiserWays, LLC
www.wiserways.com
Office: 713.353.0139
Mobile: 713.412.0406
cdwise@wiserways.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Lonnie

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
> Why?
>
H> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the 
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

GWhy? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the
/OS. This is often in conflict with the design.
�13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [122]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:12:47 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
#Message-ID: <3EAB126F.7A2D@ij.net>

Tony Bounds wrote:

E> Link Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a
> designers preference.

BEventually, the power for users to override using css will become
)commonly exercised. e.g., this I do now:

?:link:hover[target="_blank"],:visited:hover[target="_blank"] {
7  color: white !important; background: red !important;
}
;:link:hover[target="_new"],:visited:hover[target="_new"] {
7  color: white !important; background: red !important;
}

-http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
�13:43:45.675 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.676 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.676 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [123]
=================
)From: simon at jessey.net (Simon Jessey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:33:20 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
o	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
	<3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
:Message-ID: <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>

----- Original Message ----- 
%From: "Felix Miata" <mrmazda@ij.net>
%Subject: Re: [css-d] ems or percent?


> If the menu
C> text is 76% of a comfortably set default page text, it is merely
G> legible, not comfortable. Simply legible is good enough for familiar
> things like system controls.


MI have to agree with that. I have a 21 inch monitor attached to a Windows XP
Iplatform set to 1280 x 1024. I use this setting because I want plenty of
Jscreen real estate, but the menus (in their default setting) are a little
too small for my liking.

JI make web documents using relative units, with the only exceptions being
Gthe odd bit of padding, border width or letter spacing. In the case of
Mfonts, I almost always set a size of 100% in the BODY and then have 0.8em as
Gmy smallest child size. Users have the option of making it quite a bit
Msmaller or larger if they desire. I like to make a font as large as possible
&without it being ugly or impractical.

FThis new trend for microfonts is peculiar. I can only assume that the
Ltypical designer has a gigantic monitor, or perhaps projects their computer
Himage on a wall. One site that particularly annoys me is Kaliber10000 (
Ihttp://www.k10k.net/ ). Let me quote from one of my own weblog entries:-

I'The design is absolutely incredible, but the small font size being used
Dmeans that glyphs are dwarfed by medium-sized subatomic particles.'

MAnd resizing the text isn't always the answer, assuming it is even possible.
MMaking the text bigger on the Kaliber10000 site reveals the structure of the
?typeface, causing it to appear blocky and '80s computer-like'.

ENo. I am a firm believer in using CSS relative units and leaving the
Ldecision up to the user. It is our job as web designers to conceive layouts
Lthat don't break when text is resized. The fixed width site is a dinosaur -
power to the user!

Simon Jessey

w: http://jessey.net/blog/
e: simon@jessey.net


�13:43:45.676 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.676 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.676 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [124]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:02:27 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
References: 
J <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
' <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
3Message-ID: <61220190472.20030426190227@attbi.com>

8Lonnie wrote on Saturday, April 26, 2003 at 4:16:26 PM:

D>> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting
?>> the page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems
>> strange.

E> Why? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than
5> the OS. This is often in conflict with the design.

GThat may be a good reason to send a nasty letter to browser makers. On
Ethe other hand, most browsers let the user choose their own default,
Gso it's not at all clear what you'd ask them to do. I'd argue that any
:size has a great chance of conflicting with most designs.

DI can already choose a good default size. My problem isn't with the
Fbrowser, it's with authors who assume I'm ignorant and lazy. They try
Cto "help" me because, after all, they're designers, so surely they
#know what I want better than I do.

G> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser,
D> 76% is a VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you
?> should be fairly comfortable with reading text at that size.

E76% of my preferred font-size = smaller than my preferred menu size,
Dand much smaller than my preferred font-size. What you're saying is
Ftrue if and only if the user hasn't changed their menu text size, the
Euser hasn't changed their browser text size, OS text scaling is off,
Eand they're using a common platform like Windows and IE on a monitor
Gof "normal" size. That's an assumption you can't make with confidence.
FOh, and of course then they need to have near perfect vision as well.

DNor are the two related; I set the menu size in my OS and I set the
Fdefault text size in my browser. Even if you can change the menu size
Edirectly in your browser, I doubt it also rescales your default text
Asize. Further, the two serve different purposes. I want my menus
Gtaking up as little space as possible while still being highly legible
C(where legible means "read easily"). I want web pages to be highly
Greadable (where readable means "read easily at length"). The two serve
Dradically different purposes. As such, my menus are set to a pretty
>small sans-serif and my user style sheet uses a larger serif.

@I don't mind if you override my font-family, even if you choose
Fsomething lame like Times New Roman. I may be annoyed, I may disagree
Ewith you, but at least the text is almost as readable as before. But
Fwhen you cut the size by a quarter, text suddenly becomes much harder
Cto read no matter what my preferred typeface is, and odds are your
@style sheet will be disabled after about two seconds (Ctrl+G by
Adefault in Opera). If your page is designed well, maybe I'll try
Ezooming first instead. Maybe I'll simply leave and go read something
Belse. One thing is certain: There's no way I'll sit there and try
reading tiny text.

E> If you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser
F> to something comfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer
G> to mimic the size of your menu text by adjusting the default browser
> font size with a % value.

DThat doesn't make any sense. The only way it would make sense is if
Gyou know the size of one or both, and you only have access to the size
Gof one (and even then you don't know the specified or actual size). As
Aa web page designer, it's impossible to mimic the size of a menu
Dwithout making assumptions about user settings. The two just aren't
"related unless by happy accident.

EAs mentioned above, nor does it mean the text will be readable, even
"if you could mimic the menu text.

F> Good for you if you've changed the default browser text size to fit
E> your viewing pleasure. By setting the default size to a percentage
E> of the default, that designer has opened the door for you to tweak
G> it to suit your preference. Had he specified pixels, you on IE would
> have little choice.

DI use Opera, and I'm not the only one. Even more people use Mozilla
@and Safari. Where do people get the idea that everyone uses IE?

> Can you read a typical book?

'Yes. That doesn't seem related to CSS.

-- 
John Lewis
�13:43:45.676 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.676 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.676 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [125]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 01:20:46 +0100
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
�	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda><3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
/	<002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
2Message-ID: <007d01c30c52$d918f950$fd00a8c0@mike>

MI feel somewhat humble at asking a small question in the midst of CSS gurus,
Lwith wide polarity of view (no pun intended), indulging in an excellent and
Kimportant debate. With my business consulting hat on, a simple question...
Gespecially given the cogent example of http://www.k10k.net/, someone's
Gexcellently designed window to the world but so difficult on the eyes.

MOn the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
Iyour opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
Gsettings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
users, most of the time?

Mike
Edinburgh, Scotland
�13:43:45.676 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.677 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.677 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [126]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:38:50 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <007d01c30c52$d918f950$fd00a8c0@mike>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
 <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
' <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
 <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
/ <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426213121.00bcd8b0@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

!At 09:20 PM 4/26/03, Mike wrote:
><snip>
N>On the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
J>your opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
H>settings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
>users, most of the time?
>
>Mike
>Edinburgh, Scotland



LYes! This is what my original question was about, and I'm glad you brought 
Lit back around, Mike. Hopefully someone will have an answer for us. In the 
Kmeantime, let's see if I understand a few things.  Someone please tell me 
<if I'm even close to knowing what I'm talking about.... :-)

===============
Scenario 1:
AAssume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}

?This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
#of the browser's default. Yes? No?
===============
Scenario 2:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 1em}

AAll text on the page will still be 80% of the browser's default,
=because basically 1em = 100%, and I'm only setting it to 20%
$less (which is 80%).  Right? Wrong?
===============
Scenario 3:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 0.9em}

:Okay, NOW the text will actually be just under 80% of the
:browser default, because it is 9/10ths of 80% of default.
===============
Scenario 4:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 100%}

=Again, the text remains at only 80% of default, because I've
Cset it to be 100% of the body font size (not that I would do that,
it's just for example)
===============
One more... Scenario 5:
body {font-size: 100%}
0.classname {font-size: 1em} or {font-size: 80%}

FHere, the text will either be the full browser default, or 80% of it.
Right?
===============


HIf all the above are correct, then it's just as easy to set the body at
D100% all the time, and simply use smaller percentages for different
sizes.
BThat, or do body {font-size: 100%}, and use various em sizes, and
Ceverything should work out - keeping the sizes within a reasonable
range, of course.

8Did I reach home base, or am I somewhere in left field?


Joel
�13:43:45.678 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.678 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.678 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [127]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:57:04 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
zReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
F	<3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net> <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
#Message-ID: <3EAB2AE0.7C85@ij.net>

Simon Jessey wrote:
 
H> This new trend for microfonts is peculiar. I can only assume that the
N> typical designer has a gigantic monitor, or perhaps projects their computer
J> image on a wall. One site that particularly annoys me is Kaliber10000 (
K> http://www.k10k.net/ ). Let me quote from one of my own weblog entries:-
 
K> 'The design is absolutely incredible, but the small font size being used
F> means that glyphs are dwarfed by medium-sized subatomic particles.'

HZoom to only 150% in Mozilla trunk, and right in the middle text spills
out of its containing image
Fhttp://www.k10k.net/images/frontpage/features_wspecials.gif. The site
1also depends on image substitutes for text. e.g.
8http://www.k10k.net/images/backs/front_issuematrix.gif 
@And, if you think it's tough now, try it at 1600 wide or higher
Hresolution. Hard to figure if the purpose of that site is anything more
)than to show off someone's css-d skills.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
�13:43:45.679 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.682 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.683 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [128]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:06:58 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
6In-Reply-To: <BAD087A7.53B97%chris@placenamehere.com>
7Message-ID: <001601c30c59$4d8f5e90$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

> Chris Casciano :
>
;> on 4/26/03 6:42 PM, Felix Miata at mrmazda@ij.net wrote:
> >
;> > You place more value upon the clueless than the clued.
 
> Yes.

DEmphatically agree with Chris. While I hesitate to even chime in on
@this, since it seems more than played out and there seems to be
Hunwillingness to budge on both sides of the issue, I would just like to
Iadd, while this is obviously a *philosophical* difference, if left to my
Hown devices I would design for the clueless EVERY time, since they make
3up the vast majority of users that spend the cash.

DExample: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/us-tricks/  

I.. While it's an older article, so much of it is still true to this day.
HSpend some time watching **REAL** users... Not only do many of them not
Gknow what the Stop and Refresh button do, but I have NEVER seen ONE of
Four non-technical test users change their font size.  Ever. I've even
Dasked some to do so specifically and was greeted with the astounded
%reply of "you mean I can do that??".

II can't remember if this specific tale of woe is referenced in the above
Garticle, or one that it links to, but I have actually, personally seen
Eone user complain that he couldn't hit a link in question because he
E"ran out of desk".  This was a bio-chemist whose brain must weigh at
Dleast 5 times what mine does, and  who had been using computers for
Gquite a few years, who didn't realize he could actually pick the mouse
Iup off the desk and reposition it without effecting the cursor position.
HDo you think HE knows how to change his font size?  He doesn't, however
Ihe estimates that a full 60%-70% of his non-essential purchases are made
Eon-line!!!  THIS is the guy I gotta design for??!!?!  Yes.  And when
Bpresented with larger than life, default windows IE text size, he
Hdetests the excessive scrolling he has to go through, and uses the back
Fbutton instead.  I heard him before hitting his back once mutter, "do
 these people think I'm blind?".

GMy dear old mother, who still to this day double-clicks links AND form
Hbuttons on web sites despite all her kids and grandkids telling her not
Gto, can't set the font size on her browser, even though she's actually
Gbeen shown how to a few times, and even had the font-size button added
Cto her IE toolbar for her. She can use three things.. A web site's
Gpresented navigation, her back button, and her "x" button in the upper
Dright hand corner.  BUT, she Googles with the best of 'em, and is a
FHEAVY internet shopper, even finding full-adult size "footie" pajamas
Efor my wife and I (which ain't an easy task, but much appreciated in
INorthern Maine!).  From what I can discern, what she likes to see on web
Hsites is 12 pixel Arial, and will probably never learn how to apply her
Ipersonal preference at the browser level.. But will shop ecommerce sites
F'till the day she dies.  For her, the back button is just easier than
Gbothering with all the "stupid buttons" on the browser (her words, not
mine).

ESo, yeah, I'm totally with Chris.  I don't place more 'value' on the
Hclueless than the "clued"... But the "clued" can figure it out on their
Eown if they want to. The clueless, who spend the same money that the
G"clued" people do, and make up a greater number of users, would prefer
Gthe back button over actually learning how to use their tools.  Bottom
Fline is: my job ain't to convince them to use their tools, never mind
Ateach them HOW, my job is to sell them crap, or convince them of
something.  

DIt just depends on what you do for a living and who your target is.
BProgrammers and Designers are in no way reflective of the average
3internet user, though many of them think they are.

CThe usual disclaimers apply... Just my $0.02, IMHO, YMMV, etc.. :)

--Josh

�13:43:45.683 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.683 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.683 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [129]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:30:01 +0930
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
(In-Reply-To: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
/Message-ID: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>

Tony Bounds wrote:
> ...
> 
K> Content Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in 
A> effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.
> 
> ...

AI've already been thru a flame war on this on another list, but 
-css-d attracts a more sensible crowd, so ...

BI'm not sure if this is what you meant, but, one of my pet hates 
@is sites which spread their text across the whole width of the 
?window. This particularly applies to "minimal" sites where no 
>use is made of CSS at all, but I've seen it in lots of other 
sites too.

BNow, lots of studies have been done on this, and the evidence is 
@not entirely equivocal, but a concensus seems to be that lines 
8of text should not exceed a certain length for optimum 
@readability. Therefore, it is arguably best to limit the width 
>of blocks of text to, say, 33em. (I've played with this, and 
B30em seemed too narrow, 35em too wide -- to my eyes.) Certainly, 
:this corresponds more or less to what you'll find in any 
Bbookstore. If print publishing represents 500 years of trial and 
>error, then we can feel at least a little confident that the 
@present-day format for books represents a pretty good standard 
:for readability. (Also black text on a white background, 
9although that may also be influenced by printing costs.)

1So there is an argument for using something like

"	div.text { max-width:33em; ... }

?to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of 
the user's screen.

>But many seem to find any kind of limitations placed on user 
Apreference abhorrent, so I'm prepared to hear negative feedback 
on this suggestion.

.A compromise I've adopted at my ebooks site, 
&http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/
6is to open each ebook in a new window which is sized 
Bappropriately*, and leave the user free to resize the new window 
6if they wish. But I'm still tempted to use max-width.

?[* Javascript only lets you specify window size in pixels, so 
/this is only going to be approximate at best.]

	Regards,
Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
4URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
�13:43:45.683 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.683 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.683 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [130]
=================
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 05:22:54 -0500
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
? <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net> <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
4Message-ID: <181257423383.20030427052254@attbi.com>

6Steve wrote on Sunday, April 27, 2003 at 12:00:01 AM:

?> But many seem to find any kind of limitations placed on user
E> preference abhorrent, so I'm prepared to hear negative feedback on
> this suggestion.

FOn the contrary, I think they'd be inclined to agree with you. I know
FI do! I'll now start rambling on about CSS; feel free to stop reading
here if you're busy.

EUsing min-width in conjunction with max-width is usually superior to
Dsizing something with a basic em width. The difference is basically
Fthat between a range (e.g., 16em to 32em) and a single number (24em).
?I think we can all agree that a range is almost always better.

FWe don't have anything like min-width and max-width for font-size. If
Dwe did, keeping with the same spirit of min-width and max-width, it
Gwould probably be way too complicated (for author use) anyway. You can
Eeither take monitor, resolution, preferred text size, window height,
Gand window width into account, or you can let it be useless. Including
Fonly some of the above basically cuts its usefulness so much that you
Bmight as well use font-size, and including it all (or most of it)
?makes it so complicated that it would never be implemented, or
Eprobably even specified. Users have their own set of problems. Let's
Gsay it's specified for users instead, with no auto sizing for authors.
-You have two main options for min-font-size:

+    1. Specify a minimum legible font-size
,    2. Specify a minimum readable font-size

CThe problem is, on a well designed page (1em body text and smaller
Bnavigation text) specifying a minimum readable font-size is quite
Cimperfect. Sure, text will be your minimum readable font-size--but
Gthat means that stuff you would prefer small (i.e., legible instead of
Areadable, like menus and legal text) will be too big. On a badly
Ddesigned page (smaller body text and much smaller navigation text),
Athe opposite happens. If you specify the min-font-size to be the
Eminimum legible size, to erase the possibility of illegible text but
Gnot erase the possibility that text will be unreadable, the navigation
Dtext, which was previously illegible, is now legible. The body text
Ewas already legible, so it didn't change in size! It's still just as
>unreadable, because "readable" and "legible" are two entirely
Cdifferent concepts. Which means your two options above really are:

A    1. Screw up small text at well designed sites, but fix badly
)       designed sites as well as you can
E    2. Don't fix badly designed sites, but leave well designed sites
       alone.

@The same applies to max-font-size to a lesser degree, but since
Gmax-font-size isn't quite as important as min-font-size (max-font-size
Eis like min-width, and min-font-size is like max-width, for those of
Byou confused but familiar with those properties--although I think
Fmin-width is relatively more useful than max-font-size, so it's not a
fair comparison).

?Setting a sane column width doesn't have as great an effect on
Ereadability as decreasing a font-size from an optimum size, which is
Dby definition unsafe. It's hard to think of a user style sheet that
?would cause problems if a page sensibly overrode max-width and
Dmin-width values, unless the need was vital (in which case the user
Gwould have already overriden, rendering the problem moot--keep in mind
GI'm only talking about advanced users, since we can assume no one else
Dwould use min-width or max-width or even have a user style sheet at
all).

CIn the case of neophyte users, setting a sane column width doesn't
Chave as adverse an effect on readability as decreasing a font-size
Ffrom an unknown size, because no matter the em value the column width
Cwill make sense (even if it's unreadable, or produces a horizontal
Escrollbar, it will still make sense if you're the page author--which
=is all you can know, since you don't control the user or his
Acomputer), because you have knowledge of the entire author style
Csheet, there is no user style sheet by definition, and even if you
Dsniff for a browser and assume a default font size it may have been
Echanged by accident or by a different user or by OS settings. On the
Fother hand, decreasing an unknown font-size can lead to illegible and
Dunreadable fonts (e.g., if you're decreasing a font-size already on
-the threshold of legibility or readability).

DIn reality, setting a max-width is like setting a line-height. It's
Brelated to the font-size, and it affects readability greatly, but
?they're both based on the font-size in CSS. You can change the
Eline-height, margin, padding, width, and so on that are based on ems
Gwith wild abandon. Even changing colors affects readability (so try to
Eavoid fuschia on magenta, if it's no big deal). You can use them all
Fresponsibly or irresponsibly. The fundamental difference in font-size
B(compared to ems in other properties, in this example) is that by
Dchanging it you affect a great deal. When you change the font-size,
Fmargins and padding in ems are also decreased, the actual line-height
Dis usually decreased, and the width or height of a box sized in ems
<decreases. That's a much bigger deal than changing most CSS
properties.

ENot all ems are created equal. A value of .5em applied to a width is
Galways .5em, no matter the actual font-size. Since you know .5em = 1/2
Bthe current font-size, that's valuable even if you don't know the
Eactual font-size. Setting em on width doesn't change the value; it's
Dconsistent. On the other hand, a value of .5em applied to font-size
Dchanges the meaning of an em. From now on, .5em of that font-size =
C1/4 of the 1em and 1/2 of the current .5em, unless you're changing
Efont-size again, in which case you modify the value for that element
Band its descendants as well. You've now lost basically all of the
Fusefulness of em. You can still calculate values of em, and fractions
Band so on (like I did above), but it won't help you design a page
Gwell, since you don't know the actual value. Much of the reason 1em is
Gso valuable is that it's 1em, not ".9em to 1.3em". That's why assuming
F1em is more valuable than assuming everyone's browser default is 16px
Gexcept that group, whose default is 14px, etc. The absolute values are
Finherently less useful. In a perfect world, you'd know all the values
Gand style according. You'd also know the users favorite colors and pet
peeves.

=You need to know the actual value of 1em to change the value
Dsignificantly with confidence, if you want to know you're improving
Ethe user experience. I define significantly as above 6.25%, but it's
Esort of arbitrary. Sort of. You could practically change it by 18.5%
Cor so without causing major harm in most cases, but you're sure to
Fhave an impact that's felt, and there is the very real possibility of
Aunreadable text. So, 93.75%? Hardly a big deal. I might not even
Dnotice, and even if I do I'm not likely to be hurt terribly. On the
Cother hand, I'll notice and probably curse 81.5% (depending on the
Ctypeface, leading, column width, and my mood). If you were against
Gchanging font-size for body text generally, because you realized there
Gare bad things about doing so, you could still change it to 93.75% (or
?so) and very few people would have cause to complain. Changing
=non-body text to about 81.5% is about as safe. You could get
Bcomplaints from veteran users, and it could cause something to be
<illegible, but very few people will have cause to complain.

FOf course, all that's sort of useless, because my 1em is not Alison's
G1em, or Sarah's 1em, or Aaron's 1em. It may be, but it isn't, and more
Eimportantly it can change, from day to day and even more frequently.
DFor example, my preferred font-size changed no less than four times
Gyesterday. I wasn't doing much of anything strange--I think it changes
at least twice a day.

EEven if a user has a max-width set on body, overriding that value is
Eless harmful than changing a font-size on body. Indeed, if max-width
?on body could cause a problem with your page, you'd do well to
Boverride it preemptively. I think it would be more harmful to not
Econsider the effect of max-width than to consider the effect and act
2accordingly. It would be hard to argue otherwise.

/> A compromise I've adopted at my ebooks site,
G> http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/ is to open each ebook in a new
C> window which is sized appropriately*, and leave the user free to
C> resize the new window if they wish. But I'm still tempted to use
> max-width.

BI say go for it! We need more intelligent uses of CSS on the web,
Gespecially of relatively rare properties. Anything to stop JS windows,
FI say. Of course, Win IE didn't support max-width last I checked, and
5it's funny how most of the web uses Win IE. Oh well.


GI thought about some guidelines for text sizing in CSS. At first I was
?going to list my own guidelines (in fact, I wrote up the email
Fyesterday, but I didn't send it), but I think it would be more useful
Fto list "guidelines for designers." I already know what I'm doing and
Gwhat I like. If someone is likely to agree with me, I think they could
Ejust as easily come up with similar guidelines. I might as well list
.some things people may actually find helpful.

; 1. Size everything relative to body (or the root element)

G    Sizing everything relative to body gives you just as much control,
F    and it lets a user easily override the "main" setting on body and
A    have your page text resize accordingly, both larger and even
F    smaller. Use math if you want exact values. For instance, instead
D    of 14px body text and 28px headings, use 14px body text and 2em
    headings.

  2. Use safe line-height values

@    There's hardly ever a need to specify dangerous line-height
B    values. If you want to maintain an exact value from a certain
A    size, use a little math. For example, 14px/19px would become
B    14px/1.357 (and so on, if you'd like). It's most important to
E    avoid 1em/19px or similar, because 1em could be much larger than
5    19px, in which case the text would be illegible.

$ 3. Take text resizing into account

E    There's a reason pixel-width layouts suck. If there's no room to
E    breath, increased text size values lead to tiny columns of text.
A    In an ideal world, you'd use min-width and max-width to size
F    columns. The reality is there's no good solution today other than
B    avoiding bad situations. That doesn't mean you should neglect
F    min-width and max-width, it just means you shouldn't rely on them
E    working. Keep it in your "complex" style sheet if that's how you
    do things.

; 4. Try to avoid massive font-size changes relative to 1em

D    In many ways, some random px value (as above, preferably on the
F    body element) is better than a small % of my preferred font-size.
B    A small % is surely going to cause headaches, but a random px
F    value has a decent chance of working, and a much better chance of
G    causing less harm if it doesn't work. On the other hand, about 80%
F    of the body size on a menu stands a great chance of being helpful
F    and a tiny chance of being harmful. So do that! It's pretty safe,
    and the payoff is big.

& 5. Try to consider user style sheets

A    I never realized how powerful user style sheets were until I
C    started using them. Similarly, it helps a great deal if you've
D    experimented with CSS before you tackle potential problems. For
<    example, if have a rule like this in a user style sheet

(        p{color:white;background:black}

D    (ever mind how unlikely that is for the moment) and you have an
!    author style sheet with this

        p{background:white}

F    we have a problem. Try to set common values in pairs and whatnot.
G    If something would look truly hideous with a border, and you could
E    imagine someone putting a border on that element in a user style
<    sheet, play it safe and override the border. Colors and
<    backgrounds are meant to be together; on't forget about
E    transparent backgrounds, since you'll probably need or want them
G    at some point. Another thing, since so few CSS sites seem to do it
F    (for whatever reason), please set a line-height if you assume the
E    default value, even if you just use "normal." I don't think it's
D    going to harm anyone, and it will benefit those of us trying to
G    read a narrow column with a huge line-height (or, theoretically, a
@    wide column with a tiny line-height, but that isn't exactly
    likely).

-- 
John Lewis
�13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [131]
=================
.From: moose at literarymoose.info (The Moose)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:41:52 -0500
4Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
7Message-ID: <oproadf2zb98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>

Hello,

KI have played a bit with the display of the unordered lists when they are 
Kused for navigation of a logical sequence of pages, and would like to ask 
Bfor screenshots from the following browsers: *Safari*, *Camino*, 
*Konqueror*.

EThere are two pages (I'd like to get screenshots for both from each 

browser):

9http://www.literarymoose.info/=/destroy/moovigation.html

Ahttp://www.literarymoose.info/=/destroy/moovigation-variant.html

FThe first features generated content (with entities only) hidden via 
Khtml[xmlns] method, the second does not. Mozilla displays &#xxxx; instead 
Mof the character on the second page (I don't know why). Opera7.1 behaves in 
both cases.

DThe size of screenshots does not matter, I'll be watching my inbox.

thank you in advance,

Wojtek

p.s. styles embedded.
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Sun Apr 27 12:53:21 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:53:21 +0100
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
2Message-ID: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>


KDoes anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and below

for OS X?

LI've successfully divided my CSS into basic version, which gets read by all
Mbrowsers, and more advanced CSS, which gets read by browsers that understand
M@import. This works perfectly in every browser I've thrown it at - including
4the betas of OmniWeb 4.5, based on Apple's WebCore.

MUnfortunately, OmniWeb 4.2 understands @import, but hasn't a clue about what
to do with the CSS afterwards.

MIs there a CSS-based way of hiding styles from OmniWeb? Or would I be better
Loff detecting the user-agent on the server - and then add any other problem
browsers to my detection list?


Seb

�13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [132]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:09:17 +0900
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
3In-Reply-To: <1160748345-3816664@pointinspace.com>
=Message-ID: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 01:21  AM, Rick Hurst wrote:

I> for some reason this layout is missing the left border when displayed 
E> in IE5 mac. The odd thing is that the space has been left for the 
L> border, but no colour is showing. Any ideas why, or how I might fix > it?
>
/> http://www.hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.htm

EYour <div id="myclear"> is empty, except for an absolute positioned 
Himage (which is taken out of the document flow any way). I deleted the 
F'width' on your #myclear, and added a non-breaking space in the div, 
;and then your layout worked out exactly as in Mozilla 1.4.

	Philippe

:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
�13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [133]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:09:30 +0900
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
3In-Reply-To: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
=Message-ID: <7B1D8EC7-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 08:53  PM, Seb Duggan wrote:

H> Does anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and 
> below
> for OS X?

:I use <link rel="stylesheet"............media="Screen" />
(note the capital S)
D<http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/macbrowsercsssupport.html>,
scroll down to the bottom.

	Philippe

:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
�13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [134]
=================
*From: WebHead at wi.rr.com (Arlen Walker)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 08:47:55 -0500
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
8In-Reply-To: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
=Message-ID: <D971F63A-78B6-11D7-A71B-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>


@On Saturday, April 26, 2003, at 01:52  PM, Matthew Davey wrote:

J> Works fine in all win browsers I've been able to download, no Mac, and 
> Linux
H> till I get a spare day, so if any one with either of these platforms 
> could
)> check it for me, I'd be most grateful.

JNot bad. Suffers from the "phantom right margin" bug in IE5/Mac, because 
Iyour "linksright" div is right-poistioned within 16px of the right edge 
Fof the viewport. When this happens, IE5/Mac adds another 16px to the 
Gwidth, forcing horizontal scrollbars when none are needed. Fix is not 
Jpositioning it within 16 px of the edge and optionally giving a negative 
$right margin to move the text over.

=Also center column is a tad lower than the two outside ones.

ABoth of these are minor cosmetics, the second one could even be 
Econsidered an intentional design choice (the "asymmetry adds visual 
Jinterest" bit). Positioned as it is below the subtitle for your site, it 
@actually works better than uniform starting positions, I think.

HThen again, I always liked comic books with non-square panels, as well.


Have fun,
Arlen

-----
-In God We Trust, all others must supply data
�13:43:45.684 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.685 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.685 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [135]
=================
0From: css at nextw3.net (Marcello Armand-Pilon)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:42:17 +0200
,Subject: [css-d] IE Win positioning problem
:Message-ID: <3E8423B100919A0B@smtp12.cp.tin.it> (added by
	postmaster@virgilio.it)

Hi all,

�I am working on a site that displays correctly in a variety of browsers under Mac and Win, except IE6 Win. Sorry if I cannot provide a URL, 'cause I'm still working locally, but here's the main DIV that's causing the poblem:

#mainframe {
	position: absolute;
	text-align: center;
	width: 800px;
	margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px;
	padding: 0;
	text-align: left;
	}

�With all the browsers I have tested so far, the left margin is anchored 20px far from the browser left side, but IE6 Win add a huge 400px margin (more or less) on the left side. If I change the position from absolute to relative, things run better, but the content is then liquid, while I want it to stay 20px from the browser left side, and don't move.

[I'm sure this matter has been discussed already, but any help would be gratly appreciated.

Thanks, Marcello
:From chris at placenamehere.com  Sun Apr 27 17:55:27 2003
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:55:27 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
3In-Reply-To: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
5Message-ID: <BAD183BF.53C5C%chris@placenamehere.com>

?on 4/27/03 7:53 AM, Seb Duggan at outlaw@joseywales.com wrote:

O> Unfortunately, OmniWeb 4.2 understands @import, but hasn't a clue about what
!> to do with the CSS afterwards.
>

LThere's a point at which a user needs to be reminded they're using a flawed
Lproduct by seeing things break. Most site builders don't have the luxury of
Kputting NN4, IE, Safari or Moz in that category due to the politics of the
Imarketplace. I consider OmniWeb 4.2- as the exception for a few reasons:

K* OmniWeb users as a whole seem to be the types that are more impressed by
JUI features and control then they are with presentation of content. While
IOmniGroup doesn't promote the fact that their rendering engine is behind
Mthey don't cover the fact up at all. They maintain a more active part in the
Kgeneral user community then any browser vendor I know and they are very in
Ftune with the interface features that users are looking for. The only
Mcompelling reason (to date) to use OmniWeb is was for its interface options.
JAs a result, using the terminology of another recent thread, I would as a
Mrule consider OmniWeb users to be "clued" and able to roll with the punches.

J* The OmniGroup folks are good people who know their product is flawed in
Lterms of CSS. For some time now they have had plans to rewrite their engine
Kso haven't totally overhauled their current NN4-like engine, but even with
Kthat in mind they have always (IMExperience) been quick to fix errors that
Jcaused the loss of access to a site. So in many ways having a broken page
/has made the browser better in the short term.


MSo given that OW is a currently active development project (unlike NN4), and
Kits users are as a (my) rule the informed type (which is unheard of in all
Lother situations) and keep on top of software updates, I generally take the
Cstance that a site for a general audience should do very little to
accommodate OW users.

GPlease don't try and convince me that I'm wrong here, the above wasn't
Kintended to convince anyone of anything. Just thought it be appropriate to
Gstate my (formed after 2 yrs of watching this very open community-like
Eproject, cause I'm a software geek that way) position on the matter.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
�13:43:45.686 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.686 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.686 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [136]
=================
+From: derek at derekrogerson.com (Derek R)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:06:46 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
7Message-ID: <001101c30cf0$27e7e8a0$96a95bd1@satellite>

	  
Somebody said:
,>| I did 100% at one point and got an equal
/>| amount of suggestions from users to reduce 
7>| or enlarge the default size as I do now. Go figure?


IIt is my experience that designers tend to make their font-size as small
Gas possible simply because the content which the font-size contains is
)largely, if not entirely, communicative.

=This is to say, most blogs/websites/news-stories etc have no
Einformation/knowledge to offer so ostentatious exhibition is instead
9brought in to disguise --or make up for-- the absence of
Dcontent/substance, which is plainly absent when one reads the words
(i.e. it is communicative).

AIt is very much like Western/European culture in general, or say
EHollywood promotions, where what is promoted (the movie/tv-show, for
Hinstance) is, upon real experience/inspection [i.e. sitting through the
Aentirety of the production] not-at-all-worth-the-time-spent, but
Deverybody-else-is-doing-it, so the tendency (fear) is not to appear
oppositional.

HSmall-font designers treat their text like greek-text, which is to say,
Cif they were to expand it and make it much larger-in-size it would
Ibecome *painfully* obvious just what is being said (nothing worthwhile).

ITo provide the /appearance/ of intelligence, relevance, and/or pleasure,
Gthe designer uses small font-sizes to mask the content itself, thereby
Gsaving-face through obscuring what the designer knows to be valueless.

GThis is the same as people who wear message t-shirts or highly-visible
Dbranded clothing, who, by diverting attention to the message on the
Bmaterial one is wearing, obscures the wearer (the person) thereby
Hsaving-face and avoiding the pain of being responsible for who-they-are
(don't look in my eyes).  

IThis is not to say most everything online or in Western/European culture
Hhas nothing genuine to say or lacks value, indeed, this is exactly what
>I'm saying, but, rather, that *revelation* of this absence of
Isense/content is, its own medicine, so to speak, so that the sight of it
makes one account for it.

EIn summary, a larger font-size (say 100% ~ the whole tamale) is more
Hprominent than the usual smaller font-sizes one encounters, which is to
Bsay larger is bigger, which no doubt will cause attention to come
forward (to the content).

EThe real question is what are you saying (substance) and why are you
Htrying to hide it? (I understand ostentatious exhibition is largely the
'substance of Western/European design).


AThis email is a characterization of a generalization (seething).


+__________________________________________
"Chant down Babylon"
	 
	 
�13:43:45.739 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.740 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.741 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [137]
=================
(From: tl at abhalfdan.dk (Torben Linde)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:57:11 +0200
8Subject: [css-d] IE missing borders on inline list menu
6Message-ID: <20030427195711.28518@smtp.gnbolignet.dk>

Hello

BI have made a tab-like menu for this page: www.bryggenet.dk using
Funordered lists with inline li's. The page is valid xhtml 1.0 and css
(except the forum area).

HThe menus are located in div class="menua" and div class="menub". menua
<is the tabs and menub is a submenu on the page of each tab.

<The css-file is here: www.bryggenet.dk/layout/bryggenet.css

JThis works well in Mozilla and Safari, but the tab-like look is dependant
)on changes in border color on the li's. 
JIE/win will not show the top and bottom border on these elements and that
ruins the tab-effect somewhat.

8Is there any way to make IE show the borders correctly?

JI have tried to do the menus with left-floated divs instead but so far it
has not worked too well.



Torben Linde
�13:43:45.744 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.744 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [138]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:42:10 +0100
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
3Message-ID: <l03130300bad1d4c8a3aa@[192.168.1.36]>

K>Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I
M>could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending
L>on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the
>size of the image

IJust a quick note since I'm unfortunately tied up with mountains of work
Eand attempting to resuscitate my iBook which is dying the death of a
Aseemingly infinite number of colourful (and colourless) screens.

JAs Holly points out, it's not too hard to make css layouts fall over. The
Gpage can't take in to account all possible bugs and flaws and it's not
Emeant to just be used as is - it's not a substitute for the dull and
;thankless task of checking accross platforms and browsers.

JThat said, I'll try and pursue Holly's line of enquiries as to under what
0precise circumstances things can vanish in IE6.

EAll I can suggest (untested since I have no IE6 at themoment) did is
Esetting the image's position to relative. Nested divs in this layout
Drequire that and maybe images that fit the exact width need it too.
LAlternatively you could increase the width of the right hand column and set
its margin

JAnyhow when I've got a copy of IE6 again I'll investigate and also see if
Mthe pure float model (FFFF rather than FMFM) suffers from the same problems.


�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [139]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:32:11 +0100
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
>In-Reply-To: <7B1D8EC7-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
2References: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <l03130301bad1f7eee1c5@[192.168.0.36]>

H>> Does anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and
	>> below
>> for OS X?

GThere is another way to hide CSS from OmniWeb which doesn't rely on an
.external files like the Codebitch method does

<<http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/test/OmniWebInlineHack.mhtml>

JI'd guess that OmniWeb 4.5 with it's all new rendering engine will now do
Kthe right thing (can't check that myself so any reports on that gratefully

received)

�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [140]
=================
;From: peter.williams at hendersons.com.au (Peter Williams)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:36:58 +1000
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
LMessage-ID: <NBBBKHLHIPAOABOPCOCBEEGJAKAB.peter.williams@hendersons.com.au>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Thomas
> 
D> I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but, one of my pet hates 
B> is sites which spread their text across the whole width of the 
> window. 
> 
3> So there is an argument for using something like
> 
$> 	div.text { max-width:33em; ... }
> 
A> to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of 
> the user's screen.
> 

=I've worked on line lengths of 43 chars in the past as being
=comfortable for reading. Just last week I used the max-width
9directive to prevent text running off to the right in an
=unconstrained manner. It only works in some browsers though.
;I've really started to try to use w3c standards and ignore
?browser quirks and issues where possible for my intranet work.
CUnless a page is rendered unusable in either Moz or IE5 and higher
=I'll go with a clean, standard HTML 4 Strict or XHTML markup
<and some CSS these days. Our public web site is a different
Akettle of fish though, I'll make sure that works well in as many
Bbrowsers as possible, although I won't use non-validating markup.

<flame class="low crackle">
ANew windows of a size chosen by the page author are abhorent :-)
	</flame>

--
Peter Williams
�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [141]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:01:24 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
<Message-ID: <000001c30d08$8ea98680$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>

	Hi guys,
 
@I have done pretty much all I can with my client's new site in 
@css. (I know I have used tables in a couple of places, but that
:was for avoiding IE problems with small screen widths ...
and time constraints)
 
*I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera, 

Mac IE 5?
 
>Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
.MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
 
Thanks ...
 
,... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
 
http://www.golfbreaks.com/
 
--
Sam Ellis - 
7From RHulse at radionz.co.nz  Sun Apr 27 23:36:54 2003
.From: RHulse at radionz.co.nz (Richard Hulse)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:36:54 +1200
&Subject: [css-d] Unfixing fixed menus
4Message-ID: <sead0460.099@rnz03.wgtn.radionz.co.nz>

+I have posted this on WD-L for discussion.

HI'm posting it here as it is of interest, even is slightly OT due the =
javascript content.

	regards,
Richard
%=AF---------------------------------
>I have taken Eric Bednarz' example of fixed areas in IE at=20

"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

(and applied it to this sub-site at RNZ:

&http://www.radionz.co.nz/digitallife/

MIt worked quite well but for one main issue - when the width of the screen =
Mis too narrow the scoll bar dissappears. I'm not sure if this can be fixed =
by tweaking the CSS files.

LAnyway, as is always the case with fixed menus, if the window is not high =
(enough you lose the bottom of the menu.

KI have come up with a little JS that fixes both the problem. It works in =
,Moz and IE 5/6. on PC (not sure about Mac).

=In moz if the browser is too short then it unfixes the menu.
MIn IE it unfixes the menu, and re-fixes it if the browser is returned to a =
suitable size.

FThe JS relys on the IE style sheet having a title (which IE ignores).

.Any suggestions and improvements appreciated.

�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [142]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:43:12 +0100
!Subject: [css-d] Problem layouts
;Message-ID: <022269AB-790A-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


Hello,

GI've been using CSS for a while now and I'm beginning to feel that it 
Gdoesn't quite offer me the design toolbox I need. During almost every 
Dproject I work on there is a period of hacking with CSS to get the 
Edesired results. While most of this is due to browser bugs, I think 
/that in some situations CSS lacks design nous.

GI think that one of the reasons that CSS layout is being adopted very 
Eslowly (1 major site to date) is because it doesn't make it easy to 
Hrebuild your pages in the new syntax. Of course it's mainly because of 
Hbad browsers and the continuing use of legacy browsers that's to blame.

HI'm trying to put together a list of problem layouts that people often 
Fwant to build but can't do so simply. The worst one is positioning a 
Eblock element at the centre of the browser window. I know there are 
Flots of ways to achieve or almost achieve the required effect, using 
G100% tables, margin:auto; or other options, but these are non-trivial 
9solutions and use syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.

@If you have come across situations where CSS doesn't offer the 
Eexpressiveness you feel it should, please let me know either on- or 

off-list.

EI apologise if you are also a member of www-style and have received 
this request twice.

Thanks,

Ben


(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [143]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:02:51 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>

Hi everyone,

KI searched the list archives for an answer but couldn't find one, so it's 
$either well hidden or non-existent.

MI can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a global font size. 
IHere's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as IE6 in all 

cases)...

-On a page with no other styling, I did this:

      body {font-size: .7em}

MIn Mozilla, all my text is exactly the size I expected and wanted it to be. 
KIn IE6, there's no effect. The font size stays at the default 1em (100% / 
16px).

=So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:

      body {font-size: .7em}
      td {font-size: .7em}

MThis puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule text 
that Superman couldn't read.


KSo I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing 
Kis styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers - 
aren't they?....

"      (no body styling this time)
      td {font-size: .7em}

GThat looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a 
strong pair of glasses.


HAll I want is to set a global font size, and make other sizing changes 
'where necessary. So what's the secret?
�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.745 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [144]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:14:58 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] Problem layouts
<In-Reply-To: <022269AB-790A-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>
3Message-ID: <000001c30d2b$fb536fd0$42d5fea9@Estes>


> 
=> I'm trying to put together a list of problem layouts that 
> people often 
H> want to build but can't do so simply. The worst one is positioning a 
G> block element at the centre of the browser window. I know there are 
H> lots of ways to achieve or almost achieve the required effect, using 
I> 100% tables, margin:auto; or other options, but these are non-trivial 
;> solutions and use syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.
> 

GWhile I'm sure that you are about to get flamed by people, and rightly
6so, I just want to address one part of your position.

CYou stated in you thread above that margin:auto, was a non-trivial
:solution that uses syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.

"The CSS1 Spec specifically says :

F"Otherwise, if both 'margin-left' and 'margin-right' are 'auto', they
Ewill be set to equal values. This will center the element inside its

parent. "

GWhich means that it is exactly what it is intended to do, and with /2/
Hlines of code which could be simplified to /one/ line of code.  You set
Hmargin-left and margin-right to auto and it centers and that's how that
Gis accomplished.  If you are using other methods, then you are the one
Edoing it wrong not CSS.  That's "non-trivial"?...seems pretty simple
enough to me.

GOn another note, I find that my development efforts have been twice as
Ceasy as in traditional table layouts, and that most 'hacks' can be
Iavoided in many if not all circumstances by using a wee bit more code in
:your code.  You can review my "To hack or not to Hack" at
9http://www.bewb.org/archiveposts.asp?id=11, to read why.

FI feel (as the Lead Creative Artists and Lead Interface Developer for
Ethe company I work for) that I have much more freedom in design than
Hwhen I was faced with supporting legacy browsers.  I have intentionally
Dstepped up my designs because I know that with the power of CSS and
GXHTML, I can produce more vivid content in a more beatiful manner, all
Cwhile providing consistent renderings and with less code than ever
thought possible.

IOn one last note (and I said I was only addressing one point), there are
2quite a few "major" sites adopting CSS layouts.  

To name a few:
http://www.cingular.com 
http://www.search.yahoo.com 
http://www.pga.com 
http://www.wired.com 
http://www.espn.com


HWell anyway, I haven't found that there has been anything that I wanted
Ito create and couldn't because of the limitations of CSS and XHTML.  And
Hwith the additional support of CSS2 and then CSS3, we'll have even more
(to work with, and I for one can't wait!

Good luck to ya'

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
 


�13:43:45.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [145]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:17:39 -0500
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
<In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
3Message-ID: <000101c30d2c$5b0e6ce0$42d5fea9@Estes>


DThis is from the wiki http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsingEms

GA word of caution concerning IE. Be careful using ems. The most recent
Fversions of IE for Windows tend to flummox text with a font-size less
@than 1em ("0.5em", for instance). Percentages tend to work more
Gpredictably, and (for who knows what reason) are usually more accurate
H(possibly rounding errors?) than their em equivalents. Please note that
Ithis applies only to the font-size and line-height properties. All other
Cproperties for which ems are suitable (margins, padding, width and
Gheight, among others) are not so for percentages, since the latter are
Hcalculated according to the dimensions of parent elements. - ShawnAllen

H...and the other problem with EMs in IE is the resizing of them. If for
?instance you set the root element (either <body> or <html>) to
Ifont-size:1em, then just setting View > Text Size to "smaller" can cause
the text to become unreadable.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
 


> -----Original Message-----
-> From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
G> [mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Joel Young
'> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 8:03 PM
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
1> Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
> 
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
@> I searched the list archives for an answer but couldn't find 
> one, so it's 
&> either well hidden or non-existent.
> 
=> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a 
> global font size. 
@> Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as 
> IE6 in all 
> cases)...
> 
/> On a page with no other styling, I did this:
> 
>       body {font-size: .7em}
> 
>> In Mozilla, all my text is exactly the size I expected and 
> wanted it to be. 
A> In IE6, there's no effect. The font size stays at the default 
> 1em (100% / 
	> 16px).
> 
?> So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:
> 
>       body {font-size: .7em}
>       td {font-size: .7em}
> 
@> This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into 
> miniscule text 
> that Superman couldn't read.
> 
> 
?> So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since 
> all I'm doing 
>> is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in 
> all browsers - 
> aren't they?....
> 
$>       (no body styling this time)
>       td {font-size: .7em}
> 
I> That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a 
> strong pair of glasses.
> 
> 
;> All I want is to set a global font size, and make other 
> sizing changes 
)> where necessary. So what's the secret?
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
-> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] 
6> http://www.css-> discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> Supported 
> by evolt.org -- 
+> http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 


�13:43:45.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [146]
=================
7From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:55:42 +0930
Subject: [css-d] Content width
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
?	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net> <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
/Message-ID: <3EAC9126.6030101@adelaide.edu.au>

Steve Thomas wrote:

> ...
>
3> So there is an argument for using something like
>
'>     div.text { max-width:33em; ... }
>
E> to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of the 
> user's screen. 

HExperimentally, I've created a new ebook with a slight variation to my 
Hstandard style sheet, to see how this looks and works in practice. You 
Dcan see the result at http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/h/h27ro/

%The style sheet now reads (in part):

BODY {
-        margin-left: 3em; margin-right: 2em;
-        color: #000000; background: #ffffff;
}
/html>body { max-width:33em; margin:1em auto; }

EThe last line is the new bit, and this appears to work perfectly in 
DMozilla 1.3/Win. (Also prints beautifully.) It also displays OK on 
GIE6/Win, although the max-width doesn't work. Maybe "html>body" isn't 
Himplemented on IE6? (Can't find that browser compatibility chart right 
now -- too many bookmarks!)

HThis approach also means that it will display OK on NN4, which ignores 
the last line (I guess).

MI'd appreciate some feedback from those with Macs and/or different browsers.


	Regards,
Steve

-- 

Stephen Thomas, 
Senior Systems Analyst, 
University of Adelaide Library
UNIVERSITY OF ADELAIDE SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
'Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au 
2URL: http://www.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/

�13:43:45.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.746 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [147]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:26:22 -0500
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
<In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
3Message-ID: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>

 
<> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a
> global font size. 
@> Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as 
> IE6 in all 
> cases)...
> 

GI tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
7.1 on WinXP


<style type="text/css">
body,td {font-size:0.7em;}
	</style>


GBasically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
Hdoesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
Opera

Looks good in all of them.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org



�13:43:45.751 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.751 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [148]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:04:07 -0400
Subject: [css-d] Content width
0In-Reply-To: <3EAC9126.6030101@adelaide.edu.au>
7Message-ID: <003101c30d32$d59a2200$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

>  Steve Thomas :
"> <snip> Maybe "html>body" isn't 
> implemented on IE6? 

INope, IE ignores the html>body selector entirely... For sure on Win, and
Hif I remember correctly (which is always a gamble at this hour) also on
*Mac.  Reference the common Box Model Hack
6http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html.

--Josh

�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [149]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:10:16 -0400
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
=In-Reply-To: <000001c30d08$8ea98680$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>
7Message-ID: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Sam  Ellis (css-d) :
,> I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera, 
> Mac IE 5?
>  
@> Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
0> MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
>  
> Thanks ...
>  
.> ... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
>  
http://www.golfbreaks.com/

ICan't help with the Mac/Unix issues, sorry.  Hit your site with IE6 (Win
IXP) and thought it was a very sharp lookin' design!  Good work.  But hit
Hit with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
Ithe page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
need, lemme know.

--Josh

�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [150]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:16:35 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
;Message-ID: <D17FA29E-7927-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


7Looks good in Safari Beta 2 and Camino 0.7 on the Mac.

EIn IE 5 on OS X it looks good except the title area of the Featured 
IVenues portlet has gone awry, it is the height of the picture and fully 
Dcontains the image. I can provide a screenshot if you send me your 
;address (I joined the list after you posted your request).

Ben


FOn Monday, Apr 28, 2003, at 04:10 Europe/London, Josh Ambrutis wrote:

>
>
>> Sam  Ellis (css-d) :
,>> I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera,
>> Mac IE 5?
>>
A>> Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
1>> MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
>>
>> Thanks ...
>>
/>> ... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
>>
> http://www.golfbreaks.com/
>
G> Can't help with the Mac/Unix issues, sorry.  Hit your site with IE6 
> (Win
H> XP) and thought it was a very sharp lookin' design!  Good work.  But 
> hit
J> it with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
H> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if 
> you
> need, lemme know.
>
	> --Josh
>
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [151]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:29:33 +0900
Subject: [css-d] Content width
8In-Reply-To: <003101c30d32$d59a2200$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
=Message-ID: <A0FFF166-7929-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


>On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 12:04  PM, Josh Ambrutis wrote:

H> Nope, IE ignores the html>body selector entirely... For sure on Win, 
> and
J> if I remember correctly (which is always a gamble at this hour) also on
,> Mac.  Reference the common Box Model Hack
8> http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html.

GIE Mac does support html>body no problems. IE win does not understand 
the > child selector.

	Philippe
:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [152]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:31:16 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
4In-Reply-To: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

(At 11:26 PM 4/27/03, Jason Estes wrote:

H>I tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
>7.1 on WinXP
>
>
><style type="text/css">
>body,td {font-size:0.7em;}

></style>
>
>
H>Basically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
I>doesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
>Opera
>
>Looks good in all of them.



IFor some reason that's not working for me, and I'm using WinXP with the 
Lsame browser versions you listed.  I have the IE browser set to 'Smaller', 
Kand Moz at '100%', which I believe are their defaults. Or not? But still, 
Lresizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no 
clue.

JThe other thing is, and I should've mentioned this before, my tests were 
Gonly with no other styling in <body>, but for the actual page I'll be 
Kdoing, <body> will contain more than that, and I don't want the <td>'s to 
=have all those attributes. Sorry for not saying that before.

IIt's late where I am, so I'll pick this up tomorrow and see what's what.

Thanks!

Joel


�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [153]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:44:12 -0400
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
:	<5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
#Message-ID: <3EACA38C.2134@ij.net>

Joel Young wrote:
 
J> For some reason that's not working for me, and I'm using WinXP with the
M> same browser versions you listed.  I have the IE browser set to 'Smaller',
L> and Moz at '100%', which I believe are their defaults. Or not? But still,

FMoz defaults to 16px regardless of other settings. Moz font sizes are
Hnot impacted by system DPI setting except for the menu/chrome text, and
page text sized in points.

HIE defaults to medium. What medium (or other sizes) means to IE depends
Eon the system DPI setting, which defaults to 96. Medium at 96 DPI is
)16px. You can find other combinations at
;http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html

M> resizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no
> clue.

*Are you using an ancient Mozilla version?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [154]
=================
3From: webapprentice at onemain.com (Webapprentice)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:01:59 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
+Message-ID: <3EACA7B7.3070805@onemain.com>

Hello,

3I have a question about the use of width property.

8Look at this site in IE5.5+, Mozilla 1.0+, NS6.2+, etc.

+http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html

HThe middle white area, where there is a link to "See the style sheet," 
Iis not stretched all the way.  I'd like to stretch the white area so it 
?almost reaches the right white area but not colliding with it.

CI've tried "width: auto" and "width: 100%," but this doesn't work.

AI'm trying to mimic the final look with as much CSS as possible:
*http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/final.jpg

EYou can click the link "See the style sheet" to view the stylesheet.
!Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Stephen
�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.752 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [155]
=================
/From: nkaisare1 at hotmail.com (Niket Kaisare)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:20:40 +0000
;Subject: [css-d] Navigation links - list? (and Site Check)
6Message-ID: <Law14-F682aZcdjaS3600023087@hotmail.com>

Hi,

HI have four images (150*70px) as main navigation links and a list as a 
/sub-navigation. Currently, I have the links as
<div>
<a href=""><img></a>
#<ul><!-- List of sublinks --></ul>
<a href=""><img></a><br>
<a href=""><img></a><br>
<a href=""><img></a>
</div>

LI read on accessibility issues that there should be something other than a 
K<br> space or carriage return separating various links for accessibility. 
JHence I tried changing the main links also to a list. But the problem is 
'that in NS4.7, it gets displayed like:
  ---------
  | IMAGE |
* ---------
!(where * represents list marker)

HThis is no good because the display becomes confusing. It will be much 
better if display would be:
* ---------
  | IMAGE |
  ---------

+Second thing is that the page does a FOUC 
M(http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/fouc.asp) I tried the method mentioned in 
Athis article, but that didn't help... I still get FOUC in Opera.

URL for the specific page:
$http://atlanta.vibha.org/volunteer/
CSS for this page:
(http://atlanta.vibha.org/image/real.css

LAlso, this is my first project using CSS. So any suggestions for improving 
will be appreciated.

TIA
Niket

B_________________________________________________________________
<Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
1http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [156]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:21:23 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
,Message-ID: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>

HAnyone here that plays on blogshares has probably noticed already that 
GSeyed (the owner) changed the navigation images to text the other day 
G(most likely to speed up load-time).  This led to an experiment on my 
Ipart to see how much I could clean up the code.  I started from scratch 
Jto make the Blogshares stock page[1] and ended up with a version that is 
Gvalid XHTML 1.0 Strict, 10kb smaller (20kb smaller if you include the 
Hsupporting images/javascript), fluid-width, relative font sizes (I did 
Fwhat was easiest, perhaps not the best method, so don't go off on me 
Ilike that ems vs % thread), and more Netscape-friendly (it's still ugly 
2and not easy to use, but at least it's readable).

HI'm mainly looking for a browser check. I've got Firebird (yesterday's 
Fnightly) and IE6, but I need others... especially Macs.  I know that 
DIE/Mac has a huge horiz. scroll due to the stock ticker, but there 
Edoesn't seem to be any way to fix that without causing all kinds of 
other problems.

FIf you've got any comments on the layout unrelated to the browser or 
*CSS, let me know anyway (maybe offlist?).

I[Note: I do not work for Blogshares. Seyed hasn't even seen this layout 
Byet, although I emailed him just before sending this to the list]

--
Marshall Roch

[1] 
Lhttp://www.blogshares.com/blogs.php?blog=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogshares.com%2F

�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [157]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:43:24 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
-In-Reply-To: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
,References: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
,Message-ID: <3EACB16C.4020309@exclupen.com>

Marshall Roch wrote:
J> I'm mainly looking for a browser check. I've got Firebird (yesterday's 
H> nightly) and IE6, but I need others... especially Macs.  I know that 
F> IE/Mac has a huge horiz. scroll due to the stock ticker, but there 
G> doesn't seem to be any way to fix that without causing all kinds of 
> other problems.

4Easier to help me if I include a link, huh?  Oops..

-http://www.exclupen.com/projects/blogshares/

--
Marshall Roch

�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [158]
=================
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:48:39 -0800
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
,References: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
'Message-ID: <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>


Marshall,
HOn ie5.1.5mac the 'GO' button is shifted underneath the input field on 
Jyour search form. Also, the background is missing to the left of the top 
Fbanner leaving a blank white space. The ticker is missing completely.

IOn ns7.02mac the ticker is overlayed atop the blue 'Fantasy Blog Shares 
JMarket' rule and is unreadable. It also takes up so many cpu cycles that 
9its making typing this creep along slowly and painfully.
--
Tony
�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [159]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:24:17 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <000001c30d57$30f3b660$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


>  
> http://www.golfbreaks.com/

J> it with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
K> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
> need, lemme know.

Thanks for the heads up.

LI had only checked with Opera 6, and I think I changed the css for that bar
recently - since testing

Sam


�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [160]
=================
*From: sasha at amm.com.au (Sasha Gerrand)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:30:57 +1000
8Subject: [css-d] Re: Moovigation - a screenshot request
8In-Reply-To: <oproadf2zb98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>
-Message-ID: <BAD315D1.BFD0%sasha@amm.com.au>

Try these:

3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-camino1.jpg
3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-camino1.jpg

3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-safari1.jpg
3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-safari2.jpg

HTH - both on OS X 10.2.5

Cheers,
Sasha

--=AD--=AD--=AD--=AD--
Sasha Gerrand
sasha@amm.com.au
+61 425 745 207

EOM=20

MNOTICE - This message and any attached files may contain information that i=
s
Lconfidential and/or subject of legal privilege intended only for use by the
Hintended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient or the person
Mresponsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, be advise=
d
Ithat you have received this message in error and that any dissemination,
Jcopying or use of this message or attachment is strictly forbidden, as is
Mthe disclosure of the information therein. If you have received this messag=
e
Fin error please notify the sender immediately and delete the message.

-> From: The Moose <moose@literarymoose.info>
#> Organization: LiteraryMoose.info
%> Reply-To: moose@literarymoose.info
(> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:41:52 -0500
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
6> Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
>=20
	> Hello,
>=20
L> I have played a bit with the display of the unordered lists when they are
L> used for navigation of a logical sequence of pages, and would like to ask
C> for screenshots from the following browsers: *Safari*, *Camino*,
> *Konqueror*.
>=20
F> There are two pages (I'd like to get screenshots for both from each
> browser):
>=20
=> http://www.literarymoose.info/=3D/destroy/moovigation.html
>=20
E> http://www.literarymoose.info/=3D/destroy/moovigation-variant.html
>=20
G> The first features generated content (with entities only) hidden via
L> html[xmlns] method, the second does not. Mozilla displays &#xxxx; instead
M> of the character on the second page (I don't know why). Opera7.1 behaves =
in
> both cases.
>=20
F> The size of screenshots does not matter, I'll be watching my inbox.
>=20
> thank you in advance,
>=20
	> Wojtek
>=20
> p.s. styles embedded.
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>=20
�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [161]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:34:47 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <000101c30d58$af49ac30$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


J> .. with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
K> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
> need, lemme know.

> -- Josh

;Just downloaded Opera 7.1 and I cannot see the problem ...

HIt looks as if your version of Opera is looking at the print stylesheet
E(try print previewing). What version are you using? It would be very
Guseful to see screenshots. Does anyone else know about Opera rendering
#css from a media=print stylesheet?

1.. maybe it is my use of the !important rule...?

FThe only issue I can see is that the text on the Features Venues goes
Cover the Request Brochure images (because of position: relative to
avoid the ie6 peekaboo bug)

Thanks

Sam

�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.753 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [162]
=================
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:42:17 +0200
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
4In-Reply-To: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
3References: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
)Message-ID: <oprobw0rt0yoq9u9@localhost>

JOn Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:26:22 -0500, Jason Estes <ckestes@bewb.org> wrote:

=>> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a
K>> global font size. Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the 
 >> same as IE6 in all cases)...

HIn Opera 7 and MSIE, you'll get behavior like Mozilla when you trigger 
KStandards mode. In Quirks mode rendering, font-sizes don't inherit into a 
Htables... In Opera 5-6 and MSIE 4-5.5 you are stuck, as these browsers 
don't have a Standards mode.

I> I tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
> 7.1 on WinXP
>
> <style type="text/css">
> body,td {font-size:0.7em;}
> </style>
>
I> Basically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
J> doesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
> Opera
>
> Looks good in all of them.

MIt shouldn't work that way according to the specs (TD fonts should be sized 
Lat .49 of the default size...), so it will probably break in Opera 7, MSIE 
H6 and Mozilla when you trigger Standards mode. But if you make sure to 
Ktrigger Quirks mode, this might be a compromise because it will also work 
in MSIE 4-5.5 and Opera 4-6.

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
@ making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com M
�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [163]
=================
4From: design at q7design.demon.co.uk (David Leader)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:35:04 +0100
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <p04330100bad1fbd43502@[194.222.231.193]>

DOn the topic of Safari uptake on MacOS X, I'd just like to mention 
Fthat at the moment Safari is the only Mac browser that supports Java 
C1.4. (I was suprised when I read this on a Mac Java list but I've 
Etested it and find that currently IE and Mozilla do not support the 
EJava 1.4 plugin) This may have nothing to do with css, but it has a 
Elot to do with the sort of reasons Mac users might switch to Safari 
Band why I presume Apple decided to have its own browser, i.e. to 
Densure Mac users were not dependent on third parties for access to 
$web content (e.g. on-line banking).

<It is clearly important from a css standpoint that as much 
Fconstructive criticism as possible is brought to bear to ensure that 
ESafari has good css support. One imagines Apple and the Safari will 
be receptive to this.

David
8From rick at starskiweb.co.uk  Mon Apr 28 09:10:55 2003
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:10:55 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
>In-Reply-To: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
=References: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
0Message-ID: <3EACE20F.6030806@starskiweb.co.uk>

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

G> Your <div id="myclear"> is empty, except for an absolute positioned 
J> image (which is taken out of the document flow any way). I deleted the 
L> 'width' on your #myclear, and added a non-breaking space in the div, and 
9> then your layout worked out exactly as in Mozilla 1.4.

FThanks for the advice Philippe, but I haven't managed to get mine to 
work using the above advice:-

+http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.2.htm

,The left border is still missing on IE5 mac

Iunless the person who is testing this for me has a different version of 
	mac IE5?
�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [164]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:46:49 +0900
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
1In-Reply-To: <3EACE20F.6030806@starskiweb.co.uk>
=Message-ID: <F34BB1E0-7955-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 05:10  PM, Rick Hurst wrote:

H> Thanks for the advice Philippe, but I haven't managed to get mine to 
 > work using the above advice:-
>
-> http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.2.htm
>
.> The left border is still missing on IE5 mac

,Comparing your stylesheet, and what I used:
#document-wrap {
	border-top:12px solid black;
	border-left:12px solid black;
	/*height: 100%;*/
}

II had commented out the height declaration, I should've mentioned it, I 
guess.

	Philippe
:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [165]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:19:14 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
3References: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
0 <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428061642.00bcf118@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>


>Joel Young wrote:
O> > resizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no

> > clue.


(At 12:44 AM 4/28/03, Felix Miata wrote:

+>Are you using an ancient Mozilla version?



NNo. I'm using 1.3... I use the most recent release of any browser I test on. 
�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [166]
=================
,From: tarquin at planetunreal.com (tarquin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:37:55 +0100
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
0Message-ID: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>

*what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
&as seen here to make rounded corners:

Hhttp://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

Gshould we avoid these because they are non-standard? (the same way we 
Eshould be avoiding IE-only stuff like scrollbar, filters, & marquee)

*is there a reference for these somewhere?

�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [167]
=================
,From: tarquin at planetunreal.com (tarquin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:47:05 +0100
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0References: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0Message-ID: <3EACF899.6050902@planetunreal.com>

tarquin wrote:

>
>
,> is there a reference for these somewhere?

found something:

Mhttp://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/nsextensions.htm
:-)

& started a page on the wiki

�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [168]
=================
+From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:24:32 -0400
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
=In-Reply-To: <000101c30d58$af49ac30$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>
7Message-ID: <002901c30d78$be93a6d0$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Sam Ellis (css-d) : 
=> Just downloaded Opera 7.1 and I cannot see the problem ...
> 
@> It looks as if your version of Opera is looking at the print 
> stylesheet
G> (try print previewing). What version are you using? It would be very
I> useful to see screenshots. Does anyone else know about Opera rendering
%> css from a media=print stylesheet?

)http://portalsmith.com/golfbreaks-ss.jpg

GOpera 7.02, Win XP.  Did a print preview, and while some of the layout
Gchanged, it didn't change much... Text links still unreadable, but the
?content switched from anchored left to centered, and the green
&backgrounds were dropped.  HTH a bit.

--Josh

�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [169]
=================
#From: liorean at f2o.org (liorean)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:55:49 +0200
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0References: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>

tarquin wrote:
,> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
(> as seen here to make rounded corners:
J> http://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

CThere are three reasons for vendor specific properties and values:
F1. Implementing a not-yet-standard css property, such as css3 rounded
	corners.
B2. Allowin the specification of behaviors and handling in css for
Ebehaviors that you can not for the momemnt achieve with your current
supported base of standards.
A3. Adding new functionality that neither can be defined in other
Ftechnologies for the web or is upcoming in an upcoming new or updated

standard.

EIn moz, we see quite a few cases of 1 and some of 2. I suppose there
:might be some 3 as well, but if so I don't know about it.
=In op7, we see 2 alone, from what I can tell - if their "web
4specifications supported in opera" page is correct.
/In ie, we see mainly a bunch of 3 and a few 2.
GIn saf/konq, I have no idea what may or may not exist when it comes to
4this, but I would think the engine is rather clean.

I> should we avoid these because they are non-standard? (the same way we 
G> should be avoiding IE-only stuff like scrollbar, filters, & marquee)

%You should stay clearly away from 3.
 You should consider avoiding 2.
%I see no reason to stay away from 1.

IYou should use 1 in combination with the W3C upcoming if you wish to use
that feature.

,> is there a reference for these somewhere?

1Oh, they are spread over the vendors using them.
Opera:
R<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/operaextensions.htm>
9Opera 7: <http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/#xml-css-link>
	Mozilla:
l<http://unstable.elemental.com/mozilla/build/latest/mozilla/dom/dox/interfacensIDOMNSCSS2Properties.html>, 

O<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/nsextensions.htm>
Microsoft:
I<http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/css/reference/attributes.asp>

FThere are also a few that MSDN doesn't contain any documentation for,
<like the expression(jsExpression) syntax. (It only contains
Idocumentation for the getExpression, setExpression and removeExpression,
Cand this document is about the best I can find about expression():
G<http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/recalc.asp>)

-- 
&liorean <mailto:liorean@user.bip.net>

HViewStyles, ViewScripts, ToggleStyles and GraphicsInfo bookmarklets and
)Theme Switcher, Cookies Handler scripts:
#<http://liorean.web-graphics.com/>

�13:43:45.754 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [170]
=================
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:52:03 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
(	<004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL>
4Message-ID: <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>

Hi Al,

>
> Here're a couple more:
G> http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
> problematic on Mac)

Msorry to disappoint you, but your menue doesn't work as intended on MSIE 5.0
Jon W2k. The menue just scrolls with the rest of the page. no fixed menue.
unfortunately.

greetings from germany,

Jens Grochtdreis
�13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [171]
=================
-From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:04:11 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <002901c30d78$be93a6d0$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <001301c30d7e$4ba8cd20$6300a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


+> http://portalsmith.com/golfbreaks-ss.jpg
I> Opera 7.02, Win XP.  Did a print preview, and while some of the layout
I> changed, it didn't change much... Text links still unreadable, but the

Kthe links are meant to be small - this is for printing and if they are too
Jbig they much up the entire site (and take up too much screen realestate)
Kand as most people do not want to read them, they are in fine print - only
Iif the person wants to go to the page ... probably me being too hi-tech!

Glooks like Opera 7.02 is using all the !important css in the print.css
Estylesheet throughout the entire media range, instead of print only.

?I'm going try to download 7.02 to test, if not will post again

Cheers
Sam

�13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [172]
=================
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:09:39 -0300
.Subject: (resend) Re: [css-d] ems or percent?
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

=(I think the email below may have gotten lost in the shuffle
'over the weekend, so I'm resending it.
8If I've broken any etiquette by doing so, I apologize.)



!At 09:20 PM 4/26/03, Mike wrote:
><snip>
N>On the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
J>your opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
H>settings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
>users, most of the time?
>
>Mike
>Edinburgh, Scotland




LYes! This is what my original question was about, and I'm glad you brought 
Lit back around, Mike. Hopefully someone will have an answer for us. In the 
Kmeantime, let's see if I understand a few things.  Someone please tell me 
<if I'm even close to knowing what I'm talking about.... :-)

===============
Scenario 1:
AAssume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}

?This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
#of the browser's default. Yes? No?
===============
Scenario 2:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 1em}

AAll text on the page will still be 80% of the browser's default,
=because basically 1em = 100%, and I'm only setting it to 20%
$less (which is 80%).  Right? Wrong?
===============
Scenario 3:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 0.9em}

:Okay, NOW the text will actually be just under 80% of the
:browser default, because it is 9/10ths of 80% of default.
===============
Scenario 4:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 100%}

=Again, the text remains at only 80% of default, because I've
Cset it to be 100% of the body font size (not that I would do that,
it's just for example)
===============
One more... Scenario 5:
body {font-size: 100%}
0.classname {font-size: 1em} or {font-size: 80%}

FHere, the text will either be the full browser default, or 80% of it.
Right?
===============


HIf all the above are correct, then it's just as easy to set the body at
D100% all the time, and simply use smaller percentages for different
sizes.
BThat, or do body {font-size: 100%}, and use various em sizes, and
Ceverything should work out - keeping the sizes within a reasonable
range, of course.

8Did I reach home base, or am I somewhere in left field?


Joel
�13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [173]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:11:27 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234D@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

HCorrect me if I'm wrong, but min-height isn't supported in IE 5 on Mac,
right?

BIn that case, how do I get an element to adapt its size after its
	content,
8but that it will still be a specified height otherwise.

BFor example, I want a DIV to be at least 20 px height, but if its
content is more,=20
Fthen I want it to adapt its size (and the whole document's flow after
that).

?This works with min-height:20px; in Opera, Gecko etc, and with
height:20px; in IE on PC.
GBut in IE 5 on Mac the height is only 20 px no matter the content (and
if the content is
0more, it just flows outside of the element...).

Any solutions for this?


/Robert
1From rijk at opera.com  Mon Apr 28 13:13:59 2003
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:13:59 +0200
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
(In-Reply-To: <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>
KReferences: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com> <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>
)Message-ID: <oprob9llpayoq9u9@localhost>

EOn Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:55:49 +0200, liorean <liorean@f2o.org> wrote:

> tarquin wrote:
->> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
)>> as seen here to make rounded corners:
K>> http://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

GThis page looks fine (maybe a bit boxy) in Opera 7. No harm done, IMO.

E> There are three reasons for vendor specific properties and values:
H> 1. Implementing a not-yet-standard css property, such as css3 rounded
> corners.
E> 2. Allowing the specification of behaviors and handling in css for
G> behaviors that you can not for the momemnt achieve with your current
> supported base of standards.
C> 3. Adding new functionality that neither can be defined in other
H> technologies for the web or is upcoming in an upcoming new or updated
> standard.
[..]
'> You should stay clearly away from 3.
"> You should consider avoiding 2.
'> I see no reason to stay away from 1.
>
K> You should use 1 in combination with the W3C upcoming if you wish to use
> that feature.

IFor both 1, 2 and 3 it is important that the page doesn't depend on the 
Inon-standard property to be useful and good looking. But even when they 
Kdon't cause problems in other browsers, it is best to avoid such features 
Lif you want to build robust public pages. Even in category 1, the property 
Kmight change a bit before it gets into the standard, and it might be also 
Kproblematic when someone else has to take over the maintainance of a page.

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
> making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com
�13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.755 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [174]
=================
/From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:30:01 +0900
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234D@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
=Message-ID: <220371DF-7975-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


=On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 09:11  PM, Robert Nyman wrote:

J> Correct me if I'm wrong, but min-height isn't supported in IE 5 on Mac,
	> right?

Nope, doesn't work in IE5 mac.
>
D> In that case, how do I get an element to adapt its size after its
> content,
:> but that it will still be a specified height otherwise.
>
D> For example, I want a DIV to be at least 20 px height, but if its
> content is more,
H> then I want it to adapt its size (and the whole document's flow after
	> that).
>

BUsing the intrinsic (is that the word ?) height of the element ? 
?Without a real sample it is a bit difficult to say, of course.
;div {border:1px solid #000; padding: 2px, font-size:12px; 
3line-height:14px;} should give something you want.

Or do I miss something ?

	Philippe


:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
=IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>
�13:43:45.761 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.761 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [175]
=================
#From: eoghan at redry.net (eoghan)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:49:01 +0100
 Subject: [css-d] select problem
)Message-ID: <3EAD233D.3000203@redry.net>

hello,
Di am referring to a problem that occurs in particular with ie5+ on 
windows. the
J<select> form element is apparently described as a "windowed elements"...
Eso this means that they should paint themselves on top of all other 
elements on a
Hpage. so, when using dropdown menus, selects will appear through them. 
this behaviour
Fdoesnt occur in nn7/moz1+ or firebird0.5. however, these browsers do 
have problems
Ewhen the "multiple" attribute is applied to the select, or when the 
select is opened.
Di was wondering if anyone else had come across this issue. using a 
z-index in this
Fcase will not work. and apart from avoiding this problem, has anyone 
come up with
&any workarounds for this issue. for a
small example, see here:

-http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/css/001.html

thanks

�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [176]
=================
.From: moose at literarymoose.info (The Moose)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:45:20 -0500
4Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
.In-Reply-To: <3EAD1DF2.1020700@jeugdhuisx.be>
-References: <3EAD1DF2.1020700@jeugdhuisx.be>
7Message-ID: <oproca1u1m98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>

M> You'd have to encode the entities with the \xxxx values. I think they are 
 > in hex, but am not 100% sure.

MWell, thank you kindly, my good sir! You have helped me more than you would 
Jthink. I have now made the variant obsolete, and rewrote the entities in 
Mhex (eg. content: "\xxxx", " ";). Now I must start rewriting where thus far 
I had misused it.

grazie,

Wojtek

Hp.s. I now have screenshots complete. Many thanks to everyone who sent 
theirs.
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Mon Apr 28 13:57:44 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:57:44 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234E@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

5> line-height:14px;} should give something you want.
> Or do I miss something ?

'Line-height won't help in this case...

Well, take this example:

div.levelItem{
	position:relative;
	width:100px;
	border:1px solid black;	=09
	background:#ffffa2;
	min-height:20px;
}

"and then for IE on PC I add this:

div.levelItem{
	height:20px;
}

HBut if the content is, for instance, a full sentence, I want the DIV to
expand its height
2according to the space that the sentence takes up
I(which works with min-height, and in IE on PC it resizes automatically).

2How do I get that kind of resizing for IE on Mac?


/Robert

�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [177]
=================
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:02:51 -0400
Subject: [css-d] Flash & CSS ?
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>


Dear all,

.I was asked the following question last week:

D"Can you use FLASH in the same way as you can with images in CSS to
7provide background and/or rollover effects for links".

IMy first reaction was no as (I believe) FLASH has to be the top layer of
Da web page and also how would you code the EMBED statement?  Then I
Dthought I'd ask here as CSS is still fairly new to me and maybe I'm
missing something.


Comments?

Thanks,

Dave
�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [178]
=================
3From: web2k2 at premonition.co.uk (Geoff Sheridan)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:39:17 +0100
Subject: [css-d] Flash & CSS ?
In-Reply-To: 
K <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>
References: 
K <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>
2Message-ID: <p0510030dbad2ddc8ef7c@[192.168.8.3]>

E>"Can you use FLASH in the same way as you can with images in CSS to
8>provide background and/or rollover effects for links".
>
J>My first reaction was no as (I believe) FLASH has to be the top layer of
E>a web page and also how would you code the EMBED statement?  Then I
E>thought I'd ask here as CSS is still fairly new to me and maybe I'm
>missing something.

?Your first reaction was right. Unless you did something like :
a:hover object {display:none;}
Din which case you can probably hide/show flash content on rollover.
6I haven't tested and certainly do not recommend this.
FWhat's the point, when flash contains it's own rollover events which 
)are likely to give a much better result?
AIt would be nice to be able to have flash content as background 
Bimages 'tho. I can imagine this being egregiously misused but it 
;would be very handy for all sorts of great visual effects.

Geoff
;From moronicbajebus at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 28 14:48:36 2003
1From: moronicbajebus at yahoo.com (Seamus Leahy)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:48:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
AMessage-ID: <20030428134836.91265.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com>


.--- tarquin <tarquin@planetunreal.com> wrote:
,> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?

7I think the -moz rules were created for effects in the
3user interface of Mozilla because XUL (the Mozilla
interface) uses CSS. 



#__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
/The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Mon Apr 28 14:51:43 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:51:43 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234F@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

!> div {height: 20px;} /*IE win*/
?> html>body div {min-height:20px; height:auto;} /*all others*/

EBut that doesn't solve my problem with IE on Mac. I have no problems
with
8getting it to work for IE on PC and all other browsers.

DThe only one that it doesn't work in is in IE on Mac, which doesn't
understand min-height,
Ghence it doesn't get the element to expand its size accordingly to the
!text, not even with height:auto.


/Robert
�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [179]
=================
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:12:39 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052FE@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

7> The only one that it doesn't work in is in IE on Mac


My bad...
8Using height:auto and line-height solved the problem...

/Robert
8From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Mon Apr 28 15:48:12 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:48:12 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] Redesign Problem
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C7420F@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

LI have got a problem with a redesign and am wondering if anyone can help me
out.

MI have a class that defines the look of a div and I apply it to each section
Cof the navigation bar on the left.  Oddly enough, the border color
Dcharacteristics are not being displayed on the home page (the other
Lcharacteristics do work), but do work on other pages.  The code "should" be
Lthe same, with the exception of no active "Home" link on the home page (the
Monly real code difference I can tell is that the other pages are being drawn
Kvia an include statement, but doing so on the home page still exhibits the

problem).

HThe home page is located at http://test.usna.com/, and if you click the
MEvents link you will see how it should be displayed.  I've looked and looked
Kat this and just can't figure out why the home page is not being displayed

properly.

Thanks for looking -

george
�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [180]
=================
3From: christopher at christopher.org (Christopher)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:24:18 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] ANNC: 50+ Headings
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052FE@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
9Message-ID: <BAD2BFE2.10978%christopher@christopher.org>

	Hi, all,

@Headings in Web pages--marked up with h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, or h6
Melements=8B-help the reader determine the purpose of sections in content. It
Halso does one other thing: it helps the reader judge if the material is
something they want to read.

JThe only problem is that the default rendering of those headings is often
visually bland.

KIn order to help people create better designed headings, I've released the
KCSS resource, 50+ Headings, where you can see up to fifty headings designs
and their variations.

JYou can submit their own heading variations as well--which represents the
"plus" in the title.

3< http://www.cssbook.com/resources/css/headings/ >


Best,
Christopher Schmitt
?  Author, "Designing CSS Web Pages" -- http://www.cssbook.com/
>  Web Design Specialist -- http://www.christopherschmitt.com/
�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.762 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [181]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:35:36 -0700
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
CMessage-ID: <OFD278A69D.7CC3E6CA-ON88256D16.00545AA2@capgroup.com>


Joel Young wrote:

?> So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:
>
>       body {font-size: .7em}
>       td {font-size: .7em}
>
I> This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule
text
> that Superman couldn't read.
>
>
L> So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing

L> is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers -

> aren't they?....
>
$>       (no body styling this time)
>       td {font-size: .7em}
>
H> That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a
> strong pair of glasses.

Welcome, Joel!

There are two tricks here:

H1) IE does not inherit font sizes through the table tag, but the td tag
Ldoes inherit correctly. Instead of the body/td style combo above, try this:

    body {font-size: 70%}
    table {font-size: 100%}

JThis tells IE to inherit the font size through the table, which will then
Eallow the td fonts to size correctly. It also doesn't cause any side
Leffects in more compliant browsers, because 100% of 100% is, well, 100%. If
Lyou have reasons to change font sizes for specific td's, this also lets you
Gdo so without worrying about clobbering the browser compatibility fix.

H2) Jason Estes mentioned the issue with setting font sizes in ems -- it
Icauses IE to do strange things when the browser is set to anything other
Lthan "Medium". I can't agree more strongly, with respect with the body font
Hsize. Basically, IE will misbehave if you use ems as the font-size that
2everything else is relative to, so something like

    body {font-size: 0.7em}
    cite {font-size: 0.9em}

Kwill shrink to unreadable proportions. If, however, you set your outermost
Lfont-size using percents, you can then make all other font sizes in ems, if
2you prefer reading them that way. In other words,

    body {font-size: 70%}
    cite (font-size: 0.9em}

will behave correctly.

HTH,

MikeL
�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [182]
=================
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:46:41 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
5In-Reply-To: <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
P	<004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL> <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>
/Message-ID: <3EAD4CE1.9010008@star-chaser.com>

Jens Grochtdreis wrote:
	> Hi Al,
> 
> 
>>Here're a couple more:
G>>http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
>>problematic on Mac)
> 
> 
O> sorry to disappoint you, but your menue doesn't work as intended on MSIE 5.0
L> on W2k. The menue just scrolls with the rest of the page. no fixed menue.
> unfortunately.
> 
> greetings from germany,
> 
> Jens Grochtdreis

@Why not take the time to read the material before posting? The 
Cinformation on the page makes no mention of it working in IE5 Win.

<quote>
B"It will work as intended in MSIE5-MAC, MSIE6-PC, Netscape 6.2+, 
GNetscape 7, Mozilla 1x, and Opera5+. It will degrade nicely in lesser 
browsers."
	</quote>

Gary

�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [183]
=================
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:13:50 -0400
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
*In-Reply-To: <oprob9llpayoq9u9@localhost>
5Message-ID: <BAD2CB7E.53E2B%chris@placenamehere.com>

Bon 4/28/03 8:13 AM, Rijk van Geijtenbeek at rijk@opera.com wrote:

> 
J> For both 1, 2 and 3 it is important that the page doesn't depend on the
J> non-standard property to be useful and good looking. But even when they
L> don't cause problems in other browsers, it is best to avoid such features
M> if you want to build robust public pages. Even in category 1, the property
L> might change a bit before it gets into the standard, and it might be also
M> problematic when someone else has to take over the maintainance of a page.

EI'd like reiterate the point about "change a bit" as there's nothing
Dstopping the VND in question not for changing the property at will.

FI'll take the -moz- extensions as an example. Those that are there to
Fprovide an implementation of the spec before its a recommendation are
Iexpected to change. Because the spec may change there is no promise of a
Ldirect translation from "-moz-property" to "property". When "property" gets
Gfinalized and support is in the browser -moz-property and property may
Iactually conflict so if you think you're smart by sneaking "property" in
Itheir for forward compatibility expect to have to edit your pages anyway
=(although I don't know what the odds of this happening are).

LThere is no promise of backwards compatibility within the extension itself.
A real example this time:

MThere was once a time before bug 195883 where -moz-opacity would accept both
D%age units and floating point values between 0 & 1. Well, we're now
Apost-195883 and %ages don't work anymore. Sucks to be anyone who
Kexperimented with them in the past only to have long forgotten demos break
(me included).

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
0[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]
�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [184]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:55:36 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>

�Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.

! 1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
 3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
 4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
 5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
/From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Apr 28 17:55:50 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:55:50 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304280947420.26619-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

4On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Ian Hickson (that's me) wrote:
+> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
>>
B>> The only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is
D>> "screen", so /technically/ other media types would never see the
>> embedded @media stuff.
>
I> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has delegated
I> authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS working group, who has
*> decided to change the default to "all".
>
G> Unfortunately I can't find a public reference to this decision. I'll
> look into it.

0I've found a formal reference to this decision:

c   http://hades.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/voyager-issues/HTML-4.01?id=528;expression=screen;user=guest

EThat's the relevant entry in the HTML working group issues database.

HTH,
-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
4From afternoon at uk2.net  Mon Apr 28 18:15:24 2003
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:15:24 +0100
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
;Message-ID: <000B1247-799D-11D7-88C8-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


DObviously this is not the complete answer, but I've had my copy of 
2Safari confused for the mythical NS 5 before now.

Ben


FOn Monday, Apr 28, 2003, at 17:55 Europe/London, Bill Creswell wrote:

G> Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is 
I> that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.
>
">  1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91
!>  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33
 >  3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10
>  4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8
>  5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7
>
> Bill Creswell
> Helpdesk/Webmaster
> Van Eerden Distribution
> http://www.vaneerden.com
> (616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [185]
=================
+From: dnelson at netbank.com (Dave Nelson)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:02:07 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OMessage-ID: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBA5@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>

KI think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 6.1
0was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x

-----Original Message-----
2From: Bill Creswell [mailto:BillC@VanEerden.com] 
&Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 12:56 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?


IWebtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that
Btracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.

! 1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
 3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
 4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
 5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
5From me at chrismcleod.net  Mon Apr 28 19:21:28 2003
+From: me at chrismcleod.net (Chris McLeod)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:21:28 +0100
ISubject: [css-d] a div that is at least the full height of the window...
FMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030428185406.00b18cd0@mail.qawebhosting.com>

MI've been trying to create a ALA style layout for a site template. This bit 
Jis all simple enough... However, I need the main content area to stretch 
Hthe full height of the window at the very least. The content area is a 
Mdifferent colour from the page background, and it looks a bit silly as just 
a block in the upper corner.

JI've tried height and min-height equal to 100% or auto, but neither have 
Cworked at all, if the positioning is done with floats or relative 
Kpositioning. If I set the positioning to absolute, it works but it forces 
-scroll bars, which is obviously undesirable.

LIs it possible to have a floated div fill the entire height of the window? 
KOr will I have to create the effect using a background image (which is my 
backup plan...)


Thanks,


Chris.
�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [186]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:26:41 +0100
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
0Message-ID: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>

HIs there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without 
%having to specifically overide them?

GWe are doing some work on a content management system interface where 
Jstyles have already been applied to selectors such as <p> and we want to 
C  "reset" them for certain situations without editing the default 
stylesheet.

Be.g. if the styles already applied in the default stylesheet are 
something like:-

)p {font-size:2em;color:red;margin:20px;}

:and in our custom interface we want to use something like

G#mystyle p {(ignore all styles already applied to p without overiding 
them one by one)}
�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.763 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [187]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:51:15 -0500
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
0References: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
7Message-ID: <003901c30db7$25e162d0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

I> Is there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without
'> having to specifically overide them?


MYou can use the specificity in CSS to override the values.  So if the values
)are originally set with p {declarations}
Jyou can use body p{declarations} which has a higher specificity.  You can
3replace body with whatever the parent selector is.

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [188]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:41:56 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>

L>I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 6.1
1>was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x

{Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4 (which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent string).\

Bill
<From svendtofte at svendtofte.com  Mon Apr 28 20:01:35 2003
1From: svendtofte at svendtofte.com (Svend Tofte)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:01:35 +0200
<Subject: SV: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
8In-Reply-To: <003901c30db7$25e162d0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
EMessage-ID: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>

JYou'd still have to override all the individual rules, no? Otherwise they
would cascade in.

D> You can use the specificity in CSS to override the values.  So if
> the values
+> are originally set with p {declarations}
L> you can use body p{declarations} which has a higher specificity.  You can
5> replace body with whatever the parent selector is.
�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [189]
=================
#From: ksoh at colby.edu (Karen Oh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:18:15 -0400
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
8In-Reply-To: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
7References: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
6Message-ID: <a05111b0dbad32e3aed12@[137.146.196.147]>


(>http://blogstreetjournal.com/index.php

Hi,
 not sure if you got feedback. .

Mac OS 9.2

IE5
Fonts are teeny
D3-column layout, 1st and 2nd col touch, 2nd and 3rd do not (have a 
little gutter between them).

02nd col is not vertically aligned with 1 and 3.

NN4.7
:Not that legible--degrades poorly, overlapping text, etc.

NN7
;Looks Great! (Fonts may be a little bigger. . . like 12px)

hth,
karen
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Mon Apr 28 20:19:31 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:19:31 -0500
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
7Message-ID: <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> You'd still have to override all the individual rules, no? Otherwise they
> would cascade in.
>


2In the original email he said they were set up as

p {declarations}

and wanted something like

#mysite p {declarations}

Kbut instead of applying an ID which would require modifying the markup, he
could just use a selector like

J#wrapper p {declarations} where #wrapper is already the <div> surrounding
Mthe content area. of if he wanted to apply the styles to all the p's then he

could use

Dbody p {declarations} which would apply to all the p's on the page.

GIt's hard to account for specific circumstances of inheritance without
Iseeing the code though.  Maybe Rick could provide us some sample of what

he's got.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [190]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:16:29 -0400
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
1In-Reply-To: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
0References: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
4Message-ID: <17715762453.20030428151629@mrclay.org>

6Monday, April 28, 2003, 2:26:41 PM, Rick Hurst wrote:
LRH> Is there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without 
)RH> having to specifically overide them?

BNo, *however*, you can use a copy of Mozilla's HTML.css file (the
Gbrowser's default stylesheet) as a guide to help you return properties
Cto their original values.  If you know a property was set and that
;property can have a value of "inherit", set it to inherit.

JRH> We are doing some work on a content management system interface where
%RH> styles have already been applied

GIf a stylesheet is out of your control, it's out of your control.  You
Ecan disable a stylesheet with javascript, but this isn't a solution.
FYour situation is similar to writing a user stylesheet - In your case
Hthe author is your CMS.  The only way is to redefine all the properties
you need control over.

FThis is another good reason to write stylesheets to take advantage of
Dinheritance.  It easier for everyone to write stylesheets to extend
the existing one.

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [191]
=================
0From: lists at dramatic.co.nz (Richard Grevers)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:45:36 +1200
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>
IReferences: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>
)Message-ID: <oprocuiajczs1r4a@localhost>

IOn Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:41:56 -0400, Bill Creswell <BillC@VanEerden.com> 
!gave utterance to the following:

K>> I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 
>> 6.1
3>> was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x
>
J> Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4 
6> (which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent string).\
>
JOr any other Mozilla from around 0.5 onwards - False reports of Netscape 
:5.0 have been cropping up in stats for a year or two now.

-- 
HUsing M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
7From gary at star-chaser.com  Mon Apr 28 20:54:02 2003
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:54:02 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
IReferences: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
/Message-ID: <3EAD86DA.9090706@star-chaser.com>

Bill Creswell wrote:
�> Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.
> 
#>  1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
">  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
!>  3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
>  4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
>  5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 
> 
Elooks like your logs are identifying Mozilla as Netscape, All gecko 
Fbased browsers id themselves as mozilla/5.0 unless they have been re 
Ibranded. you have to look at the whole string to determine what browser 
it is.

example netscape 7.0 string
CMozilla/5.0 (windows; U; NT4.0; en-us) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0

A mozilla string
:  Mozilla/5.001 (windows; U; NT4.0; en-us) Gecko/25250101

IIf they have been re branded then they will still use Mozilla and gecko 
in their string.

C  Mozilla/9.876 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i686, en) Gecko/25250101 
 Netscape/5.432b1 (C-MindSpring)


HTH
Gary


Gary Bland
StarChaser Web Architecture
http://star-chaser.com
 Building Tomorrow's World Today
�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [192]
=================
2From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:08:15 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
(In-Reply-To: <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>
GReferences: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com> <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>
,Message-ID: <3EAD8A2F.4080603@exclupen.com>

Tony Bounds wrote:

> Marshall,
J> On ie5.1.5mac the 'GO' button is shifted underneath the input field on 
L> your search form. Also, the background is missing to the left of the top 
H> banner leaving a blank white space. The ticker is missing completely.

4I'm at a loss to why that background isn't working.

 This was the rule for that div:


#header {
padding-right: 10px;
9background: url('images/logo_bg.gif') top left repeat-x;
text-align: right;
}

8I just changed the 's to "s, let me know if that helps.

K> On ns7.02mac the ticker is overlayed atop the blue 'Fantasy Blog Shares 
L> Market' rule and is unreadable. It also takes up so many cpu cycles that 
;> its making typing this creep along slowly and painfully.

GI don't know what to do about that ticker... It's from DevEdge[1], but
Hit doesn't work very well in Netscape anyway.  To get it to stay inside
Ethe width that I need it, I had to set it absolutely inside the main
Fcolumn div, which has margins the size of the left and right columns.
IHowever, it was overlapping the title (BlogShares - Blah blah blah) so I
?gave it a top: -20px; which causes that overlap of the logo in
0Opera7/Win too.  Any ideas on what to do there?

II'm not sure what to do about the slowness of it.. Does anyone know of a
Ecross-browser ticker that uses HTML to store the content (instead of
embedding it in a JS)?

--
Marshall Roch

D[1] http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/examples/2001/stock-ticker/


�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.764 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [193]
=================
2From: cicero2002 at centrum.cz (bill shakespeare)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:16:25 +0200
"Subject: [css-d] Redesign Problem
@Message-ID: <20030428201632Z317121-615+143500@mail2.centrum.cz>


George,

EThere are many, many "deep-water mines" concealed from an untrained 
Beye in your code.  Incidentally, whatever happened to those mine 
Gsniffing dolphins, plowing the waters of the Gulf ?  The last I heard 
-of them was a week or so into the Operation.

Problemo Uno:

FYour front page sports a different doctype from that of Events.htm.  
4Believe it or not, I may make a helluva difference.

Problemo Due:

0Your front page sports, furthermore, this line:

,<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>

GI recommend tossing it out.  Most of the time it's more of a nuisance 
6than a benefit.  It may send IE6/Win into a tailspin.

Problemo Tre:

AThe best practice calls for introducing a stylesheet before any 
JavaScript.

DRectifying the problems does not guarantee a desired effect.  Yet, 
it's a very good start.


--------------------
�Vyhrajte kuchy� za 200 000 K�, leteck� z�jezd a dal�� zaj�mav� ceny! Z��astn�te se �ten��sk� ankety IDE�LN� MU� na http://zena.centrum.cz/ideal


�13:43:45.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [194]
=================
5From: incoming at kubaton.com (incoming@kubaton.com)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:42:39 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
KMessage-ID: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>

,Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?

http://riotgrrrl.com/

GThe "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
Jhaving it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
Icouldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?

_Lea
�13:43:45.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [195]
=================
.From: csslist at theparagon.org ({ schaapy })
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:01:39 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
LIn-Reply-To: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
3Message-ID: <BAD30EF3.1F95%csslist@theparagon.org>



I would do something like:


#header {
    height: 15px;
}

#header.letters {
    float: left;
}



<div id="header">
!    <div class="letters">r</div>
!    <div class="letters">i</div>
!    <div class="letters">o</div>
!    <div class="letters">t</div>
</div>


IGive each letter a transparent background - this will let you change the
'color of the top bar if you so choose.

------------------------------
Aaron Schaap
www.theparagon.org

+They tell me the internet never sleeps ...
1... Evidently, that means I don't get to either.

> From: <incoming@kubaton.com>
(> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:42:39 -0400
.> To: "'Css-D'" <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
?> Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
> 
.> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
> 
> http://riotgrrrl.com/
> 
I> The "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
L> having it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
K> couldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?
> 
> _Lea
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 
�13:43:45.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [196]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:13:30 -0500
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
7Message-ID: <008301c30dcb$050b1380$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>


.> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
>
> http://riotgrrrl.com/
>
I> The "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
L> having it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
K> couldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?


LHere you go, I couldn't tell if it worked perfectly cause I didn't have the
+images, but looks ok from what I can tell.

A<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//Ddiv HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>
<head>
" <title>Untitled Document</title>
J <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
=   <link href="global.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
   <style type="text/css">
    body {
    margin:0;
    padding:0;
}
   .piece {
    text-align:center;
 width:6%;
; background-image:url(images/top/background.png) repeat-x;
 float:left;
 }
   .heading2 {
    clear:both;
 }
   </style>


</head>

<body>

<div id="topbanner">
K  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/left.png" width="16" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/i.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/o.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/t.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/g.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r2.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r3.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r4.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/l.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
J  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/dot.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/c.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/o2.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/m.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
L  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/right.png" width="16" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
</div>

7<p class="heading2">New &amp; Improved Coming Soon</p>

</body>

</html>

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


�13:43:45.765 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.772 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.772 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [197]
=================
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:13:32 -0400
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
CReferences: <OFD278A69D.7CC3E6CA-ON88256D16.00545AA2@capgroup.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAD997C.4DB1@ij.net>

#Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
 
> Joel Young wrote:
 
A> > So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:

!> >       body {font-size: .7em}
> >       td {font-size: .7em}

P> > This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule text
!> > that Superman couldn't read.

N> > So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing

N> > is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers -

> > aren't they?....

&> >       (no body styling this time)
> >       td {font-size: .7em}

J> > That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a
> > strong pair of glasses.
 
> There are two tricks here:
 
J> 1) IE does not inherit font sizes through the table tag, but the td tag
N> does inherit correctly. Instead of the body/td style combo above, try this:
 
>     body {font-size: 70%}
>     table {font-size: 100%}
 
L> This tells IE to inherit the font size through the table, which will then
G> allow the td fonts to size correctly. It also doesn't cause any side
N> effects in more compliant browsers, because 100% of 100% is, well, 100%. If
N> you have reasons to change font sizes for specific td's, this also lets you
I> do so without worrying about clobbering the browser compatibility fix.
 
J> 2) Jason Estes mentioned the issue with setting font sizes in ems -- it
K> causes IE to do strange things when the browser is set to anything other
N> than "Medium". I can't agree more strongly, with respect with the body font
J> size. Basically, IE will misbehave if you use ems as the font-size that
4> everything else is relative to, so something like
 
>     body {font-size: 0.7em}
>     cite {font-size: 0.9em}
 
M> will shrink to unreadable proportions. If, however, you set your outermost
N> font-size using percents, you can then make all other font sizes in ems, if
4> you prefer reading them that way. In other words,
> 
>     body {font-size: 70%}
>     cite (font-size: 0.9em}
> 
> will behave correctly.

ISince Matthew Davey started the ems or percent? thread over the weekend,
FI've been playing around with IE6 off and on trying to understand the
@pattern. NAICT so far, and using standards mode exclusively, IE
Dmisbehaves on font-size inheritance under more conditions than just
.tables. I just haven't found the pattern yet.

HFor example, at http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ie/IE6tB.html, which
Ehas only two font-size rules applied to the whole page (table=100% &
Gtd=.8em), upon setting IE6 to "smaller" and Gecko to 13px, the first 6
Enon-blank rows (1 apparent paragraph) display the same font sizes in
2both Gecko and IE, since all are specified in px.

AThe next apparent paragraph (3 rows) match the first two rows at
I13px=medium and 12px=small. In the next row, Gecko shows x-small at 10px
3(leaving 9px for xx-small), while IE drops to 9px.

HThe 3rd apparent paragraph (3 rows) shows matches only in the first row
Hat 13px=medium. The next two rows exhibit the mis-sizing problem in IE,
Iwhile they display as expected in Gecko, which correctly applies .8em to
Athe 2nd row and .8emX.8em=.64em to the third row. Note that this
Fparagraph is three nested divs, no tables, and yet what IE appears to
Ehave done is apply .8emX.8em to row two, and .8emX.8emX.8em=.51em or
(.8emX.8emX.8emX.8em=.41em to row three.

FNext 2 paragraphs/rows are simply for reference for what follows, but
Enote that .8em is smaller in IE, even though the default is the same
13px.

FLast, is a three row table, with another table in the 2nd row. Again,
EGecko renders exactly as expected. In contrast, IE, which supposedly
Ifubars em text sizing *too small* if a % size is not set in body or html
Fand not set in prefs to medium, displays the first two rows, sized in
(ems, *larger* than Gecko. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

?Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
�13:43:45.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [198]
=================
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:26:14 -0500
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
3References: <BAD30EF3.1F95%csslist@theparagon.org>
7Message-ID: <008901c30dcc$cc8789b0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

>
> I would do something like:
>
> #header {
>     height: 15px;
> }
>
> #header.letters {
>     float: left;
> }
>
>
>
> <div id="header">
#>     <div class="letters">r</div>
#>     <div class="letters">i</div>
#>     <div class="letters">o</div>
#>     <div class="letters">t</div>
	> </div>

JThe only problem with this is that you didn't explicitly set the width of
Ethe letters, which is required for floats.  That is until CSS 2.1 is
Jfinalized.  If you use this without explicit declaration of width it will
@break in IE 5.x on the mac, most other browsers will display it
appropriately..


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org



�13:43:45.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [199]
=================
*From: andrewyao at yahoo.com (Andrew Yao)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
AMessage-ID: <20030428224834.33497.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com>


Hi Folks,

7There is a subtle effect with both solutions presented
2so far: when you resie the browser width so it is
7smaller than the combined width of all the images, the
7banner will wrap into multiple lines.. I don't know if
this is the desired effect.

-I propose to use multiple spans in a div and
white-space:nowrap 

<html>
	<head>
#		<title>Untitled Document</title>
		<style type="text/css">
			#topbanner {
				white-space:nowrap;
5				background-image:url(images/top/background.png);
 				background-repeat:repeat-x;
			}
			#topbanner span {
				width:6%;
			}
		</style>
		</head>
	<body>
		<div id="topbanner">
3			<span><img src="images/top/left.png" width="16"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/r.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/i.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/o.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/t.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/g.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r2.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r3.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r4.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/l.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
2			<span><img src="images/top/dot.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/c.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/o2.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/m.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
4			<span><img src="images/top/right.png" width="16"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
			</div>
		</body>
</html>

cheers

Andrew

#__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
/The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
3From steve at mrclay.org  Tue Apr 29 00:20:41 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:20:41 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
LIn-Reply-To: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
5Message-ID: <156730414296.20030428192041@mrclay.org>

@Monday, April 28, 2003, 4:42:39 PM, incoming@kubaton.com wrote:
1ikc> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
ikc> http://riotgrrrl.com/

+Fun stuff.  http://mrclay.org/secret/riot/
EThis uses all spans and background-images, so no messy imgs or block
2containers in markup.  A min-width prevents wrap.

Moz/Opera7: works great.
'IE6: fine, but right piece is missing.
Others: shudder to imagine.

?Since this is all basically presentational markup, I'd make an
9average-sized img and put it in a noscript element, then
Gdocument.write in all this markup from an external .js file.  At least
3you'll have cleaner documents and the mess cached.

EOr you might experiment with an img stretched horizontally with CSS,
Cit might not look as tight, but would be much cleaner and possibly
more reliable:

G<img (left piece) /><img style="width:80%" ... /><img (right piece) />

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org
�13:43:45.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [200]
=================
8From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:36:12 +0100
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
6In-Reply-To: <156730414296.20030428192041@mrclay.org>
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
@ <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
3Message-ID: <l03130317bad36b51335b@[192.168.0.36]>

2>ikc> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
>ikc> http://riotgrrrl.com/
>
,>Fun stuff.  http://mrclay.org/secret/riot/

LWow, looks like everyone's stepped up to the bat on this one - mine's not a
Imillion miles from Steve's though I think mine is just that bit sleeker.
JHowever, what with the embarrassment of riches now on display, I can't be
Abothered to finish it but I think the proof of concept is there.

6<http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/cssjunk/Riotgirl.mhtml>

LOf course, I'd junk the images as text and just justify the text but that's
just me...



�13:43:45.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.773 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [201]
=================
-From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:33:52 EDT
+Subject: [css-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <1ea.79417d2.2bdf2270@aol.com>

@In a message dated 4/28/2003 1:36:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ironmike@inav.net writes:


I> <.bold> Is this bold in your reader? <.h2>It should be in regular text

OI think it's fine, but I don't think it will be picked up by the rest of this 
List.

MI am interested in the list you refer to. If you could send some info on it 
Mto me, I'd appreciate being able to check it out. Thanks for the suggestion.


Curt
8From holnkids at netscape.net  Tue Apr 29 03:47:36 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:47:36 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
6Message-ID: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>

1Webapprentice <webapprentice@onemain.com> wrote:

,>http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html
>
I>The middle white area, where there is a link to "See the style sheet," 
L>is not stretched all the way. �I'd like to stretch the white area so it 
@>almost reaches the right white area but not colliding with it.
>
D>I've tried "width: auto" and "width: 100%," but this doesn't work.

qHi Stephen - You have a couple of options here, and which you chose may depend on what else you put on the page.

�To use absolute positioning as currently written on the div#contentarea and get the browsers to expand a greater distance than the short amount of text you have in there now, specifiy a width for #contentarea. You might choose your min-width value for this. Depending on the browser size and/or screen resolution of your user, the gap will be wider or narrower (or non-existant) with this method. I suspect that this probably isn't what you want to have to deal with.

�Another option is to use relative positioning instead, and use right margining to set the distance away from the right border, much like you already have. This will allow the div#contentarea to expand the full width of the area available, as long as it is greater than the min-width you have set. You will also have to adjust the top position, and you shouldn't need the width property at all. 

#contentarea {
 � �other: styles;
( � �position: relative;/* change */
4 � �top: 46px; � � � �/* change also */
6 � �/*width: auto;*/ /* probably not necessary */

�The min-width property will keep the #contentarea from collapsing beyond the value you have set as the browser narrows, but the #rightnavarea will slide on top of the #contentarea as the browser is narrowed beyond the min-width (except in IE-win which doesn't recognize min-width). If you want that middle column fluid in all browsers, remove the min-width property.

HTH,

~holly




C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
<From webapprentice at onemain.com  Tue Apr 29 05:02:46 2003
3From: webapprentice at onemain.com (Webapprentice)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:02:46 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
7In-Reply-To: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>
6References: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>
+Message-ID: <3EADF966.6080700@onemain.com>


Hi Holly,
Thank you for the quick reply.

IYou are correct that absolute positioning + min-width was not the way I 
Hwanted go.  I  wanted the middle column to be fluid, much like the old 
/HTML table hack of setting a td width to 100%.

HYour second option of relative positioning intrigued me.  I have never 
Dquite gotten that to behave properly, so I've always used absolute 
9positioning.  I had a lot of problems trying to combine 
Hrelatively-positioned elements with absolutely-positioned elements.  I 
,probably don't understand page flow enough.

FI've employed your relatively-positioned idea, and it works.  I must 
Hhave been very close to solving my problem, since I only had to change 
3two properties for #contentarea, position and top.

+http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html

<I'm kind of amazed that relatively-positioned elements and 
.absolutely-positioned elements can cooperate.

5I have to examine relative positioning more closely.

Thank you Holly.

Sincerely,
Stephen
�13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [202]
=================
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:01:46 +0100
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
8In-Reply-To: <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
,	<005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
,Message-ID: <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>

Jason Estes wrote:

4> In the original email he said they were set up as
> 
> p {declarations}
> 
> and wanted something like
> 
> #mysite p {declarations}

DI probably wasn't being specific enough - i'll explain the set-up:-

IThere are two templates involved - one CMS admin template which already 
Ehas a stylesheet attached (and needs to stay attached), and we have 
Eattached our own additional stylesheet and one public site template 
Fwhich has just our style sheet. Within the admin template you create 
J"inner templates" such as "news item" which are inserted into the public 
Gsite template, but the problem is when you try to preview these inner 
Jtemplates within the admin template, they also inherit the global styles 
from the admin style sheet.

GThe admin style sheet has rules defined for p, h1, h2 etc and so does 
Iour public style sheet, and although we can redefine each of these rule 
Fby rule, this means we would need to add loads of extra rules to our 
(public style sheet to catch everything.

JI was trying to find a way to stop the inheritance for everything within 
Ba particular div without having to overide the styles one by one.

Hope thats clearer!
�13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [203]
=================
.From: andy at webprojects.co.uk (Andy Walker)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:48:42 +0100
4Subject: [css-d] IE6  absolute positioning problems
3Message-ID: <002f01c30e23$c2a8ea40$c501a8c0@holly>

$Looks fine in everything except IE6

&I was using an ie6 - specific hack...

G#leftsidebar {position: absolute; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 140px; =
-background-color: white; text-align: right;}
@/* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
0* html #leftsidebar { /*\*/ left:-150px; /* */}

EThis worked fine, but in IE 5.0, it positioned the sidebar off the =
left-hand edge of the page.

I have changed it to...

G#leftsidebar {position: absolute; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 140px; =
-background-color: white; text-align: right;}
@/* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
-* html #leftsidebar { /*\*/ left:0px; /* */}

K...for the purposes of testing in ie 5.0, but the menu's now incorrectly =
positioned in ie6

&http://www.webprojects.co.uk/csslist/

any ideas?
DFrom Andreas.Reuterberg at staff.spray.se  Tue Apr 29 09:55:40 2003
@From: Andreas.Reuterberg at staff.spray.se (Andreas Reuterberg)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:55:40 +0200
6Subject: [css-d] 2 columns centered but unkown width?
FMessage-ID: <8E9E6E8B6A579344999D9B303F0B3B2D306312@safir.i.spray.se>

FI have a slight problem. I know how to solve it but I would like an =
Ieasier alternative. I have two columns, one of them is 200px wide (for =
Bexample) and the other one is sometimes 200px and sometimes 0px =
I(shouldn't be shown). The problem is that these two columns need to be =
Hcentered on the page and to do that I need to put them in a <div> and =
Kset that width to the width of them both together. But I need to get rid =
Gof that set width (300px) because the content in the right column is =
Hthere sometimes and sometimes it's not (it contains a banner). I know =
6how to do this with tables but.. Well, tables suck :)

9Can anyone help me? This is a short example of the code:

$<body style=3D"text-align:center;">
0	<div style=3D"width:300px; border:1px solid;">
H		<div style=3D"float:left; width:200px; border:1px solid;">200px</div>
;		<div style=3D"float:left; border:1px solid;">100px</div>
	</div>
</body>


Andreas
;From knaepkens.luc at pandora.be  Tue Apr 29 11:51:27 2003
(From: knaepkens.luc at pandora.be (Luc)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:51:27 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] IE and the fixed position
3Message-ID: <1448902190.20030429125127@pandora.be>

 Good afternoon list,      

B I read up on http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/ to make the fixed
B position work in IE but i seem to have a serious brain damage: i
 can't get it to work.

 My testpage:

@ http://users.pandora.be/luc_test/Projecten/Test/Pages/Test.htm

 sheet:

7 http://users.pandora.be/luc_test/Stylesheets/test.css

C The top banner and left nav should be fixed (Opera does it) but i
D can't get it fixed in IE.  Could some of you kind souls explain me
A how to implement the devnull hack or provide me the code for my
0 project so i can try and figger it out myself?
 
-- 
Best regards,
 Luc
---------------------------------------------
APowered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build
E2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera.

A"Acting is just a way of making a living, the family is life." -
Denzel Washington (1954-____).
---------------------------------------------

�13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [204]
=================
-From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:54:15 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B90@vec01.vaneerden.com>

>>Here're a couple more:
G>>http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
>>problematic on Mac)

~Caution to all: If you use this, remember that (800x600 Firebird) I can't do anything to make the bottom of the menu visible.

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
 
�13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [205]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:11:39 -0400
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
-In-Reply-To: <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
L <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH> <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
4Message-ID: <56127789375.20030429071139@mrclay.org>

1Tuesday, April 29, 2003, 2:01:46 AM, Rick wrote:
CRH> when you try to preview these inner templates within the admin
GRH> template, they also inherit the global styles from the admin style
RH> sheet.

EOoooh, you're preview environment is basically corrupted by an admin
FCSS file that won't be there for the user, but you need /some/ of the
Fadmin rules to keep the CMS "chrome" nice during preview.  Here are a
Fcouple ideas for which you'll need a partial admin.css file with what
you don't want stripped out:

E1) Write a bookmarklet that disables link to admin.css and adds link
?to partialAdmin.css  You'd have to run this with every preview

F2) Temporarily replace admin.css with partialAdmin.css on the server.
FTry to tie the code to do this into the preview function of your CMS.

DIf partialAdmin.css can't be created, your dev team would just have
Eto live with the admin "chrome" being unstyled during preview.  Just
)/move/ or disable admin.css temporarily.

HTH,
Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/
�13:43:45.774 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [206]
=================
)From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:24:48 +0100
FSubject: [css-d] Site check please... Global 3 Col Fluid CSS Template
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
L	<005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH> <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
)	<56127789375.20030429071139@mrclay.org>
2Message-ID: <00b501c30e4a$53696250$fd00a8c0@mike>

<I hope some kind folk can help with a site check... please!

IGiven recent discussions on this list, especially regarding em's v % and
Gbrowser compatibility/hacks, I decided to create global templates that
Laddress some regular issues. My aim is to create some sort of "Standard", a
Lgood starter for people to use which also explains how the page builds from
beginning to final design.

EThe first of these templates is for a 3 column, cross-browser, cross
Lplatform, standards compliant, table-less, fluid page. The first-draft home
page is at
Khttp://www.china-and-west.com/cssTemps/layout1_3col/three_col_home.htm and
its layout is at
Lhttp://www.china-and-west.com/cssTemps/layout1_3col/three_col_testbasic.htm
K. The layout test page is a bit messy but there so the code is seen at the
"place of relevance in the layout.

II would appreciate site checks on as many platforms as possible. To save
Jcluttering the list with replies I would appreciate a direct reply unless
:there are issues which may be of design relevance to all.

MOne intention is to fully comment both the CSS and page, so commentary is as
 important as design competence.

KI need the type of templates I am designing. At the same time I considered
Gthey should be available to all, thus saving re-invention and enabling
Hdesigners (especially those new to CSS) to grasp some issues constantly
Gdiscussed on the list. I am happy to act as a conduit (do the work) to
Kbenefit others. If, when finished, someone wants to put these templates on
Mtheir own CSS-help sites or in publications then okay, so long as this helps
towards good design standards.

KWhen this one's complete I intend to produce fully commented templates for
J2-column, photo album, and E-book pages. I'll add more if I'm not totally
exhausted after that!

Many thanks!

Mike A
Edinburgh, Scotland
4malaja@malaja.f9.co.uk (preferred for this subject)
mike@china-and-west.com
T. 00 44 31 664 6604
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [207]
=================
5From: ehmer at pacific.net.au (David & Angela Ehmer)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:49:00 +1000
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3Message-ID: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>

JAppreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
Hdetail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
explained examples.

Thanks
David
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [208]
=================
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:58:56 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
4Message-ID: <007301c30e4f$1b61def0$d201a8c0@jenspc>


Hi David,

Fmy favourite is "Eric Meyer on CSS" [http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/].
LIt is full of advanced CSS-Stuff which you only can understand, if you have
a little bit of CSS-practice.

DAnd I hope, there will be a 2nd Edition of his "normal" CSS-Book at

O'Reilly.

Greetings from Germany,

Jens
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [209]
=================
#From: ksoh at colby.edu (Karen Oh)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:13:04 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
4In-Reply-To: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
6Message-ID: <a05111b09bad42a3626b7@[137.146.196.147]>

(I got Eric Meyer's "Eric Meyer on CSS."

CIt's decent if you are interested in learning CSS from the start. 
CEach chapter is an case study of a design and he shows you how to 
Ccreate that design using CSS with step by step instructions. Good 
2beginner tutorial book, but not a reference book.

GIf you want a reference type of book that gives crude examples (boxes 
Eand text mainly, nothing designed or whatnot), the O'Reilly book on 
.CSS is a good base. That's how I am learning.

$Plus, there's tons of stuff online.

HTH
Karen


K>Appreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
I>detail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
>explained examples.
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Tue Apr 29 14:31:36 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:31:36 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
7Message-ID: <001701c30e53$a8dfa790$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> Appreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
J> detail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
> explained examples.


MI too have "Eric Meyer on CSS" and I think it's a fantastic tool.  It starts
Ewith simple pages in tables and progresses through entire pages done
Lstrictly with CSS.  It delves into a few of the finer points of CSS which I
Mthink is great, plus there are online files you can download to "play along"
Hwith the book, which is infinitely more helpful than just reading text.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [210]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:58:03 -0700
4Subject: [css-d] IE6  absolute positioning problems
CMessage-ID: <OFF0EE69DE.6470F02F-ON88256D17.004BAB72@capgroup.com>


@[n.b.: I've reformatted the styles for folks whose mail readers
automatically wrap text...]

Andy wrote:

(> I was using an ie6 - specific hack...

> #leftsidebar {
>   position: absolute;
>   left: 0px;
>   top: 0px;
>   width: 140px;
>   background-color: white;
>   text-align: right;
> }
B> /* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
> * html #leftsidebar {

>   /*\*/
>   left:-150px;

>   /* */
> }

JI've seen that hack identified for hiding properties in Mac IE 5, but not

IE 6. Try

* html #leftsidebar {
	   /*\*/
   lef\t:-150px;
	   /* */
}

FThis assumes that Mac IE 5 works fine with left: 0px. The escaped "t"
Dcauses all IE versions except for 6.0 to ignore the style -- see "A
DModified SBMH" on http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BoxModelHack

GIf Mac IE needs the same fix, remove the comments. See Edwardson Tan's
great page on comment hacks at
Ihttp://www.info.com.ph/~etan/w3pantheon/style/commentbugs.html for other
variations.

HTH,

MikeL
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [211]
=================
9From: jazzsnot at optonline.net (jazzsnot@optonline.net)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:03:57 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
2Message-ID: <b4f13b2bfc.b2bfcb4f13@optonline.net>

�"Designing CSS Web Pages" is an amazing book, especially for design. It teaches you how to design pages properly and put CSS to use. It has made me think totally different after reading it. Highly recommended.

Roy
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [212]
=================
)From: gsam at trini0.org (Gerard Samuel)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:06:45 -0400
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
*Message-ID: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>

%Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
-With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
<<p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
=<div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
?<span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.

6Im just looking for verification on this observation.
HIf Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
to gain a "special" effect.

IFor example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not to 
use tables for layout.
IThe only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by line 
fashion is by ->
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
<div></div>
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

E(Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
:control the space between options, style the option text,
Gand if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
the form inputs.

(Thanks for any insight you may provide.
�13:43:45.775 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [213]
=================
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:14:27 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] what is troubling IE6?
5Message-ID: <132787639953.20030429111427@mrclay.org>

FLea's layout made me think of the old Mad Fold-Ins, so I put together
=this in CSS: http://mrclay.org/junk/mad/ (narrow the window)

FI know IE doesn't have min/max widths, but I don't see where the rest
Dof this is failing.  The wider inside image seems to be missing (or
/rendering at width:0).  Any ideas to fix this?

(Everything is held by abs. positioning:

outer div:
?|--- img ---|--- inside span ---|--- img --- | (max-width set)
,   left:0;        left:95px;       right:0;
                  right:95px;
                  display:block;
inside span:
|---- img ----|
  width:100%;

Steve

'PS: Where I can get a funnier fold-in?
-- 
http://mrclay.org
�13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [214]
=================
+From: dnelson at netbank.com (Dave Nelson)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:14:18 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OMessage-ID: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBB4@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>

1Bill Creswell [mailto:BillC@VanEerden.com] said:

J>> I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of
6.1
3>> was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x
>
I> Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4
6(which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent > string).\
>
> Bill

JI downloaded and installed Netscape 6 from the evolt archive and if it is
Ethe same install from the initial release I was wrong. It is clearly
identified as Netscape 6

@userAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; m18)
Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0

-My own stats from AWStats so far this month:
23 million hits total
91% IE
 4% NS

Netscape5   250854
Netscape6.0   1832 
�13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [215]
=================
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:26:50 +0100
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
+In-Reply-To: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
;Message-ID: <FF8EE716-7A56-11D7-BCD5-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


E<span> and <div> are unstyled tags and contain no style properties, 
Cexcept that span is inline in it's display and div is block. This 
!creates the effect you describe.

B<p> on the other hand has more default properties. Commonly this 
@involves a margin or padding area equal in height to one line. 
IDifferent browsers define this standard style differently. IE PC places 
Gsome space above and below the text, Moz places it all below. You can 
&override this space with a rule like:

.p { margin:0; padding:0; margin-bottom:1em; }

FFor your example, I would recommend something along the lines of the 
following:

G<div class="f"> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /> 

bar</div>
H<div class="f" > <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /> 

bar</div>

And in your CSS:

.f { margin-bottom:1em; }

%Or whatever presentation you desire.

HTH,

Ben

H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

GOn Tuesday, Apr 29, 2003, at 16:06 Europe/London, Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
J> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
H> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not 
> to use tables for layout.
F> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by 
> line fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
>
G> (Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
<> control the space between options, style the option text,
I> and if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
> the form inputs.
>
*> Thanks for any insight you may provide.
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
#	See http://aftnn.org/ for details
�13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [216]
=================
+From: justin at get-put.com (justin braem)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:29:50 -0500
Subject: [css-d] align-bottom
?Message-ID: <6AAAFCBE-7A57-11D7-B8A8-000393C28C30@get-put.com>

?I'm new here, so my apologies if this has been covered before.

AIs there any way to align a div to the bottom of a page without 
8resorting to finding the window height with javascript?
�13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.776 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [217]
=================
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:18:02 -0700
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
CMessage-ID: <OFFD126CEE.4F42D79A-ON88256D17.00570F2F@capgroup.com>


Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
I> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
J> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not to
> use tables for layout.
J> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by line
> fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

KWelcome to the world of CSS, Gerard! It sounds like you are also beginning
8to get into the world of structural (or semantic) HTML.

FBasically, each tag represents some type of information. <p> tags are
Ddesigned to represent paragraphs. Most browsers place space between
Kparagraphs to identify where it begins or ends. Some browsers put one full
Jline space between paragraphs, others place half a space. Either of these
$can be overridden with CSS, though.

J<div> and <span> tags are generic containers used to enclose content that
Ghas some common purpose. <div> tags are intended to represent discrete
Lblocks of information, while <span> tags are intended to represent specific
Linformation inside of a block. (More accurately, <div> tags are block-level
Gcontainers that typically create carriage returns, and <span> tags are
inline containers.)

JIn most circumstances, you would want to wrap information that belongs in
%its own block in <div> tags, so that

F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
<div></div>
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

becomes

8<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo"
/><span>bar</span></div>
8<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo"
/><span>bar</span></div>

KThis tells the browser that the label "bar" belongs with the checkbox as a
Jsingle unit. You can then apply CSS styles to the divs, to properly space
the blocks apart.

F<div> tags can also contain other block-level tags like <p> and other
F<div>s, but paragraphs can only contain non-block-level elements like
K<span>, <em>, etc. (If you consider <p> tags as representing paragraphs it
Jmakes some sense -- you might emphasize some text in a paragraph, but you
Ftypically wouldn't place a paragraph inside of another paragraph, for

example.)

IAnother enhancement you might consider is replacing the <span> tags with
J<label> tags. Inside forms, <label> tags permit you to add semantic value
Ito this text. You can associate labels with inputs, so that clicking the
Glabel highlights the input as well. As an example, you can rewrite the
above checkboxes as follows:

G<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" id="optionFoo" value="foo"
+/><label for="optionFoo">foo</label></div>
G<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" id="optionBar" value="bar"
+/><label for="optionBar">bar</label></div>

JAs long as the "for" attribute in the label matches the "id" attribute in
Jthe input, you can click the text and it will check/uncheck the checkbox.
HYou can style the label tag in the same way as you would've intended to
Kstyle the span tag. Also, the <label> tag more semantically represents the
purpose of this text.

EFor more information, check out the "Forms" section of the HTML 4.01
specification:

/http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html

JThis spec can also be useful (albeit a bit daunting at first) for finding
<out how W3C intended HTML to be put together in a document.

HTH,

MikeL
�13:43:45.780 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [218]
=================
,From: scotts at rci-nv.com (Scott Schrantz)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:20:50 -0700
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
=Message-ID: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EE3B@SERVER1>

> -----Original Message-----
/> From: Gerard Samuel [mailto:gsam@trini0.org]
> 
'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
> 
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
@> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to 
(> use these to gain a "special" effect.

JOne of the first things to learn when using CSS is not to choose elements
Jbased on what their default presentation is, but rather on what structure
Jthey give to the page. You then use CSS to give them the presentation you
want.

K<p> denotes a paragraph. Use it when you are marking up a single paragraph
Jof text. It is a block element, meaning that there is a line break before
Land after it. It doesn't "create 2 line breaks", it has margins that create
Mwhite space between it and other elements. That white space can be done away
with using CSS.

p {margin: 0px;}

J<div> is a container, used for grouping elements. You use it when several
Lparagraphs need to have the same style or be separated from the rest of the
Fpage somehow. It is also a block element, but its margins are zero by
	default.

K<span> is also a container, but it is an inline container. As you noticed,
Lit doesn't come with any line break or margins. You use it when you need to
Lisolate a few words or a passage in the middle of a paragraph and give them
a particular style.

KThe true way to use CSS is to start by using basic HTML properly, and then
Ladd the CSS to make it look the way you want. Don't choose HTML elemnts for
3their "special effects". Add the effects with CSS.

--
Scott Schrantz
www.computer-vet.com/weblog/
scotts@computer-vet.com
AFrom grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de  Tue Apr 29 17:27:50 2003
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:27:50 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OReferences: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBB4@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>
4Message-ID: <00b001c30e6c$4a62c670$d201a8c0@jenspc>

Hi,

Aaccording to Apple the new Safari-Browser may be your Netscape5.
GOn http://developer.apple.com/internet/safari_faq.html#2 you can read:

<cite>
(The entire Safari user-agent string is:
LMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/XX (KHTML, like
Gecko) Safari/YY

K...where XX is the version of Apple's web technology used by Safari and YY
*is the version of the Safari application.
JAnd remember, since the rendering engine used by Safari behaves most like
HNetscape, the Safari JavaScript engine will report navigator.appName as
,"Netscape". Other Navigator values include:

G      navigator.appCodeName = "Mozilla" navigator.appName = "Netscape"
A      navigator.appVersion = "5.0" navigator.platform = "MacPPC"
D      navigator.product = "Gecko" navigator.productSub = "20030107"
0      navigator.vendor = "Apple Computer, Inc."

</cite>

HTH,

Jens
�13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [219]
=================
)From: gsam at trini0.org (Gerard Samuel)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:55:01 -0400
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
+In-Reply-To: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
*References: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
*Message-ID: <3EAEBC75.7010602@trini0.org>

IThanks to all those who replied.  It has become a little clearer for me.
HI felt that what I was trying to do was cheat the system, and I didn't 
want to develop bad
habits from the start.
HNow I think I understand why Eric Meyer requested to pull all <br> and 
&nbsp; tags out of
Fyour html document when converting to CSS in the book "Eric Meyer on 
)CSS" (excellent resource so far for me).
1So back to work for me, till my next question :)

Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
J> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
H> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not 
> to use tables for layout.
F> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by 
> line fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
>
G> (Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
<> control the space between options, style the option text,
I> and if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
> the form inputs.
>
*> Thanks for any insight you may provide.
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>
�13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [220]
=================
.From: weston at canncentral.org (Weston Cann)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:37:27 -0600
KSubject: [css-d] Trying to hide styles from different browsers (IE Win, IE
	Mac, everything else)
CMessage-ID: <A0B8F58A-7A71-11D7-94CC-0050E4F9FA12@canncentral.org>

II've got a layout with some absolutely positioned elements that seem to 
Jdisplay a few pixels off from browser to browser. After some reflection, 
HI've decided to try and feed different sets of values to three general 
kinds of browsers:

(1) MS IE Win
(2) MS IE Mac
1(3) Any other child-selector recognizing browser

@The scheme I've been trying to use to accomplish this has been:

F(1) Feed the IE Win value straight out in the style sheet ( example: 
.#tlmenu { position: absolute; top: 118px; } )
G(2) Feed the IE Mac value using a child selector expression, which is 
Jtherefore hidden from IE Win (example: #centring>#tlmenu { top: 119px } )
J(3) Use the \ comment hack and another child selector expression to feed 
Ianother value to all other child-selector reading browsers (example: /* 
.hack \ */ #centring>#tlmenu { top: 120px; } )

JThe problem is: the Gecko-based browser I'm using (Chimera/Navigator .6) 
Hseems to be oblivious to everything I put in #3. Am I going about this 
Jin a fundamentally wrong way, or is there just a detail I'm missing? Are 
there other, better schemes?

&(If you want the full context, go to 
Ihttp://weston.canncentral.org/misc/XVoyager/about.html ... it's got the 
XHTML and style sheets)

Thanks,

	Weston

~ == ~
http://weston.canncentral.org/
FMaybe the reason the invisible hand is invisible is because it isn't 
there.
�13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [221]
=================
1From: css.rules at ntlworld.com (Standards R'Us)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:53:08 +0100
"Subject: [css-d] IE 5 Margin Woes
�Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAr8lY0hVSt0GwCUriyH46gcKDAAAQAAAAUrRwFaryNk+fCMqWmDO7KAEAAAAA@ntlworld.com>

5Hi all - newbie to the list - hope you all are well,

GNow to the matters in hand, can anyone help/advise me on the following
point.

9Firstly the CSS validates and the XHTML does as strict. 

EBut....IE 5 seems to ignore the margin for the nav.a and nav.a:hover
7declaration set on my css in regards to the CSS below;

.nav{
*background-image:url('../img/navbg.jpg');
background-repeat:no-repeat;
border-left:1px solid #CCCCCC;
 border-right:1px solid #CCCCCC;
border-top:medium none;
margin:0px;
padding:0px;
width:780px
}
.nav a{
color:#000000;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;
font-size:12px;
font-weight:normal;
line-height:52px;
margin-left:14px;    /ignores
margin-right:14px;  /ignores
padding:0px;
text-decoration:none;
text-transform:capitalize;
}
.nav a:hover{
color:#FF0000;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;
font-size:12px;
line-height:52px;
margin-left:14px;    /ignores
margin-right:14px;  /ignores
text-decoration:none;
text-transform:capitalize;
}

Any suggestions?

TIA

Jeremy

�13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
�13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
U13:43:45.781 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [222]
=================
'From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:59:56 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
EReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
3Message-ID: <p05210607bad4798b4575@[152.3.174.98]>

,At 9:09 AM -0300 4/28/03, Joel Young wrote:
>===============
>Scenario 1:
B>Assume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}
>
@>This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
$>of the browser's default. Yes? No?

GThis is a non-flame-war aspect to this problem, so I'll answer.  Yes, 
Gyour reading is correct on this point and all the points that follow, 
Bwith one caveat: be clear that "browser's default" refers to the 
Dperson doing the browsing, not the piece of software.  As has been 
Bthoroughly discussed, the individual may have changed his or her 
Dsettings, so what they see may not be the same as what the browser 
@ships configured to display.  So long as you are aware of that 
<possibility, you have calculated resulting sizes correctly.

EYou have to decide for yourself if it is more important to cater to 
Fthe cognoscenti or the clueless.  Just be aware that whichever group 
Fyou pick, the other group will see something different when it comes 
Fto font size.  Also, it is pretty much universally acknowledged that 
)the clueless is by far the larger group.

<opinion type="strongly held">
=My own view is that it is better to be concerned more about 
Eaccessibility and less about aesthetics.  Text that is slightly too 
Bsmall is less easily accommodated than text that is slightly too 
Clarge.  In addition, my experience is that more users back out of 
Dsites with text they find too small than sites with text they find 
Ctoo large.  This is the primary - and contrary to popular belief, 
Dcarefully-considered - reason that browser makers have chosen font 
Bsize defaults rather on the large side.  Take care in overriding 
their judgment.

DIn any case, be extremely sure of your choice if making non-header 
Afont sizes greater than 150% or less than 75-80% of the default 
G*anywhere* on a site.  Sizes outside that range are virtually assured 
Fof irritating some of your users.  (That is, constructions like your 
@third example, which made the inner text 72% of the "browser's 
(default", should generally be avoided.)
</opinion>

-- 

-Adam Kuehn

_13:43:45.840 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [389462] bytes
�13:43:45.840 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Thu Apr 24 16:07:26 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker

7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 16:40:48 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:40:48 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] List with mixed styles
:In-Reply-To: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
9References: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
/Message-ID: <3EA80580.3070503@cookiecrook.com>


K> What you want to do is create a div for the sub-items and add styles for
7> that specific div to your CSS. (Hat tip: Eric Meyer)
> 
> So, for example:
> <div id="menu">
> ITEM ONE
> <div class="subitems">
> Sub-item 1
> Sub-item 2
	> </div>
	> </div>

;The nesting idea is correct, but keep it a list, not divs.

<ul class="menu">
   <li>Item 1

     <ul>
       <li>Sub-item 1</li>
       <li>Sub-item 2</li>
     </ul>
	   </li>
   <li>Item 2</li>
   <li>Item 3</li>
</ul>

"ul.menu { /* top menu styles */ }
*ul.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
(ul.menu li ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
0ul.menu li ul li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

1Or, you could save a few bytes on the selectors.

 .menu { /* top menu styles */ }
(.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
#.menu ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
+.menu li li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

Good luck,
James Craig


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/

5From BradyG at BIDWELL.com  Thu Apr 24 16:49:36 2003
-From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
;for one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not ]
V13:43:45.840 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
Y13:43:45.841 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [4610]
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Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [22619]
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Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [24935]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [25600]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [27077]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [28048]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [31103]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [32322]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33207]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33881]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [36426]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [38906]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [39611]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40362]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40854]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [42307]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [44381]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [45120]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [46626]
Z13:43:45.842 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [47299]
Z13:43:45.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [48023]
Z13:43:45.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [49141]
Z13:43:45.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [50265]
Z13:43:45.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [53644]
Z13:43:45.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [54261]
Z13:43:45.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [55133]
Z13:43:45.843 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [56603]
Z13:43:45.845 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [57466]
Z13:43:45.845 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [58820]
Z13:43:45.845 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [60995]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [62757]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [63497]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [65951]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [66697]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [67645]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [68938]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [70058]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [71395]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [73633]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [76326]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [77209]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [78431]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [82607]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [83312]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [85154]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [86345]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [88347]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [89056]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [91025]
Z13:43:45.846 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [92518]
Z13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [94760]
Z13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [95686]
Z13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [97016]
Z13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [98916]
[13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [100703]
[13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [101981]
[13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [104651]
[13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [105522]
[13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [108140]
[13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [109030]
[13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [110577]
[13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [111713]
[13:43:45.847 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [112218]
[13:43:45.851 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [115007]
[13:43:45.851 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [117166]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [120070]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [121361]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [122997]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [123856]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [125795]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [128549]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129484]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129922]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [131612]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [132516]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [133642]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [134621]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [137652]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [138236]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [142465]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [143647]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [144733]
[13:43:45.852 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [145232]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [149409]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [151060]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153155]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153674]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [154221]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [155386]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [156187]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [158083]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [160013]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [162156]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [163096]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [165147]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [166475]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [167195]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [168631]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [170067]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [171200]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [172161]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [173044]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [175327]
[13:43:45.853 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [176650]
[13:43:45.854 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [182034]
[13:43:45.854 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [184318]
[13:43:45.854 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [185360]
[13:43:45.854 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [188868]
[13:43:45.854 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [189349]
[13:43:45.854 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [191813]
[13:43:45.854 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [192592]
[13:43:45.854 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [196228]
[13:43:45.855 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [201718]
[13:43:45.855 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [202888]
[13:43:45.855 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [205824]
[13:43:45.855 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [206835]
[13:43:45.855 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [209112]
[13:43:45.855 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [213575]
[13:43:45.856 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [214632]
[13:43:45.856 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [217173]
[13:43:45.856 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [218712]
[13:43:45.856 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [222713]
[13:43:45.857 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [225406]
[13:43:45.861 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [238231]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [240183]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [241335]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [242213]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [243658]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [247376]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [250226]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [251222]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [252782]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [253582]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [255113]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [257141]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [258729]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [260173]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [263021]
[13:43:45.862 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [266112]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [267943]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [268773]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [269368]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [270287]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [271965]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [272918]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [274357]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [275702]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [276626]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [278211]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [279791]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [280557]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281248]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281892]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [284485]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [285508]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [287192]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [289194]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290229]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290940]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [291497]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292008]
[13:43:45.863 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292955]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [295681]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [296401]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [297412]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [299878]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [302741]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [304075]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [305062]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [306733]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [307416]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [310045]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [311566]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [312707]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [314900]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [316029]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [318083]
[13:43:45.864 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [321443]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [323696]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [324549]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [325233]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [326418]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [328215]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [329589]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [331924]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [333708]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [334941]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [335517]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [337115]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [339999]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [344275]
[13:43:45.865 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [345199]
[13:43:45.869 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [348883]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [349908]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [354329]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [355908]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359330]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359935]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [361358]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [363720]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364142]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364749]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [366632]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [367896]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [368358]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [369601]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [370475]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [371432]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374211]
[13:43:45.870 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374625]
[13:43:45.871 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [378695]
[13:43:45.871 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [381979]
[13:43:45.871 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [384057]
[13:43:45.871 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [385721]
[13:43:45.871 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [387022]
_13:43:45.876 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [389462] bytes
�13:43:45.876 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Thu Apr 24 16:07:26 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker

7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 16:40:48 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:40:48 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] List with mixed styles
:In-Reply-To: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
9References: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
/Message-ID: <3EA80580.3070503@cookiecrook.com>


K> What you want to do is create a div for the sub-items and add styles for
7> that specific div to your CSS. (Hat tip: Eric Meyer)
> 
> So, for example:
> <div id="menu">
> ITEM ONE
> <div class="subitems">
> Sub-item 1
> Sub-item 2
	> </div>
	> </div>

;The nesting idea is correct, but keep it a list, not divs.

<ul class="menu">
   <li>Item 1

     <ul>
       <li>Sub-item 1</li>
       <li>Sub-item 2</li>
     </ul>
	   </li>
   <li>Item 2</li>
   <li>Item 3</li>
</ul>

"ul.menu { /* top menu styles */ }
*ul.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
(ul.menu li ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
0ul.menu li ul li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

1Or, you could save a few bytes on the selectors.

 .menu { /* top menu styles */ }
(.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
#.menu ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
+.menu li li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

Good luck,
James Craig


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/

5From BradyG at BIDWELL.com  Thu Apr 24 16:49:36 2003
-From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
;for one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not ]
V13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
X13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [416]
Y13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [1536]
Y13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [2506]
Y13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [3831]
Y13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [4612]
Y13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [5849]
Y13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [6521]
Y13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [9477]
Z13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11044]
Z13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11696]
Z13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [13792]
Z13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14324]
Z13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14815]
Z13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [16057]
Z13:43:45.877 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [17187]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [19032]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [20061]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [21312]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [22621]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [23779]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [24937]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [25602]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [27079]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [28050]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [29259]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [30444]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [31105]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [32324]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33209]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33883]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [35287]
Z13:43:45.878 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [36428]
Z13:43:45.879 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [38287]
Z13:43:45.882 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [38908]
Z13:43:45.882 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [39613]
Z13:43:45.882 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40364]
Z13:43:45.882 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40856]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [42309]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [44383]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [45122]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [46628]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [47301]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [48025]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [48530]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [49143]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [50267]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [51651]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [53646]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [54263]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [55135]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [56605]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [57468]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [58822]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [60997]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [62759]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [63499]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [64865]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [65953]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [66699]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [67647]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [68940]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [70060]
Z13:43:45.883 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [71397]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [73635]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [75670]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [76328]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [77211]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [78433]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [79774]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [81330]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [82609]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [83314]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [83994]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [85156]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [86347]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [88349]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [89058]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [91027]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [91604]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [91984]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [92520]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [92922]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [94762]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [95688]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [97018]
Z13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [98918]
[13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [100705]
[13:43:45.884 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [101983]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [104653]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [105524]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [106538]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [108142]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [109032]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [110077]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [110579]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [111715]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [112220]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [112963]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [113338]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [115009]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [116169]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [117168]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [117996]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [119104]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [120072]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [120662]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [121363]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [122367]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [122999]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [123858]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [125003]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [125797]
[13:43:45.885 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [127466]
[13:43:45.888 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [128551]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129486]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129924]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [131614]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [132518]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [133644]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [134623]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [136155]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [137654]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [138238]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [141732]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [142467]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [142846]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [143649]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [144735]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [145234]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [148520]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [149411]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [151062]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [152074]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153157]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153676]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [154223]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [155388]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [156189]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [157486]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [158085]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [160015]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [162158]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [163098]
[13:43:45.889 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [165149]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [166477]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [167197]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [168633]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [170069]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [171202]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [172163]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [173046]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [173976]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [175329]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [176652]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [178490]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [179602]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [182036]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [184320]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [185362]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [187056]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [188870]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [189351]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [191815]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [192594]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [195412]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [196230]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [201720]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [202890]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [204512]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [205826]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [206837]
[13:43:45.890 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [209114]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [213577]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [214634]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [217175]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [218714]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [222715]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [225408]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [238233]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [239283]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [240185]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [241337]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [242215]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [243660]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [244755]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [247378]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [250228]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [251224]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [252784]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [253584]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [255115]
[13:43:45.891 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [255852]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [257143]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [258731]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [260175]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [263023]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [266114]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [267945]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [268775]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [269370]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [270289]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [271967]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [272920]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [274359]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [275704]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [276628]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [278213]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [279793]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [280559]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281250]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281894]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [284487]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [285510]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [287194]
[13:43:45.892 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [288260]
[13:43:45.939 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [289196]
[13:43:45.939 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290231]
[13:43:45.939 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290942]
[13:43:45.939 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [291499]
[13:43:45.939 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292010]
[13:43:45.939 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292957]
[13:43:45.941 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [295683]
[13:43:45.941 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [296403]
[13:43:45.941 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [297414]
[13:43:45.941 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [299880]
[13:43:45.941 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [300782]
[13:43:45.941 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [302743]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [304077]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [305064]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [305860]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [306735]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [307418]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [308709]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [309348]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [310047]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [310443]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [311568]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [312709]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [314902]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [316031]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [318085]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [318735]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [320195]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [321445]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [322641]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [323698]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [324551]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [325235]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [325740]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [326420]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [327155]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [328217]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [329591]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [330541]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [331926]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [333710]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [334943]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [335519]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [337117]
[13:43:45.942 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [340001]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [344277]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [345201]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [347598]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [348885]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [349910]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [350542]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [352978]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [354331]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [355910]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [356953]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [358174]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359332]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359937]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [361360]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [363722]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364144]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364751]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [365772]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [366634]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [367898]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [368360]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [369603]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [370477]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [371434]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374213]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374627]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [378697]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [380783]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [381981]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [384059]
[13:43:45.943 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [385723]
[13:43:45.944 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [387024]
_13:43:45.946 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [389462] bytes
�13:43:45.946 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Thu Apr 24 16:07:26 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker

7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 16:40:48 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:40:48 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] List with mixed styles
:In-Reply-To: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
9References: <000301c30a10$89862410$070010ac@development>
/Message-ID: <3EA80580.3070503@cookiecrook.com>


K> What you want to do is create a div for the sub-items and add styles for
7> that specific div to your CSS. (Hat tip: Eric Meyer)
> 
> So, for example:
> <div id="menu">
> ITEM ONE
> <div class="subitems">
> Sub-item 1
> Sub-item 2
	> </div>
	> </div>

;The nesting idea is correct, but keep it a list, not divs.

<ul class="menu">
   <li>Item 1

     <ul>
       <li>Sub-item 1</li>
       <li>Sub-item 2</li>
     </ul>
	   </li>
   <li>Item 2</li>
   <li>Item 3</li>
</ul>

"ul.menu { /* top menu styles */ }
*ul.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
(ul.menu li ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
0ul.menu li ul li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

1Or, you could save a few bytes on the selectors.

 .menu { /* top menu styles */ }
(.menu li { /* top menu item styles */ }
#.menu ul { /* sub-menu styles */ }
+.menu li li { /* sub-menu item styles */ }

Good luck,
James Craig


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/

5From BradyG at BIDWELL.com  Thu Apr 24 16:49:36 2003
-From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
;for one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not ]
V13:43:45.946 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
Y13:43:45.946 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [4610]
Y13:43:45.946 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [5847]
Z13:43:45.947 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11042]
Z13:43:45.947 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [11694]
Z13:43:45.947 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14322]
Z13:43:45.947 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [14813]
Z13:43:45.947 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [17185]
Z13:43:45.948 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [22619]
Z13:43:45.948 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [23777]
Z13:43:45.948 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [24935]
Z13:43:45.948 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [25600]
Z13:43:45.948 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [27077]
Z13:43:45.948 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [28048]
Z13:43:45.948 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [31103]
Z13:43:45.948 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [32322]
Z13:43:45.953 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33207]
Z13:43:45.953 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [33881]
Z13:43:45.953 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [36426]
Z13:43:45.953 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [38906]
Z13:43:45.953 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [39611]
Z13:43:45.953 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40362]
Z13:43:45.954 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [40854]
Z13:43:45.954 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [42307]
Z13:43:45.954 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [44381]
Z13:43:45.954 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [45120]
Z13:43:45.954 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [46626]
Z13:43:45.954 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [47299]
Z13:43:45.954 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [48023]
Z13:43:45.954 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [49141]
Z13:43:45.954 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [50265]
Z13:43:45.955 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [53644]
Z13:43:45.955 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [54261]
Z13:43:45.955 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [55133]
Z13:43:45.955 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [56603]
Z13:43:45.955 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [57466]
Z13:43:45.955 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [58820]
Z13:43:45.955 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [60995]
Z13:43:45.955 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [62757]
Z13:43:45.955 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [63497]
Z13:43:45.956 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [65951]
Z13:43:45.956 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [66697]
Z13:43:45.956 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [67645]
Z13:43:45.956 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [68938]
Z13:43:45.956 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [70058]
Z13:43:45.956 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [71395]
Z13:43:45.956 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [73633]
Z13:43:45.956 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [76326]
Z13:43:45.957 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [77209]
Z13:43:45.957 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [78431]
Z13:43:45.957 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [82607]
Z13:43:45.957 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [83312]
Z13:43:45.957 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [85154]
Z13:43:45.957 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [86345]
Z13:43:45.957 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [88347]
Z13:43:45.957 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [89056]
Z13:43:45.958 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [91025]
Z13:43:45.958 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [92518]
Z13:43:45.958 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [94760]
Z13:43:45.958 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [95686]
Z13:43:45.958 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [97016]
Z13:43:45.958 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [98916]
[13:43:45.958 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [100703]
[13:43:45.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [101981]
[13:43:45.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [104651]
[13:43:45.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [105522]
[13:43:45.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [108140]
[13:43:45.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [109030]
[13:43:45.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [110577]
[13:43:45.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [111713]
[13:43:45.959 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [112218]
[13:43:45.960 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [115007]
[13:43:45.960 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [117166]
[13:43:45.960 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [120070]
[13:43:45.960 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [121361]
[13:43:45.960 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [122997]
[13:43:45.960 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [123856]
[13:43:45.961 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [125795]
[13:43:45.961 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [128549]
[13:43:45.961 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129484]
[13:43:45.961 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [129922]
[13:43:45.961 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [131612]
[13:43:45.961 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [132516]
[13:43:45.961 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [133642]
[13:43:45.961 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [134621]
[13:43:45.962 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [137652]
[13:43:45.962 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [138236]
[13:43:45.962 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [142465]
[13:43:45.962 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [143647]
[13:43:45.962 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [144733]
[13:43:45.962 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [145232]
[13:43:45.962 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [149409]
[13:43:45.963 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [151060]
[13:43:45.963 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153155]
[13:43:45.963 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [153674]
[13:43:45.963 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [154221]
[13:43:45.963 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [155386]
[13:43:45.963 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [156187]
[13:43:45.963 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [158083]
[13:43:45.963 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [160013]
[13:43:45.963 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [162156]
[13:43:45.963 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [163096]
[13:43:45.963 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [165147]
[13:43:45.964 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [166475]
[13:43:45.964 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [167195]
[13:43:45.964 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [168631]
[13:43:45.964 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [170067]
[13:43:45.964 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [171200]
[13:43:45.964 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [172161]
[13:43:45.964 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [173044]
[13:43:45.964 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [175327]
[13:43:45.964 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [176650]
[13:43:45.965 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [182034]
[13:43:45.965 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [184318]
[13:43:45.965 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [185360]
[13:43:45.965 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [188868]
[13:43:45.965 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [189349]
[13:43:45.965 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [191813]
[13:43:45.965 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [192592]
[13:43:45.966 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [196228]
[13:43:45.966 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [201718]
[13:43:45.966 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [202888]
[13:43:45.967 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [205824]
[13:43:45.967 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [206835]
[13:43:45.967 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [209112]
[13:43:45.967 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [213575]
[13:43:45.967 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [214632]
[13:43:45.967 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [217173]
[13:43:45.968 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [218712]
[13:43:45.968 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [222713]
[13:43:45.968 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [225406]
[13:43:45.968 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [238231]
[13:43:45.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [240183]
[13:43:45.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [241335]
[13:43:45.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [242213]
[13:43:45.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [243658]
[13:43:45.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [247376]
[13:43:45.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [250226]
[13:43:45.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [251222]
[13:43:45.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [252782]
[13:43:45.969 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [253582]
[13:43:45.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [255113]
[13:43:45.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [257141]
[13:43:45.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [258729]
[13:43:45.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [260173]
[13:43:45.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [263021]
[13:43:45.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [266112]
[13:43:45.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [267943]
[13:43:45.970 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [268773]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [269368]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [270287]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [271965]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [272918]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [274357]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [275702]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [276626]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [278211]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [279791]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [280557]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281248]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [281892]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [284485]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [285508]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [287192]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [289194]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290229]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [290940]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [291497]
[13:43:45.971 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292008]
[13:43:45.972 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [292955]
[13:43:45.972 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [295681]
[13:43:45.972 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [296401]
[13:43:45.972 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [297412]
[13:43:45.972 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [299878]
[13:43:45.972 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [302741]
[13:43:45.973 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [304075]
[13:43:45.973 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [305062]
[13:43:45.973 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [306733]
[13:43:45.973 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [307416]
[13:43:45.973 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [310045]
[13:43:45.973 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [311566]
[13:43:45.973 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [312707]
[13:43:45.974 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [314900]
[13:43:45.974 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [316029]
[13:43:45.974 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [318083]
[13:43:45.974 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [321443]
[13:43:45.974 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [323696]
[13:43:45.974 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [324549]
[13:43:45.974 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [325233]
[13:43:45.975 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [326418]
[13:43:45.975 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [328215]
[13:43:45.975 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [329589]
[13:43:45.975 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [331924]
[13:43:45.975 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [333708]
[13:43:45.975 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [334941]
[13:43:45.975 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [335517]
[13:43:45.975 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [337115]
[13:43:45.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [339999]
[13:43:45.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [344275]
[13:43:45.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [345199]
[13:43:45.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [348883]
[13:43:45.976 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [349908]
[13:43:45.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [354329]
[13:43:45.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [355908]
[13:43:45.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359330]
[13:43:45.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [359935]
[13:43:45.977 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [361358]
[13:43:45.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [363720]
[13:43:45.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364142]
[13:43:45.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [364749]
[13:43:45.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [366632]
[13:43:45.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [367896]
[13:43:45.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [368358]
[13:43:45.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [369601]
[13:43:45.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [370475]
[13:43:45.978 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [371432]
[13:43:45.979 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374211]
[13:43:45.979 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [374625]
[13:43:45.979 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [378695]
[13:43:45.979 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [381979]
[13:43:45.979 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [384057]
[13:43:45.980 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [385721]
[13:43:45.980 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [387022]
�13:43:45.980 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:07:26 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741D8@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

MMy apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of a
>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.

	Thanks -

george
4From bob.jones at usg.edu  Thu Apr 24 16:08:04 2003
'From: bob.jones at usg.edu (Bob Jones)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:08:04 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
DIn-Reply-To: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
-Message-ID: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>

MOn Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
# 
J# In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
L# relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
J# the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
K# changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
J# flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
:# page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.

FI was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my 
Ilayout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So, 
Junless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do, 
"I'll have to abandon these plans.

Thanks,
Bob
2From dm87 at rogers.com  Thu Apr 24 16:10:22 2003
%From: dm87 at rogers.com (Donna m87)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:10:22 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
In-Reply-To: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
References: 
L <20030424091653.UBGQ4571.fep02-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com@acornpar
 enting.org>
5Message-ID: <a05210600bacdaceb5f45@[24.112.182.129]>

BWith tables I could place headers and footers above an below the 
Econtent, the footer would automatically move down the page when the 
content volume increased.

GI have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
Eheader, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
is overwritten.

CHow can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
Cvolume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?

FWhat sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

thanks
Donna
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:27:28 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:27:28 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Steve Thomas wrote:
+> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>=20
D>     <link rel=3D"stylesheet" href=3D"site.css" type=3D"text/css">

IThe only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
Gso /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
-stuff. But as you point out, it does work...
=20
F> 2. Begin that style sheet with an @import to import the stuff which
> fouls up NN4 etc.=20

GYup. Just be careful, because as you know, rules in the main file will
%override those in the imported file.

F> One interesting aside: the @page rule only makes sense for print (I

FEssentially, yes, but @page can also be used (in theory) for anything
Gdetermined to be a paged media (i.e., one that isn't continuous like a
Dscreen). Paged media types include: emboss, handheld (which is also
Icontinuous), print, screen, and also tv (which, like handheld, is both).

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
9From jon at jackinthebox.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 16:28:57 2003
9From: jon at jackinthebox.co.uk (jon@jackinthebox.co.uk)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:28:57 +0100
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BMessage-ID: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>

Michael Abramovich wrote:
> Hello css-d,
>
>> is it possible to use css to make checkboxes smaller sized?
>

	Michael,

KYes its possible to do this, just set a CSS rule with the width and height
2set and apply it to the radio button or checkbox.

;I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:

0http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html

LExplorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a
Bfew problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

Hope this helps.

Jon Tucker]
l13:43:45.981 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.981 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: BradyG at BIDWELL.com (Brady Gearring)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 08:49:36 -0700
*Subject: [css-d] OT - JavaScript Listserv
PMessage-ID: <353FE091A7E3D311BAD900508B6BF80202D409B8@bidwell-mail.bidwell.com>

*this is not a list serv, but it is a good
,message board with alot of activity and you
/might be able to find the help you are looking
6for: http://www.aspmessageboard.com/forum/jscript.asp

HTH

bg
http://www.2solardays.com


>-----Original Message-----
L>My apologies for the off-topic post, but I was wondering if anyone knew of
a
?>JavaScript listserv, where I might be able to ask a question.


>Thanks -

>george
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 16:50:53 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
+> On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
I>> For example, three-column layouts are almost useless on narrow-screen
>> devices
>=20
@> A three column layout will render the same on a narrow screen
<> device as it does on a 1600x1200 screen like mine, if the

HYes, if the handheld supported CSS-P, but even then, it would likely be
Hhard to read as most PDAs have a screen width of about 160 pixels. That
Dmeans about 53 pixels per column, or a lot of horizontal scrolling.

C> Of course this is where Media Queries come in, not that they are
> widely support yet:=20
>=20
->    http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-mediaqueries/

	Exactly.

=> Why? What about when we come along and invent a new media,
>> say, "overhead-display"? About the only media types you are

EThen you go back and update your style sheet. Nothing lasts forever.
GBesides, until a media type is defined by a CSS specification we don't
have to worry about it!=20

!> I don't really understand why.
>=20
7> When the stylesheet is _specifically_ designed for a
@> particular media (e.g. font sizes given in absolute units for
@> printing), then it makes sense to specify the media type. But
!> otherwise, it seems unwise.=20

FI that's the heart of the matter there, and it's also where you and I
Fdisagree. There are way to many situations when doing something great
Ifor one medium (@page { size: ... }, pixel units) is not recommended for
Iothers (@page is useless for continuous media, pixels can't be used with
tty).

>@media was designed specifically for the purpose of declaring
Emedia-specific rules in a style sheet targetting more than one media
F(e.g., "all"). Why wouldn't you use it for that purpose? (OK, there's
poor support, but...)

=> Since your "ideal" set includes "handheld", and almost all
F> new devices fall into this category, you're not really avoiding the
> problem! :-)=20

DI only recommended using handheld if the /only/ styles declared are
Hthings like font and color. Handhelds have abysmal positioning support,
Hworse than WebTV (see below). If, however, you wanted to declare screen
6and handheld together, @media is the perfect tool.=20

=> Web of real CSS content to deal with. New devices are more
>> likely to be better at CSS since they have to work with new
=> Web content. And if the UA is compliant, then pages should

 Yes, but they aren't compliant:
("CSS2 Support in PDA/Handheld Browsers"
H<http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/handheldbrowsercsssupport.html>

@Thanks for making me think through all these media issues, Ian.

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
:From bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Apr 24 17:10:06 2003
0From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:10:06 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] smaller checkboxes
7References: <1824277687.20030423143018@balance.com.au>
P	<3EA71397.3080403@cookiecrook.com> <00be01c309ff$25f59db0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304231944540.19929-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
8Message-ID: <000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

----- Original Message -----
#From: "Ian Hickson" <ian@hixie.ch>
J<<Unfortunately that won't work in any standard-compliant UA, because the
KWingdings font doesn't have a UNICODE encoding, and so compliant UAs won't
Fuse it to render characters (since the font claims to not support any
EUNICODE characters, and the HTML and CSS specs say that the document
character set is UNICODE).

KTo make it work in any compliant UA, use the UNICODE checkmark characters,
Ge.g. U+2610 and U+2611 (entities &#x2610; and &#x2611;, which, if your
@e-mail client is working right, look like â and â).>>
&- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

KWell, happily in respect to font substitution, Mozilla, Netscape 6.1+, and
IE
&are not standards-compliant browsers.

CI have tried UNICODE solutions and they always end up causing more
Cproblems in more situations than the easier and more common method
Gof font substitution. At least in the Windows world, I see nothing but
.problems in implementing Unicode equivalents.

BDo you have a link to some example where checkboxes (or something
;similar) have been done using standards for glyph display?

Brett



]
l13:43:45.981 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.982 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:24:25 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
8Message-ID: <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

=| I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
2| http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html
L| Explorer renders these as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes
a
D| few problems with the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.


HI feel like I'm getting more for my browser money when I click on those

big ones!

Brett]
l13:43:45.982 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.982 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:25:06 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] z-index problems
.In-Reply-To: <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>
CReferences: <OF2AD0FB0C.796E1C35-ON88256D12.0051AEDF@capgroup.com>
" <20030424150804.GB18507@usg.edu>
3Message-ID: <p05210605bacdba15ac2a@[152.3.174.98]>

N>On Thu, Apr 24, 2003 at 07:57:14AM -0700, Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
>#
K># In both circumstances, change your position declaration in .lyrics from
M># relative to absolute. Relatively positioned content will take up space in
K># the content, regardless of its visibility. When its display property is
L># changed from "none" to "block", it simply reinserts the content into the
K># flow. Giving it absolute positioning ensures that it will appear on the
;># page without modifying the flow of surrounding content.
>
F>I was afraid you would say that.  Unfortunately, in order to keep my
I>layout fluid, absolutely positioning that content isn't an option.  So,
J>unless someone here has a neat trick to do what it is I'm wanting to do,
#>I'll have to abandon these plans.

FI haven't checked out this solution, so take it with a grain of salt:

GAbsolute positioning shouldn't affect the fluidity of your layout, if 
Cyou do it correctly.  If you absolutely position something, it is 
Dpositioned with respect to it's containing block.  That containing 
Cblock is defined to be the nearest ancestor with a position other 
Gthan "static".  Since "static" is also the default position for every 
Aelement, you would therefore need to position the element which 
Econtains the hidden/invisible content in question - in other words, 
Gposition the list item.  Try "relative" on the li, then "absolute" on 
=the paragraph and see if that does what you are looking for.

AIncidentally, to be a bit more semantically correct, you should 
Bactually make the invisible/hidden element a div , rather than a 
Gparagraph (positioned as explained).  Each verse could then be marked 
<up as a paragraph, with no additional positioning required.

-- 

-Adam Kuehn
3From steve at mrclay.org  Thu Apr 24 17:44:40 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:44:40 -0400
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
>In-Reply-To: <3CD82BA2-764B-11D7-9DBB-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
=References: <3CD82BA2-764B-11D7-9DBB-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
5Message-ID: <198361053093.20030424124440@mrclay.org>

:Thursday, April 24, 2003, 7:52:34 AM, Arlen Walker wrote:
AW> Margins also do *not* add;

2Vertically, but they don't collapse horizontally.

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org]
l13:43:45.982 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.982 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:43:50 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD2@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
7Message-ID: <004801c30a80$af81d900$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Saila, Craig :
>
B> Thanks for making me think through all these media issues, Ian.

DAnd it's been a good conversation to follow along with, it's got me

thinking.
--Josh
]
l13:43:45.982 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.983 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
>
> Steve Thomas wrote:
,>> 1. link to one single style sheet, as in
>>
?>>     <link rel="stylesheet" href="site.css" type="text/css">
>
K> The only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is "screen",
I> so /technically/ other media types would never see the embedded @media
	> stuff.

GThat's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has delegated
Gauthority over the "media" attribute to the CSS working group, who has
(decided to change the default to "all".

JUnfortunately I can't find a public reference to this decision. I'll look
	into it.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
3From steve at mrclay.org  Thu Apr 24 18:40:08 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:40:08 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
4Message-ID: <56364380796.20030424134008@mrclay.org>

1Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
CS> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
5S> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".

?This is a good way to stop using another purely presentational
Gelement.  You might also want to specify font-size:0; height:0 just to
<be sure the space within doesn't give you a 1em tall block.

DThere is a small catch in this display:block method, though: Inline
Gelements, such as A, are not supposed to contain blocks (as we've told
Espan to render), so, even though it's valid HTML/CSS, there could be
 unexpected behavior/rendering. 

Another technique would be:

span {
>   white-space:pre-line; /* gets rid of the space (CSS2.1) */
}
span:after {
4   content:"\A";         /* generated line-break */
}

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org]
l13:43:45.983 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.983 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:42:19 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] smaller checkboxes
9In-Reply-To: <000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
7References: <1824277687.20030423143018@balance.com.au>
$	<3EA71397.3080403@cookiecrook.com>
-	<00be01c309ff$25f59db0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304231944540.19929-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
-	<000d01c30a7b$f91e3ef0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241008150.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Brett Merkey wrote:
>
I> Well, happily in respect to font substitution, Mozilla, Netscape 6.1+,
/> and IE are not standards-compliant browsers.

@I believe recent Mozilla builds have been fixed in this regard.


E> I have tried UNICODE solutions and they always end up causing more
H> problems in more situations than the easier and more common method of
F> font substitution. At least in the Windows world, I see nothing but
0> problems in implementing Unicode equivalents.

JUnfortunately, we're not in a Windows world. Millions of people use other
operating systems.


D> Do you have a link to some example where checkboxes (or something
=> similar) have been done using standards for glyph display?

This works in Mozilla:

@   http://www.damowmow.com/playground/demos/checkboxes/001.html

KUnfortunately it doesn't work in WinIE6, due to its rather abysmal UNICODE
Jsupport. It is sad that the most popular UA is so bad at basic standards.
DIt was the same back in the days of Netscape 4... Maybe having poor
7support for the specs is the key to being popular? ;-)

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
AFrom Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com  Thu Apr 24 18:46:03 2003
7From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:46:03 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
?> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has
<> delegated authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS
A> working group, who has decided to change the default to "all".

-Well, that would make *a lot* more sense!=20

IThere does seems to be an inconsistency, given @import defaults to "all"
and this reference:
<<http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/present/styles.html#h-14.4.1>
Bimplies it should default to "all" and apparently the DTD doesn't
;specify any default media-type, so "all" would make sense.

9Ain't it great when even the "standards" are consistent!

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
/From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Apr 24 18:49:31 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 10:49:31 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
9In-Reply-To: <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
- <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>


=> I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
I> http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html Explorer renders these
I> as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a few problems with
2> the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.

KActually the reason Mozilla stops styling the checkboxes in strict mode is
Fthat the checkboxes have classes that do not match the classes in the
Kstylesheet. In quirks mode, Mozilla is ignoring the error and treating the
Iclasses as case insensitive, but in strict mode it does the right thing.

AIf you change the classes to lowercase throughout it works fine.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
<From contact at lukeredpath.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 19:08:38 2003
2From: contact at lukeredpath.co.uk (Luke Redpath)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:08:38 +0100
.Subject: [css-d] Cross-Browser Template Check
EMessage-ID: <ENEMIKFCPDMDJCEEJFPPOEKHCGAA.contact@lukeredpath.co.uk>

Hi,

<I'm working on a template for a redesign of a personal site
(www.sonicdeath.co.uk).

The template is here:

8http://testpad.sonicdeath.co.uk/sonicdeath_template.htm

/And a jpg of what it should look like is here:

8http://testpad.sonicdeath.co.uk/sonicdeath_template.jpg

ISo far it works in NS7, IE6, Opera 7, Moz 1.1/1.3 on Windows. It doesn't
Mwork in Opera 5 but that is fine with me because I would expect the majority
Dof Opera users (and we are talking about the majority of an extreme
Iminority) to have the latest version. I've not implemented any box model
Khacks yet either so I'm not bothered about what it looks like in IE 5.x at
this point in time.

HWhat I would like to know is what it looks like in any other browsers I
Ghaven't mentioned, particularly IE 5.2, Camino and Mozilla on the Mac.

MI need to tidy the code up a bit, but that said, it still validates as XHTML
'1.0 strict and the CSS also validates.

Cheers,

Luke Redpath
--
www.sonicdeath.co.uk/weblog
C"Celebrity Squares" - giving the web a CSS makeover - coming soon!
]
l13:43:45.983 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.984 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:10:50 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3References: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
%Message-ID: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>

>
>
E> Here's my tip: create a <span> with a single space in it, like so:
B> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
4> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".
K> Now, without a stylesheet, you'll get the full link on one line - with a
I> space in the middle - but, in the styled version, the span will go on 
> to a
H> new line, but not actually show anything as there's only white-space 
	> in it,
> so it collapses.
-> There you have it - a CSS-only line break.
>
Yow!
-I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.

AWhy is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't

<p>
123 Trogdor St.<br />
Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
</p>

better than
p.address {margin: 0;}
'<p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
2<p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

besos
Miriam

-- 
http://www.surebluestudios.com
]
l13:43:45.984 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.984 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:28:20 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3References: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com>
'Message-ID: <3EA82CC4.7030406@f2o.org>

>
E> Here's my tip: create a <span> with a single space in it, like so:
B> <a href="/">Professional and<span> </span>Trade Information</a>
4> ...and then style that span as "display: block;".
K> Now, without a stylesheet, you'll get the full link on one line - with a
I> space in the middle - but, in the styled version, the span will go on 
> to a
H> new line, but not actually show anything as there's only white-space 
	> in it,
?> so it collapses. There you have it - a CSS-only line break. 


Yow!
-I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.

AWhy is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't

<p>
123 Trogdor St.<br />
Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
</p>

better than
p.address {margin: 0;}
'<p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
2<p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

besos
Miriam

-- 
http://www.surebluestudios.com

]
l13:43:45.984 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.984 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:28:53 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
&In-Reply-To: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
'Message-ID: <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>

> <p>
> 123 Trogdor St.<br />
> Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
> </p>

.I suppose one could do similar with a list...
<ul>
<li>123 Trogdor St.</li>
<li>Strongbadia, Wherever</li>
</ul>

?but that's not really a list, is it, and is therefore just as 
&semantically meaningless as a <br />?
Hrrm.

besos
Miriam


--
 http://www.surebluestudios.com]
l13:43:45.984 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:30:47 -0400
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
7Message-ID: <005301c30a8f$a31f3b80$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

GIf this is something that everyone knows about, forgive me for somehow
missing it somewhere!

CFor those redirecting non-compliant browsers via sniff or the cute
G"ahem" class that's revealed when the stylesheet isn't loaded... Where
Bare you going to send your non-compliant users now?  If anywhere?

C>From the page I always point to: http://webstandards.org/upgrade/

H"Note to site builders: The WaSP Browser Upgrade Campaign has come to a
Dclose. As such we ask that you discontinue your use of this upgrade
Hmessage and visit the Beyond the Browser Upgrade Campaign page to learn
about what to do instead."

:(

@This isn't old news is it? (I'll be really red-faced if it is).

ISo is there still a need to re-direct your non-compliant visitors, or do
Fyou agree with the sentiments about it just being an easy out for not
=testing our pages for some browsers like NN4 as expressed at
,http://webstandards.org/act/campaign/buc/ ?

FI personally, still see the need to redirect non-compliant users to a
Hpage that tells them more information, like where to obtain an upgrade,
Fwhy they were redirected (or why they were provided the link) and the
like.  Thoughts?

--Josh
]
l13:43:45.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:33:01 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA82DDD.2080805@cookiecrook.com>


DI admit I haven't been paying as close attention to this thread as 
Ipossible, but what do you guys think of adding @media rules? Would this 
work?

6<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" media="all" />

DThen the stylesheet could include general styles still hidden from 
%Netscape 4, immediately followed by:

@media screen {
   @import "screen.css";
}
@media print {
   @import "print.css";
}

@Perhaps there are some bugs associated with this approach, too?

Just curious.
James

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/]
l13:43:45.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.985 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 11:43:05 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD5@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241135500.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>


)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
> Ian Hickson wrote:
@>> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has
=>> delegated authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS
B>> working group, who has decided to change the default to "all".
>
,> Well, that would make *a lot* more sense!

GHeh. I've reminded the relevant person to add this to the HTML errata.


?> Ain't it great when even the "standards" are [in]consistent!

KThe people who write the browsers are the same as the people who write the
7specs... it's to be expected that both are flawed. ;-)

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
/From ian at hixie.ch  Thu Apr 24 20:02:24 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:02:24 -0700 (PDT)
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
&In-Reply-To: <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Miriam Frost wrote:
>
C> Why is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks -- isn't
>
> <p>
> 123 Trogdor St.<br />
> Strongbadia, Wherever<br />
> </p>
>
> better than
> p.address {margin: 0;}
)> <p class="address">123 Trogdor St.</p>
4> <p class="address">Strongbadia, Wherever</p>    ?

Yes, it is. Even better is:

   <address>
   123 Trogdor St.<br>
   Strongbadia, Wherever<br>
   </address>

<<br> is only wrong when used to separate paragraphs, as in:

   Foo Bar.<br>
   <br>
   Baz.<br>
   <br>

...which would be better as:

   <p> Foo Bar. </p>
   <p> Baz. </p>

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
1From miriam at f2o.org  Thu Apr 24 20:04:35 2003
'From: miriam at f2o.org (Miriam Frost)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:04:35 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EA83543.9040605@f2o.org>

>
>
>   <address>
>   123 Trogdor St.<br>
>   Strongbadia, Wherever<br>
>   </address>
>
D'oh!
JI have cause to use <address> so infrequently that it completely slipped 
	my mind.
%Off to wash the egg from my face....

besos
Miriam]
l13:43:45.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:12:29 -0500
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
-	<002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>


=>>I've knocked up a quick demonstration, you can find it at:
I>>http://www.jackinthebox.co.uk/checkboxsize.html Explorer renders these
I>>as you would want them rendered but mozilla causes a few problems with
2>>the checkboxes if you stick a valid doctype in.
> 
B>If you change the classes to lowercase throughout it works fine.

GI can get the input's clickable area to enlarge in Mozilla and Opera, 
Abut not the actual visable representation like in IE. Is this a 
Fpreference setting or perhaps related to the XP native form elements?

Here's a screen shot.
@http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif

GOpera acts about the same except vertically aligned middle instead of 
bottom.

James


-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/]
l13:43:45.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: lists at thinkbigideas.com (Anthony Baker)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 02:24:29 -0700
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
8In-Reply-To: <005301c30a8f$a31f3b80$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
4Message-ID: <001601c30a43$4e8a29f0$210110ac@BigGuy>



H| I personally, still see the need to redirect non-compliant users to a
?| page that tells them more information, like where to obtain 
| an upgrade,
H| why they were redirected (or why they were provided the link) and the
| like.  Thoughts?
| 
	| --Josh



DMake one of your own. Copy the content, create an upgrade page with
Ayour design, paste the content in. I did something similar on an
earlier site myself. 

DThat, or, someone could create another version of the page and have
Ait hosted somewhere, allowing folks to point to it. A grassroots
upgrade effort, as it were.


/Anthony]
l13:43:45.986 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: samuel at latchman.org (Sam Latchman)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:30:20 +0200
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
(In-Reply-To: <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
	<3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org>
,Message-ID: <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>

9If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is

address {margin: 0;}
#<address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
)<address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>

3with possibly some class="street", class="city"...


::Sam

-- 
Samuel Latchman
-----------------
web designer [fr]
http://www.latchman.org/sam/

]
l13:43:45.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:34:40 -0700 (PDT)
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
0In-Reply-To: <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
- <002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
$ <3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, James Craig wrote:
>
H> I can get the input's clickable area to enlarge in Mozilla and Opera,
B> but not the actual visable representation like in IE. Is this a
H> preference setting or perhaps related to the XP native form elements?
>
> Here's a screen shot.
B> http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif

KAssuming that shot is of Mozilla, then I would guess that the XP theme you
;use doesn't support scaling. What does it look like in IE?

FNote that at the moment, styling form controls is not covered by CSS.
GWhile we may be adding more control over this in future levels, at the
9moment, UA implementors can basically do what they like.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
7From work at cookiecrook.com  Thu Apr 24 20:57:40 2003
,From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:57:40 -0500
$Subject: [css-d] Smaller checkboxes
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
BReferences: <OCELLLEFOKBHCOKENHOCEEDDCIAA.jon@jackinthebox.co.uk>
-	<002701c30a7d$f89c04b0$a0ca2341@lighthouse>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241047480.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
$	<3EA8371D.6080901@cookiecrook.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241233110.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
+Message-ID: <3EA841B4.609@cookiecrook.com>

Ian Hickson wrote:
*> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, James Craig wrote:
>
>>Here's a screen shot.
B>>http://www.cookiecrook.com/bugtests/screenshots/cb_sizetest.gif
> 
L>Assuming that shot is of Mozilla, then I would guess that the XP theme you
<>use doesn't support scaling. What does it look like in IE?

GYes, that's Mozilla 1.3 on Win XP. IE6 on XP gets the size right, but 
Duses the default browser form element appearance (black and white) 
Ginstead of the XP styled form controls. This is the default silver XP 
theme, not any add-on.

James

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/]
l13:43:45.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:08:02 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD6@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

James Craig wrote:
E> I admit I haven't been paying as close attention to this thread as
E> possible, but what do you guys think of adding @media rules? Would
> this work?

FThat's exactly the way to go, and is what @media is designed for. The
Iproblem is, AFAIK, @media isn't well supported in some browser that have
Igood CSS support like IE5/Mac and some versions of KHTML-based browsers.

>> <link rel=3D"stylesheet" type=3D"text/css" media=3D"all" />
>=20
E> Then the stylesheet could include general styles still hidden from
'> Netscape 4, immediately followed by:
>=20
> @media screen {
>    @import "screen.css";
> }
> @media print {
>    @import "print.css";
> }
>=20
B> Perhaps there are some bugs associated with this approach, too?

DThat's kinda overkill if you're using it to block NN4, but it's the
Eideal way to work with media=3D"all" in that you're using @media.=20

FThe reason I say it's overkill is because NN4 doesn't get @import, so
*this, for example, would be just as good:

) <style type=3D"text/css" media=3D"all">
-  /* all-media general styles not for NN4 */

 </style>
 <style type=3D"text/css">
  @import "screen.css" screen;
  @import "print.css" print;

 </style>

IOr within that media=3D"all" CSS file (although I'm not sure if @media =
has
to come first, like @import):

-  /* all-media general styles not for NN4 */
 @media screen {
   /*rules for screen*/
 }
 @media print {
   /*rules for print*/
 }

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Thu Apr 24 21:24:45 2003
%From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 21:24:45 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <1051210553.6798@tweek.sebduggan.com>
2Message-ID: <1051215888.5130@tweek.sebduggan.com>


&> From: Miriam Frost <miriam@f2o.org>

> Yow!
/> I think I'll stick with my smaller <br />'s.
> 
:> Why is there anything inherently wrong with line breaks

LThere's absolutely nothing wrong with line breaks. It's just that sometimes
Myou want your styled layout to break in a specific place, but have it appear
 as one line when it's unstyled.
]
l13:43:45.987 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.988 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: info at n2dreamweaver.com (Donna Casey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:44:34 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3References: <1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com>
4Message-ID: <00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>

Itoo bad that the link to the "elm" program that actually works with this
Fstyle of non-munging list replies is an orphaned link...it seems that
Joutlook express doesn't offer a choice between individual and group, just
individual and all.

Donna

?> > http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssDiscussListHeaders
>
>
J> OK, I feel suitably chastened :)  It's just not the reply behaviour I'm
used
> to. I'm sure I'll adjust...]
l13:43:45.988 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.988 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:56:57 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
CMessage-ID: <OFE5E77EAE.7CFFF59F-ON88256D12.0072C185@capgroup.com>


;> If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is

> address {margin: 0;}
%> <address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
+> <address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>

5> with possibly some class="street", class="city"...

HWe're getting off-topic here, but before we leave I'd like to point out
Jthat the above is not actually proper -- it denotes that each line of the
Laddress is an address itself, when in fact each element is only one part of
the address.

Thanks,

MikeL]
l13:43:45.988 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.988 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:08:41 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] WaSP Upgrade Campaign.
7Message-ID: <010501c30aa5$af80eed0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

LI have put together a simple version of the WaSP Upgrade Campaign page that
Mcan be used in a similar manner as the previous one.  I used most of the old
&copy, so there should be no suprises.

%http://www.bewb.org/webstandards.asp


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
]
l13:43:45.988 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.988 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:05:41 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241200310.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
4Message-ID: <60376713968.20030424170541@mrclay.org>

9Thursday, April 24, 2003, 3:02:24 PM, Ian Hickson wrote:
8IH> <br> is only wrong when used to separate paragraphs

FThere are other instances where a line-break is visually preferred in
Fa certain place (rather than left to natural flow).  IMO, these cases
*warrant an alternate line-break solution.

ESay you have a heading that's just a tad too long for a single line:

$|  Welcome to My Page About Race  |
$|  Cars                           |

and you might want:

$|       Welcome to My Page        |
$|        About Race Cars          |

FA <br /> just really doesn't make sense structurally and playing with
Gmargins/padding until it wraps where you want is less-than-ideal (what
7if the user chooses a slightly bigger/different font).

8You could use non-breaking spaces to do something like:

E<h1>Welcome&nbsp;to&nbsp;My&nbsp;Page About&nbsp;Race&nbsp;Cars</h1>

2But this seems more elegant and content-friendly:

D<h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org]
l13:43:45.988 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.989 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: stephen at crescentcreative.com (Stephen Hamilton)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 14:01:18 -0700
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
4In-Reply-To: <009e01c30a1c$25ff5b80$650aa8c0@video>
3Message-ID: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>

GI don't know if it's correct form to reply to your own messages, but I
Ksolved most of my nested list / rollover issues with one remaining niggle.

IMy original problem was caused by not nesting the list elements properly
viz:

	<ul>
		<li>element1</li>
		<ul>
			<li>subelement1</li>
		</ul>
		<li>element2</li>
	</ul>

That piece is now corrected.

HHowever I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
8attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!

%Any pointers are always appreciated.

Stephen

-----Original Message-----
=From: Stephen Hamilton [mailto:stephen@crescentcreative.com]
(Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 9:44 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc


GI have built nested left navigation menus with CSS rollovers on a site
J(www.saveburlingameschools.com) and find significant differences from IE6
<versus Opera 7.1 , Netscape 7.0 , and Mozilla 1.3 (all W2K)

>1) IE does not pick up the color attribute for the text link:

.navbar li a {
 <snip>
  color: #880026;
 }

92) and IE does not pick up the submenu background image:

7http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/index.php?Topic=5

.subnavbar li a  {
 <snip>
1  background-image: url('pictures/submenu.gif');
   background-repeat: no-repeat;
  text-decoration: none;

LAll the other mentioned browsers seem to work ok (though there is a strange
;framing ssue with Mozilla that I haven't quite resolved!).

The style sheets are at :
2http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/measurea.css
8http://www.saveburlingameschools.com/measurealayout.css


.Any thoughts / pointers would be appreciated.

Many thanks

Stephen

J"There are many roads up the mountain, but they all lead to the top   ...
<The road is steep whichever way you go, so enjoy the view!"


]
l13:43:45.989 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.989 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:05:33 -0400
.Subject: [css-d] WaSP's Upgrade page leaving?
5In-Reply-To: <001601c30a43$4e8a29f0$210110ac@BigGuy>
7Message-ID: <006701c30aa5$3f66d010$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Anthony Baker : 
> Make one of your own. 

IYeah, that's what I plan on doing I think.. But my real main concern was
Ethe sites out there that have that reference that are now out of the
Fdesigner's control.  Thankfully I saw on Mark Pilgrim's site that the
Dpage isn't going anywhere, so we won't be sending folks to a 404 on
those older sites.
Ihttp://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/04/21/browser_upgrade_campaign_off
icially_retired.html

-- Josh
]
l13:43:45.989 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.989 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: msauers at bcr.org (Michael Sauers)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 15:39:00 -0600
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
5In-Reply-To: <60376713968.20030424170541@mrclay.org>
;Message-ID: <KGEHKLFLLACNDPAKIHOPIEAHCPAA.msauers@bcr.org>

Steve;

KYou've just lost me completely. You're suggesting that <br /> doesn't make
Lsense to break a line into two but that we should span a space and classify
Iit as "br" (which you didn't say what that class is defined as) instead.

LWhy oh why would I do that? Why doesn't <br /> make sense structurally? Why
Mdo you suggest almost 15x the amount of code instead. This just doesn't make
7sense to me. Did I miss something in your explanation?

3--------------------------------------------------
,Michael Sauers, Librarian, Trainer & Author
*Bibliographical Center for Research (BCR)
3Aurora, CO :: 303-751-6277 x124 :: msauers@bcr.org
3--------------------------------------------------

G> Say you have a heading that's just a tad too long for a single line:
>
H> A <br /> just really doesn't make sense structurally and playing with
I> margins/padding until it wraps where you want is less-than-ideal (what
9> if the user chooses a slightly bigger/different font).
>
:> You could use non-breaking spaces to do something like:
>
G> <h1>Welcome&nbsp;to&nbsp;My&nbsp;Page About&nbsp;Race&nbsp;Cars</h1>
>
4> But this seems more elegant and content-friendly:
>
F> <h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>
]
l13:43:45.989 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.990 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: rudy937 at rogers.com (rudy)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:44:06 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
3References: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>
<Message-ID: <003f01c30aaa$a3bebb90$0cb96618@r9373j4yqbe8dy>

J> However I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
:> attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!
"> (www.saveburlingameschools.com)

*i love the apple with the bite out of it!

Lhowever, the colours on the nav links are identical in ie6 and mozilla, and
5in fact are no different in link versus hover status

,hover underlines the links in both browsers


rudy]
l13:43:45.990 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.990 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: d.abraham at netgates.co.uk (Dave)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:59:14 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3References: <1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com>
)	<00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
2Message-ID: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>

JI am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
Hresource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
replies. Not much use at all.

MI don't understand the logic behind it, anyone know of any other CSS mailing
)lists that don't adopt this odd policy??

LPS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna Casey
(sorry Donna) Not good at all.
]
l13:43:45.990 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.990 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 17:02:01 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] IE 6 vs Opera/Mozilla etc
3References: <012301c30aa4$a728d050$650aa8c0@video>
2Message-ID: <006801c30aad$226a5600$6401a8c0@yoda>

J> However I still have the problem that IE6.0 is not picking up the color
:> attribute.  This too will succumb to engineering rigor!

.Link colors are controlled by pseudo-classes.

.navbar li a:link {
color: #880026;
}

Lonnie
<From contact at lukeredpath.co.uk  Thu Apr 24 23:51:28 2003
2From: contact at lukeredpath.co.uk (Luke Redpath)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:51:28 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
EMessage-ID: <ENEMIKFCPDMDJCEEJFPPEEKNCGAA.contact@lukeredpath.co.uk>

JIf you are using Outlook to use this list, it's not hard to adjust - just
Jhit reply to all instead, and quickly delete the sender from the to list,
leaving the list address.

Simple!

Cheers,

Luke Redpath
--
www.sonicdeath.co.uk/weblog
C"Celebrity Squares" - giving the web a CSS makeover - coming soon!
]
l13:43:45.990 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.991 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:54:53 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051221498.17020@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051224895.24032@tweek.sebduggan.com>


+> From: "Michael Sauers" <msauers@bcr.org>
> 
M> You've just lost me completely. You're suggesting that <br /> doesn't make
N> sense to break a line into two but that we should span a space and classify
K> it as "br" (which you didn't say what that class is defined as) instead.
> 
N> Why oh why would I do that? Why doesn't <br /> make sense structurally? Why
O> do you suggest almost 15x the amount of code instead. This just doesn't make
9> sense to me. Did I miss something in your explanation?

KIf you put a <br /> in the middle of a sentence, it puts a hard structural
Mbreak in - where what you really want is a purely layout break which doesn't
affect the flow of the words.

MIt basically goes to the core of separating layout from content - in Steve's
Kexample, the <br /> is being used just for layout, and should therefore be
frowned on.
]
l13:43:45.991 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.991 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:01:36 -0700 (PDT)
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
-In-Reply-To: <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>
LReferences: <1051186196.27743@tweek.sebduggan.com> <3EA828AA.50506@f2o.org>
< <3EA82CE5.1020306@f2o.org> <3EA83B4C.2060708@latchman.org>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304241558520.15423-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

)On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Sam Latchman wrote:
>
;> If semantics is what you're aiming for, what you need is
>
> address {margin: 0;}
%> <address>123 Trogdor St.</address>
+> <address>Strongbadia, Wherever</address>
>
5> with possibly some class="street", class="city"...

G<address> is a block-level element, it contains a single block address
9(well, actually, a single block of contact information).

HThe above markup would be two addresses, not one. One address should be
Kmarked up with one <address> element, with lineBReaks marked up with <br>.

G<br> is fine, it's only "evil" when it is used to do something that is
Jstrictly presentational. An address has multiple lines even when you read
,it out over the phone, so <br> makes sense.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
;From mark.r.stevens at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 00:00:38 2003
1From: mark.r.stevens at attbi.com (markinoregon)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:00:38 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
DMessage-ID: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>

GWhat's the big deal, I just right click on the message I want to reply
Mto,click reply-all, then remove the person's e-mail address from the to bar,
'like I did just now with Dave's reply.
IIt's just a matter of people being aware of who the addresses are in the
Kreply to header. we all know the horror stories in a corporate environment
Fwhere some knucklehead reply's about something sensitive to EVERYONE!

<>I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
>replies. Not much use at all.

KI TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
Kpeople on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
Kto try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
Athinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.

just my .02 cents.

-----Original Message-----
*From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org
>[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org]On Behalf Of Dave
'Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 2:59 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
*Subject: Re: [css-d] Replying to the list


JI am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
Hresource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
replies. Not much use at all.

MI don't understand the logic behind it, anyone know of any other CSS mailing
)lists that don't adopt this odd policy??

LPS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna Casey
(sorry Donna) Not good at all.


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
DSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/]
l13:43:45.991 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.991 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Eli_Simpson at capgroup.com (Eli_Simpson@capgroup.com)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:14:15 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
CMessage-ID: <OF6AFD6A44.5D94CB6C-ON88256D12.007DFF19@capgroup.com>


F> <h1>Welcome to My Page<span class="br"> </span>About Race Cars</h1>

EWith that solution you could end up with breaks between other words,
Idepending on font/window sizes.  Here's what I would do if you wanted to
5force a line break at that exact place and no other:

C<h1 style="white-space: nowrap">Welcome to My Page<br />About Race
Cars</h1>]
l13:43:45.991 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.991 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: d.abraham at netgates.co.uk (Dave)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:14:16 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
DReferences: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>
2Message-ID: <007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>


M> I TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
M> people on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
M> to try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
C> thinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.
>
> just my .02 cents.

MI have not been around long enough to see that. I am not saying people don't
Lhelp,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making the information
Lharder to find. It is more of an assumption and an observation after only a
day of watching mind.

]
l13:43:45.991 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.992 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:41:44 -0400
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
DReferences: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAMEFLCAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>
'	<007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>
#Message-ID: <3EA87638.46D7@ij.net>

Dave wrote:
 
> markinoregon wrote:

O> > I TOTALLY disagree with that statement DAVE, I've gotten lots of help from
O> > people on here, as a matter-of-fact, I print out some threads as reference
O> > to try the techniques later, even if I don't need the info now. I was even
E> > thinking of compiling a PDF file of the topics that interest me.
 
O> I have not been around long enough to see that. I am not saying people don't
N> help,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making the information
N> harder to find. It is more of an assumption and an observation after only a
> day of watching mind.

Offlist replies mean:

E1-Others have no clue how many or even if others have responded to a
Brequest, which means there's no way for others to know whether an
+(additional) reply from them is warranted.

C2-Validity checking is unavailable. If others don't see responses,
:defective replies aren't trapped for rebuttal/correction.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

@Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html]
l13:43:45.992 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.992 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: info at n2dreamweaver.com (Donna Casey)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 16:43:55 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
References: 
O	<1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com><00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
'	<002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
4Message-ID: <003c01c30abb$5ef43290$7802a8c0@buglet>


H> PS: This is the second attempt, my first message went direct to Donna
Casey
!> (sorry Donna) Not good at all.

Mnot a problem but my point was that the link to the ELM program was defunct.
JI found the setup here odd at first but adjusted even with OE after a few
'abrupt messages from the email police.

I--mostly lurk and snatch up the delicious crumbs of CSS that others drop
here and there....

J<slithering back to a dark corner of the list.....we loves it here, don't
we, my preciousssss......>
]
l13:43:45.992 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.992 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:50:04 +0100
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
References: 
O	<1051193106.26092@tweek.sebduggan.com><00fb01c30aa2$50915f70$7802a8c0@buglet>
'	<002301c30aac$bf2c9ad0$55a423d9@Dave>
2Message-ID: <00f701c30abc$3abdc2f0$fd00a8c0@mike>

Dave

KI rarely send a message to a list... and though I've been an ardent lurker
Bfor a while this may well be the first time I have written to it.

JYou may already have learned something from replies as to how to reply to
Mthe list. Simple enough to use "reply-all" etc but so many people don't know
it.

MMore seriously, on CSS, there is no way you will get better quality in-depth
LCSS info anywhere. Far in advance of (incompetent) table based Web-dev too.
FWriter's to the list have combined technical knowledge and experience
Eunequalled. Enormously helpful, almost always on topic, friendly and
Hrespectful. Better than books or formal study. Stay with it a while and
Hyou'll see what I mean, give yourself time to get the "feel" of all the
helpful characters involved.

HTH, and welcome.

Mike
Edinburgh, Scotland

L> I am also new, and no I don't think I will adjust. I use these lists as a
J> resource and I can already see a whole bunch of questions with very few
!> replies. Not much use at all.]
l13:43:45.992 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.992 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 19:54:42 -0400
ISubject: [css-d] Helpfulness of the list (was Re:  Replying to the list)
3In-Reply-To: <007701c30ab7$3a3fd2a0$55a423d9@Dave>
7Message-ID: <007801c30abc$e3252e60$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



	> Dave :
<> I have not been around long enough to see that. I am not 
> saying people don't
?> help,  I am saying they do help but do it in private making 
> the information
6> harder to find. It is more of an assumption and an 
> observation after only a
> day of watching mind.


GJust a friendly suggestion Dave, hang out and give it a bit more time.
FWhat you don't see yet, and what impressed the hell outta me was just
>*how much* time some people here put into helping others with
Hworkarounds, helping with bug research, browser/os issues and the like.
BA lot of that help seems to happen on off time like after work or
Ebetween projects (I assume a lot of other people 'work' for a living
around here). 

EIf you take a cruise through the archives, it'll become obvious that
Isome of those answers and suggestions take a LONG time just to formulate
Ibefore it makes it to the list.  I say obvious because of the sheer size
"and complexity of some of them.  

EGo through and look at some of the replies from Holly Bergevin... At
Itimes she's reproduced entire pages with full code and original graphics
Hjust to help someone with their trouble.  And she's not the only one, I
Hdon't mean to exclude anyone, she's just the first that came to memory.
GPersonally, I can't figure out where some of these kind people get the
time!

CMany times people will solve their own problem that was previously
Eposted to the list and are kind enough to say "I figured it out, and
here's how..."

HDon't forget, many subscribe as Digest Mode, so they only get one email
Ea day, not every single one.  This slows down the process a bit too.

HYMMV, but I looked for a while JUST for this kind of help and this kind
Gof discussion, and while there are some other nice places out there, I
Hreally think, bang-for-the-buck, you just can't beat this list for this
particular issue. :)

--Josh

]
l13:43:45.993 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.994 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-discuss at plumlee.org (css-discuss@plumlee.org)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:22:43 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
<Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030424201237.00bbd7c0@plumlee.org>

LI've been trying to use the excellent layouts provided by Alex Robinson to 
;cure a layout with Mac IE problems.  Ran across something 
Minteresting/infuriating and I'm hoping that someone here can either explain 
6it to me or point me in the direction of a known bug.

CUsing this layout, I tried to set up a page with a fixed width of 
.762px.  Left column is 120px, right is 145px.
�http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml?order=213&width_one=50&width_two=120&width_three=145&wrap_width=762&column_gutter=0&column_vertical_padding=0&column_horizontal_padding=0&columns_background=1&border_surround=0&body_padding=0&longest_column=one&controls=1&show_style=0

LLooks great in Mozilla and Opera.  If I try to place an image in the right 
Jhand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE 
5refuses to display the content in that third column.

HShorten the length of the image by 4px, and it displays.  Lengthen the 
Loverall length of the container div by 4px, it displays.  It looks like IE 
Kis placing a a 4px padding around the image.  Tried setting it to display 
&inline and block, no luck either way.

IBut if I float the image left or right, IE 6 works perfectly.  I've run 
Lacross problems where IE 6 collapses padding and margins when elements are 
Jadjacent to floated elements, so it seems that I'm taking advantage of a 
hack here.

Any thoughts?

Scott Plumlee
JPGP Public key: http://plumlee.org/pgp/   D64C 47D9 B855 5829 D22A  D390 
F8E2 9B58 9CBF 1F8D]
l13:43:45.994 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.994 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: earthwrk at earthlink.net (Bill Scheider)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:00:41 -0700
&Subject: [css-d] Replying to the list
3In-Reply-To: <00f701c30abc$3abdc2f0$fd00a8c0@mike>
BMessage-ID: <MABBLFKKJOFHOKMHGDFOKEEOCPAA.earthwrk@earthlink.net>

	Hi Mike,

9I totally agree with you RE the quality of the CSS info.

MIt's not only better than books but many of the folks discussing CSS on this
:list have /written/ the books! It doesn't get any better.

Bill
G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
]
l13:43:45.994 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.995 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: john at evolt.org.uk (John Handelaar)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 03:09:36 +0100
NSubject: ADMIN: End of thread, please. (was RE: [css-d] Replying to the list,
	and others)
CIn-Reply-To: <MABBLFKKJOFHOKMHGDFOKEEOCPAA.earthwrk@earthlink.net>
=Message-ID: <HNEPIHIKGMNGPEJJCMGMGEGACGAA.john@evolt.org.uk>


3My apologies to those who were wondering where the
 stand-in listmom went to today.

0It's time to stop this thread, I think, in the 
4interest of maintaining our regular signal-to-noise
ratio.

1Eric's position on header munging is very clear,
.and the relevant explanation on the wiki was 
posted earlier this afternoon.

3That wiki post also makes it abundantly clear that
3the place to drag this up (since it's clearly off-
-topic) is in private mail to the list owner.

-Eric will be back in a couple of weeks.  I'd
2appreciate not getting mail on the subject during
4his absence since I'm certainly not about to change
5the list settings without being able to consult him.

3I hope that I don't have to enforce this tomorrow,

folks :-)

Thanks for your attention.

John H
Server admin
,On behalf of the currently-absent Mr Meyer.

+------------------------------------------
John Handelaar

+T +44 20 8459 4923       M +44 7930 681789
+F +44 870 169 7657   E john@userfrenzy.com
+------------------------------------------
:From chris at placenamehere.com  Fri Apr 25 04:26:50 2003
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:26:50 -0400
CSubject: [css-d] [ANNC] PNH Developer Toolbar for Mozilla/Netscape
6In-Reply-To: <BAC2D566.52680%chris@placenamehere.com>
5Message-ID: <BACE233A.5380F%chris@placenamehere.com>

Eon 4/16/03 9:39 AM, Chris Casciano at chris@placenamehere.com wrote:

L> Since the cat is out of the bag already I figured I'd pass along the word
?> that I've released a toolbar add on for web developers using
> Mozilla/Netscape.
> 

1v0.51 is here! you firebird users get your wish!

%http://placenamehere.com/pnhtoolbar/

"Change Log for v0.51 (from v0.50)
F* Added a Firebird/Phoenix compatible installer w/ minor link changes
!* Added encoding of complex URLs
* Fixed a few typos
)* Added submission the W3C P3P Validator
)* Added Link to the DevEdge Sidebar Tabs

8Grab it now! Feedback to moz@placenamehere.com, please.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
1[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]]
l13:43:45.995 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.995 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:08 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
5Message-ID: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>

1Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
MS> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
KS> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
)S> stylesheets, there would be no break.

GSince this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
(for the methods described by Seb and I:
!http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/]
l13:43:45.995 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.996 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 22:25:09 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] Select first LI of an UL
>In-Reply-To: <F552B577-74D1-11D7-B5E8-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
=References: <F552B577-74D1-11D7-B5E8-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>
3Message-ID: <12059885896.20030424222509@attbi.com>

6Arlen wrote on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 at 9:51:54 AM:

> li {font-weight: bold;}
> li + li {font-weight:normal}

B> [...] When it fails, the entire list will be bolded, so perhaps
?> you'll want to combine it with a hack that screens out those
1> browsers from seeing the initial bold styling.

CThis should have a better success rate, and it's not really a hack
;(i.e., it makes common sense, even if it is a bit longer):

    ul>li{font-weight:bold}
!    ul>li+li{font-weight:normal}

@There aren't many browsers that support child selectors without
'supporting adjacent sibling selectors.

-- 
John Lewis]
l13:43:45.996 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.997 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:22:54 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] lists line height
7In-Reply-To: <014101c30931$efd61ca0$6001a8c0@felwithe>
3References: <000001c30930$2a93df00$42d5fea9@Estes>
+ <014101c30931$efd61ca0$6001a8c0@felwithe>
2Message-ID: <8263351585.20030424232254@attbi.com>

7Brandy wrote on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 at 7:47:37 PM:

$> http://clients.mediadiva.net/css/

C> The links on the left bottom side, I have the line height set to
E> 120, and I like how it looks, but I thought it was possible to set
?> the height between each LI element and then the height of an
G> individual LI element itself. This way links the run over to 2 lines
)> will look like 1 link and not 2 links.

'> Anyone know what I am talking about?

BYes. Although it took me a while to understand. :) If you want to
Cretain the line-height but have the links' background-color remain
G"together" over multiple lines, I think you'll need to use padding-top
3and padding-bottom on the a elements. For example:

    ul li a{padding:.2em 0}

CShould do the trick. You may also consider this, depending on your
0needs, but I doubt it will be more appropriate:

    ul>li a{padding:.2em 0}

$Support isn't as good, at any rate.

-- 
John Lewis]
l13:43:45.997 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.998 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:18:01 -0500
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
4In-Reply-To: <000001c30a0f$5ab9d060$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
3References: <000001c30a0f$5ab9d060$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
3Message-ID: <14863058716.20030424231801@attbi.com>

9Aleem wrote on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 at 10:12:35 PM:

D> When I said semantic, I wasn't looking for a response along these
G> lines, but rather something which went beyond - example: by default,
F> does the body have a margin of ~10px from the frame or a padding of
D> 10px within? Is either semantically correct? In publishing, pages
C> don't have a frame (chrome) and since electronic publishing is a
D> derivative of print, I would go with padding instead of margin on
> that one.

ACSS agrees with you. <http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/sample.html>

AI don't think it's possible to make a case for margin, if you're
Efamiliar with the spec. Of course that's what most browsers use. The
Eabove sample style sheet is just a suggestion, which is a good thing
	overall.

-- 
John Lewis]
l13:43:45.998 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:45.998 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:23:38 -0500
9Subject: [css-d] semantically correct: padding vs margin
0In-Reply-To: <3EA750F0.4020602@adelaide.edu.au>
3References: <000601c309f6$2e39ca90$0a00a8c0@Aleem>
$ <3EA750F0.4020602@adelaide.edu.au>
1Message-ID: <663395931.20030424232338@attbi.com>

8Steve wrote on Wednesday, April 23, 2003 at 9:50:24 PM:

?> <aside> Seems to me that many posts to this list are readily
@> answered by reference to the CSS2 spec. OK, it's not the most
G> readable spec in the world, and sometimes you need to read something
E> two or three times before you get it, but, it is worth reading. If
E> you haven't got it, get it. Mine is on my desk, or nearby, all the
> time. </aside>

-Those types of questions aren't discouraged.
+<http://www.css-discuss.org/policies.html>

FYour advice is nonetheless helpful, of course. I think what we really
Gneed is a comprehensive "spec for dummies," a document that deals with
CCSS2 as simply as possible, written for CSS authors instead of CSS
Fimplementors. A basic CSS vocabulary tutorial alone would be amazing;
Eeven veteran authors fudge their technospeak jargon. I think most of
Dthe CSS2 spec is pretty readable nowadays, but a couple years ago I
!was confused by simple passages.

-- 
John Lewis]
l13:43:45.999 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.000 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:24:35 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
6In-Reply-To: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
*	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
/Message-ID: <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>

Steve Clay wrote:
3> Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
O> S> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
M> S> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
+> S> stylesheets, there would be no break.
> 
I> Since this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
*> for the methods described by Seb and I:
#> http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks

Nice page!

I notice you used

	white-space:pre-line;

 whereas the CSS2 spec at W3 has

	white-space:pre;

"Is this something new? Or a typo?


:I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using 
Awhitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in 
9the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

@<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
#   <meta http-equiv="content-type"
+  content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
/   <meta name="author" content="Steve Thomas">
   <title>Test</title>
   <style type="text/css">
      h1 { text-align: center; }
"     h1#pref { white-space:pre; }
   </style>
</head>
<body>
#<h1 id="pref">Dr. Strangelove,<br>
or:<br>
6How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb</h1>
<p>Blah blah blah</p>
</body>
</html>

AOn browsers which don't implement whitespace, this will degrade 
Anicely. Those that do will display the heading precisely as you 
@want. (With the caveat that whitespace:pre will keep each line 
:as given, even with narrow windows, requiring scrolling.)

AAbove all, this preserves the semantic integrity of the heading 
*intact, without the need to embed coding.


Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
5URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/]
l13:43:46.000 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.000 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:00:58 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
6Message-ID: <0C1E480F.3B3D924D.009CE500@netscape.net>

css-discuss@plumlee.org wrote:

$>layouts provided by Alex Robinson 

�>http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/layouts/3Col_NN4_FMFM.mhtml?order=213&width_one=50&width_two=120&width_three=145&wrap_width=762&column_gutter=0&column_vertical_padding=0&column_horizontal_padding=0&columns_background=1&border_surround=0&body_padding=0&longest_column=one&controls=1&show_style=0

*>If I try to place an image in the right 
L>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE 
6>refuses to display the content in that third column.

�Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the size of the image. Is it possible you have a page you could put up so your specific case can be looked at? That would make it easier to give specific suggestions instead of theoritical ones.

�As for hacks for IE, (and other browsers as needed), in my opinion, they are inevitable. As long as they validate, and don't mess something up for another browser (that cannot be worked around) you're probably going to have to use some. 

�However, I always try to see if I can write/fix a page in such a way as to use the least number possible. What that means is if IE6 needs to have and image floated to work, and floating that image doesn't bother other browsers, I write it so the image is floated and move on to something else. 

Now, about that URL...

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
4From gleemax at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 06:10:45 2003
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:10:45 -0500
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
0In-Reply-To: <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
M <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org> <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
3Message-ID: <12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>

8Steve wrote on Thursday, April 24, 2003 at 11:54:35 PM:

 >         white-space:pre-line;

$> Is this something new? Or a typo?

8It's new in CSS 2.1, which is not yet a recommendation:
8<http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/text.html#white-space-prop>

-- 
John Lewis]
l13:43:46.000 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.001 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gavin at refinery.com (Gavin Kistner)
&Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 23:21:43 -0600
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
@Message-ID: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>

EForgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the 
<browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
0http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

CMy expectation was for the way Camino/Mozilla did it to be right. 
F(Under the assumption that 100% was based off of the 'standard' line 
Fheight, and hence >100% should result in increased line spacing, not 
decreased.)

HBut now the spec seems to imply that something like Safari may be more 
Ecorrect. I'm just...very unused to Mozilla getting something wrong. 
I(Camino is built off of the Mozilla 1.0 trunk, IIRC, but the appearance 
is the same in 1.2.1 also.)]
l13:43:46.001 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.001 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:06:24 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
M	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org> <3EA8BF8B.9010100@adelaide.edu.au>
(	<12966223770.20030425001045@attbi.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA8C958.2010405@adelaide.edu.au>

John Lewis wrote:
:> Steve wrote on Thursday, April 24, 2003 at 11:54:35 PM:
> 
> 
 >>        white-space:pre-line;
> 
> 
$>>Is this something new? Or a typo?
> 
> 
:> It's new in CSS 2.1, which is not yet a recommendation:
9> <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/text.html#white-space-prop
> 

@Thanks. And amazingly, although not yet even a recommendation, 
 it works! (In Moz 1.2.1 anyway)

AI guess on reflection, that gives you an insight into how these 
0standards are generated in the first place. :-)

	Regards,
Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
5URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/]
l13:43:46.001 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.041 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:47:25 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Path Positioning Problem.
6Message-ID: <02A69262.14063CDB.009CE500@netscape.net>

5"Will Boyett" <WBoyett@smtp.co.alachua.fl.us> wrote:

I>Hello all, I'm still rather new to this list, and so appologize for any
>faux pas on my part.

Hi Will - Welcome to the list.

>here is my dilema:
>
H>I am trying to make a local path statement in a bar, with a link to my
K>site map on the right margin of the same bar.  So far, so good. However,
E>my Site Map link keeps overlapping the text of my path statement on
>narrow monitors, 
[snip]

�Now I have to apologize, because even with your explanation and the code you provided, you lost me. Is it possible for you to provide a URL to the page in question so we can give it a look see? If the content is restricted, strip it out and replace it with dummy text. Working with the actual page generally offers the best opportunity for someone to provide helpful advice.

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
8From holnkids at netscape.net  Fri Apr 25 07:04:05 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:04:05 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] template with changing content
6Message-ID: <69589F46.5F9A91EF.009CE500@netscape.net>

#Donna m87 <dm87@rogers.com> wrote:

H>I have created a template using absolutely positioned css div for the 
G>header, content and footer.  When the content increases, the footer 
>is overwritten.
>
D>How can I get the footer to adjust automatically when the content 
D>volume changes? Can one combine absolute and relative positioning?
>
G>What sorts of concepts should i be researching to look at my options?

aHi Donna - Have you seen the wiki pages about different layout options? The main page is here - 
0http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts

�There are links to several other wiki pages from the above page that discuss the merits and difficulties of various types of layouts as well as links to outside sources. 

�In addition, Bob Easton has assembled a very nice collection of links to 3-column-layouts (with notes about the techniques used on each) - 
8http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=ThreeColumnLayouts

gIf you don't need that many columns, many 3-column layouts can be adjusted to work with fewer columns.

HTH,

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Fri Apr 25 09:18:24 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:18:24 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051243530.20492@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051258707.23490@tweek.sebduggan.com>


JThanks Steve - I couldn't have explained it better myself (and, indeed, I
didn't...).

Seb


&> From: Steve Clay <steve@mrclay.org>
*> Reply-To: Steve Clay <steve@mrclay.org>
(> Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 00:06:08 -0400
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
3> Subject: Re: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
> 
> 
3> Thursday, April 24, 2003, 8:09:55 AM, Seb wrote:
O> S> I was trying to find a method of creating a line break in the middle of a
M> S> line of text, but without using a <br> tag - so that, if viewed without
+> S> stylesheets, there would be no break.
> 
I> Since this thread is surely getting boring, I put together a demo page
*> for the methods described by Seb and I:
#> http://mrclay.org/junk/thebreaks
> 
> Steve
> -- 
> http://mrclay.org/
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 
]
l13:43:46.041 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.042 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:22:35 +0100
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
2Message-ID: <1051262556.1547@tweek.sebduggan.com>


:Is there any way to set the minimum height of an element?

LThere is the CSS2 property min-height, but it only seems to be supported in
MOpera 6+ and Gecko/Mozilla browsers - no versions of IE, or the current beta
(of Safari (although it may come later).

JSo, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x pixels
Lhigh, while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary? (And before
Lsomeone suggests it, I don't intend putting a 1px x 400px gif in my page ;)


Seb
]
l13:43:46.042 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.043 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:28:02 +0200
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

E> So, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x
pixels high,=20
:while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary?
GIn IE on PC, it will expand if you have set the height to 20px and its
content is bigger...
FHowever, you can't use min-height and height in conjunction for Gecko
etc.

So, for IE on PC, use this:

height:20px;

0and for standrads-compliant browsers, use this:

min-height:20px;


/Robert
1From rijk at opera.com  Fri Apr 25 10:46:42 2003
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:46:42 +0200
Subject: [css-d] Min-height
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
MReferences: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
)Message-ID: <oprn6ir4x6yoq9u9@localhost>

LOn Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:28:02 +0200, Robert Nyman <robert.nyman@centus.com> 
wrote:

F>> So, is there a workaround that lets you make an element at least x
J>> pixels high, while still allowing it to expand to bigger if necessary?

I> In IE on PC, it will expand if you have set the height to 20px and its
> content is bigger...
H> However, you can't use min-height and height in conjunction for Gecko
> etc.
>
> So, for IE on PC, use this:
>
> height:20px;
2> and for standrads-compliant browsers, use this:
> min-height:20px;

For example like this:

$div {height:20px; min-height:20px;}
html>body div {height:auto;}

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
A making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com M]
l13:43:46.043 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.044 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:59:02 +0100
ISubject: [css-d] safari and mac IE5 hacks or alternative layout solution
	needed
0Message-ID: <3EA906E6.1010304@starskiweb.co.uk>

Hi All

JI need some help with this conversion from a table layout to a tableless 
layout. This is it so far:-

:http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/3_col_margin_border.htm

GI have a fixed width 3 column layout with a liquid header and footer. 
HColumns 2 and 3 have their own header. I have tried various solutions, 
Cbut currently I have 2 main floating columns, the second of which 
Econtains two floating sub columns. I have used a top margin to push 
Jthese two sub columns down and have an absolutely positioned heading for 
Jthese columns. The center and right columns need a border so this was my 
.main reason for wrapping them in another div.

EThis works on PC IE5 and 6, Mozilla 1.3, but safari (not sure which 
Mversion) the footer wont stay put and and IE5 mac the main column drifts up.

HThis doesn't need to support Netscape 4 - I will be hiding most of the 
styling from that.

--
Rick Hurst
http://hypothecate.co.uk]
l13:43:46.044 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.045 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 19:48:47 +0930
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
6In-Reply-To: <2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
2References: <BACD92A3.71E4%outlaw@joseywales.com>
*	<2-1693011984.20030425000608@mrclay.org>
/Message-ID: <3EA90B87.3010409@adelaide.edu.au>

>Arrgghh! Apologies to all, my HTML editor mangled my example 
Bcode, which should of course NOT have <br> tags in the middle of 
:the header. Here's the corrected version (at the risk of 
prolonging the bordom):

...

9I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
@whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
9the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

@<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
$    <meta http-equiv="content-type"
,   content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
0    <meta name="author" content="Steve Thomas">
    <title>Test</title>
    <style type="text/css">
!      h1 { text-align: center; }
#      h1#pref { white-space:pre; }
    </style>
</head>
<body>
<h1 id="pref">Dr. Strangelove,
or:
6How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Bomb</h1>
<p>Blah blah blah</p>
</body>
</html>

@On browsers which don't implement whitespace, this will degrade
@nicely. Those that do will display the heading precisely as you
?want. (With the caveat that whitespace:pre will keep each line
:as given, even with narrow windows, requiring scrolling.)

@Above all, this preserves the semantic integrity of the heading
*intact, without the need to embed coding.

<(And no, whitespace:pre-line; doesn't work in Moz1.2.1/PC.)


8Hopefully that makes more sense than the previous post.


Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
5URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/]
l13:43:46.045 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.045 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:06 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
4In-Reply-To: <1051266048.25755@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051268466.27913@tweek.sebduggan.com>


6> From: Steve Thomas <stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au>
>....
;> I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
B> whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
;> the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:

MVery nice Steve - this seems to be the most elegant solution so far - and it
2seems to work in every browser I've thrown it at!

(I'll be changing my own code to this...


Seb
]
l13:43:46.045 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.046 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 06:00:13 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
AIn-Reply-To: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
3Message-ID: <16087194233.20030425060013@attbi.com>

6Gavin wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 12:21:43 AM:

2> http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

D> My expectation was for the way Camino/Mozilla did it to be right.
G> (Under the assumption that 100% was based off of the 'standard' line
G> height, and hence >100% should result in increased line spacing, not
> decreased.)

BThe suggested default line-height value is between 1 and 1.2, but
Athere is no rule saying browsers need to follow it. Any value is
Facceptable according to CSS2. That means it's impossible to determine
Gif a value greater than 100% will be bigger, smaller, or the same. All
:this without taking crazy user style sheets into account!

FAfter reading CSS2, playing with line-height in Opera 7.1 and Mozilla
G1.4a, and comparing renderings for far too long, I'm stumped. I really
Fhave very little idea of how the inline box model and line-height are
Gsupposed to work. For the most part, with identical values Mozilla and
FOpera returned similar and even identical results. That's comforting.
GFor some reason, Mozilla doesn't behave anything like Camino. At first
EI thought my test page was strange; then I visited your page and the
EMozilla result look basically identical to Opera and Safari. I can't
Dexplain the Mac IE or Camino results. I don't expect line-height to
5behave like that, but I'm pretty weak on the theory.

8The shoddiness of the Win IE rendering is self-evident.

BI'd be interested to see if anyone knows or can figure out why my
AMozilla and your Camino rendering look so different. I don't use
BMozilla much, so I haven't changed anything but the default font.

-- 
John Lewis]
l13:43:46.047 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.047 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:11:04 +0200
OSubject: [css-d] Tip: How to add a rule with script and use the Box Model Hack
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D2@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

ITo use the Box Model hack in script, you need to add an extra backslash,
Hsince JavaScript interprets the first one for string escape purposes...

	Example:

6oStyleSheet.addRule("div.levelItem", "height:22px;");
8oStyleSheet.addRule("div.levelItem", "he\\ight:20px;");


/Robert
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Fri Apr 25 12:23:06 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:23:06 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052D3@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

<Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only,
(which browsers are the most common etc?


/Robert
8From rick at starskiweb.co.uk  Fri Apr 25 13:10:08 2003
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:10:08 +0100
3Subject: [css-d] how do I hide style from Mac IE5?
0Message-ID: <3EA925A0.4080609@starskiweb.co.uk>

FI've made some progress with my liquid header and footer/fixed width 
Jcolumns layout problem and now my only real concern is the IE5 mac mess:-

)http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v6.htm

>so what I want now is just a hack to hide styles from mac IE5

cheers

--
Rick Hurst
http://hypothecate.co.uk]
l13:43:46.047 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.048 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:09:11 +0200
3Subject: [css-d] how do I hide style from Mac IE5?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052DC@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

@> so what I want now is just a hack to hide styles from mac IE5
8http://www.sam-i-am.com/testsuite/css/mac_ie5_hack.html

/Robert
3From dmead at optiem.com  Fri Apr 25 13:21:47 2003
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:21:47 -0400
-Subject: [css-d] Hyperlink position in NN4.7
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E928D@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

Hi all,

EI've only joined the list yesterday and I already have a question to
pose.

GI'm designing a web site that has to be "viewable" down to NN4.7.  I'm
Iusing table with some CSS to style content in the cells etc.  My problem
	is this.

EMy footer nav runs nicely along the bottom (shortened version here):

  <div class=3D"footernav">=20
0  <p>&nbsp;<a href=3D"#">MENU</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;<a
#href=3D"#">LOCATIONS&nbsp;</a></p>
	  </div>

with the CSS code:

E  .footernav { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:
G8px; color: #FEAC22; text-decoration: none; background-color: #7B0808;
padding: 5px 10px; }
H  .footernav a:link { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:
E#FEAC22; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px; background-color:
transparent; }
D  .footernav a:visited { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
:color: #FEAC22; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px;
 background-color: transparent;}
I  .footernav a:hover { font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; color:
E#FFFFFF; text-decoration: none; padding: 5px 10px; background-color:
transparent; }

=It looks fine in IE but when viewed in NN4.7 the links stack
Hone-on-top-of-another instead of side-by-side!  I've created a separate
Fstyle sheet for NN and removed the padding from the CSS code and this
Fbunches them all up (hence the two &nbsp; between links).  Is there a
)way around this or is this the best fix.

FI did a quick check through the archives but didn't turn anything up.
FApologies if the code is a little sloppy but I'm still finding my CSS
feet so to speak.

Many thanks,

Dave]
l13:43:46.048 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.048 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: larz at cbis.ece.drexel.edu (Ryan La Riviere)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:38:54 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] New CSS2 Site - XHTML 1.0
7In-Reply-To: <006f01c30920$b0d61750$6001a8c0@felwithe>
6Message-ID: <BACE968E.27D21%larz@cbis.ece.drexel.edu>

JOn 04/22/2003 18:44, "Brandy (mediadiva)" <fortuneb@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> who did?
> 
>> 
1>> Yea...spelled Cingular wrong on the file.  :/

JMe on the screenshot's file name I had uploaded...I should have specified
the "I" part.

-Ryan

-- 
Mr. Ryan La Riviere
6Project Manager; Mechanical Engineering and Mechanics
*College of Engineering; Drexel University
Philadelphia, PA 19104

*hp: http://staff.tdec.drexel.edu/~edljedi
IM (AIM, Yahoo, MSN): edljedi
w: 215.895.6460
<Geek Code: http://staff.tded.drexel.edu/~edljedi/geeksville

HOne thing the hardware engineers just can't seem to get the bugs out of
is... fresh paint.]
l13:43:46.048 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.049 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:51:43 +0000
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>



=>Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only,
)>which browsers are the most common etc?

+My own stats, for what they're worth, say:

Ecxplorer 5    69%
Safari         15%
Mozilla         6%
Netscape 6      4%
Netscape 4      4%
Explorer 4      2%

NNote that these numbers are mainly from my development sites which attract a 
7higher share of non-IE browsers than the average site.

IWhichever stats you'll find, please keep in mind that Safari's share is 
Igoing to rise dramatically when it becomes the default browser for OS X.

GAny Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and 
Safari.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
;MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
*http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus]
l13:43:46.049 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.049 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-discuss at plumlee.org (css-discuss@plumlee.org)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 08:54:17 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
7In-Reply-To: <0C1E480F.3B3D924D.009CE500@netscape.net>
<Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030425084249.00b5a738@plumlee.org>

(At 01:00 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:

+ >>If I try to place an image in the right
L >>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE
8 >>refuses to display the content in that third column.
 >
L >Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I
N >could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending
M >on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the
M >size of the image. Is it possible you have a page you could put up so your
M >specific case can be looked at? That would make it easier to give specific
+ >suggestions instead of theoritical ones.

6thank you for the response.  I've placed a page here:
Lhttp://wgi.org/2003/indexmac2.php where you can copy the code and watch it 
Hhappen.  Allow the float, works in IE.  Remove the float, doesn't show.

MWith the float: left in place for the img tag, it display correctly in IE 6 
>and Mozilla and Opera 7.10.  Without it, it vanishes in IE 6.

JAgain, many thinks to Alex Robinson for all the work on the page, and to 
Kthe other contributors (including Holly, I believe) that are listed there.

M >However, I always try to see if I can write/fix a page in such a way as to
M >use the least number possible. What that means is if IE6 needs to have and
F >image floated to work, and floating that image doesn't bother other
N >browsers, I write it so the image is floated and move on to something else.

JI appreciate the advice.  I think I might have a "immovable object meets 
?the irresistible force" complex about this problem right now.]
l13:43:46.050 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:57:14 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052E0@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

Interesting!
GEspecially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
!dramatically increase later on).
IHave you seen any pattern when it comes to versions of IE, i.e. 5.0, 5.1
	and 5.2?


/Robert


-----Original Message-----
<From: Peter-Paul Koch [mailto:gassinaumasis@hotmail.com]=20
Sent: den 25 april 2003 14:52
.To: Robert Nyman; css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
4Subject: Re: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?




F>Does anyone know where I can find stats for Mac users only, which=20
#>browsers are the most common etc?

+My own stats, for what they're worth, say:

Ecxplorer 5    69%
Safari         15%
Mozilla         6%
Netscape 6      4%
Netscape 4      4%
Explorer 4      2%

CNote that these numbers are mainly from my development sites which
attract a=20
7higher share of non-IE browsers than the average site.

KWhichever stats you'll find, please keep in mind that Safari's share is=20
Igoing to rise dramatically when it becomes the default browser for OS X.

IAny Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and=20
Safari.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
4http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/ Column "Keep it Simple":
1http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
=MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.=20
,http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/virus]
l13:43:46.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:14:06 +0000
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>


>Interesting!
H>Especially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
">dramatically increase later on).

AMy Safari stats are especially unreliable because I posted some 
LSafari-related material pretty soon after the beta was released. Naturally 
Hgeeky Safari users first take a look at sites discussing their beloved 
	browser.

LFor the non-geeky sites I keep track of the score is between 2 and 10 % of 
4all Mac users (and I find that 10% strangely high).

K>Have you seen any pattern when it comes to versions of IE, i.e. 5.0, 5.1 

>and 5.2?

Nope.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
>Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. 
-http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail]
l13:43:46.051 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.053 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: WBoyett at smtp.co.alachua.fl.us (Will Boyett)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:56:18 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Path Positioning Problem.
1Message-ID: <sea90654.037@smtp.co.alachua.fl.us>

Holly et all;

GFirst off, let me say that I recieved an off-list reply from Jason Van
FPelt which has not only served as the foundation for my correction of
Dthe issue I was having, but has also served to illuminate whole new
Iaspects of CSS which I only dimly understood before... a classic example
Cof a working example being worth volumes of technical explanation.

DThat said, I would be happy to provide a link to the site, and I do
Iwelcome other construcitve commentary. My goal/directive is to provide a
Every accessible site using CSS layout, and favoring a "Red White and
IBlue" palette.  I have inherited a lot of code from previous webmasters,
Eand as the redesign is only one of my job duties, I have not had the
Itime to devote to removing all of the older legacy elements to date. The
Imain page (which does not use the path statement I wrote for help on) is
in my signature.

Chttp://elections.alachua.fl.us/welcome.html is one of the pages in
Hwhich the code can be seen. The "problem code" was the red outlined box
Hwith the path statement and the site map link. It now has new code, and
works as originally intended.


William Dove Boyett
#Alachua County Elections Webmaster
"http://elections.co.alachua.fl.us
8-------------------------------------------------------
!"The user owns the Back button."
4-- Dr. Jakob Nielsen, http://www.useit.com/alertbox

@>>> Holly Bergevin <holnkids@netscape.net> 04/25/03 01:47AM >>>
[snip snip]
DNow I have to apologize, because even with your explanation and the
Hcode you provided, you lost me. Is it possible for you to provide a URL
Hto the page in question so we can give it a look see? If the content is
Frestricted, strip it out and replace it with dummy text. Working with
Ethe actual page generally offers the best opportunity for someone to
provide helpful advice.

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
1http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380 

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
9http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455 
G______________________________________________________________________
+css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] 
3http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d 
DSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ 


.Inbound Mail Scanned by Mcafee Web Appliance.




/OutBound Mail Scanned by Mcafee Web Appliance.
]
l13:43:46.053 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.053 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:13:00 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C741F4@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

EI have the following style, which "works" in all browsers outside of
Netscape 4.76:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
  background-color: #FFE;
  border-top:  1px solid #EEE;
  border-left: 1px solid #EEE;
!  border-bottom: 1px solid #333;
!  border-right:  1px solid #777;
}

DNetscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:

  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;

KRemove them and all's well with the world, include either and it generates
errors and closes.

LAny way around this outside of creating a special style sheet for Netscape?

	Thanks -

george]
l13:43:46.053 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.055 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:21:40 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <46.381a3fa4.2bda9e74@aol.com>



LFirst I'd like to say this list has been an excellent resource to me, and I
 think everyone else will agree.


OBut I'd like to point out that lately list posters seem to be blindly posting 
to the
Llist. What I mean is, People might be forgetting that some email providers 
Olike the one I use (AOL) actually interpret HTML tags in email. Which means I 

don't see
Lthem in the context of the message, I see it as if I were reading the post 
through
a browser window.


EWhen you refer to [b] tag I see the rest of the message in bold text
Junless you use the closing [/b] tag. Oh, and try reading a message with a
heading tag in it.


MNow don't get me wrong, I don't mean to chastise the list, but this does get
>annoying. So please accept my apologies if I offended anyone.



Thank You
Curt
>From Michael_Landis at capgroup.com  Fri Apr 25 15:38:57 2003
CFrom: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:38:57 -0700
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
CMessage-ID: <OFCBF69188.A61F3A48-ON88256D13.004F8FB1@capgroup.com>


George Smyth wrote:

G> I have the following style, which "works" in all browsers outside of
> Netscape 4.76:

> .NavText {
>   font-size: 0.7em;
>   text-align: left;
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;
>   background-color: #FFE;
!>   border-top:  1px solid #EEE;
!>   border-left: 1px solid #EEE;
#>   border-bottom: 1px solid #333;
#>   border-right:  1px solid #777;
> }
>
F> Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
>
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;

INetscape 4 tends to act like the proverbial straw-carrying camel. We all
Gknow it is buggy to one extent or another, but each bug-tripping style
Kdeclaration seems to add a little bit more to its instability. If too many
Kbuggy declarations (that is, valid CSS that causes bugs in NS 4) appear in
Kthe CSS, it will hang, crash, and otherwise let you down when it hits that
final straw.

IIf you don't want to switch stylesheets, you might want to resort to the
HCiao NS4-hiding hack (http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CaioHack) to
Kremove enough styles to let it limp along. You may want to hide additional
;ones, so that you aren't right at the edge of instability.

KAnother alternative is to link a stylesheet that only contains styles that
Lare solid with NS 4, then import a second sheet that adds additional styles
for "good" browsers.

HTH,

MikeL]
l13:43:46.055 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.055 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 07:45:34 -0700
-Subject: [css-d] Hyperlink position in NN4.7
CMessage-ID: <OF642D1E9C.73522B52-ON88256D13.0050CA54@capgroup.com>


Dave Mead wrote:

G> My footer nav runs nicely along the bottom (shortened version here):

[snip]

?> It looks fine in IE but when viewed in NN4.7 the links stack
J> one-on-top-of-another instead of side-by-side!  I've created a separate
H> style sheet for NN and removed the padding from the CSS code and this
H> bunches them all up (hence the two &nbsp; between links).  Is there a
+> way around this or is this the best fix.

GAs you have discovered, adding padding or margins to an inline element
Hconverts it to a block element in NS 4. I haven't seen a workaround for
this.

Sorry for the bad news! :-)

MikeL]
l13:43:46.055 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.056 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:44:47 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD7@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

George Smyth wrote:
F> Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
>=20
>   width: auto;
>   padding: 2px;
>=20
@> Remove them and all's well with the world, include either and
"> it generates errors and closes.

HYou can remove "width: auto" safely (unless a width is being inherited)
)and/or you can use Caio's Hack, like so:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
/*/*/
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
/**/
  background-color: #FFE;
  border:  1px solid #EEE;
  border-bottom-color: #333;
  border-right-color: :#777;
}

5(Note: I just shortened your border styles slightly)

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
3From ken at kpmartin.com  Fri Apr 25 16:09:05 2003
'From: ken at kpmartin.com (Ken Martin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:09:05 -0500
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
@Message-ID: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>

FI checked the wiki and didn't see anything, though I suspect this is 
probably frequently asked.

HDoes PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if 
DI need to use it in tandem with other declarations or if it simply 
doesn't work.

TIA

Ken Martin]
l13:43:46.056 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
}13:43:46.056 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: jgay at tla.com (Jim Gay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:17:07 -0400
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
,In-Reply-To: <46.381a3fa4.2bda9e74@aol.com>
)Message-ID: <BACEC9B3.6927%jgay@tla.com>

P> But I'd like to point out that lately list posters seem to be blindly posting
	> to the
M> list. What I mean is, People might be forgetting that some email providers
P> like the one I use (AOL) actually interpret HTML tags in email. Which means I
> don't see
M> them in the context of the message, I see it as if I were reading the post

> through
> a browser window.

HI'm new here, but looking at the policies, although it says no html/rtf
Kemail, I don't think that excludes any html code at all. I think its a bit
Lmuch to ask a list about code of a few hundred people to stop writing about
their code in some context.
Jperhaps the problem is in the AOL client rendering html when it shouldn't
4be? (are you set to receive Plain or MIME content?)

please correct me if I'm wrong
Jperhaps I need more clarity on the policy. should I exclude all html when
I'm next tempted to post?

-jim]
l13:43:46.056 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.056 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:30:24 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
7Message-ID: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

MDoes anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can change
the list-item-marker's color?

JI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

Anyone?

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
]
l13:43:46.056 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.057 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Craig.Saila at bgminteractive.com (Saila, Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:31:20 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
UMessage-ID: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>

Ken Martin wrote:
I> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

B(Apologies if someone has answered this, my email is slow lately)

ANo support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
,<http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
&<http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

--=20
Cheers,

Craig Saila
+------------------------------------------
(craig@saila.com : http://www.saila.com/
+------------------------------------------
>From Dwayne.Conyers at veridian.com  Fri Apr 25 16:41:46 2003
7From: Dwayne.Conyers at veridian.com (Conyers, Dwayne)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:41:46 -0400
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
FMessage-ID: <E4C14A1BFBDD144490EAF53424176D6D11CF46@FCVAMAIL.mrj.com>

HI think enclosing code in <pre></pre> tags should alleviate that issue.

--
Dwacon
www.dwacon.com
<From gassinaumasis at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 25 16:46:49 2003
5From: gassinaumasis at hotmail.com (Peter-Paul Koch)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:46:49 +0000
'Subject: [css-d] Netscape 4.76 Bombing
6Message-ID: <Sea2-F69qVDokSUIwMw0000d806@hotmail.com>

H> > Netscape 4.76 actually bombs and closes because of these two lines:
> >
> >   width: auto;
> >   padding: 2px;
> >
B> > Remove them and all's well with the world, include either and
$> > it generates errors and closes.
>
I>You can remove "width: auto" safely (unless a width is being inherited)
*>and/or you can use Caio's Hack, like so:

LWhile that is certainly true, my guess is that the border declarations are 
Iactually the problem. NN4 has a long and nasty history of problems with 
	borders.

7Try your original style sheet, but change the borders:

.NavText {
  font-size: 0.7em;
  text-align: left;
  width: auto;
  padding: 2px;
  background-color: #FFE;
  border: 1px solid #EEE;
  border-bottom-color: #333;
  border-right-color:  #777;
}

GIn a few similar cases I found that using the shorthand notations for 
L'border-left', 'border-right' etc. (though not for 'border' itself) causes 
NN4 problems.

?But maybe I'm wrong and this is an entirely different problem.

3--------------------------------------------------
ppk, freelance web developer
2Interaction, copywriting, JavaScript, integration
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/
JColumn "Keep it Simple": http://www.digital-web.com/columns/keepitsimple/
3--------------------------------------------------


B_________________________________________________________________
;MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
*http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus]
l13:43:46.057 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.058 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:47:11 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
,Message-ID: <199.194e6936.2bdab27f@aol.com>

NIn a message dated 4/25/2003 11:17:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, jgay@tla.com 
writes:


5>be? (are you set to receive Plain or MIME content?)


DI only use AOL for a connection to the Internet and to receive mail
Aso I really don't no how to set that, or even if I can with AOL.

 >please correct me if I'm wrong
K>perhaps I need more clarity on the policy. should I exclude all html when
>I'm next tempted to post?

HNo, the tags that effect my mail are heading, bold, italics, typewriter
Ktype, paragraphs, break, and such that refer specifically to font control.

IUL, li, span, div, and others that refer to structure and css don't get 

rendered.
(I see the tag itself, not it's effects.

JBy the way, I didn't type the subject line. My brother did. I don't write
Ksubjects until I ready to send the mail. He tried to replicate the subject
Elines of the css mail program and didnt know it was do automatically
( thought it was funny)

Curt
7From gary at star-chaser.com  Fri Apr 25 17:01:57 2003
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:01:57 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
AIn-Reply-To: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>
@References: <DAF02F0E-772F-11D7-A06D-0030656A2A4A@kpmartin.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA95BF5.4040005@star-chaser.com>

Ken Martin wrote:
H> I checked the wiki and didn't see anything, though I suspect this is 
> probably frequently asked.
> 
L> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if I 
L> need to use it in tandem with other declarations or if it simply doesn't 
> work.
> 

HIt only supports position:fixed on backgrounds. You can get it to work 
in two ways.

Javascript
*http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html

conditional comments
"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

HTH
Gary

-- 
Gary Bland
StarChaser Web Architecture
http://www.star-chaser.com
 Building Tomorrow's World Today

The Nemesis Project
http://nemesis1.f2o.org
One Stop CSS]
l13:43:46.058 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.058 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:04:44 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
6Message-ID: <556DFCA4.3DC753BE.009CE500@netscape.net>

("Jason Estes" <ckestes@bewb.org> wrote:

O>Does anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can change
>the list-item-marker's color?

WHi Jason - Did you try setting the color for the unordered list and/or the list items?
ul, li {color: #800080}

/My quick test worked on IE6, Moz and Op7 WinXP

HTH,

~holly

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
3From dmead at optiem.com  Fri Apr 25 17:02:56 2003
'From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:02:56 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E928E@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

FI achieved the effect I think you're after by calling the marker as a
graphic in my CSS file:=20

*   list-style-image: url(images/dot.gif);

Hope this helps.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
,From: Jason Estes [mailto:ckestes@bewb.org]
&Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:30 AM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color


FDoes anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can
change
the list-item-marker's color?

DI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my
text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

Anyone?

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
<From asparber at projectseven.com  Fri Apr 25 17:09:03 2003
0From: asparber at projectseven.com (Al Sparber)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:09:03 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
3Message-ID: <004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL>


Here're a couple more:
Ehttp://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
problematic on Mac)

Bhttp://www.flevooware.nl/dreamweaver/#PersistentLayers (scripted)

Al Sparber
?http://www.projectseven.com - Extensions | DW FAQs | Tutorials
9Co-Author: Dreamweaver MX: Building on Solid Foundations



From: "Saila, Craig"

Ken Martin wrote:
I> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

B(Apologies if someone has answered this, my email is slow lately)

ANo support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
,<http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
&<http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

]
l13:43:46.059 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.059 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Jason.Gennaro at jus.gov.on.ca (Gennaro, Jason (JUS))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:09:52 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
DMessage-ID: <419FB3B69D66D311AC120008C79138C0169906BD@JUS00AEX0315>


7On Friday, April 25, 2003 11:30 AM, Jason Estes wrote:

	<sniped>

JI'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
9but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.


4Add the color to the ul and that should work, i.e.:

ul { color: blue }

,Worked for me in Moz 1.3 and IE 5.5 on W.2K

Jason
	
/From jgay at tla.com  Fri Apr 25 17:16:02 2003
 From: jgay at tla.com (Jim Gay)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:16:02 -0400
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
8In-Reply-To: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
)Message-ID: <BACED782.692F%jgay@tla.com>

O> Does anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you can change
 > the list-item-marker's color?
> 
L> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
;> but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
> 

2http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#lists

Iyou can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
Jcorresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image]
l13:43:46.059 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.060 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:16:25 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
6Message-ID: <0CC778E0.33459481.009CE500@netscape.net>

%Ken Martin <ken@kpmartin.com> wrote:

$>Does PC IE support position:fixed?

8"Saila, Craig" <Craig.Saila@bgminteractive.com> wrote: 

B>No support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
-><http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
'><http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

�Hi Ken - In addition to Craig's JavaScript suggestions there is a way to emulate position: fixed for IE. It's been called the Bednarz hack or the Ghost hack. See -
"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

HTH,

~holly 

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Fri Apr 25 17:30:11 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:30:11 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
)References: <BACED782.692F%jgay@tla.com>
7Message-ID: <006e01c30b47$f1ed2520$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

K> you can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
K> corresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image
> 

=Technically I guess you could if you did something like this

B<li style="color:red"><span style="color:#000;">sdaf </span></li>

1then you end up with red bullets and black text.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org 
]
l13:43:46.060 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.060 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:18:54 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
8In-Reply-To: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
7References: <003b01c30b3f$97792510$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
4Message-ID: <116106318348.20030425111854@attbi.com>

6Jason wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 10:30:24 AM:

G> Does anyone know, I didn't see it in the CSS spec, if or how you can
'> change the list-item-marker's color?

F> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my
A> text, but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.

#If you're using generated content:

    li:before{color:#000}

DOtherwise I'd need to check. It may be unspecified, or it may match
Dthe list-item's color. I don't think there's a special way of doing
it, though.

-- 
John Lewis]
l13:43:46.060 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.061 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:35:15 -0700 (PDT)
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
AIn-Reply-To: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
LMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304250930390.2597-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

*On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Gavin Kistner wrote:

F> Forgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the
>> browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
2> http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

HThe 'default' value is pretty loose, such that actually pretty much all
the renderings are correct.

EHowever, having said that, the intention of the Mozilla guys is that
F'default' use the font's specified default line height, which I don't
Fthink works correctly on Mac (I know it doesn't work exactly right on

Windows).

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
3From cs03 at combonet.se  Fri Apr 25 17:35:51 2003
(From: cs03 at combonet.se (Christina S)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:35:51 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
VIn-Reply-To: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
.Message-ID: <BACF3018.53804%cs03@combonet.se>

JOn 03-04-25 17.31, "Saila, Craig" <Craig.Saila@bgminteractive.com> wrote:

> Ken Martin wrote:
J>> Does PC IE support position:fixed? It appears not to. I'm wondering if

C> No support yet, although there are a couple of JavaScript fixes:
.> <http://doxdesk.com/software/js/fixed.html>
(> <http://www.mark.ac/help/sticky.html>

 Or with a nice little css-hack:
$<http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/>
Works as a charm.

DI think it is linked somewhere from the css-wiki? (or it should be)
 
/Christina]
l13:43:46.061 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.061 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:41:51 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
7In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>
6References: <Sea2-F41cfJiY9ZNMji0000cd1e@hotmail.com>
3Message-ID: <p05210607bacf10e7b3c7@[152.3.174.98]>

>>Interesting!
I>>Especially that Safari has so many users already (which, I agree, will
#>>dramatically increase later on).
>
B>My Safari stats are especially unreliable because I posted some 
C>Safari-related material pretty soon after the beta was released. 
E>Naturally geeky Safari users first take a look at sites discussing 
>their beloved browser.
>
E>For the non-geeky sites I keep track of the score is between 2 and 
=>10 % of all Mac users (and I find that 10% strangely high).

GI work in academia with folks who are geeky, but not necessarily in a 
Gweb browser sort of way, but who are mostly Mac users.  Among the Mac 
Dpeople, a very large majority use IE 5 - about 72%, at last count. 
DThese are about evenly divided between 5.2+ on OSX and all others. 
>The next highest is NN4, at a scary 9%.  Safari has recently 
@overtaken gecko-based, with some early adopters giving me a 7% 
Dreading, while all geckos (NN6, NN7, all Mozillas and derivatives) 
=are another 6%.  IE4 has just 1%, and all others (including 
Cunidentified) account for the rest.  I have had exactly one Opera 
	visitor.

FAll this is after subtracting my own hits in development and all the 
AWindows people, including the hackers trying to get root.exe or 
Bcmd.exe to do something on my Mac server.  (Which always sort of 
makes me chuckle.)

-- 

-Adam Kuehn
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Fri Apr 25 17:57:25 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 11:57:25 -0500
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
DReferences: <419FB3B69D66D311AC120008C79138C0169906BD@JUS00AEX0315>
7Message-ID: <008c01c30b4b$bfe56340$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of my text,
;> but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
>
>
6> Add the color to the ul and that should work, i.e.:
>
> ul { color: blue }
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> Supported by evolt

KThanks for all the response, I got it from Holly first so I'll credit her,
/but really it was just my own stupid overlook.

KAnd to respond to this last one, technically the only reason that works is
Kcause the [li] inherits the color, but you can control the li individually
by adding the color to the li


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
1.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
]
l13:43:46.062 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.062 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 09:55:11 -0700
#Subject: [css-d] List-marker color
CMessage-ID: <OF2A66C6B4.16E163EC-ON88256D13.005C9BE6@capgroup.com>


Jim Gay wrote:

> Jason Estes wrote:
>
F> > Does anyone know, I didn't see it in  the CSS spec, if or how you
-> > can change the list-item-marker's color?
> >
E> > I'd like the color of the markers to be the same as the color of
F> > my text, but I didn't see any reference to color in the CSS spec.
> >
>
4> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#lists
>
K> you can't change the color of the marker alone (e.g. separately from its
K> corresponding line), but you can change its image using list-style-image

JHate to say it, but it sounds like the easiest (albeit messier) way to do
Jit is to span/div content inside of the li tags to override the colors...

MikeL]
l13:43:46.062 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.062 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:24:28 EDT
3Subject: [css-d] [ccc-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <ae.3e6bab30.2bdac94c@aol.com>

@In a message dated 4/25/2003 1:23:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
$Dwayne.Conyers@veridian.com writes:


> 
> 
8> I think enclosing code in tags should alleviate that 
	> issue.
> 
> --
	> Dwacon
> www.dwacon.com
> ]
l13:43:46.062 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.062 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:13:51 -0500
*Subject: [css-d] line-height calculations
@References: <CD25D628-76DD-11D7-BF91-000A959CF5AC@refinery.com>
A	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304250930390.2597-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
2Message-ID: <009e01c30b56$6caf59f0$6401a8c0@yoda>

,> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Gavin Kistner wrote:
>
H> > Forgive me if this is a FAQ. Can someone explain to me which of the
@> > browsers is 'right' from the screenshots on this test page:
4> > http://phrogz.net/tmp/lineheighttest/index.html

OAs you've learned, the default line-height is determined by the UA with the W3
Irecommendation that it be between a factor of 1 to 1.2 of the font-size.

HTo override the default UA treatment, you can simply set your preferred
Pline-height in the ICB of the document and let the cascade naturally adjust. Be
Laware though, that you should set line-heights as a factor rather than in a
specific unit. For example,

html, body {
Kfont-size: 16px /*I'm not promoting fixed sizes, just making an example.*/
line-height: 18px;
}

Nwill be problematic when your long unstylyed <h1> wraps - effectively doing a
Qfont-size of about 2x the default (32px) but cascading the 18px line-height. The
Bwrapped lines are going to overlap. However, if you use a factor,

html, body {
Kfont-size: 16px /*I'm not promoting fixed sizes, just making an example.*/
line-height: 1.2;
}

Kthe line-height will cascade appropriately for in each descendent element.

"So, if on your test page, you use

.col1 p {line-height:1;}
.col2 p {line-height:1.1;}
.col3 p {line-height:1.2;}

,you'll find much better x-browser behavior.

Lonnie]
l13:43:46.063 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.063 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: marc.richards at verizon.net (Marc Richards)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:53:44 -0400
@Subject: [css-d] Mozilla isn't pulling css pages from the cache
MIn-Reply-To: <20030403112504.PVKS1042.mta018.verizon.net@acornparenting.org>
4Message-ID: <000201c30b5b$ff8658f0$0100000a@diablo>

Hi,

@I have been doing some testing recently that involved careful =
examination of
Imy http headers. I have noticed that Mozilla ALWAYS gets a fresh copy of
Eexternal CSS pages (both imported and linked) when navigating thru =
various
Fweb pages (zeldman.com, centricle.com, my own internal site).  This =
	seems to
Hgo against one of the major benefits of CSS (less bandwidth).  I tested
Iusing Internet Explorer 6 and it caches the pages just fine. Has any one
Delse noticed this?  I am using Mozilla 1.3 on windows XP with the =
default
cache settings.

Marc=20
]
l13:43:46.063 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.064 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: work at cookiecrook.com (James Craig)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:28:00 -0500
Subject: [css-d] 
G Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?)
7In-Reply-To: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
6References: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
/Message-ID: <3EA98C40.3000802@cookiecrook.com>

Peter-Paul Koch wrote:
> 
I> Any Mac-friendly website must be checked at the very least in IE5 and 

> Safari.

HSpeaking of which, the meetup.com website styles dreadfully in Safari, 
Hso it kind of throws an ironic wrench at the web standards meetup idea 
,doesn't it? http://webstandards.meetup.com/

GAlso, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is 
Dcancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so 
Iprematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas and 
Gstill want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll 
Jarrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may be 
 interested in an Austin meetup.

Cheers,
James Craig

-- 
http://www.cookiecrook.com/]
l13:43:46.064 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.064 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 15:17:57 -0500
FSubject: [css-d]  Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats for
	browsers on Mac?)
6References: <Sea2-F383XV3ZUCDPEK0000cce5@hotmail.com>
$	<3EA98C40.3000802@cookiecrook.com>
7Message-ID: <00e301c30b67$c3454660$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

> 
I> Also, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is 
F> cancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so 
K> prematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas and 
I> still want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll 
L> arrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may be 
"> interested in an Austin meetup.
> 

> Cheers,
> James Craig


LAt least you have people in Austin signed up for the webstandards.meetup.  

8I am the only person in Fort Worth signed up for it. :(

	OH well!


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org 
]
l13:43:46.064 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.064 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:31:57 -0400
'Subject: [css-d]  Web Standards Meetup
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A28FECC@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>

BI came across this on Mr Craig's web site and decided to join the
8Cleveland one only to see the next day it cancelled :-(

6Maybe the web developers one will be better attended.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
,From: Jason Estes [mailto:ckestes@bewb.org]
%Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 4:18 PM
To: James Craig; 'CSS-discuss'
ESubject: Re: [css-d] Web Standards Meetup and Safari (Was: OT: Stats
forbrowsers on Mac?)


>=20
K> Also, not enough people in Austin voted for a venue so our meeting is=20
H> cancelled this month. :( I wonder why they decided to cancel is so=20
F> prematurely (a week before). Even so, if you are near Austin, Texas
and=20
K> still want to meet up, email me at djcookiecrook@hotmail.com and I'll=20
H> arrange something. Feel free to forward this to other people that may
be=20
"> interested in an Austin meetup.
>=20

> Cheers,
> James Craig


5At least you have people in Austin signed up for the
webstandards.meetup. =20

8I am the only person in Fort Worth signed up for it. :(

	OH well!


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org=20


G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
4From daniel at ionize.net  Fri Apr 25 22:06:01 2003
)From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:06:01 -0500
0Subject: [css-d] Help w/ IE Mac disappearing ID
>Message-ID: <B8088CA6-7761-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

Hi,

FI have been busy on a project that is almost done, but I find myself 
+deeply in need of some expertise and help.

HI'm trying to finish up a site now at: http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/

One issue remains, however:

HIn IE4, (and IE5) on the Mac (OS 9), I'm getting reports that the logo 
Iin the top left is not appearing. Unfortunately, I don't have access to 
Gan OS 9 box to test. (I tried installing it, but my monitor-- yes, my 
Gmonitor-- prevented me from doing so). In my copy of IE5 Mac on OS X, 
it renders correctly.

ICan someone w/ IE 4 or IE 5 running under OS 9 confirm that the logo is 
=not appearing? Does anyone know why this would be happening?

6The xhtml/css validates, but it *is* a tabled design.


The goods:

6default style sheet (setting #logo to display: none):
4http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/default.css
E	- I *did* try removing the link to this stylesheet and the problem 
	persists
.global style sheet that sets styles for #logo
3http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/global.css
H	- This stylesheet is linked to using imports in the second stylesheet 
Flinked (import.css). I know that the IEs in question are getting the 
Gglobal stylesheet, however, because other styles from it are rendered 
correctly.

thanks,
	-daniel]
l13:43:46.064 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.064 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 16:21:42 -0500
0Subject: [css-d] Help w/ IE Mac disappearing ID
?In-Reply-To: <B8088CA6-7761-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>
>Message-ID: <E9393B98-7763-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

!Sorry, I left out the directory:

> The goods:
>
6> http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/default.css

<http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/_library/styles/default.css

5> http://test.chc2003.com/_library/styles/global.css

<http://test.chc2003.com/CHC2003/_library/styles/global.css]
l13:43:46.064 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: valleyofmalls at yahoo.com (David Norris)
,Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:31:36 -0700 (PDT)
7Subject: [css-d] image float right issues in IE5.5 win
AMessage-ID: <20030425213136.54351.qmail@web21105.mail.yahoo.com>

�I have sliced up an image and floated it right inside a table using the method here http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/raggedfloat/demo.html I'm using the style code as follows on my slices:img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 0 0 0;} (I have enough white space on the sliced images that I don't need to add any margin for the text wrap) Looks fine it seems everywhere except IE5.5 windows, not sure about mac. In IE 5.5 there's some space between the images and the right edge of the table so it won't meet up with the edge. But if I add some negative px or em to the right margin it looks fine in IE 5.5, the image goes flush to the edge. example: img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -3px 0 0;} img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -1em 0 0;}  Is there an IE 5.5 hack or something for this?  


"---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
fThe New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.From holnkids at netscape.net  Fri Apr 25 23:26:08 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:26:08 -0400
7Subject: [css-d] image float right issues in IE5.5 win
6Message-ID: <0DC0F06E.2A589CC0.009CE500@netscape.net>

.David Norris <valleyofmalls@yahoo.com> wrote:

�>I have sliced up an image and floated it right inside a table using the method here http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/raggedfloat/demo.html I'm using the style code as follows on my slices:img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 0 0 0;} (I have enough white space on the sliced images that I don't need to add any margin for the text wrap) Looks fine it seems everywhere except IE5.5 windows, not sure about mac. In IE 5.5 there's some space between the images and the right edge of the table so it won't meet up with the edge. But if I add some negative px or em to the right margin it looks fine in IE 5.5, the image goes flush to the edge. example: img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -3px 0 0;} img.slices {float: right; clear: right; margin: 0 -1em 0 0;}  Is there an IE 5.5 hack or something for this? 

�Hi David - If you know it is only IE5.5 (and not IE6 also) that is doing this, you can use the Tan hack [1] to feed the negative right margin to IE5.5 which would look like this -

img.slices {
    float: right; 
    clear: right; 
8    margin: 0; /* Margin settings for most browsers */ 
    }

B* html img.slices { /*Only IE browsers see this (including Mac)*/
2    margin-right: -3px; /* Set value for IE5.5 */
<    ma\rgin-right: 0; /* Reset value for IE6 and IE5-Mac */
    }

�Otherwise (if IE6 needs the negative margin as well), try setting the "incorrect" value in the regular selector and use the child selector to reset it for the other browsers -

img.slices {
    float: right; 
    clear: right; 
    margin: 0 -3px 0 0; 
    }

)html>body img.slices {margin-right: 0; }

HTH,

~holly

[1] See: "A Modified SBMH" -
7     http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BoxModelHack

C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
9From fortuneb at bellsouth.net  Fri Apr 25 23:38:11 2003
5From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:38:11 -0400
Subject: [css-d] site check
AReferences: <002101c30a3e$21449a20$97a4d742@charterpipeline.net>
*	<009e01c30a40$9dec4e40$73163d0a@sdig.fr>
6Message-ID: <00a801c30b7b$5a454d40$6001a8c0@felwithe>

Bnot diggin the techno on the home page. cool music, but annoying.


> ----- Original Message -----
%> From: "Ian Adams" <icadams@pe.net>
>
L> I am updating the code for my site to a standards compliant xhtml/css and
M> cannot get the style to view in Netscape 7.  The syle views fine in IE and
J> the site validates every way I can think of to test it.  The address is
> http://www.microtech.com
>
>]
l13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:40:10 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
6Message-ID: <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>

2can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
4From gleemax at attbi.com  Fri Apr 25 23:49:00 2003
(From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 17:49:00 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7In-Reply-To: <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
References: 
J <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+ <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
4Message-ID: <151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>

6Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:

4> can you have more then one media="all" on a page?

BYes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
>media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,

G<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" media="all">
E<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">

-- 
John Lewis]
l13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: epersonae at mail.com (Elaine Nelson)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:03:30 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] site check - esp. on Mac?
1Message-ID: <20030425230331.9939.qmail@mail.com>

(http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/test/pioneer/
*(links don't work, this is only a mockup)

�I've checked it on Moz 1.2.1, IE 6, Netscape 4.something and Opera 6 (all win2K), and am reasonably satisfied with the results. It's been validated all round, and passed. :)  

�Minimal style is fed to old browsers, with additional stuff for the more modern crowd.  I decided to go for the XML prolog to force IE6 into non-strict mode so I could keep using body>#whatever selectors rather than some other hack...I don't know if this causes problems elsewhere....

MA check from Mac users would be especially helpful!  Thanks for your time...

Elaine Nelson
 work: http://www.pierce.ctc.edu
"notWork: http://www.epersonae.com

-- 
;__________________________________________________________
:Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
 http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup]
l13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: daniel at ionize.net (danielEthan)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:10:17 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] site check - esp. on Mac?
2In-Reply-To: <20030425230331.9939.qmail@mail.com>
>Message-ID: <1474BED5-7773-11D7-9D27-000393BBEACE@ionize.net>

HOn Friday, Apr 25, 2003, at 18:03 America/Chicago, Elaine Nelson wrote:

*> http://www.pierce.ctc.edu/test/pioneer/
,> (links don't work, this is only a mockup)


Looking Good Mac Side:

[OS X]

Moz
IE 5.2
Safari]
l13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:56:20 -0400
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
6Message-ID: <46F927D0.13623D7A.009CE500@netscape.net>

css-discuss@plumlee.org wrote:

)>At 01:00 AM 4/25/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>
,> >>If I try to place an image in the right
N> >>hand column with a declared width of 145px, it does not work in IE6.  IE
9> >>refuses to display the content in that third column.

$>http://wgi.org/2003/indexmac2.php 

`Hi Scott - I played around some more with your example and found a few more interesting things.

�It seems putting a top border on the div.column-three-content will kill the problem without using the float, as long as the image is wrapped inside something else. You could put it in another div, or a paragraph, either one seemed to work. 

�What I did was give the div.column-three-content a {border-top: 1px solid #6666ff;} which is the same color as the background of the column. I then gave each of the other div.column-xxx-content a top border the same color as their backgrounds, and 1px high to balance things between the columns. This works great in the example you provided.

�Unfortunately, what you will find if you put content in the middle div is that the image gets pushed below the bottom of the content level of the middle div, though it still does display. 

�Another thing I tried which IE6 is okay with but Moz and Op aren't is to give the image a margin property that looks like img {margin: 0 -3px;} IE6 happily centers the image and displays it, too. Unfortunately, Moz and Op drag the thing to the left 3px. You can use a child selector to reset the margin value for the other browsers - html>body img {margin: 0;}

�I'm afraid this is going to be a case of pick your hack. The float one isn't that bad, especially if the image is going to take up the entire width of that right side div and since you said it isn't causing problems for Moz and Op7.  

�So after all this, my suggestion is to go with the float. It seems the easiest way to deal with the various problems that are encountered. Be aware that if you need to put content in the right div *before* the image, the image will disappear again, even with the float. This time it's hiding behind the background, so add [img] to the selector that has the {p\osition: relative;} property. If you don't want a background on the right div, you won't need the pos:rel.

+In brief, my suggestion looks like this - 

.box-wrap, .columns-float, 
.column-one, .column-two, 
.h2, .column-three, img {p\osition: relative;}

img { float: left;}

K>I appreciate the advice.  I think I might have a "immovable object meets 
?>the irresistible force" complex about this problem right now.

�I'm not sure which one of those is you and which is IE6, but I do agree this is a frustrating problem, and one that is going to require the application of a(nother) hack to solve. 

+Not sure I was much help this time, sorry,

~holly


C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
7From ehmer at pacific.net.au  Sat Apr 26 06:00:43 2003
5From: ehmer at pacific.net.au (David & Angela Ehmer)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:00:43 +1000
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem
3Message-ID: <005301c30bb0$cca941e0$5bf88fcb@ehmer>

HI have developed a horizontal menu system which works okay except that;

GExtra space appears below the horizontal menu, both when the dropdowns
Jappear and when they don't.  Not sure where this is coming from or how to
Ieliminate it. Think it may be related to the cumulative space the 3 drop
Kdowns take up.  Also the menus appear a bit touchy and disappear sometimes
3when they shouldn't (probably Javascript problem!)

MNote, I have used relative positioning as I want the page to be centred on a
$screen with resolution of 1024x768.

%Appreciate any suggestions.  See URL

,http://www.netnoise.com.au/acpchn/index.php

David]
l13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: mark.r.stevens at attbi.com (markinoregon)
&Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 22:20:19 -0700
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem
4In-Reply-To: <005301c30bb0$cca941e0$5bf88fcb@ehmer>
DMessage-ID: <LFEDIOOHKCLEFGIHPKCAGEGICAAA.mark.r.stevens@attbi.com>


AYeah, the menu's are touchy here on XP/IE6 Broadband connection,
Ealso i noticed your australian map, on the right side of the header,
#is a few pixels off from the text.
-----Original Message-----
*From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org
H[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org]On Behalf Of David & Angela
Ehmer
&Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 10:01 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
GSubject: [css-d] Horizontal dropdown menu relative positioning problem


HI have developed a horizontal menu system which works okay except that;

GExtra space appears below the horizontal menu, both when the dropdowns
Jappear and when they don't.  Not sure where this is coming from or how to
Ieliminate it. Think it may be related to the cumulative space the 3 drop
Kdowns take up.  Also the menus appear a bit touchy and disappear sometimes
3when they shouldn't (probably Javascript problem!)

MNote, I have used relative positioning as I want the page to be centred on a
$screen with resolution of 1024x768.

%Appreciate any suggestions.  See URL

,http://www.netnoise.com.au/acpchn/index.php

David

G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
DSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/]
l13:43:46.065 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:51:53 +0200
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C2348@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

H> I work in academia with folks who are geeky, but not necessarily in a
H> web browser sort of way, but who are mostly Mac users.  Among the Mac
E> people, a very large majority use IE 5 - about 72%, at last count.
E> These are about evenly divided between 5.2+ on OSX and all others.
?> The next highest is NN4, at a scary 9%.  Safari has recently
A> overtaken gecko-based, with some early adopters giving me a 7%
E> reading, while all geckos (NN6, NN7, all Mozillas and derivatives)
>> are another 6%.  IE4 has just 1%, and all others (including
F> unidentified) account for the rest.  I have had exactly one Opera =
	visitor.

=20
Thanks Adam,
=20
*I find this very interesting information!
&And yes, 9% with NS4 is really scary!
=20
=20
/Robert
=20
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Sat Apr 26 12:48:09 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:48:09 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] CSS-only line break (a tip)
3In-Reply-To: <1051268977.6929@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <1051357689.16411@tweek.sebduggan.com>



<>> I would also like to offer one further suggestion, using
C>> whitespace:pre, which seems even simpler to me: simply stick in
<>> the line breaks where you want them, as in this example:
> 
O> Very nice Steve - this seems to be the most elegant solution so far - and it
4> seems to work in every browser I've thrown it at!
> 
*> I'll be changing my own code to this...

Final word on this...

GI tested my page on a friend's Linux box, on Konqueror. Unfortunately,
LKonqueror currently only supports white-space:pre for PRE and XMP elements.
LHowever, even the earlier beta of Safari handles it correctly, so it should
1find its way in to the KHTML source fairly soon.

F(Also, it wasn't a disastrous mis-rendering - and Konqueror users are
6probably a very small minority of my site's traffic).


Seb
]
l13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:24:43 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] Quick thank you
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426112216.00ba3028@cbiweb.com>

MJust wanted to say thanks to those who gave me suggestions the other day on 
Imaking lists with mixed styles. I haven't been able to try them out yet 
Lbecause I got distracted with another project. But I will let you know how 
$it works out when I get back to it.

Thanks!

Joel]
l13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Rick_Hurst?=)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:21:10 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
EMessage-ID: <mailman.163.1051374077.541.css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>

Nfor some reason this layout is missing the left border when displayed in IE5=
N mac=2E The odd thing is that the space has been left for the border, but no=
> colour is showing=2E Any ideas why, or how I might fix it=3F

7http://www=2Ehypothecate=2Eco=2Euk/css=5Ftest/v8=2Ehtm

]
l13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: steven at sjknet.com (Steven Kallstrom)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:47:17 -0500
(Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
2Message-ID: <000e01c30c13$829c7730$6401a8c0@MAIN>

CSS Experts,

:	I am working on a layout where I have a large graphic as
Fbackground, and menu.  I don't want to reload that since it is static
Dthroughout, so I decided to just make it so that I would reload the
content area.

%http://12.221.231.252/test/test.html

F1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
HCSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
Hto do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
4in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?

F2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
Iusing an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the content inside
Hthe div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
Ffile...  I wish they had something like <div src="page"> sort of like
Aiframes, but you are simply change what is inbetween the divs...

what do you think?

Thanks a ton,

Steven J. Kallstrom
]
l13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:50:21 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>

KIf this has been asked recently, I apologize for the repeat. Feel free to 
%direct me to the thread if you like.

JI've been doing some testing with ems and %'s. I like the versatility of 
Iboth, but which is better in today's browser compatibility climate? I'm 
Hconcerned mostly about consistent results while avoiding the tiny text 
Lsyndrome that can occur on a Mac. (I don't have a Mac, so all my design is 
PC oriented.)

LMy main goal is to design with less-than-default-size text, but still give 
0users the ability to change it if they want to.

TIA,

Joel]
l13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: fortuneb at bellsouth.net (Brandy (mediadiva))
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:55:04 -0400
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+	<00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
)	<151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>
6Message-ID: <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>

#can you have more then one import?


----- Original Message ----- 
'From: "John Lewis" <gleemax@attbi.com>
"To: <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
%Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 6:49 PM
-Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import


8> Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:
> 
6> > can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
> 
D> Yes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
@> media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,
> 
I> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" media="all">
G> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">
> 
> -- 
> John Lewis
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
;From matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com  Sat Apr 26 19:52:00 2003
2From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:52:00 +0100
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
7Message-ID: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>

'http://blogstreetjournal.com/index.php

MWorks fine in all win browsers I've been able to download, no Mac, and Linux
Ktill I get a spare day, so if any one with either of these platforms could
'check it for me, I'd be most grateful.

Matt

-- 

Khttp://unitedheroes.net/blogs/matt/ - usually updated, occasionally funny,
sometimes even informative!]
l13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:28 +0100
1Subject: FW:RE:  [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7Message-ID: <000d01c30c25$6ac11d70$0100007f@localhost>

Not sent to the list.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:48 PM
To: 'Brandy (mediadiva)'
-Subject: RE: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import


I don't think so . . .

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
<}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of 
}Brandy (mediadiva)
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 6:55 PM
-}To: John Lewis; css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
.}Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
}
}
$}can you have more then one import?
}
}
}----- Original Message ----- 
(}From: "John Lewis" <gleemax@attbi.com>
#}To: <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
&}Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 6:49 PM
.}Subject: Re: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
}
}
9}> Brandy wrote on Friday, April 25, 2003 at 5:40:10 PM:
}> 
7}> > can you have more then one media="all" on a page?
}> 
E}> Yes. It simply means that each style sheet will be applied in all
A}> media (screen, handheld, projection, and so on). For example,
}> 
>}> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="/global.css" 
}media="all">
H}> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="local.css" media="all">
}> 
}> -- 
}> John Lewis
}> 
}> 
H}______________________________________________________________________
-}> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
5}> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
F}> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}
]
l13:43:46.066 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.067 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:57 +0100
%Subject: FW: [css-d] ems or percent?
7Message-ID: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>

Damn outlook.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:45 PM
To: 'Joel Young'
%Subject: RE: [css-d] ems or percent?


Joel,

HThe way I've found to use these (and avoid the broken box model as much
;as possible) it to decale the follwing in you style sheet:

body {
	font-size: 100%;
}

P (or your divs or whatever) {
	font-size: 0.8em;
	line-height: 1.166667em;
}

DThis give you the equivalent of 12px font sizing, and a 17.5px line
height.

CThe body { font-size: 100%; } should avoid it inheriting, as would
Eexplicitly declaring all tags you use with { font-size:0.8em; } This
Fworks in every windows browser that I've been able to find a download
?for, though I don't own to a mac, so I don't know about those.

"For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.

Matt

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
F}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Joel Young
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 6:50 PM
!}To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
"}Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
}
}
?}If this has been asked recently, I apologize for the repeat. 
}Feel free to 
&}direct me to the thread if you like.
}
<}I've been doing some testing with ems and %'s. I like the 
}versatility of 
=}both, but which is better in today's browser compatibility 
}climate? I'm 
I}concerned mostly about consistent results while avoiding the tiny text 
@}syndrome that can occur on a Mac. (I don't have a Mac, so all 
}my design is 
}PC oriented.)
}
>}My main goal is to design with less-than-default-size text, 
}but still give 
1}users the ability to change it if they want to.
}
}TIA,
}
}Joel
}
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}
]
l13:43:46.067 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.067 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:54:58 -0500
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
7In-Reply-To: <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>
References: 
J <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
+ <00f401c30b7b$a108b050$6001a8c0@felwithe>
) <151129728197.20030425174900@attbi.com>
+ <017101c30c1c$f7a1a790$6001a8c0@felwithe>
4Message-ID: <148201738897.20030426135458@attbi.com>

9Brandy wrote on Saturday, April 26, 2003 at 12:55:04 PM:

%> can you have more then one import?

CYes, with the caveat that all @import rules must appear before all
(other rules. For example, this is okay:

    @import "main.css";
    @import "print.css" print;
    h1{font-size:3em}

DAlso, keep in mind that an imported style sheet without a specified
Fmedia, like the first rule in the above example, has an implied media

of "all".

-- 
John Lewis]
l13:43:46.067 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.067 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: matt.davey at dsl.pipex.com (Matthew Davey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:55:42 +0100
,Subject: FW: [css-d] inline frame border...
7Message-ID: <000e01c30c25$6fead4d0$0100007f@localhost>

And again.

-----Original Message-----
7From: Matthew Davey [mailto:matt.davey@dsl.pipex.com] 
'Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 7:47 PM
To: 'Steven Kallstrom'
,Subject: RE: [css-d] inline frame border...


EBest of my knowledge, only framesets (urgh) or iframes will give you
Dthis action. Don't know how to remove the IE iframe border with CSS
though.

}-----Original Message-----
,}From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
<}[mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of 
}Steven Kallstrom
(}Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2003 5:47 PM
}To: 'CSS List'
)}Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
}
}
}CSS Experts,
}
;}	I am working on a layout where I have a large graphic as
G}background, and menu.  I don't want to reload that since it is static
E}throughout, so I decided to just make it so that I would reload the
}content area.
}
&}http://12.221.231.252/test/test.html
}
G}1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
I}CSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
I}to do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
5}in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?
}
G}2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
<}using an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the 
}content inside
I}the div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
G}file...  I wish they had something like <div src="page"> sort of like
B}iframes, but you are simply change what is inbetween the divs...
}
}what do you think?
}
}Thanks a ton,
}
}Steven J. Kallstrom
}
}
H}______________________________________________________________________
+}css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3}http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
D}Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
}
]
l13:43:46.067 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.067 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: bmerkey at tampabay.rr.com (Brett Merkey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:02:49 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] inline frame border...
2References: <000e01c30c13$829c7730$6401a8c0@MAIN>
8Message-ID: <005701c30c26$6e5d1370$a0ca2341@lighthouse>

H| 1)  I can do this with an iframe...  I can get rid of the border with
J| CSS in Mozilla, but to get rid of the iframe border through IE you need
J| to do this... <iframe frameborder="0">  is there a way to get this done
6| in the CSS so that I don't have it as an attribute?

BNot that I know of. This has been a complaint since IE3. In fact,
>IFRAMEs in IE have other default attributes that override any
2CSS property, sometimes with nasty consequences. 


H| 2)  is there a way that I could do this using CSS and divs instead of
K| using an iframe...  I couldn't think of a way to load the content inside
J| the div without having all the different content pages in the same HTML
| file... 


@No again. You may want to experiment using the OBJECT tag. For 
0instance, this works in IE5/Win and Netscape 7:

B<object data="another.htm" type="text/html" id="yourID"></object>

ENote that the object tag must be given an explicit height and width,
Deither as attributes or thru the CSS. Note also that here again, IE
insists on a border.

Brett

]
l13:43:46.067 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.068 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: info at brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk (Brighton Freelance Web Design)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:21:56 +0100
2Subject: [css-d] How to center an image using CSS
WMessage-ID: <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>


Hi there,

8I'm trying to center the image at the top of this page.

Ahttp://www.brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk/szoo/template.htm

using the following code.

.logo {
	width: 333px;
	margin-right: auto;
	margin-left: auto;
	margin-bottom: 55px;
	text-align: center;
}

*It works on IE5.5 Mac but not on IE6 Win.

BAny ideas how I can get it to center on the most common browsers?

Andy]
l13:43:46.068 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.069 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:23:50 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
7References: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
"Message-ID: <3EAADCC6.C4A@ij.net>

Matthew Davey wrote:
 
J> The way I've found to use these (and avoid the broken box model as much
=> as possible) it to decale the follwing in you style sheet:
 
	> body {
>         font-size: 100%;
> }
 
!> P (or your divs or whatever) {
>         font-size: 0.8em;
#>         line-height: 1.166667em;
> }
 
3> This give you the equivalent of 12px font sizing

G.8em gives a little over a half size character box on a system that is
Iusing the windoze common default of 12pt/16px@96DPI. (144 dot box vs 256
dot box; 56.25%).
 
$> For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.

FFor what reference? 15px=1em if and only if the default size is 15px,
Gwhich is not the default case for any browser as a virgin installation
Gon any virgin PC OS. Netscape 4, IE6 & Mozilla/Netscape 6+ all default
Eto 16px/12pt. Windoze defaults to 96DPI. For IE6 you can see the few
;instances where 15px would be the default in the charts at
;http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

@Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html]
l13:43:46.069 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.070 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: knaepkens.luc at pandora.be (Luc)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:28:28 +0200
%Subject: FW: [css-d] ems or percent?
8In-Reply-To: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
7References: <000f01c30c25$7bfe1c00$0100007f@localhost>
4Message-ID: <12423476367.20030426212828@pandora.be>

Good evening Matthew,  
    

AIt was foretold that on 26-4-2003 @ 19:55:57 GMT+0100 (which was
320:55:57 where I live) Matthew Davey would mumble:

<snipped a bit>

&MD> For sizing reference, 1em = 15px.
  
GMatthew,  how  do  you  get  that value of 15px? In your example there
/aren't  any  px set, only 100% (body) and ems.

GI  thought  that  the  'em'  unit  equals  the  computed  value of the
G'font-size'  property  of the element on which it is used, except when
Git  occurs  in  the  value of the 'font-size' property itself. In that
7case it refers to the font size of the parent element.

;Or am i missing something fundamental here? (probably yes)
 
Best regards,
 Luc

---------------------------------------------
APowered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build
E2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera.

G"Men were made for war. Without it they wandered greyly about, getting
Dunder the feet of the women, who were trying to organize the really
0important things of life." - Alice Thomas Ellis
---------------------------------------------










]
l13:43:46.070 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.071 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: david at lenef.com (David Lenef)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:44:00 -0500
,Subject: [css-d] Disappearing Div on Mac IE
;Message-ID: <NFBBKJNGEDABMFKHCIFEAECKEAAA.david@lenef.com>

!http://Lenef.com/elite/prodtest/
:(Don't bother clicking the button - it doesn't work yet.)

KPlease refer to the above page on which I'm testing a product page layout.
KOn NetMechanic's Browser Photo, the right-hand content div does not appear
Kin Mac IE 5.0 screenshots, and most of it is way off the right edge of the
viewport on Mac IE 4.5.

EIt's supposed to be a 2-column layout with photos down the left side
I(float:left) and text specs on the right (margin-left used to create the
Kright column effect and stay out of the way of the photos). Style sheet is
Lembedded in the page. Any ideas what I need to do to accommodate Mac users?

FIt will eventually be dropped into a container div on the final page.

K(BTW, Mac users represent a miniscule portion of this site's audience, but
Hif one arrives at the page, they need to at least see the information.)

David Lenef
david@lenef.com
http://Lenef.com
]
l13:43:46.071 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.071 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:48:17 -0400
2Subject: [css-d] How to center an image using CSS
XIn-Reply-To: <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>
References: 
L <58043926-781C-11D7-BF98-00039377C3E4@brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk>
6Message-ID: <63-1549435046.20030426154817@mrclay.org>

6Saturday, April 26, 2003, 3:21:56 PM, Brighton wrote:
>BFWD> I'm trying to center the image at the top of this page.
GBFWD> http://www.brighton-freelance-web-design.co.uk/szoo/template.htm

ADrop the width and l/r margins on .logo.  It will expand to 100%
Dnaturally and text-align will do its job.  You can also use IDs for
/elements that only appear once in a document..

<div id="logo">
D   <img src="images/logos/home_logo.jpg" width="333" height="96" />
</div>

#logo {
    margin-bottom: 55px;
    text-align: center;
}

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/]
l13:43:46.071 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 11:50:53 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>

Joel,
FI've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font 
7size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...

body {  font-size: 76%; }

LThen, for different sections (divs) I set the font size to ems. Examples...

#middle { font-size: 1em; }
#left { font:-size: .9em }

?I also set the font size by ems for other elements. Example...

h1 { font-size: 2em; }

CThis allows the fonts to resize in ems in relation to the first % 
Fdeclaration. Whether it works for you, or not I don't  know. You may 
Jwant to try it and experiment changing % and em sizes and see if you can 
tweek it to your needs.
--
Tony]
l13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:06:28 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
G> I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
9> size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>
> body {  font-size: 76%; }

Why?

EI, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
Apage's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
1From mrmazda at ij.net  Sat Apr 26 21:18:34 2003
&From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:18:34 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>

Ian Hickson wrote:
 
*> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:

I> > I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
;> > size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
 
> Why?
 
G> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

HShhhhh! You, of all people, should know better. For people like you and
Gme, this is how we want inconsiderate web designers to make their text
Atiny. When they use 'body {font-size: 76%;}', it allows our user
Hstylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100% !important;}' to put it back how
Ait belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in body and shrink everything
Eelsewhere, our simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing
something?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

@Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html]
l13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:26:05 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
 <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>

Ian,
IUntimately almost anyone can set their font size as a user, even if the 
Epage is built to display at pixels. The designer sets the size they 
Ithink is best. After that, its out of their hands and the viewer can do 
Cas they wish. I picked up the method I suggest from Owen Briggs...

Ahttp://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html

JIt made sense to me, so I went with it. He gives some good reasons as to 
why he uses % and ems.

GAs usual, the wiki for this list points to some excellent resources...

.http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=FontSize
--
Tony

Ian Hickson wrote:

)>On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>  
>
G>>I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
9>>size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>>
>>body {  font-size: 76%; }
>>    
>>
>
>Why?
>
F>I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
B>page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
>  
>]
l13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261322140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:
> > >
 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }
> >
I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
2> Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better.

Hehe.


D> For people like you and me, this is how we want inconsiderate web
E> designers to make their text tiny. When they use 'body {font-size:
D> 76%;}', it allows our user stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100%
I> !important;}' to put it back how it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in
I> body and shrink everything elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule
&> can't work. Am I missing something?

II used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
to use it.

It doesn't work.

JThe problem is that many people write pages that are sized in pixels, and
Hwhen you override their setting on body, you end up making entire pages
unreadable.

FI guess it's better for authors to make their pages unreadable in one
Kplace (the body rule above) rather than all over though, as you point out.
KI just wish I understood why people are so obsessed with making their text
tiny.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
/From ian at hixie.ch  Sat Apr 26 21:32:19 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 13:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAEB5D.3050002@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261328180.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
K> It made sense to me, so I went with it. He gives some good reasons as to
> why he uses % and ems.

JOh I wasn't disagreeing with using %s and ems -- indeed I have written my
own comments on the matter:

1    http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1045789943&count=1

II'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
use better than me. :-)

#*crawls back into his ivory tower*

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
=From joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca  Sat Apr 26 21:51:21 2003
1From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:51:21 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

?Well, the replies to my message are certainly interesting. ;-)

JI'm not entirely new to CSS, but I am new to sizing fonts with something 
Mother than pixels (yes I decided to give control back to the user). The use 
Gof ems vs % almost seems to be a personal preference, so I guess that 
doesn't really matter.

MSo if I use body {font-size: 100%}, then the rest of the page will be sized 
Lin relation to that (i.e. 80% of 100, 75% of 100), right? Or will there be 
;some inheritance along the way under certain cirumstances?

?And does this apply to ems as well? Or do ems act differently?


MThat's a lot of questions for just one answer, eh?  -- If there is only one 
answer :-)




(At 05:18 PM 4/26/03, Felix Miata wrote:
>Ian Hickson wrote:
>
,> > On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
K> > > I've decided to use a combination of ems and %. First I set the font
=> > > size as a percentage for the entire page as follows...
>
 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
	> > Why?
>
I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
>
I>Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better. For people like you and
H>me, this is how we want inconsiderate web designers to make their text
B>tiny. When they use 'body {font-size: 76%;}', it allows our user
I>stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100% !important;}' to put it back how
B>it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in body and shrink everything
F>elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing
>something?
>--
?>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
?>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur
>
(>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409
>
@>Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html
>
H>______________________________________________________________________
+>css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
3>http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E>Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/]
l13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:57:22 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
	<3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261322140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAAF2B2.7C90@ij.net>

Ian Hickson wrote:
 
*> On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:

"> > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }

K> > > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
G> > > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

4> > Shhhhh! You, of all people, should know better.
 
> Hehe.
 
F> > For people like you and me, this is how we want inconsiderate web
G> > designers to make their text tiny. When they use 'body {font-size:
F> > 76%;}', it allows our user stylesheet rule 'body {font-size: 100%
K> > !important;}' to put it back how it belongs. ;-) When they use 100% in
K> > body and shrink everything elsewhere, our simple blanket override rule
(> > can't work. Am I missing something?
 
K> I used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
> to use it.
 
> It doesn't work.

Better than nothing.
 
L> The problem is that many people write pages that are sized in pixels, and
J> when you override their setting on body, you end up making entire pages
> unreadable.

GWell, body 100% doesn't impact elements sized in px. :-( But, only for
Fthe time it takes to use zoom, pending a fix someday maybe (users can
Eall hope, can't we?) for bug 4821, or even implementation of Jakob's
*suggestion "Improving Future Browsers" at
-http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20020819.html.

H> I guess it's better for authors to make their pages unreadable in one
M> place (the body rule above) rather than all over though, as you point out.

Shhhhh!

M> I just wish I understood why people are so obsessed with making their text
> tiny.

FAt URL below I've collected some reasons. Maybe you can add some I've
missed?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

GFelix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/defaultsize.html]
l13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: sarah at weed.org.nz (Sarah Wedde)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 09:02:01 +1200
,Subject: [css-d] Disappearing Div on Mac IE
<In-Reply-To: <NFBBKJNGEDABMFKHCIFEAECKEAAA.david@lenef.com>
.Message-ID: <BAD14D09.8875%sarah@weed.org.nz>

David,

KI think you  need to set an explicit width on the left-hand div (div.photo
H{margin-bottom: 2em; width: 300px;}) in order to get Mac/IE5 to behave.

Sarah


;On 4/27/03 7:44 AM, "David Lenef" <david@lenef.com> wrote:

#> http://Lenef.com/elite/prodtest/

M> On NetMechanic's Browser Photo, the right-hand content div does not appear
M> in Mac IE 5.0 screenshots, and most of it is way off the right edge of the
> viewport on Mac IE 4.5.
 
G> It's supposed to be a 2-column layout with photos down the left side
K> (float:left) and text specs on the right (margin-left used to create the
M> right column effect and stay out of the way of the photos). Style sheet is
N> embedded in the page. Any ideas what I need to do to accommodate Mac users?
 
> David Lenef]
l13:43:46.072 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:11:58 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426172956.00bbff18@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261359140.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

'On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Joel Young wrote:
>
A> And does this apply to ems as well? Or do ems act differently?

JOn the font-size property, 'em' and '%' mean exactly the same. (Well, 1em
Kis equivalent to 100%, so they mean the same thing given a factor of 100.)
JBoth of them refer to a value relative to the parent element's font-size.

IOn other properties, '%' refer to other measures, for example percentage
Gmargins refer to the width of the containing block. On the other hand,
4'em' units always refer to the element's font-size.

For example, given:

   h1 { font-size: 2em; }
   p { text-indent: 1em; }
$   blockquote { font-size: 0.5em; }

	...then:

-  <body>              User's font size (1em)
:   <h1> ... </h1>     Twice user's font size (2em of 1em)
4   <p> ... </p>       User's font size (1em of 1em)
   <blockquote>
=    <h1> ... </h1>    User's font size (2em of 0.5em of 1em)
B    <p> ... </p>      Half user's font size (1em of 0.5em of 1em)
   </blockquote>

  </body>

HTH,
-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
8From kr43m0r at earthlink.net  Sat Apr 26 22:16:26 2003
(From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:16:26 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
J	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
2Message-ID: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
> Why?
>
G> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

PWhy? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the OS. This
&is often in conflict with the design.

NWhat is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser, 76% is a
JVERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
,comfortable with reading text at that size.

PIf you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser to something
Qcomfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer to mimic the size of your
Emenu text by adjusting the default browser font size with a % value.

QGood for you if you've changed the default browser text size to fit your viewing
Kpleasure. By setting the default size to a percentage of the default, that
Qdesigner has opened the door for you to tweak it to suit your preference. Had he
6specified pixels, you on IE would have little choice.

Q>From my point of view, if you find MOST of the sites you visit too difficult to
Nview, then you'd be advised to seek an alternative UA if your user preference
yields no improvement.

Can you read a typical book?

PI'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs. I did 100% at
Qone point and got an equal amount of suggestions from users to reduce or enlarge
)the default size as I do now. Go figure?

Lonnie]
l13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: kr43m0r at earthlink.net (Lonnie)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:26:02 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
p	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAAE99A.6684@ij.net>
2Message-ID: <002101c30c3a$706aa6a0$6401a8c0@yoda>

Felix,

NAccording to your calculations, I'm glad it is impossible for me to ever even
meet you half-way!

Lonnie]
l13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 17:31:46 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261328180.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
5Message-ID: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>

7on 4/26/03 4:32 PM, Ian Hickson at ian@hixie.ch wrote:

K> I'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
> use better than me. :-)
> 
%> *crawls back into his ivory tower*

KAnd while you're up there see if you can get the W3C to drop font settings
Gfrom CSS3 - or perhaps just drop fixed-size units all together - cause
Kthat's the only way we'll never see this topic again. (and while you're at
Mit can we get some relative color units? Like "dark, darker, light, lighter"
Lor maybe that would screw with users who change their color settings to the
Dinverse of what authors expect... So maybe some way to reference an
3"opposite" color would be needed... Hehe... Sorry)

MAs an author I find a base px size with relative units off of that (as a few
Mothers have referred to in this thread) is sometimes the only sane way to do
Jthings - especially when so many other items on a page are based on pixel
Imeasurements. It just doesn't make sense not to give a default in pix to
Jmaintain the balance of a layout for the vast majority of users who don't
Mtouch their prefs. I also am generally pretty liberal with my choice of font
9sizes - using what is some circles would consider "big".

FYes using all relative units (or just not touching anything) would be
Jpreferred, but because there's such a wide gap between the many who don't
Lknow about their prefs, the few who do and take care to adjust accordingly,
Gand the clients that are paying the bills its sometimes not practical.

KAs a surfer I sometimes wish my browser(s) of choice were smarter in these
Iareas and could do things like remember text zoom settings, or alternate
Kstyle sheet choices across a site and across multiple sessions, similar to
Jhow remembers image blocking or cookies choices. I also am quick to set a
Mminimum font size of 9 or 10px when I install a browser which causes some of
Jits own problems (e.g. may hide some implied document structure, or cause
=overflow issues) but alleviates many of the worst offenders.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
1[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]]
l13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: svendtofte at svendtofte.com (Svend Tofte)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:42:31 +0200
%Subject: SV: [css-d] ems or percent?
EMessage-ID: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEENOCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>

<> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge.
> X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

IJust wanted to point out, that menu text, and "reading" text, is not the
Ksame, and is not read in the same way. I would be veary of comparing maybe
Hten small words, at the top of a window, with a page full of text, it's
Itotally different sizes here. Microsoft Word has a default size of 12pt.

Just a comment :)

Svend]
l13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 15:15:04 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
6In-Reply-To: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Felix Miata wrote:
> > >
F> > > When they use 100% in body and shrink everything elsewhere, our
G> > > simple blanket override rule can't work. Am I missing something?
> >
M> > I used to think this too, and indeed the logic makes sense. Then I tried
 > > to use it. It doesn't work.
>
> Better than nothing.

KNot really. All it does is change one set of unreadable pages for another.
;As you point out, what is really needed is full page zoom.


#On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Lonnie wrote:
>
P> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

Interesting.

LSo basically I should set my font size to 130% of what I would want to see?

GUnfortunately this makes sites that do honour my settings way too big.


F> I'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs. I
D> did 100% at one point and got an equal amount of suggestions from
F> users to reduce or enlarge the default size as I do now. Go figure?

GIf you got the same number of complaints when doing the right thing as
Gwhen doing the wrong thing, I would suggest doing the right thing. :-)


+On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Chris Casciano wrote:
9> on 4/26/03 4:32 PM, Ian Hickson at ian@hixie.ch wrote:
>
M> > I'm just whining about people who decide they know the best font size to
> > use better than me. :-)
> >
'> > *crawls back into his ivory tower*
>
M> And while you're up there see if you can get the W3C to drop font settings
I> from CSS3 - or perhaps just drop fixed-size units all together - cause
8> that's the only way we'll never see this topic again.

DDropping absolute units has been considered several times, but as a
Awhole the working group feels that they do have valid use cases.


E> (and while you're at it can we get some relative color units? Like
F> "dark, darker, light, lighter" or maybe that would screw with users
A> who change their color settings to the inverse of what authors
E> expect... So maybe some way to reference an "opposite" color would
> be needed... Hehe... Sorry)

EThis is also being considered, although I hear there are issues with
?how to define it. I recommend checking the www-style archives.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
2From tbounds at gci.net  Sat Apr 26 23:40:48 2003
'From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 14:40:48 -0800
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>

Ian,
GWhat do you think of the designer being so bold as to not honor other 
user settings? For instance...

EFont Type: Setting preferred font types. As with setting font size, 
Hdoing such requires the user to go out of their way to apply what they 
may prefer.

IContent Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in 
?effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.

DLink Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a 
designers preference. 
--
Tony]
l13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:42:09 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
UReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
'	<001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
#Message-ID: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>

Lonnie wrote:

> Ian Hickson wrote:

> > Tony Bounds wrote:

 > > > body {  font-size: 76%; }

	> > Why?

I> > I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the
E> > page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.
 
R> Why? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the OS. This
(> is often in conflict with the design.
 
<> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge.

GActually it is a terrible gauge propagated by Owen Biggs, who has also
:shared such other gems as "the browser defaults are huge"
G<http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/typography/index.html> and
D"most browsers default to a text size that I have to back up to the
kitchen to read"
I<http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/font/index.html>.
EIt is apparent that Owen's eyes are not your average UA user's eyes,
Hbeing akin to those of an eagle, able to see the tiniest things at huge
Ddistances. It is wholly unfair to assume most UA users have similar
	ability.

> X-browser, 76% is a
L> VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you should be fairly
.> comfortable with reading text at that size.

IIt's an awful and not even comparable estimate. Bogus, bogus, bogus. Can
Eread and comfortable read are entirely different things. If the menu
Atext is 76% of a comfortably set default page text, it is merely
Elegible, not comfortable. Simply legible is good enough for familiar
Hthings like system controls. They get used frequently, but only briefly
Ieach time. With each use, they become more familiar, eventually reaching
Ithe point where experienced users wish they were smaller still, in order
Fto provide more space to the viewport, or to allow the use of smaller
Iwindows, so that more of other windows could be seen simultaneously. The
Gfamiliarity all but dispenses with any need to read at all, with mouse
Ievents targeted to remembered screen locations rather than words read. A
Gshort squint at small controls here & there is far more tolerable than
Gfull time squint required to read page text as small as controls text.

R> If you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser to something
S> comfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer to mimic the size of your
G> menu text by adjusting the default browser font size with a % value.

ENo it isn't, and you don't know what size my menu text is anyway. In
Gwindoze for example, controls text size varies according to DPI, which
Ialso you don't know. The eagle-eyed may very well find that the default,
Fdesigned for low resolution displays, works perfectly fine even after
Hdoubling the screen resolution from the low common values of 640 or 800
Gwide. Others, like me, and many others no longer under 40, welcome the
Iability to increase controls size, whether or not increasing resolution,
7taking away the need to squint to use system controls.

GFWIW, the IE6/Mozilla defaults of 16px/12pt are close enough for me to
Icall just right, when I'm using 1024 wide resolution, and a 19" monitor.
CWhen I drop the resolution back to 800 wide, 13px becomes slightly
Ftaller than 16px is on 1024 wide, while 12px becomes slightly shorter
D<http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/pixelsize2.html>, & I change my
default from 16 to 13.

%Now, compare to Ian Hixie's settings
E<http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1045789943&count=1>. Twice 12.5px is 25px
D(prefs options include 24 & 26, but not 25). Twice 800 wide is 1600
Fwide. The only significant difference in conversion is his display is
Bsmaller, but then he's probably not even half my age (50+), still
Eblessed with decent if not good eyesight. From what I've seen of his
Dmusings on the subject of font sizes, I hesitate to assume his near
vision is excellent.
 
> Can you read a typical book?

DThere is no such thing as a typical book. My bible is a large print
Fedition. Many paperbacks use smaller text than newspapers. Newspapers
Hare a strain, so I get most of my news off TV, or the internet, where I
Ghave a UA that allows me to override the common arrogant page designer
Iassumption that UA designers are ignorant morons who make the PC default
12pt/16px without good reason.
 
C> I'm going to stick with 70-80% of the default size in my designs

CI'd like to visit some of these. As long as I've been reading your
Hadvocations of designer knows best I can't recall one instance of a URL
pointing to any of your work.

> I did 100% at
S> one point and got an equal amount of suggestions from users to reduce or enlarge
+> the default size as I do now. Go figure?

8You place more value upon the clueless than the clued. 

ADo you design sites using IE6 using the system defaults, with no
Eadjustment to the defaults, such as adjusting the browser default to
Gyour liking before starting a design? One of these days section 508 is
liable to catch up with you.

GIt's certainly a good thing for users of sites made by people like you
?that UA zoom and !important in user stylesheets are available.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

@Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html]
l13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:59:51 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
5Message-ID: <BAD087A7.53B97%chris@placenamehere.com>

9on 4/26/03 6:42 PM, Felix Miata at mrmazda@ij.net wrote:

> 
9> You place more value upon the clueless than the clued.

Yes.

MAnd until browsers come with install wizards that walk through configuration
 I don't see that changing much.

M... If you know how to set up your browser of choice for desktop for optimal
Gviewing I will try my damnedest to not screw you over (e.g. 0.5-0.7ems
Iothers referenced) But I have a lot more confidence that you know how to
Kdeal with what I as an author throw your way, then I have for Joe Internet
User.

:*takes this moment to consider the absence of a list mom*

LI know you'll never be satisfied with that answer Felix so I'm not going to
Hbother continuing down this road. I urge others on both sides to do the
same.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
1[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]]
l13:43:46.073 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 16:00:59 -0700 (PDT)
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
(In-Reply-To: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
 <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261548211.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

(On Sat, 26 Apr 2003, Tony Bounds wrote:
>
H> What do you think of the designer being so bold as to not honor other
!> user settings? For instance...
>
F> Font Type: Setting preferred font types. As with setting font size,
I> doing such requires the user to go out of their way to apply what they
> may prefer.

IOverriding font-family is easy at the user stylesheet level, so I'm fine
*with authors choosing their own typeface.


J> Content Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in
A> effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.

HI say good luck to them. My user agent gives me the ability to override
window resizing, etc. :-)


E> Link Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a
> designers preference.

KLike with font-family, colours are easy to override, so I'm fine with that
Htoo. In general, and this applies to font-family too, different colours
Ddon't make a page more or less readable for me, like font sizes do.

-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
7From cdwise at wiserways.com  Sun Apr 27 00:04:28 2003
/From: cdwise at wiserways.com (Cheryl D. Wise)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 18:04:28 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
AMessage-ID: <003f01c30c48$30858060$1901a8c0@local.wiserways.com>

IYou may think on your monitor that 76% of the default setting is a "good
Hestimate" but I can't read 76% of the default on my laptop period, with
or without reading glasses.

GWhile I applaud using % instead of fixed px (or even worse pt) sizes I
Iget very tired of having to adjust fonts up to read them. Funny enough I
Hcan only think of one site that I even considered adjusting a font down
Hto a smaller size and it was a site on accessibility that seemed to use
an extra large size font.

EPersonally I'd rather a design be 'broken' than a site's contents be

unusable.

Cheryl D. Wise
WiserWays, LLC
www.wiserways.com
Office: 713.353.0139
Mobile: 713.412.0406
cdwise@wiserways.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Lonnie

> > body {  font-size: 76%; }
>
> Why?
>
H> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting the 
C> page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems strange.

GWhy? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than the
0OS. This is often in conflict with the design.]
l13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:12:47 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
#Message-ID: <3EAB126F.7A2D@ij.net>

Tony Bounds wrote:

E> Link Colors and Styles: Diverging from the standard and imposing a
> designers preference.

BEventually, the power for users to override using css will become
)commonly exercised. e.g., this I do now:

?:link:hover[target="_blank"],:visited:hover[target="_blank"] {
7  color: white !important; background: red !important;
}
;:link:hover[target="_new"],:visited:hover[target="_new"] {
7  color: white !important; background: red !important;
}

-http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

@Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html]
l13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: simon at jessey.net (Simon Jessey)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:33:20 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
o	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
	<3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
:Message-ID: <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>

----- Original Message ----- 
%From: "Felix Miata" <mrmazda@ij.net>
%Subject: Re: [css-d] ems or percent?


> If the menu
C> text is 76% of a comfortably set default page text, it is merely
G> legible, not comfortable. Simply legible is good enough for familiar
> things like system controls.


MI have to agree with that. I have a 21 inch monitor attached to a Windows XP
Iplatform set to 1280 x 1024. I use this setting because I want plenty of
Jscreen real estate, but the menus (in their default setting) are a little
too small for my liking.

JI make web documents using relative units, with the only exceptions being
Gthe odd bit of padding, border width or letter spacing. In the case of
Mfonts, I almost always set a size of 100% in the BODY and then have 0.8em as
Gmy smallest child size. Users have the option of making it quite a bit
Msmaller or larger if they desire. I like to make a font as large as possible
&without it being ugly or impractical.

FThis new trend for microfonts is peculiar. I can only assume that the
Ltypical designer has a gigantic monitor, or perhaps projects their computer
Himage on a wall. One site that particularly annoys me is Kaliber10000 (
Ihttp://www.k10k.net/ ). Let me quote from one of my own weblog entries:-

I'The design is absolutely incredible, but the small font size being used
Dmeans that glyphs are dwarfed by medium-sized subatomic particles.'

MAnd resizing the text isn't always the answer, assuming it is even possible.
MMaking the text bigger on the Kaliber10000 site reveals the structure of the
?typeface, causing it to appear blocky and '80s computer-like'.

ENo. I am a firm believer in using CSS relative units and leaving the
Ldecision up to the user. It is our job as web designers to conceive layouts
Lthat don't break when text is resized. The fixed width site is a dinosaur -
power to the user!

Simon Jessey

w: http://jessey.net/blog/
e: simon@jessey.net

]
l13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 19:02:27 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
References: 
J <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261303350.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
' <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
3Message-ID: <61220190472.20030426190227@attbi.com>

8Lonnie wrote on Saturday, April 26, 2003 at 4:16:26 PM:

D>> I, as a user, have set my font size to be what I prefer. Setting
?>> the page's font size to 76% of my preferred font size seems
>> strange.

E> Why? Because browsers typically set default font sizes larger than
5> the OS. This is often in conflict with the design.

GThat may be a good reason to send a nasty letter to browser makers. On
Ethe other hand, most browsers let the user choose their own default,
Gso it's not at all clear what you'd ask them to do. I'd argue that any
:size has a great chance of conflicting with most designs.

DI can already choose a good default size. My problem isn't with the
Fbrowser, it's with authors who assume I'm ignorant and lazy. They try
Cto "help" me because, after all, they're designers, so surely they
#know what I want better than I do.

G> What is expected? The size of menu items is a good gauge. X-browser,
D> 76% is a VERY good estimate. If you can read your menus, then you
?> should be fairly comfortable with reading text at that size.

E76% of my preferred font-size = smaller than my preferred menu size,
Dand much smaller than my preferred font-size. What you're saying is
Ftrue if and only if the user hasn't changed their menu text size, the
Euser hasn't changed their browser text size, OS text scaling is off,
Eand they're using a common platform like Windows and IE on a monitor
Gof "normal" size. That's an assumption you can't make with confidence.
FOh, and of course then they need to have near perfect vision as well.

DNor are the two related; I set the menu size in my OS and I set the
Fdefault text size in my browser. Even if you can change the menu size
Edirectly in your browser, I doubt it also rescales your default text
Asize. Further, the two serve different purposes. I want my menus
Gtaking up as little space as possible while still being highly legible
C(where legible means "read easily"). I want web pages to be highly
Greadable (where readable means "read easily at length"). The two serve
Dradically different purposes. As such, my menus are set to a pretty
>small sans-serif and my user style sheet uses a larger serif.

@I don't mind if you override my font-family, even if you choose
Fsomething lame like Times New Roman. I may be annoyed, I may disagree
Ewith you, but at least the text is almost as readable as before. But
Fwhen you cut the size by a quarter, text suddenly becomes much harder
Cto read no matter what my preferred typeface is, and odds are your
@style sheet will be disabled after about two seconds (Ctrl+G by
Adefault in Opera). If your page is designed well, maybe I'll try
Ezooming first instead. Maybe I'll simply leave and go read something
Belse. One thing is certain: There's no way I'll sit there and try
reading tiny text.

E> If you, as a user, have set your general font size in YOUR browser
F> to something comfortable, it is certainly reasonable for a designer
G> to mimic the size of your menu text by adjusting the default browser
> font size with a % value.

DThat doesn't make any sense. The only way it would make sense is if
Gyou know the size of one or both, and you only have access to the size
Gof one (and even then you don't know the specified or actual size). As
Aa web page designer, it's impossible to mimic the size of a menu
Dwithout making assumptions about user settings. The two just aren't
"related unless by happy accident.

EAs mentioned above, nor does it mean the text will be readable, even
"if you could mimic the menu text.

F> Good for you if you've changed the default browser text size to fit
E> your viewing pleasure. By setting the default size to a percentage
E> of the default, that designer has opened the door for you to tweak
G> it to suit your preference. Had he specified pixels, you on IE would
> have little choice.

DI use Opera, and I'm not the only one. Even more people use Mozilla
@and Safari. Where do people get the idea that everyone uses IE?

> Can you read a typical book?

'Yes. That doesn't seem related to CSS.

-- 
John Lewis]
l13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 01:20:46 +0100
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
References: 
�	<5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda><3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
/	<002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
2Message-ID: <007d01c30c52$d918f950$fd00a8c0@mike>

MI feel somewhat humble at asking a small question in the midst of CSS gurus,
Lwith wide polarity of view (no pun intended), indulging in an excellent and
Kimportant debate. With my business consulting hat on, a simple question...
Gespecially given the cogent example of http://www.k10k.net/, someone's
Gexcellently designed window to the world but so difficult on the eyes.

MOn the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
Iyour opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
Gsettings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
users, most of the time?

Mike
Edinburgh, Scotland]
l13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:38:50 -0300
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
3In-Reply-To: <007d01c30c52$d918f950$fd00a8c0@mike>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com>
 <3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net>
' <001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
 <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
/ <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426213121.00bcd8b0@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

!At 09:20 PM 4/26/03, Mike wrote:
><snip>
N>On the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
J>your opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
H>settings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
>users, most of the time?
>
>Mike
>Edinburgh, Scotland



LYes! This is what my original question was about, and I'm glad you brought 
Lit back around, Mike. Hopefully someone will have an answer for us. In the 
Kmeantime, let's see if I understand a few things.  Someone please tell me 
<if I'm even close to knowing what I'm talking about.... :-)

===============
Scenario 1:
AAssume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}

?This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
#of the browser's default. Yes? No?
===============
Scenario 2:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 1em}

AAll text on the page will still be 80% of the browser's default,
=because basically 1em = 100%, and I'm only setting it to 20%
$less (which is 80%).  Right? Wrong?
===============
Scenario 3:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 0.9em}

:Okay, NOW the text will actually be just under 80% of the
:browser default, because it is 9/10ths of 80% of default.
===============
Scenario 4:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 100%}

=Again, the text remains at only 80% of default, because I've
Cset it to be 100% of the body font size (not that I would do that,
it's just for example)
===============
One more... Scenario 5:
body {font-size: 100%}
0.classname {font-size: 1em} or {font-size: 80%}

FHere, the text will either be the full browser default, or 80% of it.
Right?
===============


HIf all the above are correct, then it's just as easy to set the body at
D100% all the time, and simply use smaller percentages for different
sizes.
BThat, or do body {font-size: 100%}, and use various em sizes, and
Ceverything should work out - keeping the sizes within a reasonable
range, of course.

8Did I reach home base, or am I somewhere in left field?


Joel]
l13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 20:57:04 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
zReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030426144155.00b91780@cbiweb.com><3EAAE31D.4080502@gci.net><001901c30c39$18eefad0$6401a8c0@yoda>
F	<3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net> <002001c30c4c$38dc10e0$6501a8c0@Simon2S0JP11>
#Message-ID: <3EAB2AE0.7C85@ij.net>

Simon Jessey wrote:
 
H> This new trend for microfonts is peculiar. I can only assume that the
N> typical designer has a gigantic monitor, or perhaps projects their computer
J> image on a wall. One site that particularly annoys me is Kaliber10000 (
K> http://www.k10k.net/ ). Let me quote from one of my own weblog entries:-
 
K> 'The design is absolutely incredible, but the small font size being used
F> means that glyphs are dwarfed by medium-sized subatomic particles.'

HZoom to only 150% in Mozilla trunk, and right in the middle text spills
out of its containing image
Fhttp://www.k10k.net/images/frontpage/features_wspecials.gif. The site
1also depends on image substitutes for text. e.g.
8http://www.k10k.net/images/backs/front_issuematrix.gif 
@And, if you think it's tough now, try it at 1600 wide or higher
Hresolution. Hard to figure if the purpose of that site is anything more
)than to show off someone's css-d skills.
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

@Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html]
l13:43:46.074 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.075 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 21:06:58 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
6In-Reply-To: <BAD087A7.53B97%chris@placenamehere.com>
7Message-ID: <001601c30c59$4d8f5e90$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

> Chris Casciano :
>
;> on 4/26/03 6:42 PM, Felix Miata at mrmazda@ij.net wrote:
> >
;> > You place more value upon the clueless than the clued.
 
> Yes.

DEmphatically agree with Chris. While I hesitate to even chime in on
@this, since it seems more than played out and there seems to be
Hunwillingness to budge on both sides of the issue, I would just like to
Iadd, while this is obviously a *philosophical* difference, if left to my
Hown devices I would design for the clueless EVERY time, since they make
3up the vast majority of users that spend the cash.

DExample: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/library/us-tricks/  

I.. While it's an older article, so much of it is still true to this day.
HSpend some time watching **REAL** users... Not only do many of them not
Gknow what the Stop and Refresh button do, but I have NEVER seen ONE of
Four non-technical test users change their font size.  Ever. I've even
Dasked some to do so specifically and was greeted with the astounded
%reply of "you mean I can do that??".

II can't remember if this specific tale of woe is referenced in the above
Garticle, or one that it links to, but I have actually, personally seen
Eone user complain that he couldn't hit a link in question because he
E"ran out of desk".  This was a bio-chemist whose brain must weigh at
Dleast 5 times what mine does, and  who had been using computers for
Gquite a few years, who didn't realize he could actually pick the mouse
Iup off the desk and reposition it without effecting the cursor position.
HDo you think HE knows how to change his font size?  He doesn't, however
Ihe estimates that a full 60%-70% of his non-essential purchases are made
Eon-line!!!  THIS is the guy I gotta design for??!!?!  Yes.  And when
Bpresented with larger than life, default windows IE text size, he
Hdetests the excessive scrolling he has to go through, and uses the back
Fbutton instead.  I heard him before hitting his back once mutter, "do
 these people think I'm blind?".

GMy dear old mother, who still to this day double-clicks links AND form
Hbuttons on web sites despite all her kids and grandkids telling her not
Gto, can't set the font size on her browser, even though she's actually
Gbeen shown how to a few times, and even had the font-size button added
Cto her IE toolbar for her. She can use three things.. A web site's
Gpresented navigation, her back button, and her "x" button in the upper
Dright hand corner.  BUT, she Googles with the best of 'em, and is a
FHEAVY internet shopper, even finding full-adult size "footie" pajamas
Efor my wife and I (which ain't an easy task, but much appreciated in
INorthern Maine!).  From what I can discern, what she likes to see on web
Hsites is 12 pixel Arial, and will probably never learn how to apply her
Ipersonal preference at the browser level.. But will shop ecommerce sites
F'till the day she dies.  For her, the back button is just easier than
Gbothering with all the "stupid buttons" on the browser (her words, not
mine).

ESo, yeah, I'm totally with Chris.  I don't place more 'value' on the
Hclueless than the "clued"... But the "clued" can figure it out on their
Eown if they want to. The clueless, who spend the same money that the
G"clued" people do, and make up a greater number of users, would prefer
Gthe back button over actually learning how to use their tools.  Bottom
Fline is: my job ain't to convince them to use their tools, never mind
Ateach them HOW, my job is to sell them crap, or convince them of
something.  

DIt just depends on what you do for a living and who your target is.
BProgrammers and Designers are in no way reflective of the average
3internet user, though many of them think they are.

CThe usual disclaimers apply... Just my $0.02, IMHO, YMMV, etc.. :)

--Josh
]
l13:43:46.075 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.075 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 14:30:01 +0930
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
(In-Reply-To: <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net>
/Message-ID: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>

Tony Bounds wrote:
> ...
> 
K> Content Width: For instance, sizing the content to a fixed width and in 
A> effect removing the users control of such via a window resize.
> 
> ...

AI've already been thru a flame war on this on another list, but 
-css-d attracts a more sensible crowd, so ...

BI'm not sure if this is what you meant, but, one of my pet hates 
@is sites which spread their text across the whole width of the 
?window. This particularly applies to "minimal" sites where no 
>use is made of CSS at all, but I've seen it in lots of other 
sites too.

BNow, lots of studies have been done on this, and the evidence is 
@not entirely equivocal, but a concensus seems to be that lines 
8of text should not exceed a certain length for optimum 
@readability. Therefore, it is arguably best to limit the width 
>of blocks of text to, say, 33em. (I've played with this, and 
B30em seemed too narrow, 35em too wide -- to my eyes.) Certainly, 
:this corresponds more or less to what you'll find in any 
Bbookstore. If print publishing represents 500 years of trial and 
>error, then we can feel at least a little confident that the 
@present-day format for books represents a pretty good standard 
:for readability. (Also black text on a white background, 
9although that may also be influenced by printing costs.)

1So there is an argument for using something like

"	div.text { max-width:33em; ... }

?to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of 
the user's screen.

>But many seem to find any kind of limitations placed on user 
Apreference abhorrent, so I'm prepared to hear negative feedback 
on this suggestion.

.A compromise I've adopted at my ebooks site, 
&http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/
6is to open each ebook in a new window which is sized 
Bappropriately*, and leave the user free to resize the new window 
6if they wish. But I'm still tempted to use max-width.

?[* Javascript only lets you specify window size in pixels, so 
/this is only going to be approximate at best.]

	Regards,
Steve

-- 
Stephen Thomas,
Senior Systems Analyst,
Adelaide University Library
ADELAIDE UNIVERSITY SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
&Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au
5URL: http://staff.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/]
l13:43:46.075 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.075 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gleemax at attbi.com (John Lewis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 05:22:54 -0500
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
? <3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net> <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
4Message-ID: <181257423383.20030427052254@attbi.com>

6Steve wrote on Sunday, April 27, 2003 at 12:00:01 AM:

?> But many seem to find any kind of limitations placed on user
E> preference abhorrent, so I'm prepared to hear negative feedback on
> this suggestion.

FOn the contrary, I think they'd be inclined to agree with you. I know
FI do! I'll now start rambling on about CSS; feel free to stop reading
here if you're busy.

EUsing min-width in conjunction with max-width is usually superior to
Dsizing something with a basic em width. The difference is basically
Fthat between a range (e.g., 16em to 32em) and a single number (24em).
?I think we can all agree that a range is almost always better.

FWe don't have anything like min-width and max-width for font-size. If
Dwe did, keeping with the same spirit of min-width and max-width, it
Gwould probably be way too complicated (for author use) anyway. You can
Eeither take monitor, resolution, preferred text size, window height,
Gand window width into account, or you can let it be useless. Including
Fonly some of the above basically cuts its usefulness so much that you
Bmight as well use font-size, and including it all (or most of it)
?makes it so complicated that it would never be implemented, or
Eprobably even specified. Users have their own set of problems. Let's
Gsay it's specified for users instead, with no auto sizing for authors.
-You have two main options for min-font-size:

+    1. Specify a minimum legible font-size
,    2. Specify a minimum readable font-size

CThe problem is, on a well designed page (1em body text and smaller
Bnavigation text) specifying a minimum readable font-size is quite
Cimperfect. Sure, text will be your minimum readable font-size--but
Gthat means that stuff you would prefer small (i.e., legible instead of
Areadable, like menus and legal text) will be too big. On a badly
Ddesigned page (smaller body text and much smaller navigation text),
Athe opposite happens. If you specify the min-font-size to be the
Eminimum legible size, to erase the possibility of illegible text but
Gnot erase the possibility that text will be unreadable, the navigation
Dtext, which was previously illegible, is now legible. The body text
Ewas already legible, so it didn't change in size! It's still just as
>unreadable, because "readable" and "legible" are two entirely
Cdifferent concepts. Which means your two options above really are:

A    1. Screw up small text at well designed sites, but fix badly
)       designed sites as well as you can
E    2. Don't fix badly designed sites, but leave well designed sites
       alone.

@The same applies to max-font-size to a lesser degree, but since
Gmax-font-size isn't quite as important as min-font-size (max-font-size
Eis like min-width, and min-font-size is like max-width, for those of
Byou confused but familiar with those properties--although I think
Fmin-width is relatively more useful than max-font-size, so it's not a
fair comparison).

?Setting a sane column width doesn't have as great an effect on
Ereadability as decreasing a font-size from an optimum size, which is
Dby definition unsafe. It's hard to think of a user style sheet that
?would cause problems if a page sensibly overrode max-width and
Dmin-width values, unless the need was vital (in which case the user
Gwould have already overriden, rendering the problem moot--keep in mind
GI'm only talking about advanced users, since we can assume no one else
Dwould use min-width or max-width or even have a user style sheet at
all).

CIn the case of neophyte users, setting a sane column width doesn't
Chave as adverse an effect on readability as decreasing a font-size
Ffrom an unknown size, because no matter the em value the column width
Cwill make sense (even if it's unreadable, or produces a horizontal
Escrollbar, it will still make sense if you're the page author--which
=is all you can know, since you don't control the user or his
Acomputer), because you have knowledge of the entire author style
Csheet, there is no user style sheet by definition, and even if you
Dsniff for a browser and assume a default font size it may have been
Echanged by accident or by a different user or by OS settings. On the
Fother hand, decreasing an unknown font-size can lead to illegible and
Dunreadable fonts (e.g., if you're decreasing a font-size already on
-the threshold of legibility or readability).

DIn reality, setting a max-width is like setting a line-height. It's
Brelated to the font-size, and it affects readability greatly, but
?they're both based on the font-size in CSS. You can change the
Eline-height, margin, padding, width, and so on that are based on ems
Gwith wild abandon. Even changing colors affects readability (so try to
Eavoid fuschia on magenta, if it's no big deal). You can use them all
Fresponsibly or irresponsibly. The fundamental difference in font-size
B(compared to ems in other properties, in this example) is that by
Dchanging it you affect a great deal. When you change the font-size,
Fmargins and padding in ems are also decreased, the actual line-height
Dis usually decreased, and the width or height of a box sized in ems
<decreases. That's a much bigger deal than changing most CSS
properties.

ENot all ems are created equal. A value of .5em applied to a width is
Galways .5em, no matter the actual font-size. Since you know .5em = 1/2
Bthe current font-size, that's valuable even if you don't know the
Eactual font-size. Setting em on width doesn't change the value; it's
Dconsistent. On the other hand, a value of .5em applied to font-size
Dchanges the meaning of an em. From now on, .5em of that font-size =
C1/4 of the 1em and 1/2 of the current .5em, unless you're changing
Efont-size again, in which case you modify the value for that element
Band its descendants as well. You've now lost basically all of the
Fusefulness of em. You can still calculate values of em, and fractions
Band so on (like I did above), but it won't help you design a page
Gwell, since you don't know the actual value. Much of the reason 1em is
Gso valuable is that it's 1em, not ".9em to 1.3em". That's why assuming
F1em is more valuable than assuming everyone's browser default is 16px
Gexcept that group, whose default is 14px, etc. The absolute values are
Finherently less useful. In a perfect world, you'd know all the values
Gand style according. You'd also know the users favorite colors and pet
peeves.

=You need to know the actual value of 1em to change the value
Dsignificantly with confidence, if you want to know you're improving
Ethe user experience. I define significantly as above 6.25%, but it's
Esort of arbitrary. Sort of. You could practically change it by 18.5%
Cor so without causing major harm in most cases, but you're sure to
Fhave an impact that's felt, and there is the very real possibility of
Aunreadable text. So, 93.75%? Hardly a big deal. I might not even
Dnotice, and even if I do I'm not likely to be hurt terribly. On the
Cother hand, I'll notice and probably curse 81.5% (depending on the
Ctypeface, leading, column width, and my mood). If you were against
Gchanging font-size for body text generally, because you realized there
Gare bad things about doing so, you could still change it to 93.75% (or
?so) and very few people would have cause to complain. Changing
=non-body text to about 81.5% is about as safe. You could get
Bcomplaints from veteran users, and it could cause something to be
<illegible, but very few people will have cause to complain.

FOf course, all that's sort of useless, because my 1em is not Alison's
G1em, or Sarah's 1em, or Aaron's 1em. It may be, but it isn't, and more
Eimportantly it can change, from day to day and even more frequently.
DFor example, my preferred font-size changed no less than four times
Gyesterday. I wasn't doing much of anything strange--I think it changes
at least twice a day.

EEven if a user has a max-width set on body, overriding that value is
Eless harmful than changing a font-size on body. Indeed, if max-width
?on body could cause a problem with your page, you'd do well to
Boverride it preemptively. I think it would be more harmful to not
Econsider the effect of max-width than to consider the effect and act
2accordingly. It would be hard to argue otherwise.

/> A compromise I've adopted at my ebooks site,
G> http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/ is to open each ebook in a new
C> window which is sized appropriately*, and leave the user free to
C> resize the new window if they wish. But I'm still tempted to use
> max-width.

BI say go for it! We need more intelligent uses of CSS on the web,
Gespecially of relatively rare properties. Anything to stop JS windows,
FI say. Of course, Win IE didn't support max-width last I checked, and
5it's funny how most of the web uses Win IE. Oh well.


GI thought about some guidelines for text sizing in CSS. At first I was
?going to list my own guidelines (in fact, I wrote up the email
Fyesterday, but I didn't send it), but I think it would be more useful
Fto list "guidelines for designers." I already know what I'm doing and
Gwhat I like. If someone is likely to agree with me, I think they could
Ejust as easily come up with similar guidelines. I might as well list
.some things people may actually find helpful.

; 1. Size everything relative to body (or the root element)

G    Sizing everything relative to body gives you just as much control,
F    and it lets a user easily override the "main" setting on body and
A    have your page text resize accordingly, both larger and even
F    smaller. Use math if you want exact values. For instance, instead
D    of 14px body text and 28px headings, use 14px body text and 2em
    headings.

  2. Use safe line-height values

@    There's hardly ever a need to specify dangerous line-height
B    values. If you want to maintain an exact value from a certain
A    size, use a little math. For example, 14px/19px would become
B    14px/1.357 (and so on, if you'd like). It's most important to
E    avoid 1em/19px or similar, because 1em could be much larger than
5    19px, in which case the text would be illegible.

$ 3. Take text resizing into account

E    There's a reason pixel-width layouts suck. If there's no room to
E    breath, increased text size values lead to tiny columns of text.
A    In an ideal world, you'd use min-width and max-width to size
F    columns. The reality is there's no good solution today other than
B    avoiding bad situations. That doesn't mean you should neglect
F    min-width and max-width, it just means you shouldn't rely on them
E    working. Keep it in your "complex" style sheet if that's how you
    do things.

; 4. Try to avoid massive font-size changes relative to 1em

D    In many ways, some random px value (as above, preferably on the
F    body element) is better than a small % of my preferred font-size.
B    A small % is surely going to cause headaches, but a random px
F    value has a decent chance of working, and a much better chance of
G    causing less harm if it doesn't work. On the other hand, about 80%
F    of the body size on a menu stands a great chance of being helpful
F    and a tiny chance of being harmful. So do that! It's pretty safe,
    and the payoff is big.

& 5. Try to consider user style sheets

A    I never realized how powerful user style sheets were until I
C    started using them. Similarly, it helps a great deal if you've
D    experimented with CSS before you tackle potential problems. For
<    example, if have a rule like this in a user style sheet

(        p{color:white;background:black}

D    (ever mind how unlikely that is for the moment) and you have an
!    author style sheet with this

        p{background:white}

F    we have a problem. Try to set common values in pairs and whatnot.
G    If something would look truly hideous with a border, and you could
E    imagine someone putting a border on that element in a user style
<    sheet, play it safe and override the border. Colors and
<    backgrounds are meant to be together; on't forget about
E    transparent backgrounds, since you'll probably need or want them
G    at some point. Another thing, since so few CSS sites seem to do it
F    (for whatever reason), please set a line-height if you assume the
E    default value, even if you just use "normal." I don't think it's
D    going to harm anyone, and it will benefit those of us trying to
G    read a narrow column with a huge line-height (or, theoretically, a
@    wide column with a tiny line-height, but that isn't exactly
    likely).

-- 
John Lewis]
l13:43:46.075 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.075 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: moose at literarymoose.info (The Moose)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:41:52 -0500
4Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
7Message-ID: <oproadf2zb98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>

Hello,

KI have played a bit with the display of the unordered lists when they are 
Kused for navigation of a logical sequence of pages, and would like to ask 
Bfor screenshots from the following browsers: *Safari*, *Camino*, 
*Konqueror*.

EThere are two pages (I'd like to get screenshots for both from each 

browser):

9http://www.literarymoose.info/=/destroy/moovigation.html

Ahttp://www.literarymoose.info/=/destroy/moovigation-variant.html

FThe first features generated content (with entities only) hidden via 
Khtml[xmlns] method, the second does not. Mozilla displays &#xxxx; instead 
Mof the character on the second page (I don't know why). Opera7.1 behaves in 
both cases.

DThe size of screenshots does not matter, I'll be watching my inbox.

thank you in advance,

Wojtek

p.s. styles embedded.
8From outlaw at joseywales.com  Sun Apr 27 12:53:21 2003
,From: outlaw at joseywales.com (Seb Duggan)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:53:21 +0100
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
2Message-ID: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>


KDoes anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and below

for OS X?

LI've successfully divided my CSS into basic version, which gets read by all
Mbrowsers, and more advanced CSS, which gets read by browsers that understand
M@import. This works perfectly in every browser I've thrown it at - including
4the betas of OmniWeb 4.5, based on Apple's WebCore.

MUnfortunately, OmniWeb 4.2 understands @import, but hasn't a clue about what
to do with the CSS afterwards.

MIs there a CSS-based way of hiding styles from OmniWeb? Or would I be better
Loff detecting the user-agent on the server - and then add any other problem
browsers to my detection list?


Seb
]
l13:43:46.075 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.075 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:09:17 +0900
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
3In-Reply-To: <1160748345-3816664@pointinspace.com>
=Message-ID: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 01:21  AM, Rick Hurst wrote:

I> for some reason this layout is missing the left border when displayed 
E> in IE5 mac. The odd thing is that the space has been left for the 
L> border, but no colour is showing. Any ideas why, or how I might fix > it?
>
/> http://www.hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.htm

EYour <div id="myclear"> is empty, except for an absolute positioned 
Himage (which is taken out of the document flow any way). I deleted the 
F'width' on your #myclear, and added a non-breaking space in the div, 
;and then your layout worked out exactly as in Mozilla 1.4.

	Philippe

:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
>IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>]
l13:43:46.075 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.076 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:09:30 +0900
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
3In-Reply-To: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
=Message-ID: <7B1D8EC7-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 08:53  PM, Seb Duggan wrote:

H> Does anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and 
> below
> for OS X?

:I use <link rel="stylesheet"............media="Screen" />
(note the capital S)
D<http://www.macedition.com/cb/resources/macbrowsercsssupport.html>,
scroll down to the bottom.

	Philippe

:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
>IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>]
l13:43:46.076 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.076 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: WebHead at wi.rr.com (Arlen Walker)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 08:47:55 -0500
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
8In-Reply-To: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
=Message-ID: <D971F63A-78B6-11D7-A71B-0003934B1B7A@wi.rr.com>


@On Saturday, April 26, 2003, at 01:52  PM, Matthew Davey wrote:

J> Works fine in all win browsers I've been able to download, no Mac, and 
> Linux
H> till I get a spare day, so if any one with either of these platforms 
> could
)> check it for me, I'd be most grateful.

JNot bad. Suffers from the "phantom right margin" bug in IE5/Mac, because 
Iyour "linksright" div is right-poistioned within 16px of the right edge 
Fof the viewport. When this happens, IE5/Mac adds another 16px to the 
Gwidth, forcing horizontal scrollbars when none are needed. Fix is not 
Jpositioning it within 16 px of the edge and optionally giving a negative 
$right margin to move the text over.

=Also center column is a tad lower than the two outside ones.

ABoth of these are minor cosmetics, the second one could even be 
Econsidered an intentional design choice (the "asymmetry adds visual 
Jinterest" bit). Positioned as it is below the subtitle for your site, it 
@actually works better than uniform starting positions, I think.

HThen again, I always liked comic books with non-square panels, as well.


Have fun,
Arlen

-----
.In God We Trust, all others must supply data]
l13:43:46.076 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.076 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css at nextw3.net (Marcello Armand-Pilon)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:42:17 +0200
,Subject: [css-d] IE Win positioning problem
:Message-ID: <3E8423B100919A0B@smtp12.cp.tin.it> (added by
	postmaster@virgilio.it)

Hi all,

�I am working on a site that displays correctly in a variety of browsers under Mac and Win, except IE6 Win. Sorry if I cannot provide a URL, 'cause I'm still working locally, but here's the main DIV that's causing the poblem:

#mainframe {
	position: absolute;
	text-align: center;
	width: 800px;
	margin: 0px 0px 0px 20px;
	padding: 0;
	text-align: left;
	}

�With all the browsers I have tested so far, the left margin is anchored 20px far from the browser left side, but IE6 Win add a huge 400px margin (more or less) on the left side. If I change the position from absolute to relative, things run better, but the content is then liquid, while I want it to stay 20px from the browser left side, and don't move.

[I'm sure this matter has been discussed already, but any help would be gratly appreciated.

Thanks, Marcello
:From chris at placenamehere.com  Sun Apr 27 17:55:27 2003
2From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:55:27 -0400
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
3In-Reply-To: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
5Message-ID: <BAD183BF.53C5C%chris@placenamehere.com>

?on 4/27/03 7:53 AM, Seb Duggan at outlaw@joseywales.com wrote:

O> Unfortunately, OmniWeb 4.2 understands @import, but hasn't a clue about what
!> to do with the CSS afterwards.
>

LThere's a point at which a user needs to be reminded they're using a flawed
Lproduct by seeing things break. Most site builders don't have the luxury of
Kputting NN4, IE, Safari or Moz in that category due to the politics of the
Imarketplace. I consider OmniWeb 4.2- as the exception for a few reasons:

K* OmniWeb users as a whole seem to be the types that are more impressed by
JUI features and control then they are with presentation of content. While
IOmniGroup doesn't promote the fact that their rendering engine is behind
Mthey don't cover the fact up at all. They maintain a more active part in the
Kgeneral user community then any browser vendor I know and they are very in
Ftune with the interface features that users are looking for. The only
Mcompelling reason (to date) to use OmniWeb is was for its interface options.
JAs a result, using the terminology of another recent thread, I would as a
Mrule consider OmniWeb users to be "clued" and able to roll with the punches.

J* The OmniGroup folks are good people who know their product is flawed in
Lterms of CSS. For some time now they have had plans to rewrite their engine
Kso haven't totally overhauled their current NN4-like engine, but even with
Kthat in mind they have always (IMExperience) been quick to fix errors that
Jcaused the loss of access to a site. So in many ways having a broken page
/has made the browser better in the short term.


MSo given that OW is a currently active development project (unlike NN4), and
Kits users are as a (my) rule the informed type (which is unheard of in all
Lother situations) and keep on top of software updates, I generally take the
Cstance that a site for a general audience should do very little to
accommodate OW users.

GPlease don't try and convince me that I'm wrong here, the above wasn't
Kintended to convince anyone of anything. Just thought it be appropriate to
Gstate my (formed after 2 yrs of watching this very open community-like
Eproject, cause I'm a software geek that way) position on the matter.

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
1[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]]
l13:43:46.076 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.076 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: derek at derekrogerson.com (Derek R)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 15:06:46 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
$In-Reply-To: <3EAB0B41.2FD9@ij.net>
7Message-ID: <001101c30cf0$27e7e8a0$96a95bd1@satellite>

	  
Somebody said:
,>| I did 100% at one point and got an equal
/>| amount of suggestions from users to reduce 
7>| or enlarge the default size as I do now. Go figure?


IIt is my experience that designers tend to make their font-size as small
Gas possible simply because the content which the font-size contains is
)largely, if not entirely, communicative.

=This is to say, most blogs/websites/news-stories etc have no
Einformation/knowledge to offer so ostentatious exhibition is instead
9brought in to disguise --or make up for-- the absence of
Dcontent/substance, which is plainly absent when one reads the words
(i.e. it is communicative).

AIt is very much like Western/European culture in general, or say
EHollywood promotions, where what is promoted (the movie/tv-show, for
Hinstance) is, upon real experience/inspection [i.e. sitting through the
Aentirety of the production] not-at-all-worth-the-time-spent, but
Deverybody-else-is-doing-it, so the tendency (fear) is not to appear
oppositional.

HSmall-font designers treat their text like greek-text, which is to say,
Cif they were to expand it and make it much larger-in-size it would
Ibecome *painfully* obvious just what is being said (nothing worthwhile).

ITo provide the /appearance/ of intelligence, relevance, and/or pleasure,
Gthe designer uses small font-sizes to mask the content itself, thereby
Gsaving-face through obscuring what the designer knows to be valueless.

GThis is the same as people who wear message t-shirts or highly-visible
Dbranded clothing, who, by diverting attention to the message on the
Bmaterial one is wearing, obscures the wearer (the person) thereby
Hsaving-face and avoiding the pain of being responsible for who-they-are
(don't look in my eyes).  

IThis is not to say most everything online or in Western/European culture
Hhas nothing genuine to say or lacks value, indeed, this is exactly what
>I'm saying, but, rather, that *revelation* of this absence of
Isense/content is, its own medicine, so to speak, so that the sight of it
makes one account for it.

EIn summary, a larger font-size (say 100% ~ the whole tamale) is more
Hprominent than the usual smaller font-sizes one encounters, which is to
Bsay larger is bigger, which no doubt will cause attention to come
forward (to the content).

EThe real question is what are you saying (substance) and why are you
Htrying to hide it? (I understand ostentatious exhibition is largely the
'substance of Western/European design).


AThis email is a characterization of a generalization (seething).


+__________________________________________
"Chant down Babylon"
	 
	 ]
l13:43:46.076 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.076 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: tl at abhalfdan.dk (Torben Linde)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:57:11 +0200
8Subject: [css-d] IE missing borders on inline list menu
6Message-ID: <20030427195711.28518@smtp.gnbolignet.dk>

Hello

BI have made a tab-like menu for this page: www.bryggenet.dk using
Funordered lists with inline li's. The page is valid xhtml 1.0 and css
(except the forum area).

HThe menus are located in div class="menua" and div class="menub". menua
<is the tabs and menub is a submenu on the page of each tab.

<The css-file is here: www.bryggenet.dk/layout/bryggenet.css

JThis works well in Mozilla and Safari, but the tab-like look is dependant
)on changes in border color on the li's. 
JIE/win will not show the top and bottom border on these elements and that
ruins the tab-effect somewhat.

8Is there any way to make IE show the borders correctly?

JI have tried to do the menus with left-floated divs instead but so far it
has not worked too well.



Torben Linde]
l13:43:46.076 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.076 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:42:10 +0100
0Subject: [css-d] 3Col_NN4_FMFM and IE 6 problem
3Message-ID: <l03130300bad1d4c8a3aa@[192.168.1.36]>

K>Hi Scott - I snagged Alex's layout and played for awhile with this, and I
M>could get a number of variations on visible and invisible images, depending
L>on where I put the image, or what it was or was not inside, as well as the
>size of the image

IJust a quick note since I'm unfortunately tied up with mountains of work
Eand attempting to resuscitate my iBook which is dying the death of a
Aseemingly infinite number of colourful (and colourless) screens.

JAs Holly points out, it's not too hard to make css layouts fall over. The
Gpage can't take in to account all possible bugs and flaws and it's not
Emeant to just be used as is - it's not a substitute for the dull and
;thankless task of checking accross platforms and browsers.

JThat said, I'll try and pursue Holly's line of enquiries as to under what
0precise circumstances things can vanish in IE6.

EAll I can suggest (untested since I have no IE6 at themoment) did is
Esetting the image's position to relative. Nested divs in this layout
Drequire that and maybe images that fit the exact width need it too.
LAlternatively you could increase the width of the right hand column and set
its margin

JAnyhow when I've got a copy of IE6 again I'll investigate and also see if
Mthe pure float model (FFFF rather than FMFM) suffers from the same problems.

]
l13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:32:11 +0100
*Subject: [css-d] OmniWeb (Mac) CSS hiding
>In-Reply-To: <7B1D8EC7-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
2References: <1051444403.6201@tweek.sebduggan.com>
3Message-ID: <l03130301bad1f7eee1c5@[192.168.0.36]>

H>> Does anyone know of a way of hiding stylesheets from OmniWeb 4.2 and
	>> below
>> for OS X?

GThere is another way to hide CSS from OmniWeb which doesn't rely on an
.external files like the Codebitch method does

<<http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/test/OmniWebInlineHack.mhtml>

JI'd guess that OmniWeb 4.5 with it's all new rendering engine will now do
Kthe right thing (can't check that myself so any reports on that gratefully

received)
]
l13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: peter.williams at hendersons.com.au (Peter Williams)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:36:58 +1000
6Subject: [css-d] Content width (was: ems or percent?)
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
LMessage-ID: <NBBBKHLHIPAOABOPCOCBEEGJAKAB.peter.williams@hendersons.com.au>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Thomas
> 
D> I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but, one of my pet hates 
B> is sites which spread their text across the whole width of the 
> window. 
> 
3> So there is an argument for using something like
> 
$> 	div.text { max-width:33em; ... }
> 
A> to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of 
> the user's screen.
> 

=I've worked on line lengths of 43 chars in the past as being
=comfortable for reading. Just last week I used the max-width
9directive to prevent text running off to the right in an
=unconstrained manner. It only works in some browsers though.
;I've really started to try to use w3c standards and ignore
?browser quirks and issues where possible for my intranet work.
CUnless a page is rendered unusable in either Moz or IE5 and higher
=I'll go with a clean, standard HTML 4 Strict or XHTML markup
<and some CSS these days. Our public web site is a different
Akettle of fish though, I'll make sure that works well in as many
Bbrowsers as possible, although I won't use non-validating markup.

<flame class="low crackle">
ANew windows of a size chosen by the page author are abhorent :-)
	</flame>

--
Peter Williams]
l13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:01:24 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
<Message-ID: <000001c30d08$8ea98680$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>

	Hi guys,
 
@I have done pretty much all I can with my client's new site in 
@css. (I know I have used tables in a couple of places, but that
:was for avoiding IE problems with small screen widths ...
and time constraints)
 
*I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera, 

Mac IE 5?
 
>Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
.MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
 
Thanks ...
 
,... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
 
http://www.golfbreaks.com/
 
--
Sam Ellis - 
7From RHulse at radionz.co.nz  Sun Apr 27 23:36:54 2003
.From: RHulse at radionz.co.nz (Richard Hulse)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:36:54 +1200
&Subject: [css-d] Unfixing fixed menus
4Message-ID: <sead0460.099@rnz03.wgtn.radionz.co.nz>

+I have posted this on WD-L for discussion.

HI'm posting it here as it is of interest, even is slightly OT due the =
javascript content.

	regards,
Richard
%=AF---------------------------------
>I have taken Eric Bednarz' example of fixed areas in IE at=20

"http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/

(and applied it to this sub-site at RNZ:

&http://www.radionz.co.nz/digitallife/

MIt worked quite well but for one main issue - when the width of the screen =
Mis too narrow the scoll bar dissappears. I'm not sure if this can be fixed =
by tweaking the CSS files.

LAnyway, as is always the case with fixed menus, if the window is not high =
(enough you lose the bottom of the menu.

KI have come up with a little JS that fixes both the problem. It works in =
,Moz and IE 5/6. on PC (not sure about Mac).

=In moz if the browser is too short then it unfixes the menu.
MIn IE it unfixes the menu, and re-fixes it if the browser is returned to a =
suitable size.

FThe JS relys on the IE style sheet having a title (which IE ignores).

.Any suggestions and improvements appreciated.
]
l13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:43:12 +0100
!Subject: [css-d] Problem layouts
;Message-ID: <022269AB-790A-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


Hello,

GI've been using CSS for a while now and I'm beginning to feel that it 
Gdoesn't quite offer me the design toolbox I need. During almost every 
Dproject I work on there is a period of hacking with CSS to get the 
Edesired results. While most of this is due to browser bugs, I think 
/that in some situations CSS lacks design nous.

GI think that one of the reasons that CSS layout is being adopted very 
Eslowly (1 major site to date) is because it doesn't make it easy to 
Hrebuild your pages in the new syntax. Of course it's mainly because of 
Hbad browsers and the continuing use of legacy browsers that's to blame.

HI'm trying to put together a list of problem layouts that people often 
Fwant to build but can't do so simply. The worst one is positioning a 
Eblock element at the centre of the browser window. I know there are 
Flots of ways to achieve or almost achieve the required effect, using 
G100% tables, margin:auto; or other options, but these are non-trivial 
9solutions and use syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.

@If you have come across situations where CSS doesn't offer the 
Eexpressiveness you feel it should, please let me know either on- or 

off-list.

EI apologise if you are also a member of www-style and have received 
this request twice.

Thanks,

Ben


(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
$	See http://aftnn.org/ for details]
l13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:02:51 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
;Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>

Hi everyone,

KI searched the list archives for an answer but couldn't find one, so it's 
$either well hidden or non-existent.

MI can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a global font size. 
IHere's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as IE6 in all 

cases)...

-On a page with no other styling, I did this:

      body {font-size: .7em}

MIn Mozilla, all my text is exactly the size I expected and wanted it to be. 
KIn IE6, there's no effect. The font size stays at the default 1em (100% / 
16px).

=So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:

      body {font-size: .7em}
      td {font-size: .7em}

MThis puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule text 
that Superman couldn't read.


KSo I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing 
Kis styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers - 
aren't they?....

"      (no body styling this time)
      td {font-size: .7em}

GThat looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a 
strong pair of glasses.


HAll I want is to set a global font size, and make other sizing changes 
(where necessary. So what's the secret?]
l13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.077 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:14:58 -0500
!Subject: [css-d] Problem layouts
<In-Reply-To: <022269AB-790A-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>
3Message-ID: <000001c30d2b$fb536fd0$42d5fea9@Estes>


> 
=> I'm trying to put together a list of problem layouts that 
> people often 
H> want to build but can't do so simply. The worst one is positioning a 
G> block element at the centre of the browser window. I know there are 
H> lots of ways to achieve or almost achieve the required effect, using 
I> 100% tables, margin:auto; or other options, but these are non-trivial 
;> solutions and use syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.
> 

GWhile I'm sure that you are about to get flamed by people, and rightly
6so, I just want to address one part of your position.

CYou stated in you thread above that margin:auto, was a non-trivial
:solution that uses syntax in ways it wasn't designed for.

"The CSS1 Spec specifically says :

F"Otherwise, if both 'margin-left' and 'margin-right' are 'auto', they
Ewill be set to equal values. This will center the element inside its

parent. "

GWhich means that it is exactly what it is intended to do, and with /2/
Hlines of code which could be simplified to /one/ line of code.  You set
Hmargin-left and margin-right to auto and it centers and that's how that
Gis accomplished.  If you are using other methods, then you are the one
Edoing it wrong not CSS.  That's "non-trivial"?...seems pretty simple
enough to me.

GOn another note, I find that my development efforts have been twice as
Ceasy as in traditional table layouts, and that most 'hacks' can be
Iavoided in many if not all circumstances by using a wee bit more code in
:your code.  You can review my "To hack or not to Hack" at
9http://www.bewb.org/archiveposts.asp?id=11, to read why.

FI feel (as the Lead Creative Artists and Lead Interface Developer for
Ethe company I work for) that I have much more freedom in design than
Hwhen I was faced with supporting legacy browsers.  I have intentionally
Dstepped up my designs because I know that with the power of CSS and
GXHTML, I can produce more vivid content in a more beatiful manner, all
Cwhile providing consistent renderings and with less code than ever
thought possible.

IOn one last note (and I said I was only addressing one point), there are
2quite a few "major" sites adopting CSS layouts.  

To name a few:
http://www.cingular.com 
http://www.search.yahoo.com 
http://www.pga.com 
http://www.wired.com 
http://www.espn.com


HWell anyway, I haven't found that there has been anything that I wanted
Ito create and couldn't because of the limitations of CSS and XHTML.  And
Hwith the additional support of CSS2 and then CSS3, we'll have even more
(to work with, and I for one can't wait!

Good luck to ya'

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
 

]
l13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:17:39 -0500
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
<In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
3Message-ID: <000101c30d2c$5b0e6ce0$42d5fea9@Estes>


DThis is from the wiki http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsingEms

GA word of caution concerning IE. Be careful using ems. The most recent
Fversions of IE for Windows tend to flummox text with a font-size less
@than 1em ("0.5em", for instance). Percentages tend to work more
Gpredictably, and (for who knows what reason) are usually more accurate
H(possibly rounding errors?) than their em equivalents. Please note that
Ithis applies only to the font-size and line-height properties. All other
Cproperties for which ems are suitable (margins, padding, width and
Gheight, among others) are not so for percentages, since the latter are
Hcalculated according to the dimensions of parent elements. - ShawnAllen

H...and the other problem with EMs in IE is the resizing of them. If for
?instance you set the root element (either <body> or <html>) to
Ifont-size:1em, then just setting View > Text Size to "smaller" can cause
the text to become unreadable.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
 


> -----Original Message-----
-> From: css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org 
G> [mailto:css-d-bounces@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Joel Young
'> Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 8:03 PM
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
1> Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
> 
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
@> I searched the list archives for an answer but couldn't find 
> one, so it's 
&> either well hidden or non-existent.
> 
=> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a 
> global font size. 
@> Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as 
> IE6 in all 
> cases)...
> 
/> On a page with no other styling, I did this:
> 
>       body {font-size: .7em}
> 
>> In Mozilla, all my text is exactly the size I expected and 
> wanted it to be. 
A> In IE6, there's no effect. The font size stays at the default 
> 1em (100% / 
	> 16px).
> 
?> So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:
> 
>       body {font-size: .7em}
>       td {font-size: .7em}
> 
@> This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into 
> miniscule text 
> that Superman couldn't read.
> 
> 
?> So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since 
> all I'm doing 
>> is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in 
> all browsers - 
> aren't they?....
> 
$>       (no body styling this time)
>       td {font-size: .7em}
> 
I> That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a 
> strong pair of glasses.
> 
> 
;> All I want is to set a global font size, and make other 
> sizing changes 
)> where necessary. So what's the secret?
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
-> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org] 
6> http://www.css-> discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
> Supported 
> by evolt.org -- 
+> http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> 

]
l13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: stephen.thomas at adelaide.edu.au (Steve Thomas)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:55:42 +0930
Subject: [css-d] Content width
0In-Reply-To: <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
5References: <BAD07302.53B81%chris@placenamehere.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304261437210.26529-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
?	<3EAB0AF0.8040002@gci.net> <3EAB63D1.4050407@adelaide.edu.au>
/Message-ID: <3EAC9126.6030101@adelaide.edu.au>

Steve Thomas wrote:

> ...
>
3> So there is an argument for using something like
>
'>     div.text { max-width:33em; ... }
>
E> to limit the width of a text block, regardless of the size of the 
> user's screen. 

HExperimentally, I've created a new ebook with a slight variation to my 
Hstandard style sheet, to see how this looks and works in practice. You 
Dcan see the result at http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/h/h27ro/

%The style sheet now reads (in part):

BODY {
-        margin-left: 3em; margin-right: 2em;
-        color: #000000; background: #ffffff;
}
/html>body { max-width:33em; margin:1em auto; }

EThe last line is the new bit, and this appears to work perfectly in 
DMozilla 1.3/Win. (Also prints beautifully.) It also displays OK on 
GIE6/Win, although the max-width doesn't work. Maybe "html>body" isn't 
Himplemented on IE6? (Can't find that browser compatibility chart right 
now -- too many bookmarks!)

HThis approach also means that it will display OK on NN4, which ignores 
the last line (I guess).

MI'd appreciate some feedback from those with Macs and/or different browsers.


	Regards,
Steve

-- 

Stephen Thomas, 
Senior Systems Analyst, 
University of Adelaide Library
UNIVERSITY OF ADELAIDE SA 5005

AUSTRALIA
+Tel: +61 8 8303 5190  Fax: +61 8 8303 4369
'Email: stephen.thomas@adelaide.edu.au 
2URL: http://www.library.adelaide.edu.au/~sthomas/
]
l13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:26:22 -0500
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
<In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
3Message-ID: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>

 
<> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a
> global font size. 
@> Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the same as 
> IE6 in all 
> cases)...
> 

GI tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
7.1 on WinXP


<style type="text/css">
body,td {font-size:0.7em;}
	</style>


GBasically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
Hdoesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
Opera

Looks good in all of them.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


]
l13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:04:07 -0400
Subject: [css-d] Content width
0In-Reply-To: <3EAC9126.6030101@adelaide.edu.au>
7Message-ID: <003101c30d32$d59a2200$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>

>  Steve Thomas :
"> <snip> Maybe "html>body" isn't 
> implemented on IE6? 

INope, IE ignores the html>body selector entirely... For sure on Win, and
Hif I remember correctly (which is always a gamble at this hour) also on
*Mac.  Reference the common Box Model Hack
6http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html.

--Josh
]
l13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:10:16 -0400
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
=In-Reply-To: <000001c30d08$8ea98680$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>
7Message-ID: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Sam  Ellis (css-d) :
,> I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera, 
> Mac IE 5?
>  
@> Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
0> MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
>  
> Thanks ...
>  
.> ... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
>  
http://www.golfbreaks.com/

ICan't help with the Mac/Unix issues, sorry.  Hit your site with IE6 (Win
IXP) and thought it was a very sharp lookin' design!  Good work.  But hit
Hit with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
Ithe page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
need, lemme know.

--Josh
]
l13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.078 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:16:35 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
;Message-ID: <D17FA29E-7927-11D7-98B0-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


7Looks good in Safari Beta 2 and Camino 0.7 on the Mac.

EIn IE 5 on OS X it looks good except the title area of the Featured 
IVenues portlet has gone awry, it is the height of the picture and fully 
Dcontains the image. I can provide a screenshot if you send me your 
;address (I joined the list after you posted your request).

Ben


FOn Monday, Apr 28, 2003, at 04:10 Europe/London, Josh Ambrutis wrote:

>
>
>> Sam  Ellis (css-d) :
,>> I have tested in Win NS 4+, IE3+, Opera,
>> Mac IE 5?
>>
A>> Please could someone give the site a quick once-over in other
1>> MAC / UNIX browsers that I have no access to.
>>
>> Thanks ...
>>
/>> ... The address - nearly forgot to post it:
>>
> http://www.golfbreaks.com/
>
G> Can't help with the Mac/Unix issues, sorry.  Hit your site with IE6 
> (Win
H> XP) and thought it was a very sharp lookin' design!  Good work.  But 
> hit
J> it with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
H> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if 
> you
> need, lemme know.
>
	> --Josh
>
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
$	See http://aftnn.org/ for details]
l13:43:46.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:29:33 +0900
Subject: [css-d] Content width
8In-Reply-To: <003101c30d32$d59a2200$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
=Message-ID: <A0FFF166-7929-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


>On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 12:04  PM, Josh Ambrutis wrote:

H> Nope, IE ignores the html>body selector entirely... For sure on Win, 
> and
J> if I remember correctly (which is always a gamble at this hour) also on
,> Mac.  Reference the common Box Model Hack
8> http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html.

GIE Mac does support html>body no problems. IE win does not understand 
the > child selector.

	Philippe
:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
>IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>]
l13:43:46.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:31:16 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
4In-Reply-To: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

(At 11:26 PM 4/27/03, Jason Estes wrote:

H>I tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
>7.1 on WinXP
>
>
><style type="text/css">
>body,td {font-size:0.7em;}

></style>
>
>
H>Basically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
I>doesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
>Opera
>
>Looks good in all of them.



IFor some reason that's not working for me, and I'm using WinXP with the 
Lsame browser versions you listed.  I have the IE browser set to 'Smaller', 
Kand Moz at '100%', which I believe are their defaults. Or not? But still, 
Lresizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no 
clue.

JThe other thing is, and I should've mentioned this before, my tests were 
Gonly with no other styling in <body>, but for the actual page I'll be 
Kdoing, <body> will contain more than that, and I don't want the <td>'s to 
=have all those attributes. Sorry for not saying that before.

IIt's late where I am, so I'll pick this up tomorrow and see what's what.

Thanks!

Joel

]
l13:43:46.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 23:44:12 -0400
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
;References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
:	<5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
#Message-ID: <3EACA38C.2134@ij.net>

Joel Young wrote:
 
J> For some reason that's not working for me, and I'm using WinXP with the
M> same browser versions you listed.  I have the IE browser set to 'Smaller',
L> and Moz at '100%', which I believe are their defaults. Or not? But still,

FMoz defaults to 16px regardless of other settings. Moz font sizes are
Hnot impacted by system DPI setting except for the menu/chrome text, and
page text sized in points.

HIE defaults to medium. What medium (or other sizes) means to IE depends
Eon the system DPI setting, which defaults to 96. Medium at 96 DPI is
)16px. You can find other combinations at
;http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/absolute-sizes-IE6.html

M> resizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no
> clue.

*Are you using an ancient Mozilla version?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

@Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html]
l13:43:46.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: webapprentice at onemain.com (Webapprentice)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:01:59 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
+Message-ID: <3EACA7B7.3070805@onemain.com>

Hello,

3I have a question about the use of width property.

8Look at this site in IE5.5+, Mozilla 1.0+, NS6.2+, etc.

+http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html

HThe middle white area, where there is a link to "See the style sheet," 
Iis not stretched all the way.  I'd like to stretch the white area so it 
?almost reaches the right white area but not colliding with it.

CI've tried "width: auto" and "width: 100%," but this doesn't work.

AI'm trying to mimic the final look with as much CSS as possible:
*http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/final.jpg

EYou can click the link "See the style sheet" to view the stylesheet.
!Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
	Stephen]
l13:43:46.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: nkaisare1 at hotmail.com (Niket Kaisare)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:20:40 +0000
;Subject: [css-d] Navigation links - list? (and Site Check)
6Message-ID: <Law14-F682aZcdjaS3600023087@hotmail.com>

Hi,

HI have four images (150*70px) as main navigation links and a list as a 
/sub-navigation. Currently, I have the links as
<div>
<a href=""><img></a>
#<ul><!-- List of sublinks --></ul>
<a href=""><img></a><br>
<a href=""><img></a><br>
<a href=""><img></a>
</div>

LI read on accessibility issues that there should be something other than a 
K<br> space or carriage return separating various links for accessibility. 
JHence I tried changing the main links also to a list. But the problem is 
'that in NS4.7, it gets displayed like:
  ---------
  | IMAGE |
* ---------
!(where * represents list marker)

HThis is no good because the display becomes confusing. It will be much 
better if display would be:
* ---------
  | IMAGE |
  ---------

+Second thing is that the page does a FOUC 
M(http://www.bluerobot.com/web/css/fouc.asp) I tried the method mentioned in 
Athis article, but that didn't help... I still get FOUC in Opera.

URL for the specific page:
$http://atlanta.vibha.org/volunteer/
CSS for this page:
(http://atlanta.vibha.org/image/real.css

LAlso, this is my first project using CSS. So any suggestions for improving 
will be appreciated.

TIA
Niket

B_________________________________________________________________
<Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
2http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail]
l13:43:46.079 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:21:23 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
,Message-ID: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>

HAnyone here that plays on blogshares has probably noticed already that 
GSeyed (the owner) changed the navigation images to text the other day 
G(most likely to speed up load-time).  This led to an experiment on my 
Ipart to see how much I could clean up the code.  I started from scratch 
Jto make the Blogshares stock page[1] and ended up with a version that is 
Gvalid XHTML 1.0 Strict, 10kb smaller (20kb smaller if you include the 
Hsupporting images/javascript), fluid-width, relative font sizes (I did 
Fwhat was easiest, perhaps not the best method, so don't go off on me 
Ilike that ems vs % thread), and more Netscape-friendly (it's still ugly 
2and not easy to use, but at least it's readable).

HI'm mainly looking for a browser check. I've got Firebird (yesterday's 
Fnightly) and IE6, but I need others... especially Macs.  I know that 
DIE/Mac has a huge horiz. scroll due to the stock ticker, but there 
Edoesn't seem to be any way to fix that without causing all kinds of 
other problems.

FIf you've got any comments on the layout unrelated to the browser or 
*CSS, let me know anyway (maybe offlist?).

I[Note: I do not work for Blogshares. Seyed hasn't even seen this layout 
Byet, although I emailed him just before sending this to the list]

--
Marshall Roch

[1] 
Lhttp://www.blogshares.com/blogs.php?blog=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blogshares.com%2F
]
l13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 00:43:24 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
-In-Reply-To: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
,References: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
,Message-ID: <3EACB16C.4020309@exclupen.com>

Marshall Roch wrote:
J> I'm mainly looking for a browser check. I've got Firebird (yesterday's 
H> nightly) and IE6, but I need others... especially Macs.  I know that 
F> IE/Mac has a huge horiz. scroll due to the stock ticker, but there 
G> doesn't seem to be any way to fix that without causing all kinds of 
> other problems.

4Easier to help me if I include a link, huh?  Oops..

-http://www.exclupen.com/projects/blogshares/

--
Marshall Roch
]
l13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: tbounds at gci.net (Tony Bounds)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:48:39 -0800
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
,References: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com>
'Message-ID: <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>


Marshall,
HOn ie5.1.5mac the 'GO' button is shifted underneath the input field on 
Jyour search form. Also, the background is missing to the left of the top 
Fbanner leaving a blank white space. The ticker is missing completely.

IOn ns7.02mac the ticker is overlayed atop the blue 'Fantasy Blog Shares 
JMarket' rule and is unreadable. It also takes up so many cpu cycles that 
9its making typing this creep along slowly and painfully.
--
Tony]
l13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:24:17 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <000001c30d57$30f3b660$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


>  
> http://www.golfbreaks.com/

J> it with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
K> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
> need, lemme know.

Thanks for the heads up.

LI had only checked with Opera 6, and I think I changed the css for that bar
recently - since testing

Sam

]
l13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: sasha at amm.com.au (Sasha Gerrand)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:30:57 +1000
8Subject: [css-d] Re: Moovigation - a screenshot request
8In-Reply-To: <oproadf2zb98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>
-Message-ID: <BAD315D1.BFD0%sasha@amm.com.au>

Try these:

3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-camino1.jpg
3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-camino1.jpg

3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-safari1.jpg
3http://203.56.191.1:6660/literarymoose-safari2.jpg

HTH - both on OS X 10.2.5

Cheers,
Sasha

--=AD--=AD--=AD--=AD--
Sasha Gerrand
sasha@amm.com.au
+61 425 745 207

EOM=20

MNOTICE - This message and any attached files may contain information that i=
s
Lconfidential and/or subject of legal privilege intended only for use by the
Hintended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient or the person
Mresponsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, be advise=
d
Ithat you have received this message in error and that any dissemination,
Jcopying or use of this message or attachment is strictly forbidden, as is
Mthe disclosure of the information therein. If you have received this messag=
e
Fin error please notify the sender immediately and delete the message.

-> From: The Moose <moose@literarymoose.info>
#> Organization: LiteraryMoose.info
%> Reply-To: moose@literarymoose.info
(> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 06:41:52 -0500
"> To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
6> Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
>=20
	> Hello,
>=20
L> I have played a bit with the display of the unordered lists when they are
L> used for navigation of a logical sequence of pages, and would like to ask
C> for screenshots from the following browsers: *Safari*, *Camino*,
> *Konqueror*.
>=20
F> There are two pages (I'd like to get screenshots for both from each
> browser):
>=20
=> http://www.literarymoose.info/=3D/destroy/moovigation.html
>=20
E> http://www.literarymoose.info/=3D/destroy/moovigation-variant.html
>=20
G> The first features generated content (with entities only) hidden via
L> html[xmlns] method, the second does not. Mozilla displays &#xxxx; instead
M> of the character on the second page (I don't know why). Opera7.1 behaves =
in
> both cases.
>=20
F> The size of screenshots does not matter, I'll be watching my inbox.
>=20
> thank you in advance,
>=20
	> Wojtek
>=20
> p.s. styles embedded.
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>=20]
l13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:34:47 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <003201c30d33$b188c690$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <000101c30d58$af49ac30$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


J> .. with Opera 7, and your left nav area disappears and the link text on
K> the page becomes completely unreadable.  I can upload screenshots if you
> need, lemme know.

> -- Josh

;Just downloaded Opera 7.1 and I cannot see the problem ...

HIt looks as if your version of Opera is looking at the print stylesheet
E(try print previewing). What version are you using? It would be very
Guseful to see screenshots. Does anyone else know about Opera rendering
#css from a media=print stylesheet?

1.. maybe it is my use of the !important rule...?

FThe only issue I can see is that the text on the Features Venues goes
Cover the Request Brochure images (because of position: relative to
avoid the ie6 peekaboo bug)

Thanks

Sam
]
l13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:42:17 +0200
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
4In-Reply-To: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
3References: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
)Message-ID: <oprobw0rt0yoq9u9@localhost>

JOn Sun, 27 Apr 2003 21:26:22 -0500, Jason Estes <ckestes@bewb.org> wrote:

=>> I can't get Mozilla and IE6 PC to compromise on setting a
K>> global font size. Here's what I did to test (and btw, Opera 7 acts the 
 >> same as IE6 in all cases)...

HIn Opera 7 and MSIE, you'll get behavior like Mozilla when you trigger 
KStandards mode. In Quirks mode rendering, font-sizes don't inherit into a 
Htables... In Opera 5-6 and MSIE 4-5.5 you are stuck, as these browsers 
don't have a Standards mode.

I> I tested this and it seemed to work in both IE 6 and Moz 1.3 and Opera
> 7.1 on WinXP
>
> <style type="text/css">
> body,td {font-size:0.7em;}
> </style>
>
I> Basically I just set both properties in the same statement and then it
J> doesn't inherit it in size it more in Moz, and stays constant in IE and
> Opera
>
> Looks good in all of them.

MIt shouldn't work that way according to the specs (TD fonts should be sized 
Lat .49 of the default size...), so it will probably break in Opera 7, MSIE 
H6 and Mozilla when you trigger Standards mode. But if you make sure to 
Ktrigger Quirks mode, this might be a compromise because it will also work 
in MSIE 4-5.5 and Opera 4-6.

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
A making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com M]
l13:43:46.080 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: design at q7design.demon.co.uk (David Leader)
&Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 22:35:04 +0100
0Subject: [css-d] OT: Stats for browsers on Mac?
6Message-ID: <p04330100bad1fbd43502@[194.222.231.193]>

DOn the topic of Safari uptake on MacOS X, I'd just like to mention 
Fthat at the moment Safari is the only Mac browser that supports Java 
C1.4. (I was suprised when I read this on a Mac Java list but I've 
Etested it and find that currently IE and Mozilla do not support the 
EJava 1.4 plugin) This may have nothing to do with css, but it has a 
Elot to do with the sort of reasons Mac users might switch to Safari 
Band why I presume Apple decided to have its own browser, i.e. to 
Densure Mac users were not dependent on third parties for access to 
$web content (e.g. on-line banking).

<It is clearly important from a css standpoint that as much 
Fconstructive criticism as possible is brought to bear to ensure that 
ESafari has good css support. One imagines Apple and the Safari will 
be receptive to this.

David
8From rick at starskiweb.co.uk  Mon Apr 28 09:10:55 2003
,From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:10:55 +0100
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
>In-Reply-To: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
=References: <73BC372E-78B1-11D7-8BC9-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>
0Message-ID: <3EACE20F.6030806@starskiweb.co.uk>

Philippe Wittenbergh wrote:

G> Your <div id="myclear"> is empty, except for an absolute positioned 
J> image (which is taken out of the document flow any way). I deleted the 
L> 'width' on your #myclear, and added a non-breaking space in the div, and 
9> then your layout worked out exactly as in Mozilla 1.4.

FThanks for the advice Philippe, but I haven't managed to get mine to 
work using the above advice:-

+http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.2.htm

,The left border is still missing on IE5 mac

Iunless the person who is testing this for me has a different version of 

mac IE5?]
l13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:46:49 +0900
-Subject: [css-d] border-left IE5 mac problem
1In-Reply-To: <3EACE20F.6030806@starskiweb.co.uk>
=Message-ID: <F34BB1E0-7955-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


;On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 05:10  PM, Rick Hurst wrote:

H> Thanks for the advice Philippe, but I haven't managed to get mine to 
 > work using the above advice:-
>
-> http://hypothecate.co.uk/css_test/v8.2.htm
>
.> The left border is still missing on IE5 mac

,Comparing your stylesheet, and what I used:
#document-wrap {
	border-top:12px solid black;
	border-left:12px solid black;
	/*height: 100%;*/
}

II had commented out the height declaration, I should've mentioned it, I 
guess.

	Philippe
:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
>IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>]
l13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:19:14 -0300
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428000924.00bc40c8@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
3References: <000201c30d2d$92a14dc0$42d5fea9@Estes>
0 <5.2.0.9.2.20030427222235.00b89e60@cbiweb.com>
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428061642.00bcf118@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>


>Joel Young wrote:
O> > resizing Moz doesn't help at all. Even at 120% the text is tiny. I have no

> > clue.


(At 12:44 AM 4/28/03, Felix Miata wrote:

+>Are you using an ancient Mozilla version?



ONo. I'm using 1.3... I use the most recent release of any browser I test on. ]
l13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: tarquin at planetunreal.com (tarquin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:37:55 +0100
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
0Message-ID: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>

*what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
&as seen here to make rounded corners:

Hhttp://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

Gshould we avoid these because they are non-standard? (the same way we 
Eshould be avoiding IE-only stuff like scrollbar, filters, & marquee)

*is there a reference for these somewhere?
]
l13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: tarquin at planetunreal.com (tarquin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:47:05 +0100
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0References: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0Message-ID: <3EACF899.6050902@planetunreal.com>

tarquin wrote:

>
>
,> is there a reference for these somewhere?

found something:

Mhttp://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/nsextensions.htm
:-)

& started a page on the wiki
]
l13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Josh at Ambrutis.com (Josh Ambrutis)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:24:32 -0400
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
=In-Reply-To: <000101c30d58$af49ac30$0501a8c0@golfbreaks.com>
7Message-ID: <002901c30d78$be93a6d0$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>



> Sam Ellis (css-d) : 
=> Just downloaded Opera 7.1 and I cannot see the problem ...
> 
@> It looks as if your version of Opera is looking at the print 
> stylesheet
G> (try print previewing). What version are you using? It would be very
I> useful to see screenshots. Does anyone else know about Opera rendering
%> css from a media=print stylesheet?

)http://portalsmith.com/golfbreaks-ss.jpg

GOpera 7.02, Win XP.  Did a print preview, and while some of the layout
Gchanged, it didn't change much... Text links still unreadable, but the
?content switched from anchored left to centered, and the green
&backgrounds were dropped.  HTH a bit.

--Josh
]
l13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: liorean at f2o.org (liorean)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:55:49 +0200
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
0References: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
'Message-ID: <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>

tarquin wrote:
,> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
(> as seen here to make rounded corners:
J> http://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

CThere are three reasons for vendor specific properties and values:
F1. Implementing a not-yet-standard css property, such as css3 rounded
	corners.
B2. Allowin the specification of behaviors and handling in css for
Ebehaviors that you can not for the momemnt achieve with your current
supported base of standards.
A3. Adding new functionality that neither can be defined in other
Ftechnologies for the web or is upcoming in an upcoming new or updated

standard.

EIn moz, we see quite a few cases of 1 and some of 2. I suppose there
:might be some 3 as well, but if so I don't know about it.
=In op7, we see 2 alone, from what I can tell - if their "web
4specifications supported in opera" page is correct.
/In ie, we see mainly a bunch of 3 and a few 2.
GIn saf/konq, I have no idea what may or may not exist when it comes to
4this, but I would think the engine is rather clean.

I> should we avoid these because they are non-standard? (the same way we 
G> should be avoiding IE-only stuff like scrollbar, filters, & marquee)

%You should stay clearly away from 3.
 You should consider avoiding 2.
%I see no reason to stay away from 1.

IYou should use 1 in combination with the W3C upcoming if you wish to use
that feature.

,> is there a reference for these somewhere?

1Oh, they are spread over the vendors using them.
Opera:
R<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/operaextensions.htm>
9Opera 7: <http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/#xml-css-link>
	Mozilla:
l<http://unstable.elemental.com/mozilla/build/latest/mozilla/dom/dox/interfacensIDOMNSCSS2Properties.html>, 

O<http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/properties/extensions/nsextensions.htm>
Microsoft:
I<http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/css/reference/attributes.asp>

FThere are also a few that MSDN doesn't contain any documentation for,
<like the expression(jsExpression) syntax. (It only contains
Idocumentation for the getExpression, setExpression and removeExpression,
Cand this document is about the best I can find about expression():
G<http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/recalc.asp>)

-- 
&liorean <mailto:liorean@user.bip.net>

HViewStyles, ViewScripts, ToggleStyles and GraphicsInfo bookmarklets and
)Theme Switcher, Cookies Handler scripts:
#<http://liorean.web-graphics.com/>
]
l13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:52:03 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
(	<004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL>
4Message-ID: <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>

Hi Al,

>
> Here're a couple more:
G> http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
> problematic on Mac)

Msorry to disappoint you, but your menue doesn't work as intended on MSIE 5.0
Jon W2k. The menue just scrolls with the rest of the page. no fixed menue.
unfortunately.

greetings from germany,

Jens Grochtdreis]
l13:43:46.081 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.082 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-d at elliz.com (Sam Ellis (css-d))
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:04:11 +0100
6Subject: [css-d] Site Check Mac please Golfbreaks.com
8In-Reply-To: <002901c30d78$be93a6d0$6502a8c0@Dreamfire>
<Message-ID: <001301c30d7e$4ba8cd20$6300a8c0@golfbreaks.com>


+> http://portalsmith.com/golfbreaks-ss.jpg
I> Opera 7.02, Win XP.  Did a print preview, and while some of the layout
I> changed, it didn't change much... Text links still unreadable, but the

Kthe links are meant to be small - this is for printing and if they are too
Jbig they much up the entire site (and take up too much screen realestate)
Kand as most people do not want to read them, they are in fine print - only
Iif the person wants to go to the page ... probably me being too hi-tech!

Glooks like Opera 7.02 is using all the !important css in the print.css
Estylesheet throughout the entire media range, instead of print only.

?I'm going try to download 7.02 to test, if not will post again

Cheers
Sam
]
l13:43:46.082 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.082 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: joel.young at ns.sympatico.ca (Joel Young)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:09:39 -0300
.Subject: (resend) Re: [css-d] ems or percent?
EMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>

=(I think the email below may have gotten lost in the shuffle
'over the weekend, so I'm resending it.
8If I've broken any etiquette by doing so, I apologize.)



!At 09:20 PM 4/26/03, Mike wrote:
><snip>
N>On the basis that it's impossible to please all users at all times, what, in
J>your opinion(s) and in ems or %, is the best body/menu/heading/text font
H>settings "standard" to suit most browsers, on most platforms, for most
>users, most of the time?
>
>Mike
>Edinburgh, Scotland




LYes! This is what my original question was about, and I'm glad you brought 
Lit back around, Mike. Hopefully someone will have an answer for us. In the 
Kmeantime, let's see if I understand a few things.  Someone please tell me 
<if I'm even close to knowing what I'm talking about.... :-)

===============
Scenario 1:
AAssume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}

?This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
#of the browser's default. Yes? No?
===============
Scenario 2:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 1em}

AAll text on the page will still be 80% of the browser's default,
=because basically 1em = 100%, and I'm only setting it to 20%
$less (which is 80%).  Right? Wrong?
===============
Scenario 3:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 0.9em}

:Okay, NOW the text will actually be just under 80% of the
:browser default, because it is 9/10ths of 80% of default.
===============
Scenario 4:
body {font-size: 80%}
.classname {font-size: 100%}

=Again, the text remains at only 80% of default, because I've
Cset it to be 100% of the body font size (not that I would do that,
it's just for example)
===============
One more... Scenario 5:
body {font-size: 100%}
0.classname {font-size: 1em} or {font-size: 80%}

FHere, the text will either be the full browser default, or 80% of it.
Right?
===============


HIf all the above are correct, then it's just as easy to set the body at
D100% all the time, and simply use smaller percentages for different
sizes.
BThat, or do body {font-size: 100%}, and use various em sizes, and
Ceverything should work out - keeping the sizes within a reasonable
range, of course.

8Did I reach home base, or am I somewhere in left field?


Joel]
l13:43:46.082 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.082 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:11:27 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234D@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

HCorrect me if I'm wrong, but min-height isn't supported in IE 5 on Mac,
right?

BIn that case, how do I get an element to adapt its size after its
	content,
8but that it will still be a specified height otherwise.

BFor example, I want a DIV to be at least 20 px height, but if its
content is more,=20
Fthen I want it to adapt its size (and the whole document's flow after
that).

?This works with min-height:20px; in Opera, Gecko etc, and with
height:20px; in IE on PC.
GBut in IE 5 on Mac the height is only 20 px no matter the content (and
if the content is
0more, it just flows outside of the element...).

Any solutions for this?


/Robert
1From rijk at opera.com  Mon Apr 28 13:13:59 2003
/From: rijk at opera.com (Rijk van Geijtenbeek)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:13:59 +0200
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
(In-Reply-To: <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>
KReferences: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com> <3EAD16C5.6010202@f2o.org>
)Message-ID: <oprob9llpayoq9u9@localhost>

EOn Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:55:49 +0200, liorean <liorean@f2o.org> wrote:

> tarquin wrote:
->> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?
)>> as seen here to make rounded corners:
K>> http://grayrest.com/moz/evangelism/tutorials/dominspectortutorial.shtml

GThis page looks fine (maybe a bit boxy) in Opera 7. No harm done, IMO.

E> There are three reasons for vendor specific properties and values:
H> 1. Implementing a not-yet-standard css property, such as css3 rounded
> corners.
E> 2. Allowing the specification of behaviors and handling in css for
G> behaviors that you can not for the momemnt achieve with your current
> supported base of standards.
C> 3. Adding new functionality that neither can be defined in other
H> technologies for the web or is upcoming in an upcoming new or updated
> standard.
[..]
'> You should stay clearly away from 3.
"> You should consider avoiding 2.
'> I see no reason to stay away from 1.
>
K> You should use 1 in combination with the W3C upcoming if you wish to use
> that feature.

IFor both 1, 2 and 3 it is important that the page doesn't depend on the 
Inon-standard property to be useful and good looking. But even when they 
Kdon't cause problems in other browsers, it is best to avoid such features 
Lif you want to build robust public pages. Even in category 1, the property 
Kmight change a bit before it gets into the standard, and it might be also 
Kproblematic when someone else has to take over the maintainance of a page.

-- 
= If you don't like having choices    |  Rijk van Geijtenbeek
< made for you, you should start      |   Documentation & QA
? making your own. -  Neal Stephenson |  mailto:rijk@opera.com]
l13:43:46.082 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: phiw at l-c-n.com (Philippe Wittenbergh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:30:01 +0900
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234D@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
=Message-ID: <220371DF-7975-11D7-887C-003065B2D440@l-c-n.com>


=On Monday, April 28, 2003, at 09:11  PM, Robert Nyman wrote:

J> Correct me if I'm wrong, but min-height isn't supported in IE 5 on Mac,
	> right?

Nope, doesn't work in IE5 mac.
>
D> In that case, how do I get an element to adapt its size after its
> content,
:> but that it will still be a specified height otherwise.
>
D> For example, I want a DIV to be at least 20 px height, but if its
> content is more,
H> then I want it to adapt its size (and the whole document's flow after
	> that).
>

BUsing the intrinsic (is that the word ?) height of the element ? 
?Without a real sample it is a bit difficult to say, of course.
;div {border:1px solid #000; padding: 2px, font-size:12px; 
3line-height:14px;} should give something you want.

Or do I miss something ?

	Philippe


:== | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | == | ==

Philippe Wittenbergh

7code | design | web projects : <http://www.l-c-n.com/>
4online image gallery : <http://www.l-c-n.com/phiw/>
>IE5 Mac bugs and oddities : <http://www.l-c-n.com/IE5tests/>]
l13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: eoghan at redry.net (eoghan)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:49:01 +0100
 Subject: [css-d] select problem
)Message-ID: <3EAD233D.3000203@redry.net>

hello,
Di am referring to a problem that occurs in particular with ie5+ on 
windows. the
J<select> form element is apparently described as a "windowed elements"...
Eso this means that they should paint themselves on top of all other 
elements on a
Hpage. so, when using dropdown menus, selects will appear through them. 
this behaviour
Fdoesnt occur in nn7/moz1+ or firebird0.5. however, these browsers do 
have problems
Ewhen the "multiple" attribute is applied to the select, or when the 
select is opened.
Di was wondering if anyone else had come across this issue. using a 
z-index in this
Fcase will not work. and apart from avoiding this problem, has anyone 
come up with
&any workarounds for this issue. for a
small example, see here:

-http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/css/001.html

thanks
]
l13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: moose at literarymoose.info (The Moose)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 07:45:20 -0500
4Subject: [css-d] Moovigation - a screenshot request
.In-Reply-To: <3EAD1DF2.1020700@jeugdhuisx.be>
-References: <3EAD1DF2.1020700@jeugdhuisx.be>
7Message-ID: <oproca1u1m98ddih@mail.literarymoose.info>

M> You'd have to encode the entities with the \xxxx values. I think they are 
 > in hex, but am not 100% sure.

MWell, thank you kindly, my good sir! You have helped me more than you would 
Jthink. I have now made the variant obsolete, and rewrote the entities in 
Mhex (eg. content: "\xxxx", " ";). Now I must start rewriting where thus far 
I had misused it.

grazie,

Wojtek

Hp.s. I now have screenshots complete. Many thanks to everyone who sent 
theirs.
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Mon Apr 28 13:57:44 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:57:44 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234E@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

5> line-height:14px;} should give something you want.
> Or do I miss something ?

'Line-height won't help in this case...

Well, take this example:

div.levelItem{
	position:relative;
	width:100px;
	border:1px solid black;	=09
	background:#ffffa2;
	min-height:20px;
}

"and then for IE on PC I add this:

div.levelItem{
	height:20px;
}

HBut if the content is, for instance, a full sentence, I want the DIV to
expand its height
2according to the space that the sentence takes up
I(which works with min-height, and in IE on PC it resizes automatically).

2How do I get that kind of resizing for IE on Mac?


/Robert
]
l13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: dmead at optiem.com (David Mead)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:02:51 -0400
Subject: [css-d] Flash & CSS ?
VMessage-ID: <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>


Dear all,

.I was asked the following question last week:

D"Can you use FLASH in the same way as you can with images in CSS to
7provide background and/or rollover effects for links".

IMy first reaction was no as (I believe) FLASH has to be the top layer of
Da web page and also how would you code the EMBED statement?  Then I
Dthought I'd ask here as CSS is still fairly new to me and maybe I'm
missing something.


Comments?

Thanks,

Dave]
l13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: web2k2 at premonition.co.uk (Geoff Sheridan)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:39:17 +0100
Subject: [css-d] Flash & CSS ?
In-Reply-To: 
K <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>
References: 
K <BFEED6F44251624A93C2DA00B8A6285A1E9290@opclesmbiz01.internal.optiem.com>
2Message-ID: <p0510030dbad2ddc8ef7c@[192.168.8.3]>

E>"Can you use FLASH in the same way as you can with images in CSS to
8>provide background and/or rollover effects for links".
>
J>My first reaction was no as (I believe) FLASH has to be the top layer of
E>a web page and also how would you code the EMBED statement?  Then I
E>thought I'd ask here as CSS is still fairly new to me and maybe I'm
>missing something.

?Your first reaction was right. Unless you did something like :
a:hover object {display:none;}
Din which case you can probably hide/show flash content on rollover.
6I haven't tested and certainly do not recommend this.
FWhat's the point, when flash contains it's own rollover events which 
)are likely to give a much better result?
AIt would be nice to be able to have flash content as background 
Bimages 'tho. I can imagine this being egregiously misused but it 
;would be very handy for all sorts of great visual effects.

Geoff
;From moronicbajebus at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 28 14:48:36 2003
1From: moronicbajebus at yahoo.com (Seamus Leahy)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 06:48:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
1In-Reply-To: <3EACF673.4090606@planetunreal.com>
AMessage-ID: <20030428134836.91265.qmail@web13005.mail.yahoo.com>


.--- tarquin <tarquin@planetunreal.com> wrote:
,> what are your opinions on -moz CSS rules?

7I think the -moz rules were created for effects in the
3user interface of Mozilla because XUL (the Mozilla
interface) uses CSS. 



#__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
/The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
:From robert.nyman at centus.com  Mon Apr 28 14:51:43 2003
0From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:51:43 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4223C234F@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

!> div {height: 20px;} /*IE win*/
?> html>body div {min-height:20px; height:auto;} /*all others*/

EBut that doesn't solve my problem with IE on Mac. I have no problems
with
8getting it to work for IE on PC and all other browsers.

DThe only one that it doesn't work in is in IE on Mac, which doesn't
understand min-height,
Ghence it doesn't get the element to expand its size accordingly to the
!text, not even with height:auto.


	/Robert]
l13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: robert.nyman at centus.com (Robert Nyman)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:12:39 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] min-height in IE 5 on Mac
MMessage-ID: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052FE@centus_ex_01.centus.com>

7> The only one that it doesn't work in is in IE on Mac


My bad...
8Using height:auto and line-height solved the problem...

/Robert
8From george.smyth at USNA.COM  Mon Apr 28 15:48:12 2003
.From: george.smyth at USNA.COM (George Smyth)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 10:48:12 -0400
"Subject: [css-d] Redesign Problem
LMessage-ID: <C07E1FAF6146764086BB888BB8E5496701C7420F@win2kexch.aa-naf.net>

LI have got a problem with a redesign and am wondering if anyone can help me
out.

MI have a class that defines the look of a div and I apply it to each section
Cof the navigation bar on the left.  Oddly enough, the border color
Dcharacteristics are not being displayed on the home page (the other
Lcharacteristics do work), but do work on other pages.  The code "should" be
Lthe same, with the exception of no active "Home" link on the home page (the
Monly real code difference I can tell is that the other pages are being drawn
Kvia an include statement, but doing so on the home page still exhibits the

problem).

HThe home page is located at http://test.usna.com/, and if you click the
MEvents link you will see how it should be displayed.  I've looked and looked
Kat this and just can't figure out why the home page is not being displayed

properly.

Thanks for looking -

george]
l13:43:46.083 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.084 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: christopher at christopher.org (Christopher)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:24:18 -0400
$Subject: [css-d] ANNC: 50+ Headings
NIn-Reply-To: <2971830BF2404F4E9FDB861233E7C4224052FE@centus_ex_01.centus.com>
9Message-ID: <BAD2BFE2.10978%christopher@christopher.org>

	Hi, all,

@Headings in Web pages--marked up with h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, or h6
Melements=8B-help the reader determine the purpose of sections in content. It
Halso does one other thing: it helps the reader judge if the material is
something they want to read.

JThe only problem is that the default rendering of those headings is often
visually bland.

KIn order to help people create better designed headings, I've released the
KCSS resource, 50+ Headings, where you can see up to fifty headings designs
and their variations.

JYou can submit their own heading variations as well--which represents the
"plus" in the title.

3< http://www.cssbook.com/resources/css/headings/ >


Best,
Christopher Schmitt
?  Author, "Designing CSS Web Pages" -- http://www.cssbook.com/
?  Web Design Specialist -- http://www.christopherschmitt.com/]
l13:43:46.084 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.084 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 08:35:36 -0700
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
CMessage-ID: <OFD278A69D.7CC3E6CA-ON88256D16.00545AA2@capgroup.com>


Joel Young wrote:

?> So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:
>
>       body {font-size: .7em}
>       td {font-size: .7em}
>
I> This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule
text
> that Superman couldn't read.
>
>
L> So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing

L> is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers -

> aren't they?....
>
$>       (no body styling this time)
>       td {font-size: .7em}
>
H> That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a
> strong pair of glasses.

Welcome, Joel!

There are two tricks here:

H1) IE does not inherit font sizes through the table tag, but the td tag
Ldoes inherit correctly. Instead of the body/td style combo above, try this:

    body {font-size: 70%}
    table {font-size: 100%}

JThis tells IE to inherit the font size through the table, which will then
Eallow the td fonts to size correctly. It also doesn't cause any side
Leffects in more compliant browsers, because 100% of 100% is, well, 100%. If
Lyou have reasons to change font sizes for specific td's, this also lets you
Gdo so without worrying about clobbering the browser compatibility fix.

H2) Jason Estes mentioned the issue with setting font sizes in ems -- it
Icauses IE to do strange things when the browser is set to anything other
Lthan "Medium". I can't agree more strongly, with respect with the body font
Hsize. Basically, IE will misbehave if you use ems as the font-size that
2everything else is relative to, so something like

    body {font-size: 0.7em}
    cite {font-size: 0.9em}

Kwill shrink to unreadable proportions. If, however, you set your outermost
Lfont-size using percents, you can then make all other font sizes in ems, if
2you prefer reading them that way. In other words,

    body {font-size: 70%}
    cite (font-size: 0.9em}

will behave correctly.

HTH,

MikeL]
l13:43:46.084 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.084 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 11:46:41 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
5In-Reply-To: <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>
References: 
J	<523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A2C4ACF@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
P	<004101c30b44$fdd740d0$6401a8c0@BIGAL> <004501c30d7c$993e5250$d201a8c0@jenspc>
/Message-ID: <3EAD4CE1.9010008@star-chaser.com>

Jens Grochtdreis wrote:
	> Hi Al,
> 
> 
>>Here're a couple more:
G>>http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
>>problematic on Mac)
> 
> 
O> sorry to disappoint you, but your menue doesn't work as intended on MSIE 5.0
L> on W2k. The menue just scrolls with the rest of the page. no fixed menue.
> unfortunately.
> 
> greetings from germany,
> 
> Jens Grochtdreis

@Why not take the time to read the material before posting? The 
Cinformation on the page makes no mention of it working in IE5 Win.

<quote>
B"It will work as intended in MSIE5-MAC, MSIE6-PC, Netscape 6.2+, 
GNetscape 7, Mozilla 1x, and Opera5+. It will degrade nicely in lesser 
browsers."
	</quote>

Gary
]
l13:43:46.084 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.084 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: chris at placenamehere.com (Chris Casciano)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:13:50 -0400
Subject: [css-d] -moz rules
*In-Reply-To: <oprob9llpayoq9u9@localhost>
5Message-ID: <BAD2CB7E.53E2B%chris@placenamehere.com>

Bon 4/28/03 8:13 AM, Rijk van Geijtenbeek at rijk@opera.com wrote:

> 
J> For both 1, 2 and 3 it is important that the page doesn't depend on the
J> non-standard property to be useful and good looking. But even when they
L> don't cause problems in other browsers, it is best to avoid such features
M> if you want to build robust public pages. Even in category 1, the property
L> might change a bit before it gets into the standard, and it might be also
M> problematic when someone else has to take over the maintainance of a page.

EI'd like reiterate the point about "change a bit" as there's nothing
Dstopping the VND in question not for changing the property at will.

FI'll take the -moz- extensions as an example. Those that are there to
Fprovide an implementation of the spec before its a recommendation are
Iexpected to change. Because the spec may change there is no promise of a
Ldirect translation from "-moz-property" to "property". When "property" gets
Gfinalized and support is in the browser -moz-property and property may
Iactually conflict so if you think you're smart by sneaking "property" in
Itheir for forward compatibility expect to have to edit your pages anyway
=(although I don't know what the odds of this happening are).

LThere is no promise of backwards compatibility within the extension itself.
A real example this time:

MThere was once a time before bug 195883 where -moz-opacity would accept both
D%age units and floating point values between 0 & 1. Well, we're now
Apost-195883 and %ages don't work anymore. Sucks to be anyone who
Kexperimented with them in the past only to have long forgotten demos break
(me included).

-- 
0[ Chris Casciano ]  [ chris@placenamehere.com ]
0[ see things  @  http://www.placenamehere.com ]
1[ read words   @   http://www.chunkysoup.net/ ]]
l13:43:46.084 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.084 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 12:55:36 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>

�Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.

! 1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
 3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
 4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
 5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
/From ian at hixie.ch  Mon Apr 28 17:55:50 2003
$From: ian at hixie.ch (Ian Hickson)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 09:55:50 -0700 (PDT)
)Subject: [css-d] Media="all" vs. @import
NIn-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
UReferences: <523ED78FF1F87A44A40907C74F83CBC20A4A1FD3@mail.bgm.globeinteractive.com>
B	<Pine.LNX.4.50.0304240948260.14317-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>
MMessage-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.50.0304280947420.26619-100000@dhalsim.dreamhost.com>

4On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Ian Hickson (that's me) wrote:
+> On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Saila, Craig wrote:
>>
B>> The only catch with this is that the default media for LINK is
D>> "screen", so /technically/ other media types would never see the
>> embedded @media stuff.
>
I> That's an error in the HTML spec. The HTML working group has delegated
I> authority over the "media" attribute to the CSS working group, who has
*> decided to change the default to "all".
>
G> Unfortunately I can't find a public reference to this decision. I'll
> look into it.

0I've found a formal reference to this decision:

c   http://hades.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/voyager-issues/HTML-4.01?id=528;expression=screen;user=guest

EThat's the relevant entry in the HTML working group issues database.

HTH,
-- 
IIan Hickson                                      )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
I"meow"                                          /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Ihttp://index.hixie.ch/                         `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
4From afternoon at uk2.net  Mon Apr 28 18:15:24 2003
)From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 18:15:24 +0100
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
;Message-ID: <000B1247-799D-11D7-88C8-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


DObviously this is not the complete answer, but I've had my copy of 
2Safari confused for the mythical NS 5 before now.

Ben


FOn Monday, Apr 28, 2003, at 17:55 Europe/London, Bill Creswell wrote:

G> Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is 
I> that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.
>
">  1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91
!>  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33
 >  3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10
>  4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8
>  5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7
>
> Bill Creswell
> Helpdesk/Webmaster
> Van Eerden Distribution
> http://www.vaneerden.com
> (616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
$	See http://aftnn.org/ for details]
l13:43:46.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: dnelson at netbank.com (Dave Nelson)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:02:07 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OMessage-ID: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBA5@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>

KI think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 6.1
0was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x

-----Original Message-----
2From: Bill Creswell [mailto:BillC@VanEerden.com] 
&Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 12:56 PM
 To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?


IWebtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that
Btracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.

! 1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
 3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
 4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
 5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
G______________________________________________________________________
*css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
2http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
CSupported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
5From me at chrismcleod.net  Mon Apr 28 19:21:28 2003
+From: me at chrismcleod.net (Chris McLeod)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:21:28 +0100
ISubject: [css-d] a div that is at least the full height of the window...
FMessage-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20030428185406.00b18cd0@mail.qawebhosting.com>

MI've been trying to create a ALA style layout for a site template. This bit 
Jis all simple enough... However, I need the main content area to stretch 
Hthe full height of the window at the very least. The content area is a 
Mdifferent colour from the page background, and it looks a bit silly as just 
a block in the upper corner.

JI've tried height and min-height equal to 100% or auto, but neither have 
Cworked at all, if the positioning is done with floats or relative 
Kpositioning. If I set the positioning to absolute, it works but it forces 
-scroll bars, which is obviously undesirable.

LIs it possible to have a floated div fill the entire height of the window? 
KOr will I have to create the effect using a background image (which is my 
backup plan...)


Thanks,


Chris.]
l13:43:46.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:26:41 +0100
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
0Message-ID: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>

HIs there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without 
%having to specifically overide them?

GWe are doing some work on a content management system interface where 
Jstyles have already been applied to selectors such as <p> and we want to 
C  "reset" them for certain situations without editing the default 
stylesheet.

Be.g. if the styles already applied in the default stylesheet are 
something like:-

)p {font-size:2em;color:red;margin:20px;}

:and in our custom interface we want to use something like

G#mystyle p {(ignore all styles already applied to p without overiding 
them one by one)}]
l13:43:46.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 13:51:15 -0500
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
0References: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
7Message-ID: <003901c30db7$25e162d0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

I> Is there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without
'> having to specifically overide them?


MYou can use the specificity in CSS to override the values.  So if the values
)are originally set with p {declarations}
Jyou can use body p{declarations} which has a higher specificity.  You can
3replace body with whatever the parent selector is.

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

]
l13:43:46.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:41:56 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>

L>I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 6.1
1>was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x

{Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4 (which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent string).\

Bill
<From svendtofte at svendtofte.com  Mon Apr 28 20:01:35 2003
1From: svendtofte at svendtofte.com (Svend Tofte)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:01:35 +0200
<Subject: SV: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
8In-Reply-To: <003901c30db7$25e162d0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
EMessage-ID: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>

JYou'd still have to override all the individual rules, no? Otherwise they
would cascade in.

D> You can use the specificity in CSS to override the values.  So if
> the values
+> are originally set with p {declarations}
L> you can use body p{declarations} which has a higher specificity.  You can
6> replace body with whatever the parent selector is.]
l13:43:46.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ksoh at colby.edu (Karen Oh)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:18:15 -0400
1Subject: [css-d] Mac and Linux site check please
8In-Reply-To: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
7References: <000401c30c24$eeea14e0$0100007f@localhost>
6Message-ID: <a05111b0dbad32e3aed12@[137.146.196.147]>


(>http://blogstreetjournal.com/index.php

Hi,
 not sure if you got feedback. .

Mac OS 9.2

IE5
Fonts are teeny
D3-column layout, 1st and 2nd col touch, 2nd and 3rd do not (have a 
little gutter between them).

02nd col is not vertically aligned with 1 and 3.

NN4.7
:Not that legible--degrades poorly, overlapping text, etc.

NN7
;Looks Great! (Fonts may be a little bigger. . . like 12px)

hth,
karen
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Mon Apr 28 20:19:31 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:19:31 -0500
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
7Message-ID: <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> You'd still have to override all the individual rules, no? Otherwise they
> would cascade in.
>


2In the original email he said they were set up as

p {declarations}

and wanted something like

#mysite p {declarations}

Kbut instead of applying an ID which would require modifying the markup, he
could just use a selector like

J#wrapper p {declarations} where #wrapper is already the <div> surrounding
Mthe content area. of if he wanted to apply the styles to all the p's then he

could use

Dbody p {declarations} which would apply to all the p's on the page.

GIt's hard to account for specific circumstances of inheritance without
Iseeing the code though.  Maybe Rick could provide us some sample of what

he's got.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
]
l13:43:46.085 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.086 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:16:29 -0400
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
1In-Reply-To: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
0References: <3EAD7261.7070003@starskiweb.co.uk>
4Message-ID: <17715762453.20030428151629@mrclay.org>

6Monday, April 28, 2003, 2:26:41 PM, Rick Hurst wrote:
LRH> Is there a way to clear/reset all styles applied to a selector without 
)RH> having to specifically overide them?

BNo, *however*, you can use a copy of Mozilla's HTML.css file (the
Gbrowser's default stylesheet) as a guide to help you return properties
Cto their original values.  If you know a property was set and that
;property can have a value of "inherit", set it to inherit.

JRH> We are doing some work on a content management system interface where
%RH> styles have already been applied

GIf a stylesheet is out of your control, it's out of your control.  You
Ecan disable a stylesheet with javascript, but this isn't a solution.
FYour situation is similar to writing a user stylesheet - In your case
Hthe author is your CMS.  The only way is to redefine all the properties
you need control over.

FThis is another good reason to write stylesheets to take advantage of
Dinheritance.  It easier for everyone to write stylesheets to extend
the existing one.

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org]
l13:43:46.086 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.086 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: lists at dramatic.co.nz (Richard Grevers)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:45:36 +1200
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>
IReferences: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B74@vec01.vaneerden.com>
)Message-ID: <oprocuiajczs1r4a@localhost>

IOn Mon, 28 Apr 2003 14:41:56 -0400, Bill Creswell <BillC@VanEerden.com> 
!gave utterance to the following:

K>> I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of 
>> 6.1
3>> was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x
>
J> Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4 
6> (which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent string).\
>
JOr any other Mozilla from around 0.5 onwards - False reports of Netscape 
:5.0 have been cropping up in stats for a year or two now.

-- 
HUsing M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
7From gary at star-chaser.com  Mon Apr 28 20:54:02 2003
%From: gary at star-chaser.com (Gary)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:54:02 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
JIn-Reply-To: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
IReferences: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B73@vec01.vaneerden.com>
/Message-ID: <3EAD86DA.9090706@star-chaser.com>

Bill Creswell wrote:
�> Webtrends is saying I have a higher % of 5.0 than 4, or 6/7. But is that tracking Gecko, or old NS? I find mixed opinions in web searches.
> 
#>  1 Netscape 5.0 7,004 83.56% 91 
">  2 Netscape 6.2.1 537 6.40% 33 
!>  3 Netscape 7.01 180 2.14% 10 
>  4 Netscape 4.7 42 0.50% 8 
>  5 Netscape 7.0 127 1.51% 7 
> 
Elooks like your logs are identifying Mozilla as Netscape, All gecko 
Fbased browsers id themselves as mozilla/5.0 unless they have been re 
Ibranded. you have to look at the whole string to determine what browser 
it is.

example netscape 7.0 string
CMozilla/5.0 (windows; U; NT4.0; en-us) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0

A mozilla string
:  Mozilla/5.001 (windows; U; NT4.0; en-us) Gecko/25250101

IIf they have been re branded then they will still use Mozilla and gecko 
in their string.

C  Mozilla/9.876 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i686, en) Gecko/25250101 
 Netscape/5.432b1 (C-MindSpring)


HTH
Gary


Gary Bland
StarChaser Web Architecture
http://star-chaser.com
!Building Tomorrow's World Today]
l13:43:46.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-discuss at exclupen.com (Marshall Roch)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:08:15 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] Site check: Blogshares
(In-Reply-To: <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>
GReferences: <3EACAC43.8040901@exclupen.com> <3EACC0B7.9060005@gci.net>
,Message-ID: <3EAD8A2F.4080603@exclupen.com>

Tony Bounds wrote:

> Marshall,
J> On ie5.1.5mac the 'GO' button is shifted underneath the input field on 
L> your search form. Also, the background is missing to the left of the top 
H> banner leaving a blank white space. The ticker is missing completely.

4I'm at a loss to why that background isn't working.

 This was the rule for that div:


#header {
padding-right: 10px;
9background: url('images/logo_bg.gif') top left repeat-x;
text-align: right;
}

8I just changed the 's to "s, let me know if that helps.

K> On ns7.02mac the ticker is overlayed atop the blue 'Fantasy Blog Shares 
L> Market' rule and is unreadable. It also takes up so many cpu cycles that 
;> its making typing this creep along slowly and painfully.

GI don't know what to do about that ticker... It's from DevEdge[1], but
Hit doesn't work very well in Netscape anyway.  To get it to stay inside
Ethe width that I need it, I had to set it absolutely inside the main
Fcolumn div, which has margins the size of the left and right columns.
IHowever, it was overlapping the title (BlogShares - Blah blah blah) so I
?gave it a top: -20px; which causes that overlap of the logo in
0Opera7/Win too.  Any ideas on what to do there?

II'm not sure what to do about the slowness of it.. Does anyone know of a
Ecross-browser ticker that uses HTML to store the content (instead of
embedding it in a JS)?

--
Marshall Roch

D[1] http://devedge.netscape.com/toolbox/examples/2001/stock-ticker/

]
l13:43:46.087 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: cicero2002 at centrum.cz (bill shakespeare)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:16:25 +0200
"Subject: [css-d] Redesign Problem
@Message-ID: <20030428201632Z317121-615+143500@mail2.centrum.cz>


George,

EThere are many, many "deep-water mines" concealed from an untrained 
Beye in your code.  Incidentally, whatever happened to those mine 
Gsniffing dolphins, plowing the waters of the Gulf ?  The last I heard 
-of them was a week or so into the Operation.

Problemo Uno:

FYour front page sports a different doctype from that of Events.htm.  
4Believe it or not, I may make a helluva difference.

Problemo Due:

0Your front page sports, furthermore, this line:

,<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>

GI recommend tossing it out.  Most of the time it's more of a nuisance 
6than a benefit.  It may send IE6/Win into a tailspin.

Problemo Tre:

AThe best practice calls for introducing a stylesheet before any 
JavaScript.

DRectifying the problems does not guarantee a desired effect.  Yet, 
it's a very good start.


--------------------
�Vyhrajte kuchyò za 200 000 Kè, letecký zájezd a dal¹í zajímavé ceny! Zúèastnìte se ètenáøské ankety IDEÁLNÍ MU® na http://zena.centrum.cz/ideal

]
l13:43:46.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: incoming at kubaton.com (incoming@kubaton.com)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:42:39 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
KMessage-ID: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>

,Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?

http://riotgrrrl.com/

GThe "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
Jhaving it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
Icouldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?

_Lea]
l13:43:46.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: csslist at theparagon.org ({ schaapy })
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:01:39 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
LIn-Reply-To: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
3Message-ID: <BAD30EF3.1F95%csslist@theparagon.org>



I would do something like:


#header {
    height: 15px;
}

#header.letters {
    float: left;
}



<div id="header">
!    <div class="letters">r</div>
!    <div class="letters">i</div>
!    <div class="letters">o</div>
!    <div class="letters">t</div>
</div>


IGive each letter a transparent background - this will let you change the
'color of the top bar if you so choose.

------------------------------
Aaron Schaap
www.theparagon.org

+They tell me the internet never sleeps ...
1... Evidently, that means I don't get to either.

> From: <incoming@kubaton.com>
(> Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:42:39 -0400
.> To: "'Css-D'" <css-d@lists.css-discuss.org>
?> Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
> 
.> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
> 
> http://riotgrrrl.com/
> 
I> The "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
L> having it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
K> couldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?
> 
> _Lea
> 
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
> ]
l13:43:46.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:13:30 -0500
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
7Message-ID: <008301c30dcb$050b1380$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>


.> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
>
> http://riotgrrrl.com/
>
I> The "riotgrrrl.com" is going to be at the top of every page and I like
L> having it stretch. I've designed the rest of my site without tables but I
K> couldn't find a way to do this without them. Anyone know a way to do it?


LHere you go, I couldn't tell if it worked perfectly cause I didn't have the
+images, but looks ok from what I can tell.

A<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//Ddiv HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>
<head>
" <title>Untitled Document</title>
J <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
=   <link href="global.css" rel="stylesheet" type="text/css">
   <style type="text/css">
    body {
    margin:0;
    padding:0;
}
   .piece {
    text-align:center;
 width:6%;
; background-image:url(images/top/background.png) repeat-x;
 float:left;
 }
   .heading2 {
    clear:both;
 }
   </style>


</head>

<body>

<div id="topbanner">
K  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/left.png" width="16" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/i.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/o.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/t.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/g.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r2.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r3.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/r4.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/l.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
J  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/dot.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/c.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
I  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/o2.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
H  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/m.png" width="36" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
L  <div class="piece"><img src="images/top/right.png" width="16" height="42"
alt="riotgrrrl.com"></div>
</div>

7<p class="heading2">New &amp; Improved Coming Soon</p>

</body>

</html>

Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org

]
l13:43:46.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.088 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: mrmazda at ij.net (Felix Miata)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:13:32 -0400
/Subject: [css-d] Mozilla vs IE6 PC font sizing
CReferences: <OFD278A69D.7CC3E6CA-ON88256D16.00545AA2@capgroup.com>
#Message-ID: <3EAD997C.4DB1@ij.net>

#Michael_Landis@capgroup.com wrote:
 
> Joel Young wrote:
 
A> > So to compensate, and hopefully make IE6 behave, I did this:

!> >       body {font-size: .7em}
> >       td {font-size: .7em}

P> > This puts IE6 the way I want it, but transforms Mozilla into miniscule text
!> > that Superman couldn't read.

N> > So I tried this, thinking it would take care of both, since all I'm doing

N> > is styling the td's for the page, and td's are the same in all browsers -

> > aren't they?....

&> >       (no body styling this time)
> >       td {font-size: .7em}

J> > That looks great in IE6, and only brings Mozilla up to legible with a
> > strong pair of glasses.
 
> There are two tricks here:
 
J> 1) IE does not inherit font sizes through the table tag, but the td tag
N> does inherit correctly. Instead of the body/td style combo above, try this:
 
>     body {font-size: 70%}
>     table {font-size: 100%}
 
L> This tells IE to inherit the font size through the table, which will then
G> allow the td fonts to size correctly. It also doesn't cause any side
N> effects in more compliant browsers, because 100% of 100% is, well, 100%. If
N> you have reasons to change font sizes for specific td's, this also lets you
I> do so without worrying about clobbering the browser compatibility fix.
 
J> 2) Jason Estes mentioned the issue with setting font sizes in ems -- it
K> causes IE to do strange things when the browser is set to anything other
N> than "Medium". I can't agree more strongly, with respect with the body font
J> size. Basically, IE will misbehave if you use ems as the font-size that
4> everything else is relative to, so something like
 
>     body {font-size: 0.7em}
>     cite {font-size: 0.9em}
 
M> will shrink to unreadable proportions. If, however, you set your outermost
N> font-size using percents, you can then make all other font sizes in ems, if
4> you prefer reading them that way. In other words,
> 
>     body {font-size: 70%}
>     cite (font-size: 0.9em}
> 
> will behave correctly.

ISince Matthew Davey started the ems or percent? thread over the weekend,
FI've been playing around with IE6 off and on trying to understand the
@pattern. NAICT so far, and using standards mode exclusively, IE
Dmisbehaves on font-size inheritance under more conditions than just
.tables. I just haven't found the pattern yet.

HFor example, at http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/ie/IE6tB.html, which
Ehas only two font-size rules applied to the whole page (table=100% &
Gtd=.8em), upon setting IE6 to "smaller" and Gecko to 13px, the first 6
Enon-blank rows (1 apparent paragraph) display the same font sizes in
2both Gecko and IE, since all are specified in px.

AThe next apparent paragraph (3 rows) match the first two rows at
I13px=medium and 12px=small. In the next row, Gecko shows x-small at 10px
3(leaving 9px for xx-small), while IE drops to 9px.

HThe 3rd apparent paragraph (3 rows) shows matches only in the first row
Hat 13px=medium. The next two rows exhibit the mis-sizing problem in IE,
Iwhile they display as expected in Gecko, which correctly applies .8em to
Athe 2nd row and .8emX.8em=.64em to the third row. Note that this
Fparagraph is three nested divs, no tables, and yet what IE appears to
Ehave done is apply .8emX.8em to row two, and .8emX.8emX.8em=.51em or
(.8emX.8emX.8emX.8em=.41em to row three.

FNext 2 paragraphs/rows are simply for reference for what follows, but
Enote that .8em is smaller in IE, even though the default is the same
13px.

FLast, is a three row table, with another table in the 2nd row. Again,
EGecko renders exactly as expected. In contrast, IE, which supposedly
Ifubars em text sizing *too small* if a % size is not set in body or html
Fand not set in prefs to medium, displays the first two rows, sized in
(ems, *larger* than Gecko. ?!?!?!?!?!?!?
-- 
>"The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of
>governmental power."                General Douglas MacArthur

& Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

@Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/auth.html]
l13:43:46.089 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.089 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 16:26:14 -0500
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
3References: <BAD30EF3.1F95%csslist@theparagon.org>
7Message-ID: <008901c30dcc$cc8789b0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

>
> I would do something like:
>
> #header {
>     height: 15px;
> }
>
> #header.letters {
>     float: left;
> }
>
>
>
> <div id="header">
#>     <div class="letters">r</div>
#>     <div class="letters">i</div>
#>     <div class="letters">o</div>
#>     <div class="letters">t</div>
	> </div>

JThe only problem with this is that you didn't explicitly set the width of
Ethe letters, which is required for floats.  That is until CSS 2.1 is
Jfinalized.  If you use this without explicit declaration of width it will
@break in IE 5.x on the mac, most other browsers will display it
appropriately..


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org


]
l13:43:46.089 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.089 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: andrewyao at yahoo.com (Andrew Yao)
,Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 15:48:34 -0700 (PDT)
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
AMessage-ID: <20030428224834.33497.qmail@web41212.mail.yahoo.com>


Hi Folks,

7There is a subtle effect with both solutions presented
2so far: when you resie the browser width so it is
7smaller than the combined width of all the images, the
7banner will wrap into multiple lines.. I don't know if
this is the desired effect.

-I propose to use multiple spans in a div and
white-space:nowrap 

<html>
	<head>
#		<title>Untitled Document</title>
		<style type="text/css">
			#topbanner {
				white-space:nowrap;
5				background-image:url(images/top/background.png);
 				background-repeat:repeat-x;
			}
			#topbanner span {
				width:6%;
			}
		</style>
		</head>
	<body>
		<div id="topbanner">
3			<span><img src="images/top/left.png" width="16"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/r.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/i.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/o.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/t.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/g.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r2.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r3.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/r4.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/l.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
2			<span><img src="images/top/dot.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/c.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
1			<span><img src="images/top/o2.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
0			<span><img src="images/top/m.png" width="36"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
4			<span><img src="images/top/right.png" width="16"
)height="42" alt="riotgrrrl.com"/></span>
			</div>
		</body>
</html>

cheers

Andrew

#__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
/The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
3From steve at mrclay.org  Tue Apr 29 00:20:41 2003
'From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19:20:41 -0400
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
LIn-Reply-To: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
5Message-ID: <156730414296.20030428192041@mrclay.org>

@Monday, April 28, 2003, 4:42:39 PM, incoming@kubaton.com wrote:
1ikc> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
ikc> http://riotgrrrl.com/

+Fun stuff.  http://mrclay.org/secret/riot/
EThis uses all spans and background-images, so no messy imgs or block
2containers in markup.  A min-width prevents wrap.

Moz/Opera7: works great.
'IE6: fine, but right piece is missing.
Others: shudder to imagine.

?Since this is all basically presentational markup, I'd make an
9average-sized img and put it in a noscript element, then
Gdocument.write in all this markup from an external .js file.  At least
3you'll have cleaner documents and the mess cached.

EOr you might experiment with an img stretched horizontally with CSS,
Cit might not look as tight, but would be much cleaner and possibly
more reliable:

G<img (left piece) /><img style="width:80%" ... /><img (right piece) />

Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org]
l13:43:46.089 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.089 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css-discuss at alex.cloudband.com (Alex Robinson)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:36:12 +0100
=Subject: [css-d] Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
6In-Reply-To: <156730414296.20030428192041@mrclay.org>
KReferences: <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
@ <83886C07B810E545AD385040F00FDBDEA6E4C3@MAIL-04VS.atlarge.net>
3Message-ID: <l03130317bad36b51335b@[192.168.0.36]>

2>ikc> Can this be done with DIV instead of TABLE?
>ikc> http://riotgrrrl.com/
>
,>Fun stuff.  http://mrclay.org/secret/riot/

LWow, looks like everyone's stepped up to the bat on this one - mine's not a
Imillion miles from Steve's though I think mine is just that bit sleeker.
JHowever, what with the embarrassment of riches now on display, I can't be
Abothered to finish it but I think the proof of concept is there.

6<http://www.fu2k.org/alex/css/cssjunk/Riotgirl.mhtml>

LOf course, I'd junk the images as text and just justify the text but that's
just me...


]
l13:43:46.089 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.090 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Curt2305 at aol.com (Curt2305@aol.com)
$Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:33:52 EDT
+Subject: [css-d] List readability problems
+Message-ID: <1ea.79417d2.2bdf2270@aol.com>

@In a message dated 4/28/2003 1:36:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ironmike@inav.net writes:


I> <.bold> Is this bold in your reader? <.h2>It should be in regular text

OI think it's fine, but I don't think it will be picked up by the rest of this 
List.

MI am interested in the list you refer to. If you could send some info on it 
Mto me, I'd appreciate being able to check it out. Thanks for the suggestion.


Curt
8From holnkids at netscape.net  Tue Apr 29 03:47:36 2003
0From: holnkids at netscape.net (Holly Bergevin)
&Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 22:47:36 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
6Message-ID: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>

1Webapprentice <webapprentice@onemain.com> wrote:

,>http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html
>
I>The middle white area, where there is a link to "See the style sheet," 
K>is not stretched all the way.  I'd like to stretch the white area so it 
@>almost reaches the right white area but not colliding with it.
>
D>I've tried "width: auto" and "width: 100%," but this doesn't work.

qHi Stephen - You have a couple of options here, and which you chose may depend on what else you put on the page.

�To use absolute positioning as currently written on the div#contentarea and get the browsers to expand a greater distance than the short amount of text you have in there now, specifiy a width for #contentarea. You might choose your min-width value for this. Depending on the browser size and/or screen resolution of your user, the gap will be wider or narrower (or non-existant) with this method. I suspect that this probably isn't what you want to have to deal with.

�Another option is to use relative positioning instead, and use right margining to set the distance away from the right border, much like you already have. This will allow the div#contentarea to expand the full width of the area available, as long as it is greater than the min-width you have set. You will also have to adjust the top position, and you shouldn't need the width property at all. 

#contentarea {
    other: styles;
&    position: relative;/* change */
.    top: 46px;        /* change also */
4    /*width: auto;*/ /* probably not necessary */

�The min-width property will keep the #contentarea from collapsing beyond the value you have set as the browser narrows, but the #rightnavarea will slide on top of the #contentarea as the browser is narrowed beyond the min-width (except in IE-win which doesn't recognize min-width). If you want that middle column fluid in all browsers, remove the min-width property.

HTH,

~holly




C__________________________________________________________________
-Try AOL and get 1045 hours FREE for 45 days!
0http://free.aol.com/tryaolfree/index.adp?375380

6Get AOL Instant Messenger 5.1 for FREE! Download Now!
8http://aim.aol.com/aimnew/Aim/register.adp?promo=380455
<From webapprentice at onemain.com  Tue Apr 29 05:02:46 2003
3From: webapprentice at onemain.com (Webapprentice)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 00:02:46 -0400
ASubject: [css-d] Making an area stretch to maximum area with CSS
7In-Reply-To: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>
6References: <1B326182.65ADBA44.009CE500@netscape.net>
+Message-ID: <3EADF966.6080700@onemain.com>


Hi Holly,
Thank you for the quick reply.

IYou are correct that absolute positioning + min-width was not the way I 
Hwanted go.  I  wanted the middle column to be fluid, much like the old 
/HTML table hack of setting a td width to 100%.

HYour second option of relative positioning intrigued me.  I have never 
Dquite gotten that to behave properly, so I've always used absolute 
9positioning.  I had a lot of problems trying to combine 
Hrelatively-positioned elements with absolutely-positioned elements.  I 
,probably don't understand page flow enough.

FI've employed your relatively-positioned idea, and it works.  I must 
Hhave been very close to solving my problem, since I only had to change 
3two properties for #contentarea, position and top.

+http://www.cocoebiz.com/newsite/index.html

<I'm kind of amazed that relatively-positioned elements and 
.absolutely-positioned elements can cooperate.

5I have to examine relative positioning more closely.

Thank you Holly.

Sincerely,
	Stephen]
l13:43:46.090 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.090 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: rick at starskiweb.co.uk (Rick Hurst)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:01:46 +0100
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
8In-Reply-To: <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
,	<005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>
,Message-ID: <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>

Jason Estes wrote:

4> In the original email he said they were set up as
> 
> p {declarations}
> 
> and wanted something like
> 
> #mysite p {declarations}

DI probably wasn't being specific enough - i'll explain the set-up:-

IThere are two templates involved - one CMS admin template which already 
Ehas a stylesheet attached (and needs to stay attached), and we have 
Eattached our own additional stylesheet and one public site template 
Fwhich has just our style sheet. Within the admin template you create 
J"inner templates" such as "news item" which are inserted into the public 
Gsite template, but the problem is when you try to preview these inner 
Jtemplates within the admin template, they also inherit the global styles 
from the admin style sheet.

GThe admin style sheet has rules defined for p, h1, h2 etc and so does 
Iour public style sheet, and although we can redefine each of these rule 
Fby rule, this means we would need to add loads of extra rules to our 
(public style sheet to catch everything.

JI was trying to find a way to stop the inheritance for everything within 
Ba particular div without having to overide the styles one by one.

Hope thats clearer!]
l13:43:46.090 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.090 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: andy at webprojects.co.uk (Andy Walker)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:48:42 +0100
4Subject: [css-d] IE6  absolute positioning problems
3Message-ID: <002f01c30e23$c2a8ea40$c501a8c0@holly>

$Looks fine in everything except IE6

&I was using an ie6 - specific hack...

G#leftsidebar {position: absolute; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 140px; =
-background-color: white; text-align: right;}
@/* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
0* html #leftsidebar { /*\*/ left:-150px; /* */}

EThis worked fine, but in IE 5.0, it positioned the sidebar off the =
left-hand edge of the page.

I have changed it to...

G#leftsidebar {position: absolute; left: 0px; top: 0px; width: 140px; =
-background-color: white; text-align: right;}
@/* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
-* html #leftsidebar { /*\*/ left:0px; /* */}

K...for the purposes of testing in ie 5.0, but the menu's now incorrectly =
positioned in ie6

&http://www.webprojects.co.uk/csslist/

any ideas?
DFrom Andreas.Reuterberg at staff.spray.se  Tue Apr 29 09:55:40 2003
@From: Andreas.Reuterberg at staff.spray.se (Andreas Reuterberg)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:55:40 +0200
6Subject: [css-d] 2 columns centered but unkown width?
FMessage-ID: <8E9E6E8B6A579344999D9B303F0B3B2D306312@safir.i.spray.se>

FI have a slight problem. I know how to solve it but I would like an =
Ieasier alternative. I have two columns, one of them is 200px wide (for =
Bexample) and the other one is sometimes 200px and sometimes 0px =
I(shouldn't be shown). The problem is that these two columns need to be =
Hcentered on the page and to do that I need to put them in a <div> and =
Kset that width to the width of them both together. But I need to get rid =
Gof that set width (300px) because the content in the right column is =
Hthere sometimes and sometimes it's not (it contains a banner). I know =
6how to do this with tables but.. Well, tables suck :)

9Can anyone help me? This is a short example of the code:

$<body style=3D"text-align:center;">
0	<div style=3D"width:300px; border:1px solid;">
H		<div style=3D"float:left; width:200px; border:1px solid;">200px</div>
;		<div style=3D"float:left; border:1px solid;">100px</div>
	</div>
</body>


Andreas
;From knaepkens.luc at pandora.be  Tue Apr 29 11:51:27 2003
(From: knaepkens.luc at pandora.be (Luc)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:51:27 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] IE and the fixed position
3Message-ID: <1448902190.20030429125127@pandora.be>

 Good afternoon list,      

B I read up on http://devnull.tagsoup.com/fixed/ to make the fixed
B position work in IE but i seem to have a serious brain damage: i
 can't get it to work.

 My testpage:

@ http://users.pandora.be/luc_test/Projecten/Test/Pages/Test.htm

 sheet:

7 http://users.pandora.be/luc_test/Stylesheets/test.css

C The top banner and left nav should be fixed (Opera does it) but i
D can't get it fixed in IE.  Could some of you kind souls explain me
A how to implement the devnull hack or provide me the code for my
0 project so i can try and figger it out myself?
 
-- 
Best regards,
 Luc
---------------------------------------------
APowered by The Bat! version 1.63 Beta/7 with Windows 2000 (build
E2195), version 5.0 Service Pack 3 and using the best browser: Opera.

A"Acting is just a way of making a living, the family is life." -
Denzel Washington (1954-____).
---------------------------------------------
]
l13:43:46.090 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.090 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: BillC at VanEerden.com (Bill Creswell)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:54:15 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] position:fixed and IE
IMessage-ID: <615A7A1331831E4E88D61D05F20F84C1099B90@vec01.vaneerden.com>

>>Here're a couple more:
G>>http://www.projectseven.com/mxvision/fixednav/fixedbar.htm (cool but
>>problematic on Mac)

~Caution to all: If you use this, remember that (800x600 Firebird) I can't do anything to make the bottom of the menu visible.

Bill Creswell
Helpdesk/Webmaster
Van Eerden Distribution
http://www.vaneerden.com
(616) 452-1426 Ext. 293
 ]
l13:43:46.090 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.140 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 07:11:39 -0400
8Subject: [css-d] reset all applied styles for selector?
-In-Reply-To: <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
L <005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH> <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
4Message-ID: <56127789375.20030429071139@mrclay.org>

1Tuesday, April 29, 2003, 2:01:46 AM, Rick wrote:
CRH> when you try to preview these inner templates within the admin
GRH> template, they also inherit the global styles from the admin style
RH> sheet.

EOoooh, you're preview environment is basically corrupted by an admin
FCSS file that won't be there for the user, but you need /some/ of the
Fadmin rules to keep the CMS "chrome" nice during preview.  Here are a
Fcouple ideas for which you'll need a partial admin.css file with what
you don't want stripped out:

E1) Write a bookmarklet that disables link to admin.css and adds link
?to partialAdmin.css  You'd have to run this with every preview

F2) Temporarily replace admin.css with partialAdmin.css on the server.
FTry to tie the code to do this into the preview function of your CMS.

DIf partialAdmin.css can't be created, your dev team would just have
Eto live with the admin "chrome" being unstyled during preview.  Just
)/move/ or disable admin.css temporarily.

HTH,
Steve
-- 
http://mrclay.org/]
l13:43:46.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: malaja at malaja.f9.co.uk (malaja)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:24:48 +0100
FSubject: [css-d] Site check please... Global 3 Col Fluid CSS Template
EReferences: <LNEPLDGPPPMJAEKAAELDEEPHCKAA.svendtofte@svendtofte.com>
L	<005901c30dbb$1890bcd0$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH> <3EAE154A.905@starskiweb.co.uk>
)	<56127789375.20030429071139@mrclay.org>
2Message-ID: <00b501c30e4a$53696250$fd00a8c0@mike>

<I hope some kind folk can help with a site check... please!

IGiven recent discussions on this list, especially regarding em's v % and
Gbrowser compatibility/hacks, I decided to create global templates that
Laddress some regular issues. My aim is to create some sort of "Standard", a
Lgood starter for people to use which also explains how the page builds from
beginning to final design.

EThe first of these templates is for a 3 column, cross-browser, cross
Lplatform, standards compliant, table-less, fluid page. The first-draft home
page is at
Khttp://www.china-and-west.com/cssTemps/layout1_3col/three_col_home.htm and
its layout is at
Lhttp://www.china-and-west.com/cssTemps/layout1_3col/three_col_testbasic.htm
K. The layout test page is a bit messy but there so the code is seen at the
"place of relevance in the layout.

II would appreciate site checks on as many platforms as possible. To save
Jcluttering the list with replies I would appreciate a direct reply unless
:there are issues which may be of design relevance to all.

MOne intention is to fully comment both the CSS and page, so commentary is as
 important as design competence.

KI need the type of templates I am designing. At the same time I considered
Gthey should be available to all, thus saving re-invention and enabling
Hdesigners (especially those new to CSS) to grasp some issues constantly
Gdiscussed on the list. I am happy to act as a conduit (do the work) to
Kbenefit others. If, when finished, someone wants to put these templates on
Mtheir own CSS-help sites or in publications then okay, so long as this helps
towards good design standards.

KWhen this one's complete I intend to produce fully commented templates for
J2-column, photo album, and E-book pages. I'll add more if I'm not totally
exhausted after that!

Many thanks!

Mike A
Edinburgh, Scotland
4malaja@malaja.f9.co.uk (preferred for this subject)
mike@china-and-west.com
T. 00 44 31 664 6604]
l13:43:46.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ehmer at pacific.net.au (David & Angela Ehmer)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 22:49:00 +1000
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3Message-ID: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>

JAppreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
Hdetail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
explained examples.

Thanks
David]
l13:43:46.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:58:56 +0200
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
4Message-ID: <007301c30e4f$1b61def0$d201a8c0@jenspc>


Hi David,

Fmy favourite is "Eric Meyer on CSS" [http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/].
LIt is full of advanced CSS-Stuff which you only can understand, if you have
a little bit of CSS-practice.

DAnd I hope, there will be a 2nd Edition of his "normal" CSS-Book at

O'Reilly.

Greetings from Germany,

Jens]
l13:43:46.141 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: ksoh at colby.edu (Karen Oh)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:13:04 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
4In-Reply-To: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
6Message-ID: <a05111b09bad42a3626b7@[137.146.196.147]>

(I got Eric Meyer's "Eric Meyer on CSS."

CIt's decent if you are interested in learning CSS from the start. 
CEach chapter is an case study of a design and he shows you how to 
Ccreate that design using CSS with step by step instructions. Good 
2beginner tutorial book, but not a reference book.

GIf you want a reference type of book that gives crude examples (boxes 
Eand text mainly, nothing designed or whatnot), the O'Reilly book on 
.CSS is a good base. That's how I am learning.

$Plus, there's tons of stuff online.

HTH
Karen


K>Appreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
I>detail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
>explained examples.
3From ckestes at bewb.org  Tue Apr 29 14:31:36 2003
(From: ckestes at bewb.org (Jason Estes)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08:31:36 -0500
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
3References: <004001c30e4d$b6c5e8c0$a6f88fcb@ehmer>
7Message-ID: <001701c30e53$a8dfa790$2901a8c0@SWORDFISH>

L> Appreciate any thoughts on recently released books that cover CSS in some
J> detail.  Especially page layout/positioning of elements with thoroughly
> explained examples.


MI too have "Eric Meyer on CSS" and I think it's a fantastic tool.  It starts
Ewith simple pages in tables and progresses through entire pages done
Lstrictly with CSS.  It delves into a few of the finer points of CSS which I
Mthink is great, plus there are online files you can download to "play along"
Hwith the book, which is infinitely more helpful than just reading text.


Jason Estes
	The BEWB
www.bewb.org
]
l13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:58:03 -0700
4Subject: [css-d] IE6  absolute positioning problems
CMessage-ID: <OFF0EE69DE.6470F02F-ON88256D17.004BAB72@capgroup.com>


@[n.b.: I've reformatted the styles for folks whose mail readers
automatically wrap text...]

Andy wrote:

(> I was using an ie6 - specific hack...

> #leftsidebar {
>   position: absolute;
>   left: 0px;
>   top: 0px;
>   width: 140px;
>   background-color: white;
>   text-align: right;
> }
B> /* IE6 ignores the left:0px stuff so detection needed here...*/
> * html #leftsidebar {

>   /*\*/
>   left:-150px;

>   /* */
> }

JI've seen that hack identified for hiding properties in Mac IE 5, but not

IE 6. Try

* html #leftsidebar {
	   /*\*/
   lef\t:-150px;
	   /* */
}

FThis assumes that Mac IE 5 works fine with left: 0px. The escaped "t"
Dcauses all IE versions except for 6.0 to ignore the style -- see "A
DModified SBMH" on http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=BoxModelHack

GIf Mac IE needs the same fix, remove the comments. See Edwardson Tan's
great page on comment hacks at
Ihttp://www.info.com.ph/~etan/w3pantheon/style/commentbugs.html for other
variations.

HTH,

MikeL]
l13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: jazzsnot at optonline.net (jazzsnot@optonline.net)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:03:57 -0400
+Subject: [css-d] Books on CSS positioning?
2Message-ID: <b4f13b2bfc.b2bfcb4f13@optonline.net>

�"Designing CSS Web Pages" is an amazing book, especially for design. It teaches you how to design pages properly and put CSS to use. It has made me think totally different after reading it. Highly recommended.

Roy]
l13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gsam at trini0.org (Gerard Samuel)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:06:45 -0400
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
*Message-ID: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>

%Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
-With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
<<p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
=<div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
?<span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.

6Im just looking for verification on this observation.
HIf Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
to gain a "special" effect.

IFor example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not to 
use tables for layout.
IThe only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by line 
fashion is by ->
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
<div></div>
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

E(Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
:control the space between options, style the option text,
Gand if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
the form inputs.

)Thanks for any insight you may provide.]
l13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: steve at mrclay.org (Steve Clay)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:14:27 -0400
(Subject: [css-d] what is troubling IE6?
5Message-ID: <132787639953.20030429111427@mrclay.org>

FLea's layout made me think of the old Mad Fold-Ins, so I put together
=this in CSS: http://mrclay.org/junk/mad/ (narrow the window)

FI know IE doesn't have min/max widths, but I don't see where the rest
Dof this is failing.  The wider inside image seems to be missing (or
/rendering at width:0).  Any ideas to fix this?

(Everything is held by abs. positioning:

outer div:
?|--- img ---|--- inside span ---|--- img --- | (max-width set)
,   left:0;        left:95px;       right:0;
                  right:95px;
                  display:block;
inside span:
|---- img ----|
  width:100%;

Steve

'PS: Where I can get a funnier fold-in?
-- 
http://mrclay.org]
l13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: dnelson at netbank.com (Dave Nelson)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:14:18 -0400
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OMessage-ID: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBB4@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>

1Bill Creswell [mailto:BillC@VanEerden.com] said:

J>> I think that Netscape 5.0 is actually Netscape 6.0. The dot release of
6.1
3>> was the first time its userAgent changed to 6.x
>
I> Do we know that? I was thinking WebTrends was mis-interpreting Moz 1.4
6(which reads Mozilla/5.0 in the userAgent > string).\
>
> Bill

JI downloaded and installed Netscape 6 from the evolt archive and if it is
Ethe same install from the initial release I was wrong. It is clearly
identified as Netscape 6

@userAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; m18)
Gecko/20001108 Netscape6/6.0

-My own stats from AWStats so far this month:
23 million hits total
91% IE
 4% NS

Netscape5   250854
Netscape6.0   1832 ]
l13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: afternoon at uk2.net (Ben Godfrey)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 16:26:50 +0100
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
+In-Reply-To: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
;Message-ID: <FF8EE716-7A56-11D7-BCD5-00039317C0C4@uk2.net>


E<span> and <div> are unstyled tags and contain no style properties, 
Cexcept that span is inline in it's display and div is block. This 
!creates the effect you describe.

B<p> on the other hand has more default properties. Commonly this 
@involves a margin or padding area equal in height to one line. 
IDifferent browsers define this standard style differently. IE PC places 
Gsome space above and below the text, Moz places it all below. You can 
&override this space with a rule like:

.p { margin:0; padding:0; margin-bottom:1em; }

FFor your example, I would recommend something along the lines of the 
following:

G<div class="f"> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /> 

bar</div>
H<div class="f" > <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /> 

bar</div>

And in your CSS:

.f { margin-bottom:1em; }

%Or whatever presentation you desire.

HTH,

Ben

H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

GOn Tuesday, Apr 29, 2003, at 16:06 Europe/London, Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
J> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
H> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not 
> to use tables for layout.
F> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by 
> line fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
>
G> (Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
<> control the space between options, style the option text,
I> and if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
> the form inputs.
>
*> Thanks for any insight you may provide.
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>

(q)	Ben Godfrey?
(a)	Web Developer and Designer
$	See http://aftnn.org/ for details]
l13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: justin at get-put.com (justin braem)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:29:50 -0500
Subject: [css-d] align-bottom
?Message-ID: <6AAAFCBE-7A57-11D7-B8A8-000393C28C30@get-put.com>

?I'm new here, so my apologies if this has been covered before.

AIs there any way to align a div to the bottom of a page without 
9resorting to finding the window height with javascript?]
l13:43:46.142 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: Michael_Landis at capgroup.com (Michael_Landis@capgroup.com)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:18:02 -0700
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
CMessage-ID: <OFFD126CEE.4F42D79A-ON88256D17.00570F2F@capgroup.com>


Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
I> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
J> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not to
> use tables for layout.
J> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by line
> fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

KWelcome to the world of CSS, Gerard! It sounds like you are also beginning
8to get into the world of structural (or semantic) HTML.

FBasically, each tag represents some type of information. <p> tags are
Ddesigned to represent paragraphs. Most browsers place space between
Kparagraphs to identify where it begins or ends. Some browsers put one full
Jline space between paragraphs, others place half a space. Either of these
$can be overridden with CSS, though.

J<div> and <span> tags are generic containers used to enclose content that
Ghas some common purpose. <div> tags are intended to represent discrete
Lblocks of information, while <span> tags are intended to represent specific
Linformation inside of a block. (More accurately, <div> tags are block-level
Gcontainers that typically create carriage returns, and <span> tags are
inline containers.)

JIn most circumstances, you would want to wrap information that belongs in
%its own block in <div> tags, so that

F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
<div></div>
F<input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>

becomes

8<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo"
/><span>bar</span></div>
8<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo"
/><span>bar</span></div>

KThis tells the browser that the label "bar" belongs with the checkbox as a
Jsingle unit. You can then apply CSS styles to the divs, to properly space
the blocks apart.

F<div> tags can also contain other block-level tags like <p> and other
F<div>s, but paragraphs can only contain non-block-level elements like
K<span>, <em>, etc. (If you consider <p> tags as representing paragraphs it
Jmakes some sense -- you might emphasize some text in a paragraph, but you
Ftypically wouldn't place a paragraph inside of another paragraph, for

example.)

IAnother enhancement you might consider is replacing the <span> tags with
J<label> tags. Inside forms, <label> tags permit you to add semantic value
Ito this text. You can associate labels with inputs, so that clicking the
Glabel highlights the input as well. As an example, you can rewrite the
above checkboxes as follows:

G<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" id="optionFoo" value="foo"
+/><label for="optionFoo">foo</label></div>
G<div><input type="checkbox" name="option[]" id="optionBar" value="bar"
+/><label for="optionBar">bar</label></div>

JAs long as the "for" attribute in the label matches the "id" attribute in
Jthe input, you can click the text and it will check/uncheck the checkbox.
HYou can style the label tag in the same way as you would've intended to
Kstyle the span tag. Also, the <label> tag more semantically represents the
purpose of this text.

EFor more information, check out the "Forms" section of the HTML 4.01
specification:

/http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html

JThis spec can also be useful (albeit a bit daunting at first) for finding
<out how W3C intended HTML to be put together in a document.

HTH,

MikeL]
l13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: scotts at rci-nv.com (Scott Schrantz)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09:20:50 -0700
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
=Message-ID: <D719D61D4BD8D311A26700A0C9E0E7B649EE3B@SERVER1>

> -----Original Message-----
/> From: Gerard Samuel [mailto:gsam@trini0.org]
> 
'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
> 
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
@> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to 
(> use these to gain a "special" effect.

JOne of the first things to learn when using CSS is not to choose elements
Jbased on what their default presentation is, but rather on what structure
Jthey give to the page. You then use CSS to give them the presentation you
want.

K<p> denotes a paragraph. Use it when you are marking up a single paragraph
Jof text. It is a block element, meaning that there is a line break before
Land after it. It doesn't "create 2 line breaks", it has margins that create
Mwhite space between it and other elements. That white space can be done away
with using CSS.

p {margin: 0px;}

J<div> is a container, used for grouping elements. You use it when several
Lparagraphs need to have the same style or be separated from the rest of the
Fpage somehow. It is also a block element, but its margins are zero by
	default.

K<span> is also a container, but it is an inline container. As you noticed,
Lit doesn't come with any line break or margins. You use it when you need to
Lisolate a few words or a passage in the middle of a paragraph and give them
a particular style.

KThe true way to use CSS is to start by using basic HTML properly, and then
Ladd the CSS to make it look the way you want. Don't choose HTML elemnts for
3their "special effects". Add the effects with CSS.

--
Scott Schrantz
www.computer-vet.com/weblog/
scotts@computer-vet.com
AFrom grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de  Tue Apr 29 17:27:50 2003
;From: grochtdreis.jens at bartenbach.de (Jens Grochtdreis)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 18:27:50 +0200
'Subject: [css-d] What is Netscape 5.0?
OReferences: <4EF4322541E0D311A8BB009027E7E57B04B2EBB4@ntbkexch.atlnetbank.com>
4Message-ID: <00b001c30e6c$4a62c670$d201a8c0@jenspc>

Hi,

Aaccording to Apple the new Safari-Browser may be your Netscape5.
GOn http://developer.apple.com/internet/safari_faq.html#2 you can read:

<cite>
(The entire Safari user-agent string is:
LMozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/XX (KHTML, like
Gecko) Safari/YY

K...where XX is the version of Apple's web technology used by Safari and YY
*is the version of the Safari application.
JAnd remember, since the rendering engine used by Safari behaves most like
HNetscape, the Safari JavaScript engine will report navigator.appName as
,"Netscape". Other Navigator values include:

G      navigator.appCodeName = "Mozilla" navigator.appName = "Netscape"
A      navigator.appVersion = "5.0" navigator.platform = "MacPPC"
D      navigator.product = "Gecko" navigator.productSub = "20030107"
0      navigator.vendor = "Apple Computer, Inc."

</cite>

HTH,

Jens]
l13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: gsam at trini0.org (Gerard Samuel)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13:55:01 -0400
5Subject: [css-d] What's the difference, when to use?
+In-Reply-To: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
*References: <3EAE9505.9020309@trini0.org>
*Message-ID: <3EAEBC75.7010602@trini0.org>

IThanks to all those who replied.  It has become a little clearer for me.
HI felt that what I was trying to do was cheat the system, and I didn't 
want to develop bad
habits from the start.
HNow I think I understand why Eric Meyer requested to pull all <br> and 
&nbsp; tags out of
Fyour html document when converting to CSS in the book "Eric Meyer on 
)CSS" (excellent resource so far for me).
1So back to work for me, till my next question :)

Gerard Samuel wrote:

'> Just beginning my journeys with CSS.
/> With <p> <div> and <span>, I've noticed that
>> <p> creates 2 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
?> <div> creates 1 line break before/after the open/close tags.
A> <span> creates 0 line breaks before/after the open/close tags.
>
8> Im just looking for verification on this observation.
J> If Im correct, are there any rules as to when or when not to use these 
> to gain a "special" effect.
>
H> For example, Im currently recoding an online poll, and Im trying not 
> to use tables for layout.
F> The only way I can make the input and options line up in a line by 
> line fashion is by ->
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
> <div></div>
H> <input type="checkbox" name="option[]" value="foo" /><span>bar</span>
>
G> (Yes, they aren't styled, its just for show) So one can potentially 
<> control the space between options, style the option text,
I> and if I wrap the inputs in a <span>, or "class" the input tag, style 
> the form inputs.
>
*> Thanks for any insight you may provide.
>
I> ______________________________________________________________________
,> css-discuss [css-d@lists.css-discuss.org]
4> http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
E> Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
>
>]
l13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: weston at canncentral.org (Weston Cann)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 12:37:27 -0600
KSubject: [css-d] Trying to hide styles from different browsers (IE Win, IE
	Mac, everything else)
CMessage-ID: <A0B8F58A-7A71-11D7-94CC-0050E4F9FA12@canncentral.org>

II've got a layout with some absolutely positioned elements that seem to 
Jdisplay a few pixels off from browser to browser. After some reflection, 
HI've decided to try and feed different sets of values to three general 
kinds of browsers:

(1) MS IE Win
(2) MS IE Mac
1(3) Any other child-selector recognizing browser

@The scheme I've been trying to use to accomplish this has been:

F(1) Feed the IE Win value straight out in the style sheet ( example: 
.#tlmenu { position: absolute; top: 118px; } )
G(2) Feed the IE Mac value using a child selector expression, which is 
Jtherefore hidden from IE Win (example: #centring>#tlmenu { top: 119px } )
J(3) Use the \ comment hack and another child selector expression to feed 
Ianother value to all other child-selector reading browsers (example: /* 
.hack \ */ #centring>#tlmenu { top: 120px; } )

JThe problem is: the Gecko-based browser I'm using (Chimera/Navigator .6) 
Hseems to be oblivious to everything I put in #3. Am I going about this 
Jin a fundamentally wrong way, or is there just a detail I'm missing? Are 
there other, better schemes?

&(If you want the full context, go to 
Ihttp://weston.canncentral.org/misc/XVoyager/about.html ... it's got the 
XHTML and style sheets)

Thanks,

	Weston

~ == ~
http://weston.canncentral.org/
FMaybe the reason the invisible hand is invisible is because it isn't 
there.]
l13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: css.rules at ntlworld.com (Standards R'Us)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 20:53:08 +0100
"Subject: [css-d] IE 5 Margin Woes
�Message-ID: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAr8lY0hVSt0GwCUriyH46gcKDAAAQAAAAUrRwFaryNk+fCMqWmDO7KAEAAAAA@ntlworld.com>

5Hi all - newbie to the list - hope you all are well,

GNow to the matters in hand, can anyone help/advise me on the following
point.

9Firstly the CSS validates and the XHTML does as strict. 

EBut....IE 5 seems to ignore the margin for the nav.a and nav.a:hover
7declaration set on my css in regards to the CSS below;

.nav{
*background-image:url('../img/navbg.jpg');
background-repeat:no-repeat;
border-left:1px solid #CCCCCC;
 border-right:1px solid #CCCCCC;
border-top:medium none;
margin:0px;
padding:0px;
width:780px
}
.nav a{
color:#000000;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;
font-size:12px;
font-weight:normal;
line-height:52px;
margin-left:14px;    /ignores
margin-right:14px;  /ignores
padding:0px;
text-decoration:none;
text-transform:capitalize;
}
.nav a:hover{
color:#FF0000;
font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif;
font-size:12px;
line-height:52px;
margin-left:14px;    /ignores
margin-right:14px;  /ignores
text-decoration:none;
text-transform:capitalize;
}

Any suggestions?

TIA

Jeremy
]
l13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [From: akuehn at nc.rr.com (Adam Kuehn)
&Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:59:56 -0400
!Subject: [css-d] ems or percent?
FIn-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
EReferences: <5.2.0.9.2.20030428090440.00bb3f48@pop1.ns.sympatico.ca>
3Message-ID: <p05210607bad4798b4575@[152.3.174.98]>

,At 9:09 AM -0300 4/28/03, Joel Young wrote:
>===============
>Scenario 1:
B>Assume that I start my page off like this: body {font-size: 80%}
>
@>This means that all text on the page will be rendered only 80%
$>of the browser's default. Yes? No?

GThis is a non-flame-war aspect to this problem, so I'll answer.  Yes, 
Gyour reading is correct on this point and all the points that follow, 
Bwith one caveat: be clear that "browser's default" refers to the 
Dperson doing the browsing, not the piece of software.  As has been 
Bthoroughly discussed, the individual may have changed his or her 
Dsettings, so what they see may not be the same as what the browser 
@ships configured to display.  So long as you are aware of that 
<possibility, you have calculated resulting sizes correctly.

EYou have to decide for yourself if it is more important to cater to 
Fthe cognoscenti or the clueless.  Just be aware that whichever group 
Fyou pick, the other group will see something different when it comes 
Fto font size.  Also, it is pretty much universally acknowledged that 
)the clueless is by far the larger group.

<opinion type="strongly held">
=My own view is that it is better to be concerned more about 
Eaccessibility and less about aesthetics.  Text that is slightly too 
Bsmall is less easily accommodated than text that is slightly too 
Clarge.  In addition, my experience is that more users back out of 
Dsites with text they find too small than sites with text they find 
Ctoo large.  This is the primary - and contrary to popular belief, 
Dcarefully-considered - reason that browser makers have chosen font 
Bsize defaults rather on the large side.  Take care in overriding 
their judgment.

DIn any case, be extremely sure of your choice if making non-header 
Afont sizes greater than 150% or less than 75-80% of the default 
G*anywhere* on a site.  Sizes outside that range are virtually assured 
Fof irritating some of your users.  (That is, constructions like your 
@third example, which made the inner text 72% of the "browser's 
(default", should generally be avoided.)
</opinion>

-- 

-Adam Kuehn
]
l13:43:46.143 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
�13:43:46.144 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Renaming [/tmp/mstor_test/testPurge/imagined.mbox/imagined.mbox] to [/tmp/imagined.mbox.1746186226144]
�13:43:46.144 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Renaming [/tmp/imagined.mbox.tmp] to [/tmp/mstor_test/testPurge/imagined.mbox/imagined.mbox]
]13:43:46.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [4109] bytes
�13:43:46.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org Mon Jun 06 12:55:14 2005
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EReceived: (qmail 74794 invoked by uid 99); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:13 -0000
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*Received: from mail.tbwb.nl ([127.0.0.1])
	by adsl.tbwb.nl ([@])
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4	by mail.tbwb.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207AB7E703
I	for <c-users@xerces.apache.org>; Mon,  6 Jun 2005 14:54:59 +0200 (CEST)
9Received: from [192.168.0.143] (unknown [192.168.0.143])
5	by frodo.tbwb.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4242914180
I	for <c-users@xerces.apache.org>; Mon,  6 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200 (CEST)
'Message-ID: <42A447A2.4000908@tbwb.nl>
&Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200
$From: Bart Friederichs <bf@tbwb.nl>
5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
*Subject: Unable to set an external schema
<Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
 Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
X-Virus-Checked: Checked
2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N


Hi all,

FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
this doesn't seem to work.

7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
<JobqueueXML>
/        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
...

%This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
<xs:schema
+        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
(        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
�xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            

"  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
...

IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
"    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
                 "job.xsd");

IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
it gives no error.

4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?

TIA
Bart Friederichs

]
V13:43:46.146 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
S13:43:46.147 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
cReturn-Path: <c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org>
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I	for <c-users@xerces.apache.org>; Mon,  6 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200 (CEST)
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&Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200
$From: Bart Friederichs <bf@tbwb.nl>
5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
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MIME-Version: 1.0
To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
*Subject: Unable to set an external schema
<Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
 Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
X-Virus-Checked: Checked
2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N


Hi all,

FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
this doesn't seem to work.

7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
<JobqueueXML>
/        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
...

%This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
<xs:schema
+        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
(        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
�xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            

"  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
...

IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
"    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
                 "job.xsd");

IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
it gives no error.

4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?

TIA
Bart Friederichs


]13:43:46.149 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [4109] bytes
�13:43:46.149 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org Mon Jun 06 12:55:14 2005
cReturn-Path: <c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org>
;Delivered-To: apmail-xerces-c-users-archive@www.apache.org
HReceived: (qmail 16571 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:14 -0000
JReceived: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (209.237.227.199)
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>Delivered-To: apmail-xerces-c-users-archive@xerces.apache.org
FReceived: (qmail 74809 invoked by uid 500); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:13 -0000
CMailing-List: contact c-users-help@xerces.apache.org; run by ezmlm
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'Message-ID: <42A447A2.4000908@tbwb.nl>
&Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200
$From: Bart Friederichs <bf@tbwb.nl>
5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
*Subject: Unable to set an external schema
<Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
 Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
X-Virus-Checked: Checked
2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N


Hi all,

FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
this doesn't seem to work.

7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
<JobqueueXML>
/        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
...

%This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
<xs:schema
+        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
(        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
�xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            

"  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
...

IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
"    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
                 "job.xsd");

IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
it gives no error.

4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?

TIA
Bart Friederichs

]
V13:43:46.149 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
S13:43:46.149 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
cReturn-Path: <c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org>
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EReceived: (qmail 74794 invoked by uid 99); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:13 -0000
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I	for <c-users@xerces.apache.org>; Mon,  6 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200 (CEST)
'Message-ID: <42A447A2.4000908@tbwb.nl>
&Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200
$From: Bart Friederichs <bf@tbwb.nl>
5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
*Subject: Unable to set an external schema
<Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
 Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
X-Virus-Checked: Checked
2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N


Hi all,

FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
this doesn't seem to work.

7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
<JobqueueXML>
/        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
...

%This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
<xs:schema
+        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
(        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
�xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            

"  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
...

IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
"    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
                 "job.xsd");

IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
it gives no error.

4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?

TIA
Bart Friederichs


]13:43:46.150 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [4109] bytes
�13:43:46.150 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org Mon Jun 06 12:55:14 2005
cReturn-Path: <c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org>
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I	for <c-users@xerces.apache.org>; Mon,  6 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200 (CEST)
'Message-ID: <42A447A2.4000908@tbwb.nl>
&Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200
$From: Bart Friederichs <bf@tbwb.nl>
5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
*Subject: Unable to set an external schema
<Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
 Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
X-Virus-Checked: Checked
2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N


Hi all,

FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
this doesn't seem to work.

7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
<JobqueueXML>
/        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
...

%This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
<xs:schema
+        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
(        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
�xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            

"  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
...

IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
"    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
                 "job.xsd");

IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
it gives no error.

4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?

TIA
Bart Friederichs

]
V13:43:46.150 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
S13:43:46.150 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
=================
cReturn-Path: <c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org>
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&Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200
$From: Bart Friederichs <bf@tbwb.nl>
5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
*Subject: Unable to set an external schema
<Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
 Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
X-Virus-Checked: Checked
2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N


Hi all,

FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
this doesn't seem to work.

7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
<JobqueueXML>
/        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
...

%This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
<xs:schema
+        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
(        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
�xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            

"  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
...

IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
"    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
                 "job.xsd");

IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
it gives no error.

4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?

TIA
Bart Friederichs


 ]13:43:46.152 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [4109] bytes
 �13:43:46.152 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org Mon Jun 06 12:55:14 2005
 cReturn-Path: <c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org>
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 HReceived: (qmail 16571 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:14 -0000
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 5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
 MIME-Version: 1.0
 To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
 *Subject: Unable to set an external schema
 <Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
 OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
  Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
 X-Virus-Checked: Checked
 2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
 
 
 Hi all,
 
 FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
 Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
 Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
 this doesn't seem to work.
 
 7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
 <JobqueueXML>
 /        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
 ...
 
 %This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
 <xs:schema
 +        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
 (        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
 �xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            
 
 "  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
 ...
 
 IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
 IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
 Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
 "    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
 B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
                  "job.xsd");
 
 IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
 Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
 GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
 Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
 it gives no error.
 
 4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?
 
 TIA
 Bart Friederichs
 
 ]
 V13:43:46.153 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
 �13:43:46.153 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
 �13:43:46.153 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.store.MemoryStore - Initialized net.sf.ehcache.store.NotifyingMemoryStore for mstor.mbox.-536217945
 a13:43:46.154 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.Cache - Initialised cache: mstor.mbox.-536217945
 �13:43:46.154 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.config.ConfigurationHelper - CacheDecoratorFactory not configured for defaultCache. Skipping for 'mstor.mbox.-536217945'.
 �13:43:46.154 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
 S13:43:46.154 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
 =================
 cReturn-Path: <c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org>
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 I	for <c-users@xerces.apache.org>; Mon,  6 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200 (CEST)
 'Message-ID: <42A447A2.4000908@tbwb.nl>
 &Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200
 $From: Bart Friederichs <bf@tbwb.nl>
 5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
 MIME-Version: 1.0
 To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
 *Subject: Unable to set an external schema
 <Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
 OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
  Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
 X-Virus-Checked: Checked
 2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
 
 
 Hi all,
 
 FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
 Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
 Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
 this doesn't seem to work.
 
 7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
 <JobqueueXML>
 /        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
 ...
 
 %This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
 <xs:schema
 +        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
 (        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
 �xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            
 
 "  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
 ...
 
 IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
 IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
 Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
 "    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
 B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
                  "job.xsd");
 
 IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
 Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
 GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
 Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
 it gives no error.
 
 4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?
 
 TIA
 Bart Friederichs
 
 
!]13:43:46.155 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [4109] bytes
!�13:43:46.155 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org Mon Jun 06 12:55:14 2005
!cReturn-Path: <c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org>
!;Delivered-To: apmail-xerces-c-users-archive@www.apache.org
!HReceived: (qmail 16571 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:14 -0000
!JReceived: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (209.237.227.199)
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!>Delivered-To: apmail-xerces-c-users-archive@xerces.apache.org
!FReceived: (qmail 74809 invoked by uid 500); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:13 -0000
!CMailing-List: contact c-users-help@xerces.apache.org; run by ezmlm
!Precedence: bulk
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!EReceived: (qmail 74794 invoked by uid 99); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:13 -0000
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!4Received: from adsl.tbwb.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1])
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!4	by mail.tbwb.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207AB7E703
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!9Received: from [192.168.0.143] (unknown [192.168.0.143])
!5	by frodo.tbwb.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4242914180
!I	for <c-users@xerces.apache.org>; Mon,  6 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200 (CEST)
!'Message-ID: <42A447A2.4000908@tbwb.nl>
!&Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200
!$From: Bart Friederichs <bf@tbwb.nl>
!5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
!X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
!MIME-Version: 1.0
!To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
!*Subject: Unable to set an external schema
!<Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
! Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
!OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
! Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
!X-Virus-Checked: Checked
!2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
!
!
!Hi all,
!
!FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
!Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
!Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
!this doesn't seem to work.
!
!7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
!<JobqueueXML>
!/        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
!...
!
!%This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
!<xs:schema
!+        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
!(        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
!�xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            
!
!"  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
!...
!
!IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
!IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
!Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
!"    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
!B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
!                 "job.xsd");
!
!IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
!Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
!GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
!Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
!it gives no error.
!
!4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?
!
!TIA
!Bart Friederichs
!
!]
!V13:43:46.155 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
"]13:43:46.156 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [4109] bytes
"�13:43:46.156 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org Mon Jun 06 12:55:14 2005
"cReturn-Path: <c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org>
";Delivered-To: apmail-xerces-c-users-archive@www.apache.org
"HReceived: (qmail 16571 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:14 -0000
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"EReceived: (qmail 74794 invoked by uid 99); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:13 -0000
".X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.1 required=10.0
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"X-Spam-Check-By: apache.org
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"4	by mail.tbwb.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 207AB7E703
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"'Message-ID: <42A447A2.4000908@tbwb.nl>
"&Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200
"$From: Bart Friederichs <bf@tbwb.nl>
"5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
"X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
"MIME-Version: 1.0
"To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
"*Subject: Unable to set an external schema
"<Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
" Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
"X-Virus-Checked: Checked
"2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
"
"
"Hi all,
"
"FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
"Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
"Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
"this doesn't seem to work.
"
"7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
"<JobqueueXML>
"/        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
"...
"
"%This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
"<xs:schema
"+        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
"(        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
"�xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            
"
""  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
"...
"
"IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
"IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
"Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
""    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
"B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
"                 "job.xsd");
"
"IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
"Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
"GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
"Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
"it gives no error.
"
"4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?
"
"TIA
"Bart Friederichs
"
"]
"V13:43:46.156 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
#]13:43:46.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [4109] bytes
#�13:43:46.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org Mon Jun 06 12:55:14 2005
#cReturn-Path: <c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org>
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#CMailing-List: contact c-users-help@xerces.apache.org; run by ezmlm
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#'Message-ID: <42A447A2.4000908@tbwb.nl>
#&Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200
#$From: Bart Friederichs <bf@tbwb.nl>
#5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
#X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
#MIME-Version: 1.0
#To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
#*Subject: Unable to set an external schema
#<Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
# Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
#OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
# Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
#X-Virus-Checked: Checked
#2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
#
#
#Hi all,
#
#FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
#Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
#Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
#this doesn't seem to work.
#
#7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
#<JobqueueXML>
#/        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
#...
#
#%This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
#<xs:schema
#+        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
#(        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
#�xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            
#
#"  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
#...
#
#IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
#IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
#Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
#"    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
#B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
#                 "job.xsd");
#
#IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
#Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
#GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
#Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
#it gives no error.
#
#4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?
#
#TIA
#Bart Friederichs
#
#]
#V13:43:46.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
#�13:43:46.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [Return-Path: <c-users-return-37-apmail-xerces-c-users-archive=xerces.apache.org@xerces.apache.org>
#;Delivered-To: apmail-xerces-c-users-archive@www.apache.org
#HReceived: (qmail 16571 invoked from network); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:14 -0000
#JReceived: from hermes.apache.org (HELO mail.apache.org) (209.237.227.199)
#>  by minotaur.apache.org with SMTP; 6 Jun 2005 12:55:14 -0000
#FReceived: (qmail 74829 invoked by uid 500); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:14 -0000
#>Delivered-To: apmail-xerces-c-users-archive@xerces.apache.org
#FReceived: (qmail 74809 invoked by uid 500); 6 Jun 2005 12:55:13 -0000
#CMailing-List: contact c-users-help@xerces.apache.org; run by ezmlm
#Precedence: bulk
#3List-Help: <mailto:c-users-help@xerces.apache.org>
#AList-Unsubscribe: <mailto:c-users-unsubscribe@xerces.apache.org>
#.List-Post: <mailto:c-users@xerces.apache.org>
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#5Delivered-To: mailing list c-users@xerces.apache.org
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#I	for <c-users@xerces.apache.org>; Mon,  6 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200 (CEST)
#'Message-ID: <42A447A2.4000908@tbwb.nl>
#&Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:54:58 +0200
#$From: Bart Friederichs <bf@tbwb.nl>
#5User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317)
#X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
#MIME-Version: 1.0
#To: c-users@xerces.apache.org
#*Subject: Unable to set an external schema
#<Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
# Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
#OX-AntiVirus: Checked by Vexira version:1.55.009; VDBversion:8.751; VDBdate:Sun
# Jun  5 15:38:58 2005 CEST
#X-Virus-Checked: Checked
#2X-Spam-Rating: minotaur.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
#
#
#Hi all,
#
#FI want to validate an XML file to a schema, but the XML file doesn't 
#Ihave a reference to that schema. I want to use the setProperty function 
#Fof the DOMBuilder to set an external schema, without namespaces, but 
#this doesn't seem to work.
#
#7Here is the (head of the) XML file I want to validate:
#<JobqueueXML>
#/        <MessageNumber>2483920</MessageNumber>
#...
#
#%This is the (head of the) XMLSchema:
#<xs:schema
#+        attributeFormDefault="unqualified"
#(        elementFormDefault="qualified" 
#�xmlns:xs="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema">                                                                                                                            
#
#"  <xs:element name="JobqueueXML">
#...
#
#IThe Schema definition is correct and when I reference the Schema in the 
#IXML file, it gets validated, but the files I get (I do not produce them 
#Gmyself) do not have the reference in it, so I want to set it this way:
#"    parser->setProperty (XMLUni::
#B                 fgXercesSchemaExternalNoNameSpaceSchemaLocation,
#                 "job.xsd");
#
#IWhere 'job.xsd' is the Schema file. 'parser' is a DOMBuilder object, as 
#Ddefined in the DOMCount sample program (I used that as reference). 
#GHowever, this does not work. There is no validation at all, even if I 
#Hchange the name into something unresolvable (e.g. a non-existing file) 
#it gives no error.
#
#4Could someone give me some help on how to fix this?
#
#TIA
#Bart Friederichs
#
#]
#l13:43:46.158 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
#�13:43:46.159 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Renaming [/tmp/mstor_test/testPurge/received-0xc.mbox/received-0xc.mbox] to [/tmp/received-0xc.mbox.1746186226159]
#�13:43:46.159 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Renaming [/tmp/received-0xc.mbox.tmp] to [/tmp/mstor_test/testPurge/received-0xc.mbox/received-0xc.mbox]
$]13:43:46.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [2802] bytes
$�13:43:46.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Sun Dec 16 02:02:14 2001
$ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
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$GReceived: (qmail 96687 invoked by uid 500); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:13 -0000
$AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
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$1list-help: <mailto:apache-bugdb-help@apache.org>
$?list-unsubscribe: <mailto:apache-bugdb-unsubscribe@apache.org>
$,list-post: <mailto:apache-bugdb@apache.org>
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$&Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
$:Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
$6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
$J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
$;        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
$F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
$O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
$O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
$P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
$J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
$0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
$�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
$2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
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$@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
$= (AngelaChristmas1) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 at 02:43:27
$L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
$
$2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
$�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
$x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
$
$
$L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
$
$
$]
$V13:43:46.160 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
$S13:43:46.161 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
$=================
$ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
$5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
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$:Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
$6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
$J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
$;        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
$F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
$O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
$O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
$P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
$J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
$0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
$�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
$2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
$
$@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
$= (AngelaChristmas1) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 at 02:43:27
$L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
$
$2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
$�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
$x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
$
$
$L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
$
$
$
%]13:43:46.161 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [2802] bytes
%�13:43:46.162 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Sun Dec 16 02:02:14 2001
%ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
%5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
%GReceived: (qmail 96687 invoked by uid 500); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:13 -0000
%AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
%Precedence: bulk
%"Reply-To: apache-bugdb@apache.org
%1list-help: <mailto:apache-bugdb-help@apache.org>
%?list-unsubscribe: <mailto:apache-bugdb-unsubscribe@apache.org>
%,list-post: <mailto:apache-bugdb@apache.org>
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%IReceived: (qmail 96662 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
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%"Received: (from nobody@localhost)
%5	by srv011.freehosting.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01178;
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%&Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
%:Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
%6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
%J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
%;        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
%F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
%O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
%O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
%P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
%J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
%0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
%�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
%2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
%
%@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
%= (AngelaChristmas1) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 at 02:43:27
%L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
%
%2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
%�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
%x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
%
%
%L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
%
%
%]
%V13:43:46.162 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
%S13:43:46.162 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
%=================
%ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
%5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
%GReceived: (qmail 96687 invoked by uid 500); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:13 -0000
%AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
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%"Reply-To: apache-bugdb@apache.org
%1list-help: <mailto:apache-bugdb-help@apache.org>
%?list-unsubscribe: <mailto:apache-bugdb-unsubscribe@apache.org>
%,list-post: <mailto:apache-bugdb@apache.org>
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%IReceived: (qmail 96662 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
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%&Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
%:Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
%6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
%J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
%;        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
%F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
%O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
%O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
%P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
%J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
%0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
%�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
%2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
%
%@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
%= (AngelaChristmas1) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 at 02:43:27
%L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
%
%2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
%�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
%x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
%
%
%L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
%
%
%
&]13:43:46.163 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [2802] bytes
&�13:43:46.163 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Sun Dec 16 02:02:14 2001
&ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
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&GReceived: (qmail 96687 invoked by uid 500); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:13 -0000
&AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
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&1list-help: <mailto:apache-bugdb-help@apache.org>
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&IReceived: (qmail 96662 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
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&5	by srv011.freehosting.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01178;
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&&Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
&:Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
&6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
&J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
&;        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
&F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
&O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
&O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
&P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
&J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
&0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
&�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
&2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
&
&@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
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&L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
&
&2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
&�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
&x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
&
&
&L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
&
&
&]
&V13:43:46.163 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
&S13:43:46.163 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
&=================
&ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
&5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
&GReceived: (qmail 96687 invoked by uid 500); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:13 -0000
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&&Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
&:Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
&6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
&J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
&;        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
&F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
&O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
&O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
&P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
&J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
&0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
&�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
&2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
&
&@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
&= (AngelaChristmas1) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 at 02:43:27
&L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
&
&2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
&�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
&x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
&
&
&L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
&
&
&
']13:43:46.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [2802] bytes
'�13:43:46.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Sun Dec 16 02:02:14 2001
'ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
'5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
'GReceived: (qmail 96687 invoked by uid 500); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:13 -0000
'AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
'Precedence: bulk
'"Reply-To: apache-bugdb@apache.org
'1list-help: <mailto:apache-bugdb-help@apache.org>
'?list-unsubscribe: <mailto:apache-bugdb-unsubscribe@apache.org>
',list-post: <mailto:apache-bugdb@apache.org>
'3Delivered-To: mailing list apache-bugdb@apache.org
'IReceived: (qmail 96662 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
'DReceived: from unknown (HELO srv011.freehosting.nl) (212.72.51.206)
'?  by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
'"Received: (from nobody@localhost)
'5	by srv011.freehosting.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01178;
'!	Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
'&Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
':Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
'6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
'J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
';        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
'F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
'O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
'O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
'P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
'J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
'0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
'�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
'2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
'
'@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
'= (AngelaChristmas1) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 at 02:43:27
'L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
'
'2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
'�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
'x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
'
'
'L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
'
'
']
'V13:43:46.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
'�13:43:46.164 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
'�13:43:46.165 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.store.MemoryStore - Initialized net.sf.ehcache.store.NotifyingMemoryStore for mstor.mbox.-972594103
'a13:43:46.165 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.Cache - Initialised cache: mstor.mbox.-972594103
'�13:43:46.165 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.config.ConfigurationHelper - CacheDecoratorFactory not configured for defaultCache. Skipping for 'mstor.mbox.-972594103'.
'�13:43:46.165 [Test worker] DEBUG net.sf.ehcache.CacheManager - Attempting to create an existing singleton. Existing singleton returned.
'S13:43:46.165 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFileTest - Message [0]
'=================
'ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
'5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
'GReceived: (qmail 96687 invoked by uid 500); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:13 -0000
'AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
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'"Reply-To: apache-bugdb@apache.org
'1list-help: <mailto:apache-bugdb-help@apache.org>
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',list-post: <mailto:apache-bugdb@apache.org>
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'"Received: (from nobody@localhost)
'5	by srv011.freehosting.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01178;
'!	Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
'&Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
':Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
'6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
'J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
';        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
'F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
'O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
'O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
'P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
'J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
'0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
'�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
'2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
'
'@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
'= (AngelaChristmas1) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 at 02:43:27
'L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
'
'2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
'�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
'x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
'
'
'L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
'
'
'
(]13:43:46.166 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [2802] bytes
(�13:43:46.166 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Sun Dec 16 02:02:14 2001
(ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
(5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
(GReceived: (qmail 96687 invoked by uid 500); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:13 -0000
(AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
(Precedence: bulk
("Reply-To: apache-bugdb@apache.org
(1list-help: <mailto:apache-bugdb-help@apache.org>
(?list-unsubscribe: <mailto:apache-bugdb-unsubscribe@apache.org>
(,list-post: <mailto:apache-bugdb@apache.org>
(3Delivered-To: mailing list apache-bugdb@apache.org
(IReceived: (qmail 96662 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
(DReceived: from unknown (HELO srv011.freehosting.nl) (212.72.51.206)
(?  by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
("Received: (from nobody@localhost)
(5	by srv011.freehosting.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01178;
(!	Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
(&Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
(:Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
(6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
(J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
(;        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
(F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
(O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
(O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
(P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
(J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
(0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
(�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
(2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
(
(@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
(= (AngelaChristmas1) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 at 02:43:27
(L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(
(2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
(�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
(x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
(
(
(L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
(
(
(]
(V13:43:46.166 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
)]13:43:46.167 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [2802] bytes
)�13:43:46.167 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Sun Dec 16 02:02:14 2001
)ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
)5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
)GReceived: (qmail 96687 invoked by uid 500); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:13 -0000
)AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
)Precedence: bulk
)"Reply-To: apache-bugdb@apache.org
)1list-help: <mailto:apache-bugdb-help@apache.org>
)?list-unsubscribe: <mailto:apache-bugdb-unsubscribe@apache.org>
),list-post: <mailto:apache-bugdb@apache.org>
)3Delivered-To: mailing list apache-bugdb@apache.org
)IReceived: (qmail 96662 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
)DReceived: from unknown (HELO srv011.freehosting.nl) (212.72.51.206)
)?  by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
)"Received: (from nobody@localhost)
)5	by srv011.freehosting.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01178;
)!	Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
)&Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
):Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
)6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
)J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
);        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
)F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
)O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
)O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
)P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
)J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
)0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
)�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
)2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
)
)@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
)= (AngelaChristmas1) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 at 02:43:27
)L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
)
)2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
)�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
)x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
)
)
)L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
)
)
)]
)V13:43:46.167 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
*]13:43:46.168 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Channel size [2802] bytes
*�13:43:46.168 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Buffer [From apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org Sun Dec 16 02:02:14 2001
*ZReturn-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
*5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
*GReceived: (qmail 96687 invoked by uid 500); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:13 -0000
*AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
*Precedence: bulk
*"Reply-To: apache-bugdb@apache.org
*1list-help: <mailto:apache-bugdb-help@apache.org>
*?list-unsubscribe: <mailto:apache-bugdb-unsubscribe@apache.org>
*,list-post: <mailto:apache-bugdb@apache.org>
*3Delivered-To: mailing list apache-bugdb@apache.org
*IReceived: (qmail 96662 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
*DReceived: from unknown (HELO srv011.freehosting.nl) (212.72.51.206)
*?  by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
*"Received: (from nobody@localhost)
*5	by srv011.freehosting.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01178;
*!	Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
*&Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
*:Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
*6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
*J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
*;        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
*F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
*O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
*O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
*P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
*J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
*0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
*�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
*2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
*
*@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
*= (AngelaChristmas1) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 at 02:43:27
*L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
*2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
*�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
*x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
*
*
*L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
*
*]
*V13:43:46.168 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Found match at [0]
*�13:43:46.169 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - Appending message [Return-Path: <apache-bugdb-return-9360-apmail-apache-bugdb-archive=apache.org@apache.org>
*5Delivered-To: apmail-apache-bugdb-archive@apache.org
*GReceived: (qmail 96687 invoked by uid 500); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:13 -0000
*AMailing-List: contact apache-bugdb-help@apache.org; run by ezmlm
*Precedence: bulk
*"Reply-To: apache-bugdb@apache.org
*1list-help: <mailto:apache-bugdb-help@apache.org>
*?list-unsubscribe: <mailto:apache-bugdb-unsubscribe@apache.org>
*,list-post: <mailto:apache-bugdb@apache.org>
*3Delivered-To: mailing list apache-bugdb@apache.org
*IReceived: (qmail 96662 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
*DReceived: from unknown (HELO srv011.freehosting.nl) (212.72.51.206)
*?  by daedalus.apache.org with SMTP; 16 Dec 2001 02:02:12 -0000
*"Received: (from nobody@localhost)
*5	by srv011.freehosting.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA01178;
*!	Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
*&Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 02:43:28 +0100
*:Message-Id: <200112160143.CAA01178@srv011.freehosting.nl>
*6To: anfy@yahoogroups.com, anfy-owner@yahoogroups.com,
*J        anfy-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, anfy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com,
*;        angelflightamerica@erols.com, angustw@prodigy.net,
*F        animation-on@mail-list.com, anita@eimi.com, anitaz@erols.com,
*O        anjou.alice@tbs-sct.gc.ca, anjsales@anfiteatro.it, anon@h2.sch.bme.hu,
*O        antartikus@mandic.com.br, antiqs@earthlink.net, antispam@bitsmart.com,
*P        antispammer@earthling.net, antrobertson@hotmail.com, apache@apache.org,
*J        apache-bugdb@apache.org, apbugs@apache.org, Bulk.Mailings@aol.com
*0From: AngelaChristmas1@srv011.freehosting.nl ()
*�Subject: where ya been kiddo?                                                            </html><font ptsize=1><body link=#fefefe><font color=#fefefe>
*2X-Spam-Rating: daedalus.apache.org 1.6.2 0/1000/N
*
*@Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted by
*= (AngelaChristmas1) on Sunday, December 16, 2001 at 02:43:27
*L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
*2msg: <body link=#0000FF><br><font color=#FA58CA>
*�Hey Brian! Its Angela, Remember how we used to video chat with netmeeting?  Well check this place out, its much better and its FREE!  My Username on there is ANGIESWTS if you want to come chat with me.  If you havent gotten your webcam hooked up yet you can still come watch me talk over the microphone.  Anyway, I'll see you later sexy.  That webpage is http://4cam.da.ru please come chat, i've missed you! it will be fun, I promise :o) hehe  Ok, bye bye for now.
*x<br><br>Luv,<br>Angela<Br><Br><Br><Br><br><br><Br>848469198nkzaqtdhbrppor848469198nkzaqtdhbrppornkzaqtdhbrppor848469198
*
*
*L---------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
*
*]
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+,Message-ID: <333DB463.23F1@medicineman.com>
+&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
+-From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
+Reply-To: marklyon@gmail.com
+'Organization: Mark Lyon's Gmail Loader
+"X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Win95; I)
+MIME-Version: 1.0
+To: GML User
+Subject: Test Message 1
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+
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+
+<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="JavaScript">
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+y<H3><font color="#668266" face="Helvetica, Arial">Airius Airway's 401k Contributions Worksheet (Sample Only)</font></H3>
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+;          <I><FONT SIZE="-1">After specifying your monthly
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+=================
+X-Mozilla-Status: a000
+,Message-ID: <333DB463.23F1@medicineman.com>
+&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
+-From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
+Reply-To: marklyon@gmail.com
+'Organization: Mark Lyon's Gmail Loader
+"X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Win95; I)
+MIME-Version: 1.0
+To: GML User
+Subject: Test Message 1
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+
</SCRIPT>
+</HEAD>
+<BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
+y<H3><font color="#668266" face="Helvetica, Arial">Airius Airway's 401k Contributions Worksheet (Sample Only)</font></H3>
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+�   theMsg="This is an example of how your company can use the rich HTML e-mail capabilities of Messenger to process work-flow applications. If this were an actual application your 401-k selections could be automatically processed."
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</script>
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+------------2E29447026B50--
+ From - Mon Jun 02 13:00:00 1997
+X-Mozilla-Status: c000
+)Message-ID: <3389F638.70799264@user.com>
+&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 13:00:00 -0800
+)From: Airius Partner <info@netscape.com>
+Reply-To: info@netscape.com
+MX-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0
+"X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Win95; I)
+MIME-Version: 1.0
+To: Netscape Messenger User
+Subject: Airius Memorandum
+X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
+QContent-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457"
+
+
+'--------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457
+*Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
+
+<HTML>
+(<BODY TEXT="#000000" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
+|<IMG SRC="cid:part1.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=70 WIDTH=450 ALIGN=BOTTOM><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>
+$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
+<TR>
+I<TD COLSPAN="2"><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>TO: All Royal
+FAirways Sales and Reservations Specialists.&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
+M<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>FR: Airius Aircraft - Partner
+(Marketing Division.</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
+<BR>
+<HR WIDTH="100%">&nbsp;
+J<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft is pleased
+Lto announce that 6 state-of-the-art, Airius 4000 intercontinental airliners
+Nwere delivered to the Royal maintenance hanger at San Francisco International
+JAirport. The 4000s feature several passenger comfort components requested
+1by Royal Airways:&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+	</TABLE>
+
+<TABLE WIDTH="425" >
+<TR>
+�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+L<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Tan leather seats
+;in First Class and Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+G<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Full feature
+@communication panels in Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+H<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>On-board food
+Hprep galley for First and Business class meals</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+	</TABLE>
+
+$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
+<TR>
+<TD COLSPAN="2">
+<TABLE BORDER >
+<TR>
+Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">plane</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">class</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+\<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">capacity</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+D<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">1 - "Enterprise"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">2 - "Synergy"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">3 - "Henry V"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">296</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4 - "William"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">295</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">5 - "Senator"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">352</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">6 - "Mercury"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-D</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">320</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+	</TABLE>
+K<FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>For a full description of these
+Gand additional features of the 4000 aircraft, please visit our partner
+Xsection of the <A HREF="http://home.netscape.com/comprod/at_work/vip/index.html">Airius
+-4000 intranet.</A>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
+
+L<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>We wish you continued success
+Hin the safe, comfortable and rapid delivery of your passengers to their
+-many destinations!&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
+
+Y<P><I><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft</FONT></FONT></I>&nbsp;
+]<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1><I><A HREF="mailto:info@netscape.com">Partner
+:Marketing Division</A></I>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+	</TABLE>
+
+</BODY>
+</HTML>
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+,Message-ID: <333DB463.23F1@medicineman.com>
+&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
+-From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
+Reply-To: marklyon@gmail.com
+'Organization: Mark Lyon's Gmail Loader
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+To: GML User
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+�detailText = new Array("Alpha Industrial Indices invests in the industrial sectors of the three major indices. Performance is up, with returns improving in each of the last three years.",
+�                   "BlueNote Equities is a specialty fund, investing mainly in music industry stocks. The fund has outperformed nearly every index in the past three years.",
+�                   "The Equitas Global Growth fund invests in emerging markets around the world. Japan, Germany and Italy are areas of concentration",
+�                   "Trilogy Equity Fund seeks rapid growth through investments in three areas: High Tech, Entertainment,and Health Care stocks.",
+�                   "Trilogy Socially Conscious Fund buys companies with a record of giving. Ignored are companies doing business with governments with human rights violations.");
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+function doForm()
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+�   theMsg="This is an example of how your company can use the rich HTML e-mail capabilities of Messenger to process work-flow applications. If this were an actual application your 401-k selections could be automatically processed."
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+=         <H5><FONT COLOR="#668266">Employee Name</FONT></H5>
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+;          <I><FONT SIZE="-1">After specifying your monthly
+C         contribution, (You may contribute to as many funds as you
+C         like) submit this form. You will receive email confirming
+D         your choices. Airius Contributes $0.50 for every $1.00 you
+B         contribute. All dollars you contribute are deducted from
+/         your salary before taxes. </FONT></I>
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+------------2E29447026B50--
+ From - Mon Jun 02 13:00:00 1997
+X-Mozilla-Status: c000
+)Message-ID: <3389F638.70799264@user.com>
+&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 13:00:00 -0800
+)From: Airius Partner <info@netscape.com>
+Reply-To: info@netscape.com
+MX-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0
+"X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Win95; I)
+MIME-Version: 1.0
+To: Netscape Messenger User
+Subject: Airius Memorandum
+X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
+QContent-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457"
+
+
+'--------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457
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+
+<HTML>
+(<BODY TEXT="#000000" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
+|<IMG SRC="cid:part1.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=70 WIDTH=450 ALIGN=BOTTOM><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>
+$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
+<TR>
+I<TD COLSPAN="2"><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>TO: All Royal
+FAirways Sales and Reservations Specialists.&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
+M<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>FR: Airius Aircraft - Partner
+(Marketing Division.</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
+<BR>
+<HR WIDTH="100%">&nbsp;
+J<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft is pleased
+Lto announce that 6 state-of-the-art, Airius 4000 intercontinental airliners
+Nwere delivered to the Royal maintenance hanger at San Francisco International
+JAirport. The 4000s feature several passenger comfort components requested
+1by Royal Airways:&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+	</TABLE>
+
+<TABLE WIDTH="425" >
+<TR>
+�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+L<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Tan leather seats
+;in First Class and Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+G<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Full feature
+@communication panels in Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+H<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>On-board food
+Hprep galley for First and Business class meals</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+	</TABLE>
+
+$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
+<TR>
+<TD COLSPAN="2">
+<TABLE BORDER >
+<TR>
+Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">plane</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">class</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+\<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">capacity</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+D<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">1 - "Enterprise"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">2 - "Synergy"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">3 - "Henry V"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">296</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4 - "William"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">295</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">5 - "Senator"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">352</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+
+<TR>
+A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">6 - "Mercury"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-D</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+
+7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">320</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+	</TABLE>
+K<FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>For a full description of these
+Gand additional features of the 4000 aircraft, please visit our partner
+Xsection of the <A HREF="http://home.netscape.com/comprod/at_work/vip/index.html">Airius
+-4000 intranet.</A>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
+
+L<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>We wish you continued success
+Hin the safe, comfortable and rapid delivery of your passengers to their
+-many destinations!&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
+
+Y<P><I><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft</FONT></FONT></I>&nbsp;
+]<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1><I><A HREF="mailto:info@netscape.com">Partner
+:Marketing Division</A></I>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
+</TR>
+	</TABLE>
+
+</BODY>
+</HTML>
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,&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
,-From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
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,=================
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,,Message-ID: <333DB463.23F1@medicineman.com>
,&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
,-From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
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, From - Mon Jun 02 13:00:00 1997
,X-Mozilla-Status: c000
,)Message-ID: <3389F638.70799264@user.com>
,&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 13:00:00 -0800
,)From: Airius Partner <info@netscape.com>
,Reply-To: info@netscape.com
,MX-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0
,"X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Win95; I)
,MIME-Version: 1.0
,To: Netscape Messenger User
,Subject: Airius Memorandum
,X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
,QContent-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457"
,
,
,'--------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457
,*Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
, Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
,
,<HTML>
,(<BODY TEXT="#000000" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
,|<IMG SRC="cid:part1.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=70 WIDTH=450 ALIGN=BOTTOM><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>
,$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
,<TR>
,I<TD COLSPAN="2"><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>TO: All Royal
,FAirways Sales and Reservations Specialists.&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
,M<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>FR: Airius Aircraft - Partner
,(Marketing Division.</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
,<BR>
,<HR WIDTH="100%">&nbsp;
,J<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft is pleased
,Lto announce that 6 state-of-the-art, Airius 4000 intercontinental airliners
,Nwere delivered to the Royal maintenance hanger at San Francisco International
,JAirport. The 4000s feature several passenger comfort components requested
,1by Royal Airways:&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,	</TABLE>
,
,<TABLE WIDTH="425" >
,<TR>
,�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,L<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Tan leather seats
,;in First Class and Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,G<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Full feature
,@communication panels in Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,H<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>On-board food
,Hprep galley for First and Business class meals</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,	</TABLE>
,
,$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
,<TR>
,<TD COLSPAN="2">
,<TABLE BORDER >
,<TR>
,Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">plane</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">class</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,\<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">capacity</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,D<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">1 - "Enterprise"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">2 - "Synergy"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">3 - "Henry V"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">296</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4 - "William"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">295</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">5 - "Senator"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">352</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">6 - "Mercury"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-D</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">320</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,	</TABLE>
,K<FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>For a full description of these
,Gand additional features of the 4000 aircraft, please visit our partner
,Xsection of the <A HREF="http://home.netscape.com/comprod/at_work/vip/index.html">Airius
,-4000 intranet.</A>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
,
,L<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>We wish you continued success
,Hin the safe, comfortable and rapid delivery of your passengers to their
,-many destinations!&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
,
,Y<P><I><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft</FONT></FONT></I>&nbsp;
,]<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1><I><A HREF="mailto:info@netscape.com">Partner
,:Marketing Division</A></I>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,	</TABLE>
,
,</BODY>
,</HTML>
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,&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
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,�detailText = new Array("Alpha Industrial Indices invests in the industrial sectors of the three major indices. Performance is up, with returns improving in each of the last three years.",
,�                   "BlueNote Equities is a specialty fund, investing mainly in music industry stocks. The fund has outperformed nearly every index in the past three years.",
,�                   "The Equitas Global Growth fund invests in emerging markets around the world. Japan, Germany and Italy are areas of concentration",
,�                   "Trilogy Equity Fund seeks rapid growth through investments in three areas: High Tech, Entertainment,and Health Care stocks.",
,�                   "Trilogy Socially Conscious Fund buys companies with a record of giving. Ignored are companies doing business with governments with human rights violations.");
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,;          <I><FONT SIZE="-1">After specifying your monthly
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,------------2E29447026B50--
, From - Mon Jun 02 13:00:00 1997
,X-Mozilla-Status: c000
,)Message-ID: <3389F638.70799264@user.com>
,&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 13:00:00 -0800
,)From: Airius Partner <info@netscape.com>
,Reply-To: info@netscape.com
,MX-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0
,"X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Win95; I)
,MIME-Version: 1.0
,To: Netscape Messenger User
,Subject: Airius Memorandum
,X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
,QContent-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457"
,
,
,'--------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457
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,
,<HTML>
,(<BODY TEXT="#000000" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
,|<IMG SRC="cid:part1.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=70 WIDTH=450 ALIGN=BOTTOM><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>
,$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
,<TR>
,I<TD COLSPAN="2"><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>TO: All Royal
,FAirways Sales and Reservations Specialists.&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
,M<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>FR: Airius Aircraft - Partner
,(Marketing Division.</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
,<BR>
,<HR WIDTH="100%">&nbsp;
,J<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft is pleased
,Lto announce that 6 state-of-the-art, Airius 4000 intercontinental airliners
,Nwere delivered to the Royal maintenance hanger at San Francisco International
,JAirport. The 4000s feature several passenger comfort components requested
,1by Royal Airways:&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,	</TABLE>
,
,<TABLE WIDTH="425" >
,<TR>
,�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,L<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Tan leather seats
,;in First Class and Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,G<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Full feature
,@communication panels in Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,H<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>On-board food
,Hprep galley for First and Business class meals</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,	</TABLE>
,
,$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
,<TR>
,<TD COLSPAN="2">
,<TABLE BORDER >
,<TR>
,Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">plane</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">class</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,\<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">capacity</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,D<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">1 - "Enterprise"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">2 - "Synergy"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">3 - "Henry V"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">296</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4 - "William"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">295</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">5 - "Senator"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">352</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,
,<TR>
,A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">6 - "Mercury"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-D</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,
,7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">320</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,	</TABLE>
,K<FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>For a full description of these
,Gand additional features of the 4000 aircraft, please visit our partner
,Xsection of the <A HREF="http://home.netscape.com/comprod/at_work/vip/index.html">Airius
,-4000 intranet.</A>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
,
,L<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>We wish you continued success
,Hin the safe, comfortable and rapid delivery of your passengers to their
,-many destinations!&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
,
,Y<P><I><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft</FONT></FONT></I>&nbsp;
,]<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1><I><A HREF="mailto:info@netscape.com">Partner
,:Marketing Division</A></I>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
,</TR>
,	</TABLE>
,
,</BODY>
,</HTML>
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-&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
--From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
-Reply-To: marklyon@gmail.com
-'Organization: Mark Lyon's Gmail Loader
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-=================
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-&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
--From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
-Reply-To: marklyon@gmail.com
-'Organization: Mark Lyon's Gmail Loader
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- From - Mon Jun 02 13:00:00 1997
-X-Mozilla-Status: c000
-)Message-ID: <3389F638.70799264@user.com>
-&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 13:00:00 -0800
-)From: Airius Partner <info@netscape.com>
-Reply-To: info@netscape.com
-MX-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0
-"X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Win95; I)
-MIME-Version: 1.0
-To: Netscape Messenger User
-Subject: Airius Memorandum
-X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
-QContent-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457"
-
-
-'--------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457
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-
-<HTML>
-(<BODY TEXT="#000000" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
-|<IMG SRC="cid:part1.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=70 WIDTH=450 ALIGN=BOTTOM><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>
-$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
-<TR>
-I<TD COLSPAN="2"><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>TO: All Royal
-FAirways Sales and Reservations Specialists.&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
-M<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>FR: Airius Aircraft - Partner
-(Marketing Division.</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
-<BR>
-<HR WIDTH="100%">&nbsp;
-J<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft is pleased
-Lto announce that 6 state-of-the-art, Airius 4000 intercontinental airliners
-Nwere delivered to the Royal maintenance hanger at San Francisco International
-JAirport. The 4000s feature several passenger comfort components requested
-1by Royal Airways:&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-	</TABLE>
-
-<TABLE WIDTH="425" >
-<TR>
-�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-L<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Tan leather seats
-;in First Class and Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-G<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Full feature
-@communication panels in Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-H<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>On-board food
-Hprep galley for First and Business class meals</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-	</TABLE>
-
-$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
-<TR>
-<TD COLSPAN="2">
-<TABLE BORDER >
-<TR>
-Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">plane</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">class</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-\<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">capacity</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-D<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">1 - "Enterprise"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">2 - "Synergy"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">3 - "Henry V"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">296</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4 - "William"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">295</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">5 - "Senator"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">352</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">6 - "Mercury"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-D</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">320</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-	</TABLE>
-K<FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>For a full description of these
-Gand additional features of the 4000 aircraft, please visit our partner
-Xsection of the <A HREF="http://home.netscape.com/comprod/at_work/vip/index.html">Airius
--4000 intranet.</A>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
-
-L<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>We wish you continued success
-Hin the safe, comfortable and rapid delivery of your passengers to their
--many destinations!&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
-
-Y<P><I><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft</FONT></FONT></I>&nbsp;
-]<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1><I><A HREF="mailto:info@netscape.com">Partner
-:Marketing Division</A></I>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-	</TABLE>
-
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-</HTML>
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-=================
-X-Mozilla-Status: a000
-,Message-ID: <333DB463.23F1@medicineman.com>
-&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
--From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
-Reply-To: marklyon@gmail.com
-'Organization: Mark Lyon's Gmail Loader
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-To: GML User
-Subject: Test Message 2
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-�detailText = new Array("Alpha Industrial Indices invests in the industrial sectors of the three major indices. Performance is up, with returns improving in each of the last three years.",
-�                   "BlueNote Equities is a specialty fund, investing mainly in music industry stocks. The fund has outperformed nearly every index in the past three years.",
-�                   "The Equitas Global Growth fund invests in emerging markets around the world. Japan, Germany and Italy are areas of concentration",
-�                   "Trilogy Equity Fund seeks rapid growth through investments in three areas: High Tech, Entertainment,and Health Care stocks.",
-�                   "Trilogy Socially Conscious Fund buys companies with a record of giving. Ignored are companies doing business with governments with human rights violations.");
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-y<H3><font color="#668266" face="Helvetica, Arial">Airius Airway's 401k Contributions Worksheet (Sample Only)</font></H3>
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-�   theMsg="This is an example of how your company can use the rich HTML e-mail capabilities of Messenger to process work-flow applications. If this were an actual application your 401-k selections could be automatically processed."
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-=         <H5><FONT COLOR="#668266">Employee Name</FONT></H5>
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-;          <I><FONT SIZE="-1">After specifying your monthly
-C         contribution, (You may contribute to as many funds as you
-C         like) submit this form. You will receive email confirming
-D         your choices. Airius Contributes $0.50 for every $1.00 you
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-/         your salary before taxes. </FONT></I>
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- From - Mon Jun 02 13:00:00 1997
-X-Mozilla-Status: c000
-)Message-ID: <3389F638.70799264@user.com>
-&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 13:00:00 -0800
-)From: Airius Partner <info@netscape.com>
-Reply-To: info@netscape.com
-MX-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0
-"X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Win95; I)
-MIME-Version: 1.0
-To: Netscape Messenger User
-Subject: Airius Memorandum
-X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
-QContent-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457"
-
-
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-
-<HTML>
-(<BODY TEXT="#000000" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
-|<IMG SRC="cid:part1.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=70 WIDTH=450 ALIGN=BOTTOM><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>
-$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
-<TR>
-I<TD COLSPAN="2"><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>TO: All Royal
-FAirways Sales and Reservations Specialists.&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
-M<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>FR: Airius Aircraft - Partner
-(Marketing Division.</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
-<BR>
-<HR WIDTH="100%">&nbsp;
-J<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft is pleased
-Lto announce that 6 state-of-the-art, Airius 4000 intercontinental airliners
-Nwere delivered to the Royal maintenance hanger at San Francisco International
-JAirport. The 4000s feature several passenger comfort components requested
-1by Royal Airways:&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-	</TABLE>
-
-<TABLE WIDTH="425" >
-<TR>
-�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-L<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Tan leather seats
-;in First Class and Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-G<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Full feature
-@communication panels in Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-H<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>On-board food
-Hprep galley for First and Business class meals</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-	</TABLE>
-
-$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
-<TR>
-<TD COLSPAN="2">
-<TABLE BORDER >
-<TR>
-Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">plane</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">class</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-\<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">capacity</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-D<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">1 - "Enterprise"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">2 - "Synergy"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">3 - "Henry V"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">296</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4 - "William"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">295</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">5 - "Senator"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">352</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-
-<TR>
-A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">6 - "Mercury"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-D</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-
-7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">320</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-	</TABLE>
-K<FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>For a full description of these
-Gand additional features of the 4000 aircraft, please visit our partner
-Xsection of the <A HREF="http://home.netscape.com/comprod/at_work/vip/index.html">Airius
--4000 intranet.</A>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
-
-L<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>We wish you continued success
-Hin the safe, comfortable and rapid delivery of your passengers to their
--many destinations!&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
-
-Y<P><I><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft</FONT></FONT></I>&nbsp;
-]<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1><I><A HREF="mailto:info@netscape.com">Partner
-:Marketing Division</A></I>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
-</TR>
-	</TABLE>
-
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.&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
.-From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
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.=================
.X-Mozilla-Status: a000
.,Message-ID: <333DB463.23F1@medicineman.com>
.&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
.-From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
.Reply-To: marklyon@gmail.com
.'Organization: Mark Lyon's Gmail Loader
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.To: GML User
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.<HEAD>
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.<BODY BGCOLOR="#ffffff">
.y<H3><font color="#668266" face="Helvetica, Arial">Airius Airway's 401k Contributions Worksheet (Sample Only)</font></H3>
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. From - Mon Jun 02 13:00:00 1997
.X-Mozilla-Status: c000
.)Message-ID: <3389F638.70799264@user.com>
.&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 13:00:00 -0800
.)From: Airius Partner <info@netscape.com>
.Reply-To: info@netscape.com
.MX-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0
."X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Win95; I)
.MIME-Version: 1.0
.To: Netscape Messenger User
.Subject: Airius Memorandum
.X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
.QContent-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457"
.
.
.'--------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457
.*Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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.
.<HTML>
.(<BODY TEXT="#000000" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
.|<IMG SRC="cid:part1.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=70 WIDTH=450 ALIGN=BOTTOM><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>
.$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
.<TR>
.I<TD COLSPAN="2"><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>TO: All Royal
.FAirways Sales and Reservations Specialists.&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
.M<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>FR: Airius Aircraft - Partner
.(Marketing Division.</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
.<BR>
.<HR WIDTH="100%">&nbsp;
.J<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft is pleased
.Lto announce that 6 state-of-the-art, Airius 4000 intercontinental airliners
.Nwere delivered to the Royal maintenance hanger at San Francisco International
.JAirport. The 4000s feature several passenger comfort components requested
.1by Royal Airways:&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.	</TABLE>
.
.<TABLE WIDTH="425" >
.<TR>
.�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.L<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Tan leather seats
.;in First Class and Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.G<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Full feature
.@communication panels in Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.H<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>On-board food
.Hprep galley for First and Business class meals</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.	</TABLE>
.
.$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
.<TR>
.<TD COLSPAN="2">
.<TABLE BORDER >
.<TR>
.Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">plane</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">class</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.\<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">capacity</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.D<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">1 - "Enterprise"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">2 - "Synergy"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">3 - "Henry V"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">296</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4 - "William"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">295</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">5 - "Senator"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">352</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">6 - "Mercury"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-D</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">320</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.	</TABLE>
.K<FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>For a full description of these
.Gand additional features of the 4000 aircraft, please visit our partner
.Xsection of the <A HREF="http://home.netscape.com/comprod/at_work/vip/index.html">Airius
.-4000 intranet.</A>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
.
.L<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>We wish you continued success
.Hin the safe, comfortable and rapid delivery of your passengers to their
.-many destinations!&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
.
.Y<P><I><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft</FONT></FONT></I>&nbsp;
.]<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1><I><A HREF="mailto:info@netscape.com">Partner
.:Marketing Division</A></I>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.	</TABLE>
.
.</BODY>
.</HTML>
.
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.&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
.-From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
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.�detailText = new Array("Alpha Industrial Indices invests in the industrial sectors of the three major indices. Performance is up, with returns improving in each of the last three years.",
.�                   "BlueNote Equities is a specialty fund, investing mainly in music industry stocks. The fund has outperformed nearly every index in the past three years.",
.�                   "The Equitas Global Growth fund invests in emerging markets around the world. Japan, Germany and Italy are areas of concentration",
.�                   "Trilogy Equity Fund seeks rapid growth through investments in three areas: High Tech, Entertainment,and Health Care stocks.",
.�                   "Trilogy Socially Conscious Fund buys companies with a record of giving. Ignored are companies doing business with governments with human rights violations.");
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.;          <I><FONT SIZE="-1">After specifying your monthly
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. From - Mon Jun 02 13:00:00 1997
.X-Mozilla-Status: c000
.)Message-ID: <3389F638.70799264@user.com>
.&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 13:00:00 -0800
.)From: Airius Partner <info@netscape.com>
.Reply-To: info@netscape.com
.MX-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0
."X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Win95; I)
.MIME-Version: 1.0
.To: Netscape Messenger User
.Subject: Airius Memorandum
.X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
.QContent-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457"
.
.
.'--------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457
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.
.<HTML>
.(<BODY TEXT="#000000" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
.|<IMG SRC="cid:part1.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=70 WIDTH=450 ALIGN=BOTTOM><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>
.$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
.<TR>
.I<TD COLSPAN="2"><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>TO: All Royal
.FAirways Sales and Reservations Specialists.&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
.M<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>FR: Airius Aircraft - Partner
.(Marketing Division.</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
.<BR>
.<HR WIDTH="100%">&nbsp;
.J<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft is pleased
.Lto announce that 6 state-of-the-art, Airius 4000 intercontinental airliners
.Nwere delivered to the Royal maintenance hanger at San Francisco International
.JAirport. The 4000s feature several passenger comfort components requested
.1by Royal Airways:&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.	</TABLE>
.
.<TABLE WIDTH="425" >
.<TR>
.�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.L<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Tan leather seats
.;in First Class and Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.G<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Full feature
.@communication panels in Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.H<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>On-board food
.Hprep galley for First and Business class meals</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.	</TABLE>
.
.$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
.<TR>
.<TD COLSPAN="2">
.<TABLE BORDER >
.<TR>
.Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">plane</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">class</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.\<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">capacity</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.D<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">1 - "Enterprise"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">2 - "Synergy"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">3 - "Henry V"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">296</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4 - "William"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">295</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">5 - "Senator"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">352</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.
.<TR>
.A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">6 - "Mercury"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-D</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.
.7<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">320</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.	</TABLE>
.K<FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>For a full description of these
.Gand additional features of the 4000 aircraft, please visit our partner
.Xsection of the <A HREF="http://home.netscape.com/comprod/at_work/vip/index.html">Airius
.-4000 intranet.</A>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
.
.L<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>We wish you continued success
.Hin the safe, comfortable and rapid delivery of your passengers to their
.-many destinations!&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
.
.Y<P><I><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft</FONT></FONT></I>&nbsp;
.]<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1><I><A HREF="mailto:info@netscape.com">Partner
.:Marketing Division</A></I>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
.</TR>
.	</TABLE>
.
.</BODY>
.</HTML>
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1&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:00:00 -0800
1-From: Mark Lyon Testing <marklyon@gmail.com>
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1;          <I><FONT SIZE="-1">After specifying your monthly
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1y<H3><font color="#668266" face="Helvetica, Arial">Airius Airway's 401k Contributions Worksheet (Sample Only)</font></H3>
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1 From - Mon Jun 02 13:00:00 1997
1X-Mozilla-Status: c000
1)Message-ID: <3389F638.70799264@user.com>
1&Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 13:00:00 -0800
1)From: Airius Partner <info@netscape.com>
1Reply-To: info@netscape.com
1MX-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0
1"X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Win95; I)
1MIME-Version: 1.0
1To: Netscape Messenger User
1Subject: Airius Memorandum
1X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
1QContent-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457"
1
1
1'--------------3D11F2F98F1BE0120D838457
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1<HTML>
1(<BODY TEXT="#000000" BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
1|<IMG SRC="cid:part1.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=70 WIDTH=450 ALIGN=BOTTOM><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>
1$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
1<TR>
1I<TD COLSPAN="2"><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>TO: All Royal
1FAirways Sales and Reservations Specialists.&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
1M<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>FR: Airius Aircraft - Partner
1(Marketing Division.</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
1<BR>
1<HR WIDTH="100%">&nbsp;
1J<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft is pleased
1Lto announce that 6 state-of-the-art, Airius 4000 intercontinental airliners
1Nwere delivered to the Royal maintenance hanger at San Francisco International
1JAirport. The 4000s feature several passenger comfort components requested
11by Royal Airways:&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1	</TABLE>
1
1<TABLE WIDTH="425" >
1<TR>
1�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
1L<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Tan leather seats
1;in First Class and Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1
1<TR>
1�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
1G<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Full feature
1@communication panels in Business Class</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1
1<TR>
1�<TD ALIGN=RIGHT><IMG SRC="cid:part2.3389F638.3FAC59AA@user.com" HEIGHT=17 WIDTH=17><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">&nbsp;</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
1H<TD ALIGN=LEFT><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>On-board food
1Hprep galley for First and Business class meals</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1	</TABLE>
1
1$<TABLE CELLPADDING=10 WIDTH="425" >
1<TR>
1<TD COLSPAN="2">
1<TABLE BORDER >
1<TR>
1Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">plane</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
1
1Y<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">class</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
1
1\<TD ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH="100"><B><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">capacity</FONT></B>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1
1<TR>
1D<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">1 - "Enterprise"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
1:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
17<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1
1<TR>
1A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">2 - "Synergy"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
1:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
17<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">350</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1
1<TR>
1A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">3 - "Henry V"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
1:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
17<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">296</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1
1<TR>
1A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4 - "William"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
1:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-V</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
17<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">295</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1
1<TR>
1A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">5 - "Senator"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
1:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-B</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
17<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">352</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1
1<TR>
1A<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">6 - "Mercury"</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
1:<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">4000-D</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1
17<TD><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica">320</FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1	</TABLE>
1K<FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>For a full description of these
1Gand additional features of the 4000 aircraft, please visit our partner
1Xsection of the <A HREF="http://home.netscape.com/comprod/at_work/vip/index.html">Airius
1-4000 intranet.</A>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
1
1L<P><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>We wish you continued success
1Hin the safe, comfortable and rapid delivery of your passengers to their
1-many destinations!&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;
1
1Y<P><I><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1>Airius Aircraft</FONT></FONT></I>&nbsp;
1]<BR><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE=-1><I><A HREF="mailto:info@netscape.com">Partner
1:Marketing Division</A></I>&nbsp;</FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</TD>
1</TR>
1	</TABLE>
1
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1l13:43:46.272 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MessageAppender - No From_ line found - inserting..
1�13:43:46.274 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Renaming [/tmp/mstor_test/testPurge/samples.mbx/samples.mbx] to [/tmp/samples.mbx.1746186226274]
1�13:43:46.274 [Test worker] DEBUG net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxFile - Renaming [/tmp/samples.mbx.tmp] to [/tmp/mstor_test/testPurge/samples.mbx/samples.mbx]
32\13:43:46.279 [Test worker] INFO net.fortuna.mstor.data.MboxEncoderTest - This is a message 
32
32	>From me
9DP13:43:46.352 [Test worker] INFO net.fortuna.mstor.model.TagsTest - Tag: Friends
9DM13:43:46.352 [Test worker] INFO net.fortuna.mstor.model.TagsTest - Tag: Work
9DO13:43:46.352 [Test worker] INFO net.fortuna.mstor.model.TagsTest - Tag: Family
9DO13:43:46.352 [Test worker] INFO net.fortuna.mstor.model.TagsTest - Tag: Humour